The Case for Preferments | Preferments vs. Long Fermentation

Today, we're going to make the case for preferments. As someone who uses pre-ferments quite frequently in my recipes, among the many positive comments I get, I sometimes receive some very repetitive comments telling me that preferments are essentially useless for home bakers or that there's no need to do them. After going through enough of these comments, I decided to make this video.
Here, I'm going to make the argument for preferments, based on science of course. We'll talk about why pre-ferments are different from a long straight dough fermentation. We're also going to cover what kind of pre-ferments there are and how we can best use them. Watch the video for more!
#preferments #poolish #biga #levain
Chapters
0:00 Opening
0:42 Preferments are unnecessary?
1:30 Objectives
2:00 Historical Aspects
3:35 Levain
4:18 To make a Levain
5:14 Beer Yeast
5:31 The origin of Poolish
6:18 "Great Acceleration" of bread making
7:15 Awakening
8:03 Main Subject
8:57 Glutathione
10:51 What happens if we use a little yeast?
11:09 Main Scientific Papers
13:17 Support for Long Fermentation
13:33 What is the point of using preferments
28:18 Lean Dough Fermentation
31:14 Making a Poolish
References:
1. The contribution of glutathione to the destabilizing effect of yeast on wheat dough
C Verheyen et al., 2014
2. Growth of Salmonella enterica and Staphylococcus aureus in no-knead bread dough during prolonged yeast fermentation Steven Pao et al., 2011
3. The aroma profile of wheat bread crumb influenced by yeast concentration and fermentation temperature Anja N. Birch et al., 2013
4. Volatile compounds in whole meal bread crust: The effects of yeast level and fermentation temperature M N Nor Qhairul Izzreen et al., 2016
5. RHEOLOGICAL DOUGH PROPERTIES AS AFFECTED BY ORGANIC ACIDS AND SALT
A. MAHER GALAL et al., 1978
6. Wheat flour proteases and their action on gluten proteins in dilute acetic acid
Kawamura, Y., & Yonezawa, D. 1982
7. Lactic Acid Bacterium and Yeast Microbiotas of 19 Sourdoughs Used for Traditional/Typical Italian Breads: Interactions between Ingredients and Microbial Species Diversity
Fabio Minervini et al., 2012

[@AlkonKomm]

there is also just a very simple, pragmatic reason for using them: I can let my preferment pretty much sit around for ages until it develops a nice, boozy aroma and even if the gluten is completely gone by the time I end up using it, I will still make good bread, because only a small fraction of the flour is used for the preferment. If I cold ferment the whole thing for a long time (especially rye or anything with a high enzyme activity) you can absolutely fuck up and overdo it and by the time you want to bake your bread it is already overfermented. so I would argue preferments just give you more control over the process.

[@rebeccapurvis4481]

I just discovered your videos last night and have been blown away by your incredibly detailed and informative discussions. The section on the dangers cross-contaminatiom by no knead dough is something should be heard/read by every bread baker. I'm primarily a sourdough baker and haven't made no knead bread since I first started baking, but in all the years I've made bread, I've never heard anything about this. I truly can't believe that this isn't commonly known information. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us. I really, REALLY appreciate it!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you for your kind comment, and I'm happy to hear that the information was useful to you! Indeed, the dangers of contamination can be quite serious and should be known by more people. I've read enough about unfortunate outbreaks to be worried 😨

[@matthewrogers237]

This was incredible. I’ve been a pretty obsessed sourdough enthusiast for the last year. And I had heard some of this science but this was by far the most comprehensive explanation I’ve come across.

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@jameswalsh1941]

Hello I have just discovered this channel and i am already a fan. I am a professional baker with over 40 years experience and i find your mix of science and practically so refreshing, I am always on the lookout for new ideas and knowledge and here I believe I can find something new, The methods you are demonstrating are not new to me but the explanations are giving me a lot of new ideas, there is nothing in the world more satisfying to me than the sight of a perfect bread coming out of the oven and I believe you may be able to help me do my job better. Thank you

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you! Glad to hear from a seasoned baker with such a long experience. A better insight can indeed bring out many untapped wonders of bread making.

[@markf3494]

I have been making sourdough bread for about 15 years and only this year started using a preferment. It took my 2 day bread making to 3 days but the flavor is worth it. I only knew a little of the science behind it but got most of my information from reading professional baking books and adapting it to my starter. You have greatly increased my knowledge of the science behind the art of breadmaking. I don't use commercial yeast, but all of the information you provided was useful. Thank you!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you too! Glad to read your comment.

[@henrikhvass5595]

This is the most accurate and studied resume of the bread making process. In my professional experiece using exactly to the point everything that is explained by evidence , I must say that this is an extraordinary and precise resume. Thanks for your incredibly dedication and efforts.

