Extinction Rebellion Founder Speaks Out | Aaron Bastani meets Roger Hallam | Downstream

This weeks guest was released from jail a few weeks before the interview. He was held on remand for 109 days after being charged for 'conspiracy to cause a public nuisance' - all for giving a speech. He has been part of some of the most influential activist groups of the last few years including Extinction Rebellion and Just Stop Oil. Now he's out, his message hasn't changed. According to him, we have less than ten years before our political systems collapse due to hundreds of millions of climate refugees.
Aaron Bastani meets Roger Hallam.
To join Roger and Aaron to discuss climate refugees and the solidarity action that will take place in April with 1000s to take to the streets - sign up to this zoom link: us02web.zoom.us/meeting/regis...
Roger's podcast can also be found here: / roger-hallam-2023
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[@markwilliams3174]

Aaron owes Riger Hallam the courtesy of a 2nd interview where he is allowed to communicate his thesis.

[@DeliveringSolutions]

Agree!

[@zeddybear257]

Quite possibly.

[@pathfinderwellcare]

Here...here... agree 💯

[@blokclok]

Constant interruption is ruinous to any listening experience 🙄

[@jdclarke47]

Agreed

[@Bnio]

Aaron's heart is in the right place, but as an interviewer he needs to get out of his own way.

[@ebsolidarity]

1) Aaron.... you're interviewing like a bucking bronco. Really. Calm down. Why couldn't you hear properly what was being explained? 2) What is missing in this discussion is a theory and pathway of evolutionary consciousness. Yes, it's not about carbon. Yes, it's more about engaging and motivating humanity in a theory of change; but that isn't the whole picture. Humanity, as evolving conscious beings, has the opportunity to evolve our way out of the current human condition marked by self destruction. Long story. Leave it there 🪷

[@alexandrabarnes4511]

My thoughts exactly - too much talking and not enough listening. I wanted to hear what Roger had to say, not Aaron telling him what *he* thinks I want to hear.

[@4imagesmore]

Having a massive ego is a terrible obstruction ;)

[@jayarava]

He needs to get out of our way.

[@koenstrobbe8101]

I agree with Bnio here. Aaron constantly got in the way.

[@ichifish]

I never understood the phrase "the intelligencia is the problem" until this interview. Aaron's refusal to stop counting the number of angels on the head of a pin made it clear. Thanks for keeping a level head, Roger, and thanks Downstream for airing this.

[@BrianMartin-ph7pt]

Ask Roger Hallam why there was so much more atmospheric Co2 in the Cretaceous, Jurassic and Triassic periods when the dinosaurs lived. And why the Earth was covered with lush, verdant vegetation. Or why sea and Ocean levels were up to 100 Metres higher? Or why there was so much less atmospheric Co2 in the last desert age, where no plants grew? Or why there is now so much atmospheric Co2 (AKA PLANT FOOD) depletion farmers routinely park diesel generators outside polytunnels filled with crops which only produce half the yield if they are not drowned in diesel fumes for 4 hours a day?

[@amp9672]

God I usually like listening to Aaron but in this interview I am just amazed by how calm and composed Roger managed to stay with the interruptions and almost stupid comments Aaron did. He spoke like it was an intellectual exercice while Roger was talking the truth in a way no one does and frankly that should be heard by every single person in the West if we want a chance to save ourselves, now or never. Very annoying. I guess interviewing must not be an easy task between going in dept yet still making the viewer confortable, thank you so much to Aaron anyway for bringing such a fascinating guest to the public.

[@RugbyPass81]

Aaron did have some relevant points, too. I'd have liked to have seen some more clarity from Roger on certain points. I do agree though, Aaron did try and interject too much and inserted himself into the conversation, rather than letting Roger fully articulate his answers. He was most definitely patient with Aaron on that note. I'll give Aaron one other thing as well though....he has an awesome first name 😁 - I'm not being biased at all.

[@robsomand7073]

Lots of this is almost unlistenable due to high pitched, obstinate interruptions. Hopefully the host listens to this exchange again and takes notes for next time.

[@sarahmurphy-nf4yl]

💯 % agree.

[@ninjabreadgirl]

Agreed completely, Aaron was awful in this interview. I wanted to quit watching a third of the way through. Still might not finish, except I want to hear what Roger has to say (unlike Aaron...)

[@Probabilityislife]

Subscribed to you for your intellectual point of view. Not as a perv, didn't want you thinking this random add was anything else 😂

[@willpkay]

Unfortunately for me, much of this interview just felt like Aaron was waiting to answer, rather than actively listening. Roger spent 10-15 minutes providing an absolutely articulate explanation of why talking about the facts really doesn't matter, only for Aaron to then ask at 30:30 "When [will we go extinct]?". He completely missed the point. This is quite possibly the perfect example of exactly what Roger was trying to explain - that the intellectuals on the left are focused on the wrong thing. Aaron follows, "But our audience is interested, they want to know". No, Aaron, we don't. We want to know who is to blame and how can we change the system. We don't care about the facts any more. Knowing about the facts has done nothing for >50 years.

[@RedSaint83]

You're not entirely wrong for seeing it that way, but I think from Roger's point of view he just wanted to come off as unwavering, not wanting to give compromise any leeway. Because there is none.

[@97SEMTEX]

No we do, I want to know. I want to know the details, I want to hear the science, fine the majority of people don't, but I'm here for specifically that. This guy is right about the messaging being off but then fails to tailor his message for the audience he is with.

[@jordanpatrick9619]

I wanna know. Any claim of substance needs some kind of factual backing for it to be understood and debated. Aaron did a good job of pushing for that in his role as interviewer.

[@willpkay]

@@jordanpatrick9619 I guess the point that Roger Hallam was trying to make is that all the factual backing that you could ever want already exists. It has for decades. It's no good intellectuals on the left just wanting the facts and nor is it any good really giving it to them. They haven't yet done anything sufficient with them.

