The Case for Preferments | Preferments vs. Long Fermentation

[@AlkonKomm]

there is also just a very simple, pragmatic reason for using them: I can let my preferment pretty much sit around for ages until it develops a nice, boozy aroma and even if the gluten is completely gone by the time I end up using it, I will still make good bread, because only a small fraction of the flour is used for the preferment. If I cold ferment the whole thing for a long time (especially rye or anything with a high enzyme activity) you can absolutely fuck up and overdo it and by the time you want to bake your bread it is already overfermented. so I would argue preferments just give you more control over the process.

[@SanctuaryGardenLiving]

Can the missing gluten then just be replaced by swapping in a little gluten flour?

[@henrikhvass5595]

This is the most accurate and studied resume of the bread making process. In my professional experiece using exactly to the point everything that is explained by evidence , I must say that this is an extraordinary and precise resume. Thanks for your incredibly dedication and efforts.

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks for sharing!

[@rebeccapurvis4481]

I just discovered your videos last night and have been blown away by your incredibly detailed and informative discussions. The section on the dangers cross-contaminatiom by no knead dough is something should be heard/read by every bread baker. I'm primarily a sourdough baker and haven't made no knead bread since I first started baking, but in all the years I've made bread, I've never heard anything about this. I truly can't believe that this isn't commonly known information. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us. I really, REALLY appreciate it!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you for your kind comment, and I'm happy to hear that the information was useful to you! Indeed, the dangers of contamination can be quite serious and should be known by more people. I've read enough about unfortunate outbreaks to be worried 😨

[@markf3494]

I have been making sourdough bread for about 15 years and only this year started using a preferment. It took my 2 day bread making to 3 days but the flavor is worth it. I only knew a little of the science behind it but got most of my information from reading professional baking books and adapting it to my starter. You have greatly increased my knowledge of the science behind the art of breadmaking. I don't use commercial yeast, but all of the information you provided was useful. Thank you!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you too! Glad to read your comment.

[@benjamindejonge3624]

The only logical explanation I’ve ever heard in this most frustrating and complicated matter

[@matthewrogers237]

This was incredible. I’ve been a pretty obsessed sourdough enthusiast for the last year. And I had heard some of this science but this was by far the most comprehensive explanation I’ve come across.

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@jameswalsh1941]

Hello I have just discovered this channel and i am already a fan. I am a professional baker with over 40 years experience and i find your mix of science and practically so refreshing, I am always on the lookout for new ideas and knowledge and here I believe I can find something new, The methods you are demonstrating are not new to me but the explanations are giving me a lot of new ideas, there is nothing in the world more satisfying to me than the sight of a perfect bread coming out of the oven and I believe you may be able to help me do my job better. Thank you

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you! Glad to hear from a seasoned baker with such a long experience. A better insight can indeed bring out many untapped wonders of bread making.

[@RonMarotte]

Wow! Wow! Wow! This is a master's class for all bread makers. And outstanding presentation of the various components that interplay in bread making. Just sensational.

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@ronaldo5276]

Excellent review as always. Worth emphasizing that a huge benefit of preferments is when it comes to enriched doughs. A long fermentation will end up with a very different, less desirable chemical profile and lack any control.

[@NovitaListyani]

Indeed, having too many aroma compounds isn't necessarily a good thing.

[@Osama_Abbas]

This is an underrated channel with great content. Please Novita and Seraphine, use ads to grow your channel. It really worth a try at least.

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks for the suggestion!

[@williamfotiou7577]

Please list who underrated it. Thank you.

[@1stSchoolofLife]

KZbin's algorithm. I have been looking for a channel like this and only just discovered it.​@williamfotiou7577

[@coridaw715]

​@@williamfotiou7577I think they are saying it doesn't get the attention it deserves.