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks for sharing!

[@rodneyferris4089]

This is so essential to anyone wanting to bake at home or professionally. I think that today we've even dumbed down home baking by either insisting on using commercial yeast, loading sugar to "prove" yeast that was recently purchased, or these huge videos about the making of sourdough that sounds more like a massive chemical experiment, than thinking it out by remembering the cooks of the early days of our continent and on the settling of the Plains and the West Coast who had to make their own Barm! and they didn't want to make bread that was full of holes and was so sour and "stinky" so that the kids wouldn't eat it. Your presentation make so much sense ! I've been baking for 40 years for my family and friends and I have always sought to bake the most naturally as possible. I've always had the best success by pre-fermenting my starter. I've also learned that sourdough starter is almost indestructible unless you burn it as we do in the oven... or so I thought and I've found that it doesn't really all die and there is a fermentation that keeps on going after a bread is baked. Well constructed and naturally fermented dough either with wild yeast or commercial yeast is always delicious, healthy and is almost close to hypoallergenic !

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks for sharing. Really really appreciate your comment.

[@MarissaT27]

Brava!!! I had been searching KZbin for precisely this type of information that no cookbook on baking provides. Thank you! ❤

[@xpahos]

"Handbook on Sourdough Biotechnology" by Marco Gobbetti, Michael Ganzle

[@RonMarotte]

Wow! Wow! Wow! This is a master's class for all bread makers. And outstanding presentation of the various components that interplay in bread making. Just sensational.

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@benjamindejonge3624]

The only logical explanation I’ve ever heard in this most frustrating and complicated matter

[@ronaldo5276]

Excellent review as always. Worth emphasizing that a huge benefit of preferments is when it comes to enriched doughs. A long fermentation will end up with a very different, less desirable chemical profile and lack any control.

[@NovitaListyani]

Indeed, having too many aroma compounds isn't necessarily a good thing.

[@Osama_Abbas]

This is an underrated channel with great content. Please Novita and Seraphine, use ads to grow your channel. It really worth a try at least.

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks for the suggestion!

[@williamfotiou7577]

Please list who underrated it. Thank you.

[@1stSchoolofLife]

KZbin's algorithm. I have been looking for a channel like this and only just discovered it.​@williamfotiou7577

[@coridaw715]

​@@williamfotiou7577I think they are saying it doesn't get the attention it deserves.

[@williamfotiou7577]

@coridaw715 attention and being underrated have 2 different connotations. But......I'm old enough to understand that. When you say " this is underrated " it's actually an insult or backhanded compliment. Can you please comment back after your 16th birthday. Thank you

[@TheoboldJamzen]

wow! especially thanks for the glutathione info ... been doing 100% biga-no-stress (18C 18hours) with 'poor' flour in tropics, 90F 90%Humidity ... recently tried some glutathione, not understanding it would make the poor flour weaker for pizza, and overferement fast/fall down ... now using a pinch of vitamin C powder/ascorbic acid with some better results on increasing dough strength and dough ballls for pizza ... its about balance sometimes .... expereince. thanks for sharing ur work ... Good Stuff!

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad it was helpful!

[@AiPlus13]

Wow. What a presentation I really learned a lot. I've been watching a lot of baking vid lately and I'm so happy to discover this channel. This is on the university lectures level. I watched a lot of it during the lockdown just for a change and been a fan of Joanne Chang since then. You are now part of that list. Thank you for sharing. I'll definitely binge-watch in this channel.❤ Kudos😊

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks

[@jackskalski3699]

Great video as usual. To be honest the levain aspect of bread baking was my Eureka moment 1 month ago. No one really spelled it out to me exactly and I was in the mindset, that well yeah there are these vague benefits but people claim they have great bread without them so in my mind it was just a recipe thing. Than I realised that this is the essence of taste and structure and all of these aromas. Than I realised there are recipes that have multi stage levains with specific tempartures in different stages just to get the right balance of microorganisms and compounds mix. Than YT notified me about your video just adding the science behind it :) Awesome and keep it up. Love your channel and also the "no BS baking" channel :)

[@jackskalski3699]

It's worth mentioning that as home bakers we are not that much confined by the economy of baking so we can have a wider playing field by experimenting with combining sourdough starter derived levains with yeasted preferments in a single recipe. Food for thought :D

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you for sharing!