[@keithflint7243]

@@jordanpatrick9619 Some kind of factual backing? How much more do you need? It's real, it's happening. As MrHallam said, arguing about how long it might all take is pointless. Like Aaron, you seem to have missed the point.

[@user-wb4hi6yu1p]

Shut up Aaron and let the man speak, let him finish making his point before interrupting like some corporate media interviewer 🤪 Great guest, keep 'em coming, still thinking I'm getting value for my fiver a month 🙂 Novara rocks ✊

[@brianwheeldon4643]

Trevor are you going to join Roger, Aaron - we hope, XR, Just Stop Oil and all the others on the street and outside parliament? Are you an activist, we need more activists, this isn't an interview show, this is reality and we need good people not bystanders. We need to create that social fluidity to bring sorely needed change to this decrepit system.

[@t0day]

I have to cut my watching due to his cutting the guest talk, thus just read the comments instead for conclusions

[@JoshUnwin]

Roger has plenty of opportunity to speak freely without interruption in his presentations and lectures, I was grateful for the interview context to see him being challenged on certain points

[@pedrogonzales9202]

No one cares about China? And who would that be? The shrinking ever irrelevant gyrations of an aging British population? It’s true, that if you all die and thereby stop pumping carbon into the atmosphere it will make ZERO affect to your dream of climate change. What the Chinese will do has relevance, what this man says has no relevance.

[@bozicayanc1932]

YOU, fmy first time to listen Aaroooon....Is he playing STUPIDITY or trying to be funny....??? Poor Roger with that HOST...I will LEAVE show...!!!

[@ernststravoblofeld]

I'm really impressed by this guy's refusal to be redirected. He just keeps talking until his point is made. Good for him!

[@scytheoflife1947]

It is also problematic though. I am worried about climate change but I dont think JSO etc is the right way to go about it. It just turns the people against them which is the exact people they need to win over. I have no problem closing down those ultimately culpable but blocking roads just pisses ppl off! If i was going to hospital with my mum kid etc and JSO stand in the way they might as well ring 999 now bcos id send you back to god

[@barryyoung]

Pity he mostly talks complete bollocks

[@bkbland1626]

Roger Hallum is as steady as they come. And as relentless as the tide. Respect.

[@totonow6955]

Finally someone puts into words the deep dark thought and use of the word of "we". I often worry about how "we" is thrown around.

[@dovic86]

I love you people at Novara, but I can understand where Hallam is coming from when he criticises the impotence and neurosis often embedded in intellectualism. People like him, who are capable of breaking the boundaries of political discourse, are desperately needed right now.

[@shadowofmyfutureself]

Spot on

[@TheFlyingBrain.]

As I spluttered in total frustration 5 days later, before seeing your comment, this so-called interview was primarily a waste of time. Rather than hosting Roger as a guest, and helping the audience to understand Roger's current message, this was all about Aaron, Aaron's ideas, and Aaron's analysis of what Aaron wanted to believe Roger meant when he, Aaron thought perhaps he could wind the interview up into an argument. Roger was incredibly patient with him. If it had been me, I would have walked out in the first 15 minutes. Intellectualizing like this is the last thing that's needed right now.

[@brianadlich4406]

@@TheFlyingBrain. wish I turned off 15 minutes in. I watched the whole thing and got nothing from it.

[@ezza88ster]

Yea, I get frustrated with Novara Media because they never discuss pathways to action or theories of change. I think that many leading figures on the left just assume everybody knows this stuff, perhaps because most have liberal arts degrees; not criticising - it's just we are not all in the know. There is an unfilled space for education (that builds class confidence), like the left used to do. Failing this could Novara not state briefly what actions are coming up so peepes could join in. I'm older and we're not all on social media. Thanks for the other great work you guys do though and just being there.

[@aislingmcdonald6778]

We need both. Brilliant conversion!

[@CluelessDave]

Would have been much better if Aaron stopped trying to win an argument and listened norre and just engaged with the topics that Roger Halllam wanted to discuss. Also I agree with his analysis.

[@frederickhartray8364]

Was there an analysis? I missed that. Just a doomsday prediction used by the powerful to create fear.

[@neilm1454]

Maybe Roger needs his own show then :)@@frederickhartray8364

[@hornerook]

Absolutely not. It's the responsibility of an interviewer to challenge his subject and get him to justify his position.

[@lkhvw2042]

Wow, Roger is awesome. We all have a lot to learn. I hope we can do it quickly! Edit - Aaron being an interruptive contrarian during this interview was annoying. He went in with his own ideas about Roger and it clouded his ability to actually listen to him.

[@RussCR5187]

TOTALLY annoying.

[@ninjabreadgirl]

Completely agreed. Couldn't stand Aaron here. Christ, this really changed my opinion of him.

[@BrianMartin-ph7pt]

Ask millionaire marxist and farmer Roger Hallam about his massive fleet of old, diesel spewing vehicles - is Roger the hypocrite using oxen and shire horses to do all the farm work then? Just another champagne socialist hypocrite, with more than a touch of insanity about him.

[@beerman204]

Roger Hallam. A very rare breed of man. He knows who he is, what he stands for, and what he's going to do about it.....

[@olivermcgough4559]

The ending annecdote is perfection: 'Each time a government suppresses revolt, they roll a dice on the outcome: Maximise the rolls of the dice'

[@slloyd1316]

Right, but he doesn't want a conversation about how we stack that dice. In his view he is maximising the outcome of those rolls but what if he isn't?

[@brianwheeldon4643]

@@slloyd1316 hahaha they didn't lock him up for no reason, they can't handle the heat, they're worried Hallam's message will get out, wider coverage. He's an effective activist. But you likely know that :)

[@davidwright8432]

Historically, governments have rolled the dice and won far, far more often than lost. Statistically, they're on a winning streak of throws. The American, French and Russian revolutions are the exceptional successes (as seen by those revolting). Mostly, fuck the peasantry. It pays better than helping them.

[@olivermcgough4559]

@@slloyd1316 His retort is that he's done this already, elsewhere, on his channel; that it'd be a waste of the interview to reiterate. So I went there and he has some brilliant speeches/essays: start from his most-viewed.