[@williamfotiou7577]

@coridaw715 attention and being underrated have 2 different connotations. But......I'm old enough to understand that. When you say " this is underrated " it's actually an insult or backhanded compliment. Can you please comment back after your 16th birthday. Thank you

[@MarissaT27]

Brava!!! I had been searching KZbin for precisely this type of information that no cookbook on baking provides. Thank you! ❤

[@xpahos]

"Handbook on Sourdough Biotechnology" by Marco Gobbetti, Michael Ganzle

[@alexaguillon7904]

I’ve just began my pizza dough journey and I have been racking this question in my head for months now. I’m so happy I stumbled upon this video

[@AiPlus13]

Wow. What a presentation I really learned a lot. I've been watching a lot of baking vid lately and I'm so happy to discover this channel. This is on the university lectures level. I watched a lot of it during the lockdown just for a change and been a fan of Joanne Chang since then. You are now part of that list. Thank you for sharing. I'll definitely binge-watch in this channel.❤ Kudos😊

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks

[@TheoboldJamzen]

wow! especially thanks for the glutathione info ... been doing 100% biga-no-stress (18C 18hours) with 'poor' flour in tropics, 90F 90%Humidity ... recently tried some glutathione, not understanding it would make the poor flour weaker for pizza, and overferement fast/fall down ... now using a pinch of vitamin C powder/ascorbic acid with some better results on increasing dough strength and dough ballls for pizza ... its about balance sometimes .... expereince. thanks for sharing ur work ... Good Stuff!

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad it was helpful!

[@jackskalski3699]

Great video as usual. To be honest the levain aspect of bread baking was my Eureka moment 1 month ago. No one really spelled it out to me exactly and I was in the mindset, that well yeah there are these vague benefits but people claim they have great bread without them so in my mind it was just a recipe thing. Than I realised that this is the essence of taste and structure and all of these aromas. Than I realised there are recipes that have multi stage levains with specific tempartures in different stages just to get the right balance of microorganisms and compounds mix. Than YT notified me about your video just adding the science behind it :) Awesome and keep it up. Love your channel and also the "no BS baking" channel :)

[@jackskalski3699]

It's worth mentioning that as home bakers we are not that much confined by the economy of baking so we can have a wider playing field by experimenting with combining sourdough starter derived levains with yeasted preferments in a single recipe. Food for thought :D

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you for sharing!

[@Moneyalmenial]

Casual baker here, loved the video. Praise be to the algorithm for bringing me here.

[@nouvarae]

As a long time baker, I still learn so much from you! Thank you for your wonderful channel!!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you for your kind words!

[@rodneyferris4089]

This is so essential to anyone wanting to bake at home or professionally. I think that today we've even dumbed down home baking by either insisting on using commercial yeast, loading sugar to "prove" yeast that was recently purchased, or these huge videos about the making of sourdough that sounds more like a massive chemical experiment, than thinking it out by remembering the cooks of the early days of our continent and on the settling of the Plains and the West Coast who had to make their own Barm! and they didn't want to make bread that was full of holes and was so sour and "stinky" so that the kids wouldn't eat it. Your presentation make so much sense ! I've been baking for 40 years for my family and friends and I have always sought to bake the most naturally as possible. I've always had the best success by pre-fermenting my starter. I've also learned that sourdough starter is almost indestructible unless you burn it as we do in the oven... or so I thought and I've found that it doesn't really all die and there is a fermentation that keeps on going after a bread is baked. Well constructed and naturally fermented dough either with wild yeast or commercial yeast is always delicious, healthy and is almost close to hypoallergenic !

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks for sharing. Really really appreciate your comment.

[@Donkeyiser]

The most comprehensive video out of hundreds I've seen on this topic. I understood around 70% of it. I'd love if you could do a deep dive into what you said about flour to water ratios in levain - how can I vary those ratios to get my desired characteristics?