[@maxfigueras752]

I am fascinated by your channel, I have only seen two videos now, but each look like a project for a college thesis! I love how you make the scientific terms more approachable but not infantilize us, as if the common public wasn't able to understand 'big words', or make a google search for definitions. It's so sad that the Internet mixes people with so much talent and who make great efforts to produce quality content, and people who will not finish watching your video before spilling their thoughts mindlessly. It's something that we have to endure when we let everyone talk in any conditions 😂 Thank you very much for your educative videos, it's been an instant follow!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you and welcome 😊

[@brendans5567]

Quite amazing . I can only imagine how much time was involved in this presentation. Makes me feel happy I always stick with using a preferment !

[@Donkeyiser]

The most comprehensive video out of hundreds I've seen on this topic. I understood around 70% of it. I'd love if you could do a deep dive into what you said about flour to water ratios in levain - how can I vary those ratios to get my desired characteristics?

[@NovitaListyani]

We actually have an old video on sourdough and levain, maybe you want to check it out: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4XCkHd8rJKUras

[@Donkeyiser]

@@NovitaListyani Amazing! Thanks

[@melissamonroe561]

I'm fairly new with sourdough although I did, as a child, make yeast bread with mom. I have checked out so many channels trying 2 learn the secrets of sourdough bcuz I like the flavor & I love the idea of being that 'Baking Grandma,' lol! U have given me so much 2 think about & it may take awhile 2 sort thru things in my head but I know I'm going 2 watch more of ur channel! Thank u 4 ur research, love of baking & education of ur fellow man! U did it with dignity & class! Bravo!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks for sharing!!

[@nouvarae]

As a long time baker, I still learn so much from you! Thank you for your wonderful channel!!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you for your kind words!

[@kayemoore]

This explains so wonderfully and thoroughly what I didn’t know I knew lol. THANK YOU for this deep dive!

[@donforbus2826]

I’ve watched some of your videos and love the science in understanding what is happening when I make poolish, pre-forment. This video was a little over my head but I’m understanding a lot more. Thank you for sharing this wealth of information. 🌹

[@nutechservices5352]

Loving the science and logic of the process you describe in such exquisite detail! Thank you!!!

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad you liked it!

[@lisarct1012]

Thank you! I appreciate you sharing your obviously vast knowledge and understanding. You have answered a question I had been pondering for a while.

[@NovitaListyani]

You are so welcome!

[@equaleyez]

Thank you so much for the research and time you put in these videos. This is the best content a geeky home baker like me can wish for!

[@NovitaListyani]

Our pleasure!

[@wsurfn]

Just wow. This is an amazingly well thought, informative, and produced (loved the dogs barking in the background) video. Your passion and knowledge is impressive. You rip the pronunciation of species and compounds as well as anyone I have met, and I have a relative science background. I have no idea how many people were responsible for this video, but to all, a job very well done.

[@MLCS239]

no holds barred! preach it! this is amazing and I love it!

[@LiefLayer]

I heard the argument from ChainBaker (great experiment but I don't agree on everything he do... because the result are not always great). At first it seemed to me that it made sense but then by doing some tests I realized that there were differences (not big, but the difference were actually there). That's why I started to use them again at least if I don't use lievito madre (sourdough starter)... if I decide to just make fast bread I don't make a preferment but I also don't use the fridge... less flavour but if I want to use the bread for scarpetta or a sandwitch I'm not eating just bread alone (and it's still good, after all it still got maillard reaction. Not complex like sourdough bread or bread made with preferment, but still fresh bread)... sometimes I just add greek yogurt or whey from the greek yogurt that I create at home or even lemon juice... both are acidic and add flavour without the need for a long fermentation. But this was still interesting, I only did research by trying some recipes... I didn't know the science behind it. And I finally understand why fresh baker's yeast give me better result than dry yeast too. The only point I have some doubts about is the contamination problem. Not because it isn't true and possible, but simply because I have noticed that we as modern day humans often tend to exaggerate with health regulations. An example is the total ban on raw milk. Which is true, even in the best of situations it can be contaminated... But in reality in a controlled context it comes out practically sterile from the cow and is immediately refrigerated. Pasteurization does eliminate this initial risk, but only until the milk package is opened. At that point a new contamination can occur which, if milk is consumed without boiling it immediately before, after several days can be similar to that of raw milk. The problem is also that pasteurized milk has a different flavor and different characteristics (it is terrible for creating cheese for example). Same thing with making mayonnaise at home from raw eggs... it's not 100% safe, but mayonnaise is still sour from winegar or lemon juice, most of the times it should be fine. In general I believe that food contamination is quite inevitable. Obviously using common sense and washing your hands and keeping work tools clean are good practices in the kitchen and pure and simple common sense, but I don't think that making bread with the no knead method by doing a long fermentation in the fridge, then cooking the bread, has such a high risk of creating a culture of salmonella sufficient to defeat a healthy individual's immune defenses and cause significant harm. It is possible, but it's like not crossing the street because a car can kill you... or using a sourdough starter made at home (it's sour but nobody know what's really inside). Bacteria are found everywhere, the idea is to prevent harmful bacteria from multiplying enough to cause damage, a baked product like bread is basically quite low risk by nature, because the intense heat will kill most of the bacteria. Even if there is some cross-contamination the new colony of salmonella will be small and the baked bread is not so full of water as the dough so it will be a more difficult environment even without sour. Knowing the information that preferments can reduce the contamination problem while creating better bread is great information, but I think the alarm is a bit exaggerated about the safety of long fermentation.