[@treesm4479]

Revolt is what they want you to believe it is. They who play us are masters of psychology and control the govts, corporations, finance, media and everything else. It takes a lot of funding to run a 'revolution', and often they do not end well for the people. Therefore check who's really behind it. The figureheads will be well schooled. When they want to move a society in a certain direction, they must set up movements, leaders, writers, influencers and so on. They'll have every demographic and institution covered. The young are the most important to be indoctrinated. They are primed as a ready made army for the 'cause'. I gave these movements little attention years ago... until I realised how politicized the whole thing is.. and its trajectory.

[@markromine5103]

Excellent guest. He's speaking a different language from what's been deemed acceptable to the neoliberal-owned media. It's frankly refreshing.

[@brianwheeldon4643]

Couldn't agree more

[@dogmatictales]

I agree❤

[@slostone3770]

We're back with Robert Shaw in BOB: 'Don't just stand there, get one up!'

[@ranilhewavisenti8989]

Is this an interview of Roger Hallam or a session for Bastani to pontificate using Hallam as window dressing. Do a word count!

[@markromine5103]

@Ranil Hewavisenti The frequent interruptions were quite frustrating. I really wanted to hear Hallam's perspective. 😔

[@user-ds3zf2hp4o]

It’s very lucky for you that Roger is being very patient!

[@nezlok]

“Trust me bro. I lost a lot of money and it made me feel feelings.” This was frustrating to listen to.

[@MaxVliet]

I really wish Hallam would have been given more space to explain his positions, and I can't help but feel like we missed out because Aaron was at times a little too keen to insert himself and his opinions into what Hallam was saying.

[@DeliveringSolutions]

Right. It's as frustrating as an interview on Impact Theory! I came to hear from the person that you are interviewing!

[@mdaniels6311]

I share Aarons frustrations. Roger should answer the questions he is asked. He is a guest on someone elses' show. To say "no one gives a f about China" was the moment he lost all his credibility in my eyes.

[@HidingFromFate]

​@@DeliveringSolutionsImpact Theory? I used to semi-regularly consume that guy's content. I ended up going down some dead end rabbit holes following some of the people he has platformed.

[@LittleOrla]

The guy throws out crap and mumbles this and that when pressed.

[@justinlee3852]

Tired of interviewers using the time to assert their intellect and continually interrupt. Let Roger express his views.

[@frankpanetta1596]

Thank you, Roger Hallam.

[@hardypermaculture]

Love Roger's 'Theory of Change'... "if public figures engage in civil resistance then we win".

[@ferdinandferdinand578]

Why is Aaron so confrontational? He literally would not let his guest speak. Roger has been so patient and Aron has been so arrogant. Also, the way Aaron has been so delighted to be labeled "Left Elite" is quite perplexing...Great guest though, I'll look for other of his interviews where he could actually "speak"

[@escapeadil]

I literally think that he spoke to Mehdi Hassan last week and then decided to cosplay being a "tough interviewer".

[@ferdinandferdinand578]

Excellent point indeed :)

[@Millelykkeandersen]

So much praise to Roger. Aaron is so keen on pulling Roger down various rabbit holes rather than ACTUALLY LISTENING to Rogers key ideas and debate the actual ideas rather that irrelevant fluff around it 😭 Roger is so patient! I'm not even agreeing with Roger on everything but I was loosing my shit at how he had to fight tooth and nail to actually talk about what he came to talk about 😥

[@aaronbastani1399]

He didn’t answer most of the questions! I say this as someone who agrees with a lot of what he says! 😅

[@boremir3956]

I think it's indicative of Novada being only interested in being a niche alternative media outlet rather than a vehicle for leading change.

[@Millelykkeandersen]

​@@aaronbastani1399 yeah, the way he kept cool and insisted on sticking to what he wanted to talk about was really good. I personally reckon that what Roger brings is a different philosophical approach, another meta narrative to frame this "existential climate crisis" in, not denying facts but utilizing freely from things the left are "usually scared to touch" such as good catholic scholarship and other religious spirituality and wants to wed facts to meaning - knowing that most people feel the need to belong in a deeper story, but also saying that the way the story of "climate change" has been framed, is not actually the "right" story. I would have LOVED to see an interview where you were not so locked into him showing you "facts" but where you had met him more in his thought project, you are a brilliant mind, and I think the conversation would have been much more fruitful.

[@Millelykkeandersen]

​@@aaronbastani1399 and also it's important to say that obviously good journalism is never microphone holding - I'm not saying you should have been less critical - I wish you had asked other questions

[@aaronbastani1399]

@@Millelykkeandersen but he wasn’t that interested in answering them. It was about a simple, clear message he wanted to get across. It’s a shame, because in legacy media you can’t discuss this stuff for 75 minutes! This isn’t 5 minutes on Radio 4.

[@dalewalkonen7847]

The end is the beginning - too bad the editor didn't make that leap and put Roger's call to action ( finally uninterrrupted by Aaron) at the top!

[@colmmcdonagh4519]

Wow! That was interesting. The most hopeful view for change I've heard. Like Mick Lynch, he is excellent at grounding the discussion in reality.

[@MegaHaywire]

I do wish Aaron would let the man speak

[@maxgodwin398]

All extremely interesting. Only one big problem from my point of view. If I spent 105 days in prison, I'd lose my 'bedsit', I'd lose my job, and come out homeless (and therefore not much use to anyone while I clamber around simply trying not to starve). This, by the way, is one of the reasons I think the cons are so enthusiastic about destroying the social safety net. It leaves a lot of ordinary people with very little or no wiggle room, no matter how emboldened the experience of prison makes them. The 'praxis', in that instance would be how the fuck am I going to eat tonight, and where the heck will I sleep? You know, fuck the planet right now, I don't want to die of hypothermia. And I'm not exaggeratting, the system as it stands excludes people and leaves them destitute for FAR less.