[@NovitaListyani]

We actually have an old video on sourdough and levain, maybe you want to check it out: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4XCkHd8rJKUras

[@Donkeyiser]

@@NovitaListyani Amazing! Thanks

[@melissamonroe561]

I'm fairly new with sourdough although I did, as a child, make yeast bread with mom. I have checked out so many channels trying 2 learn the secrets of sourdough bcuz I like the flavor & I love the idea of being that 'Baking Grandma,' lol! U have given me so much 2 think about & it may take awhile 2 sort thru things in my head but I know I'm going 2 watch more of ur channel! Thank u 4 ur research, love of baking & education of ur fellow man! U did it with dignity & class! Bravo!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks for sharing!!

[@kbrdft]

Love the content. I feel like professional bakers lack resources like this to help them hone in on their craft. There are rules of thumb and learning by experience, and countless baker influencers, but this video provides the knowledge for a baker to begin crafting their own path in a purposeful, scientific way. Much much love. No Ads please: sell me your cookbooks, online courses, and such.

[@LiefLayer]

I heard the argument from ChainBaker (great experiment but I don't agree on everything he do... because the result are not always great). At first it seemed to me that it made sense but then by doing some tests I realized that there were differences (not big, but the difference were actually there). That's why I started to use them again at least if I don't use lievito madre (sourdough starter)... if I decide to just make fast bread I don't make a preferment but I also don't use the fridge... less flavour but if I want to use the bread for scarpetta or a sandwitch I'm not eating just bread alone (and it's still good, after all it still got maillard reaction. Not complex like sourdough bread or bread made with preferment, but still fresh bread)... sometimes I just add greek yogurt or whey from the greek yogurt that I create at home or even lemon juice... both are acidic and add flavour without the need for a long fermentation. But this was still interesting, I only did research by trying some recipes... I didn't know the science behind it. And I finally understand why fresh baker's yeast give me better result than dry yeast too. The only point I have some doubts about is the contamination problem. Not because it isn't true and possible, but simply because I have noticed that we as modern day humans often tend to exaggerate with health regulations. An example is the total ban on raw milk. Which is true, even in the best of situations it can be contaminated... But in reality in a controlled context it comes out practically sterile from the cow and is immediately refrigerated. Pasteurization does eliminate this initial risk, but only until the milk package is opened. At that point a new contamination can occur which, if milk is consumed without boiling it immediately before, after several days can be similar to that of raw milk. The problem is also that pasteurized milk has a different flavor and different characteristics (it is terrible for creating cheese for example). Same thing with making mayonnaise at home from raw eggs... it's not 100% safe, but mayonnaise is still sour from winegar or lemon juice, most of the times it should be fine. In general I believe that food contamination is quite inevitable. Obviously using common sense and washing your hands and keeping work tools clean are good practices in the kitchen and pure and simple common sense, but I don't think that making bread with the no knead method by doing a long fermentation in the fridge, then cooking the bread, has such a high risk of creating a culture of salmonella sufficient to defeat a healthy individual's immune defenses and cause significant harm. It is possible, but it's like not crossing the street because a car can kill you... or using a sourdough starter made at home (it's sour but nobody know what's really inside). Bacteria are found everywhere, the idea is to prevent harmful bacteria from multiplying enough to cause damage, a baked product like bread is basically quite low risk by nature, because the intense heat will kill most of the bacteria. Even if there is some cross-contamination the new colony of salmonella will be small and the baked bread is not so full of water as the dough so it will be a more difficult environment even without sour. Knowing the information that preferments can reduce the contamination problem while creating better bread is great information, but I think the alarm is a bit exaggerated about the safety of long fermentation.

[@maertscisum]

She's using a lot of researched data to make her case, but you use nothing more than your mere speculation. In case you didn't know, salmonella outbreak can kill and had killed many. Even if the probability isn't high, but the impact is fatal. You need to respect people who value their life more than bravado.