[@maertscisum7243]

She's using a lot of researched data to make her case, but you use nothing more than your mere speculation. In case you didn't know, salmonella outbreak can kill and had killed many. Even if the probability isn't high, but the impact is fatal. You need to respect people who value their life more than bravado.

[@LiefLayer]

@@maertscisum7243 I just don't think worrying about everything is a good way to enjoy life and I don't need to support that with data. Also the reason I said is not really common is because it is not really common.... there are already many laws to avoid that kind of contamination at the source so what you buy at the supermarket is usually safe (and even what you buy from farmer is usually safe too at least here in Italy laws are strict for selling anything food related). Contamination need time and the right environment that's a fact (bacteria will multiply over time like yeast in bread making and it is a fact that a sourdough starter is sour and it's not a good environment for a lot of bad bacteria). Common sense like washing the hand and keep the kitchen clean are ways to avoid contamination that's a fact too. Even if there is salmonella inside the bread dough high temperature kill it, that's also a fact, that's why she said the problem can be cross contamination after baking. They are all common knowledge that are even in the video accepted as common knowledge so I don't need to support any of that with data. And I don't think home baker's can analyze their own sourdough starter every time they bake with it so they accept the risk that there is some crazy things inside it that's not good... Like we all accept the risk to cross the street and be killed by a crazy car. I did not say to run over the car. It is important to keep hands and tools clean when you cook, but once you have done that there is still a chance to be hit by a car.... No reason to live like that car is waiting for you and avoid experiments and fun in the kitchen. And yes salmonella outbreak can kill a lot of people, but that's true for cars too but most people still own one or even two (I don't own a car btw). We do dangerous stuff everyday. Irrational things too like ban raw milk from the supermarket but still sell poison like cigarettes and alcohol (these too kill a lot of people... BTW I don't drink and I don't smoke).

[@cvan1075]

I like your general attitude however, I believe the parents of the toddlers that were infected by salmonella in Alberta’s daycare centers are now scared because they relied on the public health officers to discover the source of food contamination before the outbreak and it was not “common-sense” that prevented the outbreak that affected 3 locations but scientific research to prevent continued contamination and illness.

[@ariadneWoW]

​​@@maertscisum7243 have you read the paper she cited about the bacterias? Even the paper she cited doesn't prove her point. They showed in the paper that at 21°C, neither bacteria exceeded the level of what they themselves claimed to be dangerous (5 log CFU/g). So assuming we ferment at 5°C, how do you expect it to be anywhere near dangerous according to that study? It's easy to just throw a study at people and hope they don't read it. It's funny though when the study she uses to prove her point actually does the opposite.

[@ariadneWoW]

​@@cvan1075so use your common sense to read the study and see that it doesn't prove the point she's making.

[@dejakju]

This is such a great info on this topic, thanks for the work and sharing. Greetings.

[@leonkrug4841]

Thank you for the video! It was really informative. I always love to find people on the Internet that are intensely passionate about a topic. Don't let the negativity get to you!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you for your kind comment!

[@asard4827]

Wow amazing, detailed, and very informative. Can't wait for new videos!

[@kbrdft]

Love the content. I feel like professional bakers lack resources like this to help them hone in on their craft. There are rules of thumb and learning by experience, and countless baker influencers, but this video provides the knowledge for a baker to begin crafting their own path in a purposeful, scientific way. Much much love. No Ads please: sell me your cookbooks, online courses, and such.

[@kennethsimon960]

Thanks for your great informative video. I use preferments often and it's great to understand the science better thanks to you.

[@sergeanthorvath]

Wow, such a thorough approach to your topics. I love it. Plus I was introduced by you to something I have never heard of before, namely Yudane in bread baking. I am learning so much. Keep it up girl!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks!

[@Lallatwittle]

This video is how I discovered your channel and you made me an instant fan. I'm a fan of preferments, and more so always trying to learn and talk about food chemistry and food science. Next time I deal with someone on preferments, I can just link your video rather than type a wall of text! Thank you for making this video!!!!!!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you too!