[@robertproctor4609]

This is the biggest challenge which is why we need to create our own support structures for anyone taking this type of action. Just like the miners did and other successful movements like the anti apartheid movement in South Africa.

[@2020_Visi0n]

They can throw you in jail....But they can't throw us all in jail. Safety (and power) in numbers.

[@martinwright8108]

Max, thank you for introducing this very real but often ignored dilemma.

[@andrewrushent2737]

Exactly this. Sadly, the vast majority of us literally cannot afford to ruin our lives this way and Roger is coming from a privileged position when advocating such things whether he realises this or not.

[@patcampton7163]

Yes. I agree. I have said that was Thatchers aims in selling off council homes then allowing credit to rise. Get people into debt. So housing debt, student debt etc. It prevents people fighting .

[@nyu1462]

Great guest, I will have huge respect in what he says and does. I wish someone else interviewed him.

[@AbtinX]

The patience of Mr Roger is beyond legendary. I would have snapped in the first 20 minutes. This level of dense liberal thought is beyond me.

[@ninjabreadgirl]

Honestly. Aaron was insufferable here.

[@DaveElliott_ATOMEKA]

Roger's talking circles around Aaron. Love this discussion. They're talking on different levels.

[@isaacsworld2523]

Great point!!! Different level of understanding and point of view. One talks with feelings and the other evidence.

[@frederickhartray8364]

You would love it. he is in your echo chamber. Were you to actually think scientifically about the claims he makes you would realize he is spewing panic with no scientific foundation. Show me the science!

[@bkbland1626]

Do the math. It's pretty irrefutable.@@frederickhartray8364

[@RugbyPass81]

​​@@frederickhartray8364"Show me the science" Sure, I'd recommend starting with the scientific paper, published in multiple, reputable, peer reviewed, scientific journals; 'Deep Adaptation' by Professor Jem Bendell. I may be leading with something a little hard-line here, but as an academic within the realm of Environmental sciences myself (specialising in Marine Environmental Science), I feel it necessary. It details the huge loss of life we're facing, conflicts over basic resources such as food and water access, mass migration from the global south to the global north as the south can no longer maintain agricultural practices in order to sustain their populations, increasing failures of crops in the global north, positive feedback loops - which are, in fact, negative in consequences - that are set off by surpassing certain tipping points (some of which we've passed already, certain environmental feedback loops are already in play, as we speak; ice melt/DDW deep dark water exposure cycle for one example) and so on. The paper actually pushed some into requiring therapy so, enjoy the read.

[@alicerose9140]

My like is for the last 10 minutes when Roger was allowed to speak uninterrupted.

[@xeorgie]

You know, interviews are supposed to be a dialogue, not a monologue.

[@alicerose9140]

@@xeorgie This was neither. It was a series of antagonistic ascertians and patient explanations. Aaron is not in Roger's league.

[@keithflint7243]

@@alicerose9140 Alice, you're right. Aaron blew this one.

[@alicerose9140]

@@keithflint7243 Thanks. Aaron is great on his own analysis, & one reason why I clicked, but apparently not a skilled interviewer. He was rude & behaved like a petulant child without humility. Maybe bc he's 'jealous' that Roger's 'done time' or bc his boss was in the room.

[@marcsimard2723]

@@alicerose9140 well, the first problem is : he has a boss

[@angelalagomarsino9303]

Love Extinction Rebellion guy. Refuse refuse refuse. He is completely correct.

[@dblenehan]

Arron boils the tar out of me. He interrups his guest, barking at 100 decibels pretty much every time his guest is making a point, up staging his guest with that aggressive machine gun dialogue. First time i've heard roger hallam and i will find more about him and listen to him again.

[@MrCaptainRoscoe]

The only interviewer from Novara that actually shuts up, listens and lets their guest speak is Michael Walker.

[@jayarava]

Today Program wannabes. 🤣

[@crumplepunch312]

It should have been obvious within the first ten minutes that Roger wanted to control the conversation and wasn't going to take any of Aaron's attempts to persist in questions he didn't want to answer. This would have been much more fruitful if Aaron had backed off and listened more.

[@Enormous866]

True

[@grtxyz4358]

Quite tiring to not get any answers… if u can’t answer any question you’re not credible in my book.

[@scottmcneil1150]

What a brilliant thinker, thanks for creating this information.

[@geoffdavids7647]

I personally think this a great interview, and precisely for the reasons some people are criticizing it. Aaron becoming definitely flustered (though still well composed), and then trying to split hairs while the proverbial Rome burns - but then being fantastically and effortlessly brought back to the point by Roger again and again. Roger so calmly outlines the imortance of these emotive angles of discussion, an unflinching blade of realism against Aaron's mild air of intelligencia. Through this contrast, the unwavering clarity and truth of Roger's speech is made all the more striking. Feels like Aaron acts, whether he meant to or not, like a surrogate for a left-wing academic audience's classic internal resistances to this kind of messaging. No blame on Aaron ofc, and i think this interview is still one of the best with Roger out there. I hope Aaron can take the critique in stride, and grow and develop skills for these kinds of interviews, where the guests views are rather close to home and challenge your own in uncomfortable ways. Looking forward to interviews to come!

[@swyveu]

perfect comment 👍

[@aretwodeetoo1181]

Well put.

[@drmacshscphysics4494]

I think you're too kind to Aaron, in this instance and he doesn't listen to what is being said to him. I have heard him do much better interviews since but maybe that is for the reasons you mention.

[@frederickhartray8364]

Hallam makes no logical arguement for the end of the world coming, nor does he offer any solutions. I am not saying we are not on the wrong track but this ex farmer is less enlightened than my 21 year old son.

[@trulymental7651]

It is called devils advocate. A good way to get the information you need.

[@AndysBrainblog]

Well done for inviting Roger on to the show. He deserves a hearing.

[@deejay7648]

Will he be warning us about our mothers, sisters and girlfriends being g@ ng r@ ped on the kitchen table?

[@crankfwd8209]

As in bail hearing? Funny.