[@LiefLayer]

@@maertscisum I just don't think worrying about everything is a good way to enjoy life and I don't need to support that with data. Also the reason I said is not really common is because it is not really common.... there are already many laws to avoid that kind of contamination at the source so what you buy at the supermarket is usually safe (and even what you buy from farmer is usually safe too at least here in Italy laws are strict for selling anything food related). Contamination need time and the right environment that's a fact (bacteria will multiply over time like yeast in bread making and it is a fact that a sourdough starter is sour and it's not a good environment for a lot of bad bacteria). Common sense like washing the hand and keep the kitchen clean are ways to avoid contamination that's a fact too. Even if there is salmonella inside the bread dough high temperature kill it, that's also a fact, that's why she said the problem can be cross contamination after baking. They are all common knowledge that are even in the video accepted as common knowledge so I don't need to support any of that with data. And I don't think home baker's can analyze their own sourdough starter every time they bake with it so they accept the risk that there is some crazy things inside it that's not good... Like we all accept the risk to cross the street and be killed by a crazy car. I did not say to run over the car. It is important to keep hands and tools clean when you cook, but once you have done that there is still a chance to be hit by a car.... No reason to live like that car is waiting for you and avoid experiments and fun in the kitchen. And yes salmonella outbreak can kill a lot of people, but that's true for cars too but most people still own one or even two (I don't own a car btw). We do dangerous stuff everyday. Irrational things too like ban raw milk from the supermarket but still sell poison like cigarettes and alcohol (these too kill a lot of people... BTW I don't drink and I don't smoke).

[@cvan1075]

I like your general attitude however, I believe the parents of the toddlers that were infected by salmonella in Alberta’s daycare centers are now scared because they relied on the public health officers to discover the source of food contamination before the outbreak and it was not “common-sense” that prevented the outbreak that affected 3 locations but scientific research to prevent continued contamination and illness.

[@ariadneWoW]

​​@@maertscisum have you read the paper she cited about the bacterias? Even the paper she cited doesn't prove her point. They showed in the paper that at 21°C, neither bacteria exceeded the level of what they themselves claimed to be dangerous (5 log CFU/g). So assuming we ferment at 5°C, how do you expect it to be anywhere near dangerous according to that study? It's easy to just throw a study at people and hope they don't read it. It's funny though when the study she uses to prove her point actually does the opposite.

[@ariadneWoW]

​@@cvan1075so use your common sense to read the study and see that it doesn't prove the point she's making.

[@maxfigueras752]

I am fascinated by your channel, I have only seen two videos now, but each look like a project for a college thesis! I love how you make the scientific terms more approachable but not infantilize us, as if the common public wasn't able to understand 'big words', or make a google search for definitions. It's so sad that the Internet mixes people with so much talent and who make great efforts to produce quality content, and people who will not finish watching your video before spilling their thoughts mindlessly. It's something that we have to endure when we let everyone talk in any conditions 😂 Thank you very much for your educative videos, it's been an instant follow!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you and welcome 😊

[@HopeLaFleur1975]

I am an avid pizza maker due to family members that do not want the commercial pizza. So this information is extremely important for me. As some of my dough never gets the results I want. I used to use poolish. Will go back💜🌹🏆🏆🏆

[@Lallatwittle]

This video is how I discovered your channel and you made me an instant fan. I'm a fan of preferments, and more so always trying to learn and talk about food chemistry and food science. Next time I deal with someone on preferments, I can just link your video rather than type a wall of text! Thank you for making this video!!!!!!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you too!

[@Lallatwittle]

@@NovitaListyani You're welcome! You did an amazing job on this video!

[@leonkrug4841]

Thank you for the video! It was really informative. I always love to find people on the Internet that are intensely passionate about a topic. Don't let the negativity get to you!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you for your kind comment!

[@danielsalcedo6373]

"Just one word: EXEMPLARY EXPERTISE. Kudos to you for providing the most instructive explanation of the processes I've come across."

[@WATCHDAWG1947]

I started baking bout a month ago. I watched and listened to all this lady had to say..I didn't understand hardly any of it. I read the comments and people say wow this is just what I've been looking for..Bravo...now I get it.. I'm going to forget I even saw this and push on ward with learning the art of bread making.