[@Lallatwittle]

@@NovitaListyani You're welcome! You did an amazing job on this video!

[@WATCHDAWG1947]

I started baking bout a month ago. I watched and listened to all this lady had to say..I didn't understand hardly any of it. I read the comments and people say wow this is just what I've been looking for..Bravo...now I get it.. I'm going to forget I even saw this and push on ward with learning the art of bread making.

[@cvan1075]

Yes begin and inch by inch your hands will teach your head what you want to know next. Bread-making is an international craft. I just wish that despite war and famine and poverty, everyone can access the flour and internet to master it.

[@danielsalcedo6373]

"Just one word: EXEMPLARY EXPERTISE. Kudos to you for providing the most instructive explanation of the processes I've come across."

[@timtomlinson3182]

Love the detailed scientific information. Amazing job.

[@blondeenotsomuch]

Wow. This is incredible. I wish i was more of an audible learner. I need flow charts, graphs, and ...maybe i need a book with lots of pictures because flavorful bread is a goal worth pursuing.

[@multi_misa72]

Thanks a bunch for this clear and interesting explanation. Yup, i want to re- try the poolish use but youre way.❤

[@micheljodoin531]

Just amazing ! This is a really valuable video ! Thank you !

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad it was helpful!

[@shmulik152]

I can listen to your lectures for hours!! I make challa every friday and it comes out so good after learning so much from you.

[@NovitaListyani]

Wonderful!

[@shmulik152]

I dont use Poolish yet but i use the Yudane method and my challa comes out nice and fluffy. I will give a Poolish a try. @@NovitaListyani

[@shmulik152]

I and i am sure a lot of your viewers and fans would love to see a video of you baking a traditional Challa. Please do!! @@NovitaListyani

[@patw2841]

This is awesome. ❤ smart young folks. Well done and thanks.

[@tonylamartina6729]

Wow. That was way over my head but really enjoyed it. She is obviously a science lover. 😊 Great video. Look forward to many more as a fairly new bread baker.

[@barrychambers4047]

Really interesting Seraphine! Thank you! Going to have to watch this one again!

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@maxbandelli4046]

Excellent video very educational Definitely done all your research well presented Very clear precise and definition of baking is a science ,we've been doing for a long long time .compliments on your video👍

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks for watching!

[@Platypi007]

Just got suggested this video and you have earned a new subscriber. Bread baking and peer reviewed science and food safety and preferments? You're speaking my language!

[@YouTube_can_ESAD]

First time watching your channel but this episode is outstanding, thank you for your work!

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@sethyo66]

Omg, what she said😂 feel like I now have a doctorate in yeast. Very very thorough, thank you.

[@longline]

10 minutes in I am loving this, so much. Salty academic mic drop. And I'm learning nuance. I'm very happy.

[@NovitaListyani]

Great to hear!

[@bcubed72]

I came to baking with a history in brewing/distilling, where it's understood you give the yeast a "head start" before adding to your wort, so that they can better out-compete any undesired yeasts or fungi. It never even occurred to me NOT to preferment!

[@NovitaListyani]

Indeed, giving the yeast a head start is crucial. Thank you very much for sharing.

[@rpeet2000]

Wow! I just found your channel- Fantastic work. I am hooked ❤

[@lindaleroux4218]

I love what you do for everyone...thankyou

[@randycummings9033]

You are my new hero. Thank you for the education!

[@randycummings9033]

To elaborate on my admiration: I bake part time for a nonprofit where the bread I bake ends up at the local Food Bank feeding seniors. I want to “meddle” with the recipe I have to bake just a bit. So I understand….I can take 25% of the total flour and water, Scald it, leave it in the fridge overnight then assemble the bread in the morning. Is this the general idea? There is also an autolyse component where I hydrate the remaining flour for an hour and a half. I think I can figure this out. If you don’t mind, I will let you know the results. (I’ve baked over 300 loaves of this recipe in the past 6 months) PS: For my on-going education, I will consume the rest of your training videos. I will be adding knowledge to knowledge to knowledge making me a better baker.

[@HopeLaFleur1975]

I am an avid pizza maker due to family members that do not want the commercial pizza. So this information is extremely important for me. As some of my dough never gets the results I want. I used to use poolish. Will go back💜🌹🏆🏆🏆

[@cQ2]

Awesome, love all the explanation, lot of information is just a few minutes

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@wengkinlau9580]

Very well presented and explains a lot about bread making.

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks for watching

[@pizzamadesimple]

RESPECT! Your assertions are correct about preferments. If you've done the work and made many mistakes, you know that it takes days to reach the same level of flavor using cold fermentation in a refrigerator as a simple overnight preferment, much less a mother dough. At our restaurant, we have the room necessary to store 5 days worth of dough during the off-season. During high season, we use a poolish mixed the night before. We only have 2-3 days worth of storage during summer and there's no way to use our off-season method.