[@queenvagabond8787]

"Strikes Work" Was mentioned, but what wasn't mentioned was that Unions need to be prepared to break their constraints set up in the 80s and Strike *illegally* for more than just pay - workers must strike in protest of the coming climate genocide our current ruling classes are defacto organising by continuing with 'Business as Usual.'

[@deejay7648]

@Crank Fwd - More like a hearing before a psychiatric panel.

[@crankfwd8209]

@@deejay7648 stop projecting, it's obvious your light went out years ago.

[@Majoofi]

OMG, Aaron, It's one thing to challenge someone's perspective, but you can't reasonably challenge someones point if you never give them a chance to make their point.

[@deejay7648]

@Majoofi - Yet when interviewed it’s standard XR practice to either scream “Denier” at the interviewer or recite from the scriptures.

[@jazura2]

@@deejay7648 Yes it works both ways.

[@SongwritersAndPoets]

I’ve lived this horror for my entire life and standing at 68, In my summation it’s time to dig in and learn and teach to survive in intentional communities capable of weathering the collapse…

[@karensavageau4622]

We don't have 20 years...lucky if we have 5 years left...Meers ReflEction project is humanity's only hope.

[@jesmacdon]

I'm normally a fan of these interviews and Aaron and Novara. And I'm all in favour of Novara doing more on the climate crisis. But I found this 'interview'/conversation infuriating because I really wanted to hear Roger Hallam's point of view and Aaron kept interrupting him. How Aaron behaved reminded me somewhat of James O'Brien, I'm sorry to say, who I find unlistenable because he loves the sounds of his own voice so much. Do better next time please Aaron - give the person a chance to lay out their argument

[@JohnWesleyBarker]

Roger is excellent. Holding on to his topic of praxis and asking, "what action are we going to take now?". We DO NEED TO ACT NOW.

[@deejay7648]

No, we We DON’T NEED TO ACT NOW. She deleted the tweet.

[@michaelrch]

@@deejay7648 ah your climate denial has found another channel to pollute I see...

[@johnwheeler4034]

Praxis, meaning practice as distinguished from theory. When I googled a Toronto car thing popped up

[@deejay7648]

@Michael RCH - What is climate denial? I know a lot about climate. I have studied climate at university. Yourself?

[@crankfwd8209]

@@deejay7648 Damn Deej, climate scientist today, engineer yesterday. You do know that when Novara says they like Mr Benn, they're referring to Tony?

[@AndrashSpooshkash]

Thsi is an endless discussion that will end with the deaths of Billions of people

[@Jorell420]

I’d love to hear this guy back up his claims and partake in the conversation

[@rdh-daliasjb3796]

Hallam: I can have this interview with anyone, let me give you the information you need to hear. Bastani: No!

[@julieweiner1623]

Terrible. I wanted to hear this man.

[@RajSingh-xv9xk]

Role the dice. No wonder the state is scared of this guy. Best interview ever.

[@deejay7648]

Which guy is the state scared of and why is the state scared of this guy?

[@toby81tube]

@@deejay7648 I guess because he's been extremely effective? The 'state' was even forced to change the law, in order to combat their disruptive tactics?

[@brianwheeldon4643]

Raj agree totally. Pass it on and ready for activism

[@deejay7648]

@Toby Mansell - OK. You don’t know, but by using “their” you have at least narrowed it down to someone non-binary. It’s a start.

[@toby81tube]

@@deejay7648 I asked two questions, you failed to answer either? Writing "OK. You don't know" in all your comments, seems like you don't have any answers? No surprise tbh.

[@spaceman77777]

Conversations are better than ego-driven arguments. Aaron is full of emotional gotchas, Roger is calm and clear.

[@glendicky]

It seems like Aaron keeps interrupting to prove how clever he is, at the same time seeming like he can’t grasp what Roger is saying. I usually think Aaron does a decent job but this is by far the worst interview I’ve seen/heard him do. Extra shame because of how important this topic is and how good effect it could have had if it weren’t continually hampered 😢 This is the first time I’ve heard of Roger but he is talking so much sense here that seems to go straight over Aaron’s head.

[@KiaraKoala-ke6tl]

What a Painful conversation..

[@aaronsmith3669]

Great to see Roger Hallam on here, and I love Aaron B as a host and a contributor (and normally as an interlocutor) but he's too full-on here. Give Roger more chance to develop a point - we want to hear from him primarily

[@nagbeanagbea8689]

I didn't know much about Roger Hallam until this podcast. It was a great articulation of the concretisation of praxis through civil disobedience. Hallam exposes clearly the intellectual inertia of the Left and gives clear direction on the characteristics required of conscious leadership. Really enjoyable, educational and I recommend he comes back to Novara very soon. He represents the Zeitgeist of the current time and I'm definitely going to buy his book. 👍

[@ichifish]

I can't believe I'm writing a fourth comment, but I'm so aggravated at Aaron. Now he's telling Roger that violence was inflicted on him, trying to goad him into something, I guess, when Roger clearly has other ideas that he wants to get out because it's obvious to all or us what the state has done to him but that's not the important point.

[@michaelrch]

33:16 having listened to Aaron's occasional and oblique references to climate change in the past, I think he is a perfect example of what Roger is talking about. The intellectuals on the left like him (and btw I am a big fan of his) have absolutely NOT internalised the meaning of the climate emergency. He acknowledged here that climate refugee flows by the mid 2030s will collapse the global economy. But would you ever Intuit that this is what he really understands by the nature of the rest of his output? Definitely not. Roger is absolutely right that the left doesn't really believe what they profess to believe, not really. They know that it's a fact but they cannot make it real for themselves. So they act like it's just a political issue like any other to be contested in BAU political discourse. That could not be more wrong or more dangerous.

[@brianwheeldon4643]

Such a great point Michael

[@bashful228]

My experience is that the climate left (a category i belong to by default) for the most part they don’t even want to acknowledge any these things. If you try any kind of basic analysis of the risk/threat that is real they’re already calling you depressing. They live on the exchange of hopium and mutual congratulations about doing fuck all while simultaneously have having weak as analytical and strategic thinking skills.