[@cvan1075]

Yes begin and inch by inch your hands will teach your head what you want to know next. Bread-making is an international craft. I just wish that despite war and famine and poverty, everyone can access the flour and internet to master it.

[@Platypi007]

Just got suggested this video and you have earned a new subscriber. Bread baking and peer reviewed science and food safety and preferments? You're speaking my language!

[@brendans5567]

Quite amazing . I can only imagine how much time was involved in this presentation. Makes me feel happy I always stick with using a preferment !

[@sergeanthorvath]

Wow, such a thorough approach to your topics. I love it. Plus I was introduced by you to something I have never heard of before, namely Yudane in bread baking. I am learning so much. Keep it up girl!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks!

[@donforbus2826]

I’ve watched some of your videos and love the science in understanding what is happening when I make poolish, pre-forment. This video was a little over my head but I’m understanding a lot more. Thank you for sharing this wealth of information. 🌹

[@shmulik152]

I can listen to your lectures for hours!! I make challa every friday and it comes out so good after learning so much from you.

[@NovitaListyani]

Wonderful!

[@shmulik152]

I dont use Poolish yet but i use the Yudane method and my challa comes out nice and fluffy. I will give a Poolish a try. @@NovitaListyani

[@shmulik152]

I and i am sure a lot of your viewers and fans would love to see a video of you baking a traditional Challa. Please do!! @@NovitaListyani

[@longline]

10 minutes in I am loving this, so much. Salty academic mic drop. And I'm learning nuance. I'm very happy.

[@NovitaListyani]

Great to hear!

[@equaleyez]

Thank you so much for the research and time you put in these videos. This is the best content a geeky home baker like me can wish for!

[@NovitaListyani]

Our pleasure!

[@blondeenotsomuch]

Wow. This is incredible. I wish i was more of an audible learner. I need flow charts, graphs, and ...maybe i need a book with lots of pictures because flavorful bread is a goal worth pursuing.

[@anuragparcha4483]

I now feel like I have a Phd in bread baking. Wow, this video was awesome. Great work! Instantly subscribing!

[@pizzamadesimple]

RESPECT! Your assertions are correct about preferments. If you've done the work and made many mistakes, you know that it takes days to reach the same level of flavor using cold fermentation in a refrigerator as a simple overnight preferment, much less a mother dough. At our restaurant, we have the room necessary to store 5 days worth of dough during the off-season. During high season, we use a poolish mixed the night before. We only have 2-3 days worth of storage during summer and there's no way to use our off-season method.

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you for your feedback, it's nice to have your input.

[@Laurenski67]

I only clicked on this video bc I was wondering what preferments were, and they're not applicable to me as I'm not planning on baking any bread. (I thought it was about fermenting veggies like kimchi.) Wow, Novita doesn't mess around; you better know what you're talking about if you're going to challenge her 😏

[@bcubed72]

I came to baking with a history in brewing/distilling, where it's understood you give the yeast a "head start" before adding to your wort, so that they can better out-compete any undesired yeasts or fungi. It never even occurred to me NOT to preferment!

[@NovitaListyani]

Indeed, giving the yeast a head start is crucial. Thank you very much for sharing.

[@sdvcv]

I agree with your main points. Just ignore the ignorant people and let them continue with their subpar ways.

[@sethyo66]

Omg, what she said😂 feel like I now have a doctorate in yeast. Very very thorough, thank you.

[@hgwellsmin]

You compressed a week length lecture to a 30 min video. lol. I also watched those videos that claimed using preferment is not necessary for home bakers. I thought it was pretty interesting perspective, but now you convinced me that's not a good idea. Thanks for the detailed information. I'm gonna watch this video again to swallow. I'm gonna use poolish again.

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad it was helpful!

[@nutechservices5352]

Loving the science and logic of the process you describe in such exquisite detail! Thank you!!!