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you for your feedback, it's nice to have your input.

[@nicksutton6373]

Only one thing to say... Very well done and thanks!

[@dopapier]

A very intelligent and clear presentation. Thank you.

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@katielady873]

Awesome video. I definitely had to slow the playback speed because of the sheer amount of information that I need to process.

[@johnnyong2341]

Thanks for the info and sharing your vlog 😊👍☕🍰

[@randrescastaneda]

OMG. What a fantastic explanation. Thank you so much

[@NovitaListyani]

You're very welcome!

[@AJBTemplar]

And this was an incredibly informative and erudite lesson. Thank you.

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@axellouisy-joseph2771]

30:29 almost didn't catch it lmao great video as always

[@JeffO-]

Somewhere I heard her say 'wonder' (as in Wonder Bread). Unintentional I'm sure.

[@taj-ulislam6902]

Bravo! You are the lady. I love your scientific method. I am not a cook but getting interested after you quoted the First Law of Thermodynamics in another video.

[@hgwellsmin]

You compressed a week length lecture to a 30 min video. lol. I also watched those videos that claimed using preferment is not necessary for home bakers. I thought it was pretty interesting perspective, but now you convinced me that's not a good idea. Thanks for the detailed information. I'm gonna watch this video again to swallow. I'm gonna use poolish again.

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad it was helpful!

[@canakaoglu7158]

Great, helpful content, thanks for your investigations!

[@EspenAndreassen77]

Awesome video as usual 🎉 Thank you for sharing your knowledge. It has to be a lot of research and work behind this… and it looks like it’s all one long take.? Very good 😊

[@NovitaListyani]

My pleasure!

[@Laurenski67]

I only clicked on this video bc I was wondering what preferments were, and they're not applicable to me as I'm not planning on baking any bread. (I thought it was about fermenting veggies like kimchi.) Wow, Novita doesn't mess around; you better know what you're talking about if you're going to challenge her 😏

[@thentil]

This was fantastic. Thank you!

[@NovitaListyani]

You're so welcome!

[@nathanlopez2905]

Can I just point out how seamlessly she delivered SOOO much lecture. AND how she effortlessly dismantled all of those huge words!!! My word! 👏 I did want to add that while I’m new to the channel, I have incorporated poolish and yudane thanks to your advice and have had great results. Is there any advice you’d have for working with 100% whole wheat flour? I mill my own flour and unfortunately I can’t really find anyone that works with 100% whole wheat flour and has good results.

[@k.h.6991]

Check out Elly' whole wheat sourdough breads. Right here on KZbin.

[@nathanlopez2905]

@@k.h.6991thank you I’ll definitely take a look. I’m hoping for more recipes outside of sourdough, not that I’m opposed to sourdough…just looking for variety.

[@JOHNCHENSJCA]

❤ the science. Now I know why my beginner’s sourdough is not rising enough. Gotta watch this vid again. Thank you, Seraphine!

[@stauffap]

Do you have a video where you taste the different methods side by side? If not, i would obviously be very interesting in such a video. All this science is of course nice, but in the end we have to eat the products and the question arises how much of a difference it makes and if it's worth the effort. Great video! I'm very impressed that you even had the idea to look at the scientific litearature. Most people never go there.

[@londobali]

Widih.. detail banget researchnya.. mantaaaappp.. following.

[@mosiah9205]

This is the first video I’ve seen of this channel, immediate sub. She came out SWINGING!

[@Clewis333]

Great content. Lines up with my experience petty well. Been trying to get the taste of a 2-3 day preferment that still has good gluten structure. The struggle continues

[@randycummings9033]

Question 1: I have just begun to learn about Tangzhong and Yudane. I have not yet attempted to use this method in making this recipe. However, I keep copious and accurate notes on each bake. I promise I will report to you my findings. I typically bake 2-3 times a week baking 8 loaves each time. Question 2: refer to question 1. 😊 Question 3: I have a separate room in my home I call “The Bakery”. I typically start the autolyse at 5:00 am. The room is in the low 60’s but warms up to the upper 70’s in about an hour. That number will change as we move into the summer. I keep a record of time, room temperature and dough temperature among other metrics. If I could, I would bake all day, every day. Right now, I am working to raise the funds to build a micro-bakery. So, work gets in the way of my passion. I am an amateur baker.

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks!