[@PaulSzymkowiaks]

Agreed Michael. Aaron seems completely unable to step out of the core stereotype Roger notes early in Aaron's near monologue. Some active listening skills might help Aaron. But on reflection, many - if not most - social-media front-people ARE sticky sound-bite / fact-bite fetishists. It's the grease that keeps the social-media engine moving, even in the absence of substance.

[@colinshaw8662]

This is precisely what I've taken from this interchange .......interviewer misses it completely

[@marcariotto1709]

It's do gooder fashion.

[@austinsideburns]

this is frustrating, as a non academic, it reminds me of debating all academics. They get bogged down with the details and 'winning a point' with an high concept, rather than move on to stating each case of WHAT action can be taken and what the desired result would be, bassed on their current position.

[@brianwheeldon4643]

I know it seems like that Austin, but hones mate it ain't. Largely it's due to the medium of TV/youtube and a little bit because they know each other, and infact respect each other. Don't give up on change, it's essential to the future of our own and society. Cheers

[@austinsideburns]

@@brianwheeldon4643 @Utoobe Izkaka the 2nd half was better. I was frustrated because I know they already agree on the broad subject, and I wanted to hear about the way forward, which they eventually got to.

[@eddiespears8016]

The reason Roger was jailed is because people who speak the truth are taken as a threat to authority and face persecution.

[@johncusson5703]

It would have been nice to hear more from Roger Hallam.

[@Hadezul2]

I think Aaron seems to want to keep revising the evidence and reasons. Roger is trying to say that the proof is already out there, now we need action to change the system.

[@spannabird6173]

Roger Halllam.. you are ace!

[@StephenForbes-iw7gl]

Roger a true speaking truthful godly man forgive my mistake God bless,✌🤘🙏

[@eriknorberg6154]

It was very annoying that Roger Hallam was constantly interrupted and was not allowed to finish one sentence. Aaron implied that people are interested in the discussion in itself. Still, the truth is that, for example, I, as one of the people, would like to hear what he, Roger Hallam, had to say without being interrupted. He is brilliant, and listening to his concept of what is happening worldwide would be worth the time.

[@PaulSzymkowiaks]

Agree with you completely Erik

[@valq10]

This conversation was electric. Aaron does a great job at representing a different attitude, giving Roger the chance to critique it, but Roger really is much more insightful than I ever gave him credit for before. Consider my paradigm shifted!

[@brianwheeldon4643]

Yes Agree, pass it on and roll on March/April

[@madameblatvatsky]

Roger knows. Bastani is in denial.

[@mikecook1537]

Even though he can't even tell us when any of this is gonna happen. Does anyone actually know how little c02 the UK contribute to global warming!? It's under 2% whereas china is over 30% I mean why isn't that mentioned FFS

[@5piles]

aaron is an unbearable speaker as usual

[@jayarava]

About an hour in Roger points out that what Aaron is engaged in is wanking. That summed it up for me.

[@tamlynmcdonald8312]

Roger articulates the problem so succinctly, we haven’t got time to debate the details, we must recognize the problem at its heart, the elites are not interested in saving the masses from extinction, we need to resist now… period.

[@AH-xs3hg]

This is the most interesting interview about climate change I've ever heard.

[@mattyartell9575]

Bastani totally delighted by being called "left elite" was fun. Hallam spent most of this hour saying that he doesn't want to talk about certain things because he only has an hour. Perhaps you should invite him for a longer chat?

[@Poulton64]

I'm not sure this is such a great interview as is being heralded in the comments. I'm half way through the interview, and Aaron has been philosophsing about being accurate about 'how many' people will die or be displaced due to climate change, whilst completely ignoring the fact that if Roger is even 5% right - what will result is a fundamental breakdown of civil and political society. Then whithout recognising this, Aaron immediately is moving on without giving Roger the opportunity to discuss why the immediacy of the issue matters, to corner him on the qustion of violence in his activism. So far what would matter to people to mobilise them on the issue of climate discussion has been lost in the same noise the liberal and right wing media create to silence influential climate campaigners.

[@althaeacorn]

Yes I agree it was incredibly frustrating to listen to ,and usually I really like Aaron

[@roddysturret3020]

yes I agree Arron just turned this interview into an argumentative Debate which can be so , Trashy ,, its supposed to be an interview where we`d expect serious Discussion on serious matters

[@maganvelemeny8843]

This is a great interview in a sense that it reveals a lot about the limits of this liberal, "im leftist but..." type of worldview that these sorts of institutions devolve into. Its painful to watch, but it must be watched for clarity.

[@claudeyaz]

If these models are true, and UK and America even if we stopped existing tomorrow, these things would still happen because of how much of this pollution is coming from Asia... We need to get on the roll with developing new technologies and better ways to both prepare for climate change and to thrive through it Humans always think if we're gonna survive this we'll survive it by out developing it...and that is the answer As long as everybody knows that an anti human ideology is not the way to solve this problem We need to get our energy independence back as soon as possible get that excess capital so we are able to have more people going to physics and engineering, and start working towards solution

[@Andrea-zm1nl]

Dude... nothing is going to motivate people to change their entire ways of life to something that will work to balance out the climate on a global level. No one wants to go back to the way life was before the industrial revolution. No one wants to give up hot running water and electricity in our homes, cars and trucks, and modern access to goods they want to buy. If you want to know what human life in balance with the climate looks like, go and rent the first season of little house on the prairie....or any other tv show filmed in the fifties and sixties that was a western. Gunsmoke or the rifle man... because that's what is needed to fix what we caused, and this is why no one talks about the actual solutions and what they look like...🙄🙄

[@sagdragon64]

The sign of a good interviewer is interrupt and talk over your guest as much as possible, constantly correcting them with what you think and believe. In this case Aaron is a winner!

[@cedricworthingtonbroadaxe2287]

In my opinion, this bloke seems utterly unable to justify any of the points he's trying to make.