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad you liked it!

[@smnksorc6663]

It's definetely good to know about the risks about cross contamination and the bad microorganisms. It would be nice if they did another study at colder temperatures though. In our bakery we make a cold proofed spelt-potato bread and it ferments for 20+ hours in a cold enviroment. Germanys food safety is really strict so I don't think it can be that risky to cold proof bread. Yeah pre ferment decreases the risk but let's say you make a poolish with 50% of the total flour in the bread and proof it for 20 hours in the fridge . If you handle the preferment and the resulting dough you still have to be careful and avoid cross contamination .(Because it was in the temperature danger zone for longer than 4-6 hours) The risk is still there,it's just less likely. I really hope they do more studies.

[@JOHNCHENSJCA]

❤ the science. Now I know why my beginner’s sourdough is not rising enough. Gotta watch this vid again. Thank you, Seraphine!

[@altrogeruvah]

When I see these arguments online, all I read is "I'm too lazy to commit to this one extra step, so I'll ruin it for everyone"! With that said, I don't use poolish when I make pizzas at home, simply because I don't have the right oven setup to make a pizza that'll taste good with poolish, so I just skip it. I have made bread with preferment before though and it was amazing.

[@garylester8621]

Holy cow, my slow brain hurts. I agree with Novita, pre ferments are much better. I have a 12 year old starter (it might be much older) It's so strong that it's scary. I'm a lucky man. Baking bread is very satisfying. 77 year old Texan here.

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks for sharing!

[@kayemoore]

This explains so wonderfully and thoroughly what I didn’t know I knew lol. THANK YOU for this deep dive!

[@jzagaja]

Very high quality material, amazing author. At minute 12 we see why western style of bread is to ferment in a fridge. Despite the flavour I think fermentation is mainly to reduce phytic acid in pH around 4.5 so that we can get any good from grains. Here in Poland we are more focused on rye and ancient rye than wheat. I would go further - took grain and ferment/sprout a whole then blend (possibly in vacuum). Buckwheat sprouts very fast and it easy to blend, rye is not. Then we must add proteins and a bit dry flour to hold shape so trial and error needed. We are concerned about chemicals added to bread but wait - natural enzymes added reduces during baking to amino acids right?

[@mosiah9205]

This is the first video I’ve seen of this channel, immediate sub. She came out SWINGING!

[@alyeskamaritime7429]

Thinking about arguing with Seraphine on the merits of pre-ferments? Gotta say it: "That's a bad idea."

[@tonylamartina6729]

Wow. That was way over my head but really enjoyed it. She is obviously a science lover. 😊 Great video. Look forward to many more as a fairly new bread baker.

[@barrychambers4047]

Really interesting Seraphine! Thank you! Going to have to watch this one again!

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@nicksutton6373]

Only one thing to say... Very well done and thanks!

[@phillipbastow8743]

I have found a person who knows what she is talking about and can help people like me to improve my bread making.

[@lesbutler273]

Cannot over estimate how much I love this channel. Meaning I really really love this channel. ...An average room temperature of 27-29 C? Mine is 17-19 C. So there is significant variable.

[@NovitaListyani]

thanks! Yes, indeed, the temperature here can be "very ideal" for fermentation :)

[@lisarct1012]

Thank you! I appreciate you sharing your obviously vast knowledge and understanding. You have answered a question I had been pondering for a while.

[@NovitaListyani]

You are so welcome!

[@randycummings9033]

You are my new hero. Thank you for the education!

[@randycummings9033]

To elaborate on my admiration: I bake part time for a nonprofit where the bread I bake ends up at the local Food Bank feeding seniors. I want to “meddle” with the recipe I have to bake just a bit. So I understand….I can take 25% of the total flour and water, Scald it, leave it in the fridge overnight then assemble the bread in the morning. Is this the general idea? There is also an autolyse component where I hydrate the remaining flour for an hour and a half. I think I can figure this out. If you don’t mind, I will let you know the results. (I’ve baked over 300 loaves of this recipe in the past 6 months) PS: For my on-going education, I will consume the rest of your training videos. I will be adding knowledge to knowledge to knowledge making me a better baker.