[@randycummings9033]

I completed yesterday and taste tested this morning. The results: I made the Yudane version first. As a control, I used the exact same ingredients and amounts. I always measure in grams. The next day, I made the original recipe. Again, I followed the controls. The results: The crust on the Yudane bread was wonderfully chewy. The crumb in the Yudane version was moist, tighter and had a nicer "mouth feel". The Autolyse only version, crust was chewy but less so. the crumb was looser yet had good structure. When I buttered a non-toasty slice the butter wanted to tear the crumb. Not so on the Yudane version. I will try a third test utilizing the Yudane method along with the Autolyse method. The recipe is simple: bread flour, whole grain flour, water, yeast, salt, oats, olive oil, and honey or molasses. I am heading out now to deliver bread to the local food bank. Cheers!🙂@@NovitaListyani

[@fajzulin]

Wow. Amazing. Instant subscription. Thank you.

[@garylester8621]

Holy cow, my slow brain hurts. I agree with Novita, pre ferments are much better. I have a 12 year old starter (it might be much older) It's so strong that it's scary. I'm a lucky man. Baking bread is very satisfying. 77 year old Texan here.

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks for sharing!

[@dfhepner]

I wish you would write a book on bread with the science. I found one of your videos and have watched most of the baking ones since. A book with the research that you have done would be so useful to understanding what to do with bread.

[@NovitaListyani]

Maybe one day!

[@craiglandes754]

I think a case can also be made for having a bit of OCD. 🙂I love these videos because the level of detail, research backing and factual analysis are just superb! I also happen to have this obsessive-compulsive need to understand everything, and so for me, these videos are perfect. Plus, the end results can be easily incorporated into whatever I'm making. My current learning project is all about tangzhong, which I learned all about in one of your other videos. Thank you very much for all your work!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks!

[@cvan1075]

Oh ! Just read the term tangzhong in Cook’s Country and now have to learn-if that is what a preferment is. I thought pre-ferment was prefer-ment

[@craiglandes754]

@@cvan1075 I, too, read it as "preferment," meaning some sort of legal issue like an access easement. LOL! And no, the tangzhong isn't the same as pre-fermenting.

[@alyeskamaritime7429]

Thinking about arguing with Seraphine on the merits of pre-ferments? Gotta say it: "That's a bad idea."

[@phillipbastow8743]

I have found a person who knows what she is talking about and can help people like me to improve my bread making.

[@kflindahl123]

Great information and presented well indeed:) Ive been a hobby baker for some time and now im on the quest to create a bread with a thin and crispy crust. If you have any tips/ideas pls let me know. Again, great videos and pls keep making them:)

[@louiscohen]

Thanks for the great explanations. Previously, I had thought that preferments vs Long Fermentation just developed different distributions of microorganisms, but I didn't know about the room temp pathogens. I started baking with Hamelman's "Bread" and quickly found the most success with an overnight room temperature poolish for high whole grain breads. BTW, French bakers would have said "Polonaise" for Polish so the origin of "poolish" is mysterious. I resisted sourdough because it seemed too complicated. Finally, during COVID, I bought "Bittman Bread" which preaches Mark Bittman's sourdough technique. All I ever got were some very tasty frisbees. But I really wanted to use the sourdough rye chapter in "Bread"; I finally got a nice rye culture going and I make Hamelman's 100% Workday whole wheat and various ryes from "Bread" and "The Rye Baker". Nearly all of these use a levain which ferments from 12-16 hrs at room temp.

[@NovitaListyani]

From Page 42 of "Taste of Bread" by Prof. Raymond Calvel, I quote here "The poolish is a relatively liquid fermented culture, leavened with baker's yeast in advance of dough mixing and prepared with only part of the flour and water. When the dough is made, the rest of the flour, water, yeast, and salt are added, and an appropriate production schedule is then followed until the baking of the bread is completed. This method of breadmaking was first developed in Poland during the 1840s, from whence its name. It was then used in Vienna by Viennese bakers, and it was during this same period that it became known in France." The renowned Professor Raymond Calvel (1913 - 30 August 2005) was a bread expert and professor of baking at ENSMIC in Paris, France. (source: Wikipedia)

[@louiscohen]

@@NovitaListyani From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-ferment "The common, but undocumented, origin given for the term poolish is that it was first used by Polish bakers around 1840, hence its name, and as a method was brought to France in the beginning of the 1920s. "Poolish" however is an old English version of "Polish", whereas the term seems to be most used in France (where "polonais" is the word for "Polish"). Some nineteenth-century sources use the homophone "pouliche", a French word that typically means a filly.[15] With either spelling, the term only appears in French sources towards the last part of the nineteenth century. There is not currently any credible explanation for the origin of the term." The origin of the term "poolish" is unknown but the attribution to Polish bakers is a widely spread invented etymology. I used an overnight poolish for yeasted breads for years before I finally got my rye sourdough culture going, and got a B & T proofer.