[@clivejbarrett]

Mr Bastani could learn to listen sometimes.

[@graphosphere]

I wish Aaron had left Roger to speak freely… Lex Fridman would have been a much more sensible interviewer, he knows the best skill is to LISTEN! Roger is brilliant.

[@tatjanakorzova7847]

Thank you very much Aaron for creating the pathway.

[@whermany]

I wanted to listen to the whole thing. I can’t stand interviewers that berate their guests. It’s a fine between being firm and asking tough questions. It’s another thing altogether when the interviewer is trying to have an “I got him!” moment.

[@donrayjay]

Gauntlet well and truly thrown. I hope, Aron, you and Novara pick it up!

[@swarupawalker7904]

Shhhh Aaron ! This is a rare interview

[@TheTristanmarcus]

What an inspiring man 😊 Might be better if the young, green-behind-the-ears whippersnapper were to listen to the older, more experienced person who has clearly thought a lot about it - very close to hubris 🤔

[@sallyrucker8990]

Aron didn’t even realize how much he was proving Roger Hallam’s very point. He wanted the why, because he didn’t want to see the what. Chewing on the why’s provides a way to avoid the truth. Thank you Aaron for allowing Roger to be able to speak towards the end of the interview.

[@algfourty9185]

Don't agree woth everything Roger says, but I wholeheartedly agree that the left needs to be more pro-active in civil disobedience

[@patriciam.1204]

Unfortunately there is no left wing in parliament. If we all do our bit and be aware of the carbon we use, lobby and vote for candidates that that support climate change, do our best, small changes will grow. Mind you I’ve been saying this since the sixties. Hay Ho!

[@GazB85]

@@patriciam.1204 Small changes aren’t going to solve this when the biggest causes of climate change are the US military and about 10 major corporations.

[@DdraigGoch84]

@@patriciam.1204 I guess it’s time for less hey-ho, less small incremental change and outright, global class war that’ll maybe, just maybe save the planet and the vast majority of our race. The other stuff can then be worked out afterwards, providing we survive

[@althaeacorn]

​@@patriciam.1204 Sorry but those were what we needed to do 40 years ago ,we now have very little time..we need a 45% reduction in CO2 emissions by 2030 but instead each year they are rising..

[@johnwheeler4034]

52:12 Rogers look of desperation is entirely justified.

[@andria3a]

Yes! Oppression does bring maturity, resilience, competence and even,confidence. U wait til I bloom proper!

[@lynclarke6184]

You Roger have just made sense of all the happenings in the world. I don’t like what I’m hearing but it all makes sense. Biggest problem is that the left and right are two wings of the same bird or rather two cheeks of the same arse.

[@jamesbrown5705]

Until XR’s launch in 2018 I was blissfully unaware of the crises we face. My daughter opened my eyes. I was shocked and angry. I adopted the theory of change lock, stock and barrel and jumped in with both feet. After 14 arrests I ended up in Wandsworth with a year’s custodial sentence for gluing myself to the top of a British Airways plane at London’s City Airport. I too have changed through my prison experience. I too am much more confident. As a disabled person in an environment which was hopelessly equipped to support me I really struggled. I’m registered blind with a small amount of residual vision and the prison denied me my glasses for most of the time I was there - I was released when the court of appeal overturned the sentence after 2.5 months. I’m emboldened, more confident, more determined. This was a fab interview and I hope folk now mobilise in resistance against the most genocidal project in human history.

[@russtaylor2122]

I remember your livestream James! You faced the fear, which i think is what Roger is saying here. We all say 'but what about my job, house, kids, pension, etc,' and i'm a massive hypocrite too, and the outcome of inaction is the realisation of our collective fear. Glad to hear you're still thriving my friend...

[@thisismyuniquestory]

Thanks for your story James Brown and your survival instinct which included prison and the court of appeal. From your various health conditions I'm guessing your age included being protected by the Welfare State. The neo liberals have spoiled the most wonderful country in the world who could have built back better with the advantage of industry. A highly skilled workforce and paid back to all the countries we robbed blind with the advantage of slavery. I wish your emboldened self every success and the best of health. I found out yesterday Scotland deprivatised hospitals, time for England to do the same

[@heyya99]

I'm grateful for your contribution to the cause, James.

[@nyoodmono4681]

There is no crisis, you can relax. It is not warming globaly for 6 years now and the CO2 climate sensitivity is unknown.

[@treesm4479]

Schools have been brainwashing the young as a ready made army for the globalist agenda for a long time. These kids are so indoctrinated. Sad to see parents falling for that instead of questioning why.

[@stookful]

As an old leftist who has been involved in politics for, on and off, the last 40 years I feel Roger Hallam 's frustration with the over emphasis on theory. I was once part of a political faction who held a day school while fascists were marching just a few miles away. One of the subjects covered in the day school was fascism, what it is and how to fight it. Many on the left have difficulty in seeing how climate change is the leading issue of the class struggle, some are even deniers. I think most can't figure how traditional working class action can tackle the issue. They should give Roger a listen.

[@stevenredpath9332]

I can remember the poll tax and the opposition to that. People went to jail, united together and took to the streets. That’s why we won. Ever since then we went back to sleep and the state sung us lullabies whilst increasing repression.

[@fatdaddy1996]

Climate change is NOT the leading issue of the Class Struggle, that's just plain wrong.

[@vincentruben4365]

Wow, this guy is nothing short of a hero!

[@satsuthek]

Gee, I really wanted to hear what Roger Hallam had to say.

[@space.youtube]

Aaron's difficulty grappling with capital's indifference to human life is bizarre. He only need look at global poverty, engineered political instability and conflict to see what is patently obvious. The same for his attempt at doing a "weather isn't climate" when Hallam described his farming experience. If only he had shown half as much backbone when peter hitchens argued to criminalise women's reproductive rights. Edit: aaron's constant "hold ons" and interjections are beyond annoying, totally unnecessary and counterproductive. Aaron: "have you read Ministry of the Future...it's a really important book..." Roger: "no" This exchange exemplifies why leftist academia has completely failed, is utterly inept and incapable of leading anything more meaningful than a philosophical social media navel gazing circle jerk. Hallam goes on to challenge bastani to walk his talk, bastani asks if he's read another different book. "have you read" is not a strategy, it is not a movement, and it is not a revolutionary act. I wouldn't trust leftist academics with directions, let alone have them drive the bus. 54:26 "...that's what I call intellectual masturbation.." 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@santinopaone-hoyland]

You can agree with Hallam and think he is right in this debate without claiming Bastani and the intellectual left are all pompous morons. Comes across as arrogantly as "have you read this important book".

[@robertwinslade3104]

I like Aaron but you are absolutely spot on in your criticism here. A lot of people in the comments here seem to be saying similar things so hopefully he will listen

[@theresabarzee1463]

Roger is one of my very favorite heroes, ever! I love farming. And I got politicized by Roger and ExR!

[@OwlsAreWatchingYou]

Roger has got the the right mindset! Aaron, on the other hand, was completely stuck in an odd egoic certainty, which made it a painful watch. Maybe get Roger again and have Ash do the interview? Thanks

[@gerartsmith]

Mr. Hallam, I like your analysis of things. I was also impressed with your patience with Mr. Bastani, at least upto 54:21 into the interview. I believe, however, that most people won’t give a darn, at least in the U.S., until their 401K’s or retirement pensions are affected. At least that seems to be the case for most liberals and conservatives here.

[@carolindings6081]

But how good can one be listening when he states he agrees, but actually doesn't and seems to be making the same mistakes Roger is explaining to be the problem?...

[@fatdaddy1996]

You are 100% right Carolindings. Very many people are against "climate change", but only so long as it's just words.

[@johnwheeler4034]

54:44 Bastani really ruins the whole point of the interview, which was to talk about action, not general condemnation. Specific. I fear his interview with Medi hussain came too soon. Someone else who doesn't know how to act, and doesn't recognize his place as just a chatterbox that might spur people to fight for what is Manifest.

[@jakeshockley2735]

Roger, thank you, but the amount of people needed to reach a tipping point is far greater than the number of us capable of comprehending the state of affairs.

[@user-gd8db8oc5z]

Roger seems to be a very original thinker with pertinent things to say, but Aaron wouldn't let him get started. Such a pity.

[@deejay7648]

I have watched Hallam's KZbin channel. It’s comedy gold.

[@toby81tube]

@@deejay7648 Why do you bother? Deniers are are just non-entities, shouting in to the void

[@deejay7648]

@Toby Mansell - What am I denying. You’re another one without a coherent rebuttal, or any debating skills, you have gone straight to screaming “Denier.”

[@crankfwd8209]

@@deejay7648 They're letting you watch KZbin now? Good boy, for taking your meds.

[@toby81tube]

@@deejay7648 So ironic? Now you're asking people to debate with you? No chance.

[@Toldandretold]

I signed up extinction rebellion in australia while watching Fascinating conversation, honestly He give a practical example in the way he speaks, of doing exactly what he is asking for: a praxis of immediate action

[@rachaelandrews3493]

Check out Stop Fossil Fuel Subsidies, Australia too - one of the A22 campaigns along with Just Stop Oil

[@wil9089]

honestly thinking of joining future XR Australia demos in the future too

[@nicholaskostopulos8631]

Aaron, excellent job with a brilliantly difficult guest. I’m in the States, and Novara is my favorite podcast by a mile (kilometer).. Keep pushing the envelope..

[@user-uc8sr7ly6b]

This is the first time I've heard Rodger Hallam make his point, and I'm not just impressed with his argument, but also his determined focus. I find myself bound to find-out much more of this movement. I must ask myself, am I ready to serve my six-months in custody, or longer, to help my grandchildren survive the British totalitarian state. Roger, you are much too essential to hunger strike at this, still early stage. And Aaron, please ask him back when you are next feeling peckish and do bring toffees. Thanks, Ron.,

[@leskuzyk2425]

This needs a summary, with most of Aaron edited out. Awesome patience Roger.

[@johndoe1765]

I agree.

[@brianwheeldon4643]

As Yanis Varoufakis said to Aaron in an interview prior to Brexit "Democracy is not a spectator sport". I don't think Aaron understands that concept.

[@americana1234]

Real

[@charlesc-r2926]

great interview, but I wish Aaron would interrupt him less

[@blackdogbarking]

being punished means you are considered a threat so it shows confirms that your actions are worthwhile, thats what every one wants

[@jean6453]

Aaron keeps saying that he understands. This interview and Aaron's attempts is an excellent example of the mental and moral shift that needs to happen. Roger, I hope your patience lasts for a long time and thank you so much for explanations and perspectives.

[@hkaur4487]

I think Roger Hallam hit the nail on the head when he spoke about the divide in the left, between theory and praxis. I wish Aaron would have had a dialogue about praxis instead of trying to repeatedly force Roger to talk about violence, which he was obviously not prepared to do.

[@zensoredparagonbytes3985]

@Prophecies of Doom and Salivationthat's funny, if you type Praxis nl in your browser you will find images of that word in huge red letters on the side of a building.

[@zensoredparagonbytes3985]

@Prophecies of Doom and Salivationthe irony is that it's the name for a chain of diy shops in the Netherlands. The other irony is, that it is a word mainly used in theoretical speech and never in an every day job environment, while it means putting into practice.

[@dmwalker24]

In an attempt at a more relevant reply... It's fairly clear that a large chunk of the left can't get beyond theory. I happen to think this is because most of the younger individuals have never actually seen praxis. Worsening material conditions can make that a moot point. I just worry how bad things will need to be.

[@christiangranado8774]

violence can be praxis, that was the whole point of him discussing it, no?

[@michaelrch]

Great interview. Genuinely fascinating, and motivating. Well done Aaron. Will you do what Roger was inviting you to? Please give it serious consideration.

[@brianwheeldon4643]

Well said Michael, I couldn't agree more.