[@NovitaListyani]

Hmm, I remember reading that Wikipedia article, and then later on, I was somehow convinced by "Taste of Bread" by Prof. Calvel and didn't give it a much consideration, now, come to think of it, it's kind of unusual. Thank you so much for raising this issue.

[@AvGodd1]

Wow! You earned my respect. I can't say that I retained any of that info but I'm subscribing.....and nobody ought to ever 'dis' you again!!! :)

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks!

[@lesbutler273]

Cannot over estimate how much I love this channel. Meaning I really really love this channel. ...An average room temperature of 27-29 C? Mine is 17-19 C. So there is significant variable.

[@NovitaListyani]

thanks! Yes, indeed, the temperature here can be "very ideal" for fermentation :)

[@BenChengnz]

Love it ❤

[@spicemasterii6775]

First time here. Fantastic video and information.

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@diegocampista3126]

Seraphine, is it possible we could get an explanation of the differences between wheat flours? And the ones we should avoid, if there are any. Thanks!

[@NovitaListyani]

Have you watched this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/q3_SqXxnYs90bpo ?

[@diegocampista3126]

I have not, thank you!@@NovitaListyani

[@thuy-lamdo4765]

Great knowledge as usual. I have some questions around this topic : if we make a very liquidy levain, is it the same as a poolish but made from sourdough? In that case the "poolish" is more complex than a yeasted one? Is there any reason why someone would use many preferments in one recipe? Because in my understanding, using any of these preferments is for the same reasons (very well explained in the video). We just choose the type of preferment depending on the result we desire. I prefer sourdough because I think it covers all of the problems. I might be wrong here. Then recently I came across a lean dough recipe that uses MANY preferments including sourdough, and I'm just not really convinced. I'm interested in knowing what are you theories. Thanks again for the video!

[@jzagaja]

Very high quality material, amazing author. At minute 12 we see why western style of bread is to ferment in a fridge. Despite the flavour I think fermentation is mainly to reduce phytic acid in pH around 4.5 so that we can get any good from grains. Here in Poland we are more focused on rye and ancient rye than wheat. I would go further - took grain and ferment/sprout a whole then blend (possibly in vacuum). Buckwheat sprouts very fast and it easy to blend, rye is not. Then we must add proteins and a bit dry flour to hold shape so trial and error needed. We are concerned about chemicals added to bread but wait - natural enzymes added reduces during baking to amino acids right?

[@whiteshadowfare]

Thank you for the wonderful information! Would love to know the benefits of a preferment along with whole wheat/grains

[@NovitaListyani]

At 11:06, and also 30:34, we discussed two papers that support our argument. From the first paper we learned that raising the fresh yeast concentration to 6% and, at the same time, lowering the temperature for the dough to ferment at 5°C would give us more aroma and flavor in the crumb, this is also supported by the study done in the second paper, but the second paper informed us that, for the crust, it was not the low temperature, it was the high temperature (32°C) paired with a high fresh yeast concentration that brings us a more pleasant flavor in the crust. The experiment in the second paper was based on whole wheat flour. So, by using a ripened preferment that has been fermented slowly at low temperatures, then incorporating it into the final dough and letting the dough ferment at 32°C, by logical speculation, this could give us both benefits. Benefiting the crumb, producing more aroma through a cold long fermentation, and also improving the crust, through the Maillard Reaction of a final dough fermented at higher temperature. Long cold fermentation does not allow the baker to do both of these techniques together.

[@shyft09]

Wow, this could be made into 2 or 3 videos I think 👏👏👏 a lot of info for a newbie like me, but it was great

[@dpang14]

Thank you for this!!!

[@NovitaListyani]

You're so welcome!

[@ryanoconnor8207]

You're amazing!!!! ❤❤❤

[@a.zavala2355]

I think this is a scientific touche'.....Well done!😊 Thank you for the lesson. I bake bread but never knew the exacting science-based data. You sure do.👍

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks for watching!

[@EmadFayek16]

@hi Novita, congratulations for this once more great video . On a different note I have a question, I have a gas oven with 3 options to bake … normal baking , conv. Baking and air fryer … do you have a position if I can use the air fryer baking setting instead of the convectional baking ? and assuming I will use it at the same temp that I use to bake the yeast bread ?

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you for your kind comment. As for your oven, I have yet to experiment with the air fryer or look into the science of it, so I'm not sure I can be of much help.

[@EmadFayek16]

@@NovitaListyani great …. I will wait for your evidence based advice as usual 👏👏👏

[@zorsts]

I will keep prefermenting, thank you for the presentation, well spoken.

[@NovitaListyani]

You're very welcome