[@randycummings9033]

Question 1: I have just begun to learn about Tangzhong and Yudane. I have not yet attempted to use this method in making this recipe. However, I keep copious and accurate notes on each bake. I promise I will report to you my findings. I typically bake 2-3 times a week baking 8 loaves each time. Question 2: refer to question 1. 😊 Question 3: I have a separate room in my home I call “The Bakery”. I typically start the autolyse at 5:00 am. The room is in the low 60’s but warms up to the upper 70’s in about an hour. That number will change as we move into the summer. I keep a record of time, room temperature and dough temperature among other metrics. If I could, I would bake all day, every day. Right now, I am working to raise the funds to build a micro-bakery. So, work gets in the way of my passion. I am an amateur baker.

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks!

[@randycummings9033]

I completed yesterday and taste tested this morning. The results: I made the Yudane version first. As a control, I used the exact same ingredients and amounts. I always measure in grams. The next day, I made the original recipe. Again, I followed the controls. The results: The crust on the Yudane bread was wonderfully chewy. The crumb in the Yudane version was moist, tighter and had a nicer "mouth feel". The Autolyse only version, crust was chewy but less so. the crumb was looser yet had good structure. When I buttered a non-toasty slice the butter wanted to tear the crumb. Not so on the Yudane version. I will try a third test utilizing the Yudane method along with the Autolyse method. The recipe is simple: bread flour, whole grain flour, water, yeast, salt, oats, olive oil, and honey or molasses. I am heading out now to deliver bread to the local food bank. Cheers!🙂@@NovitaListyani

[@davidclark9086]

I watched this and found it not just very well made but well documented as well and super informative. I have one question concerning moving from a quick system to using a poolish. I recently started baking 100% spelt bread but it requires 7g or 21 grams of fresh yeast which speeds the whole process up significantly. I normally finish getting it to the oven in just about 2 hours and it turns out wonderful but I want to reduce the amount of yeast using a poolish. Do you have any recommendations or suggestions on how to make the transition from lots of yeast to a little? Thanks in advance.

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you for your comment. We haven't done that many experiments with spelt bread yet, so sorry for not to be able to help.

[@PatHaskell]

Don’t let the negative posters get to you. Obviously, they don’t appreciate or understand your passion and devotion to research.

[@diegocampista3126]

Seraphine, is it possible we could get an explanation of the differences between wheat flours? And the ones we should avoid, if there are any. Thanks!

[@NovitaListyani]

Have you watched this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/q3_SqXxnYs90bpo ?

[@diegocampista3126]

I have not, thank you!@@NovitaListyani

[@DanielReichel1979]

rly interesting. I have my whole doughs in the fridge daily. Downside is, the focaccia/baguette are more chewy, more crust. Maybe i give poolish/biga a chance.

[@kennethsimon960]

Thanks for your great informative video. I use preferments often and it's great to understand the science better thanks to you.

[@randycummings9033]

Good Morning Seraphine. This is a follow-up to a previous post about the affect of TangJhong/Yudane/scalded flour to a bread recipe created by the food scientist for Grand Central Bakery designed to feed the food insecure on the West Coast primarily. The first bake I attempted a 1 to 1 flour/water and added it to the overall recipe. The recipe calls for preferment and an autolyse but I chose not to use the autolyse in this experiment. Also, I did not add or subtract any ingredients during the bake. The result was a slightly smaller loaf. The second experiment I chose to stay closer to the recipe. The evening before the bake, I created the preferment and the Yudane. I chose to keep the hydration ratio (64%) the same as the Autolyse to keep the math simple. I prepped the Yudane the evening before as well. On day two, I used the remaining flour (whole grain and bread flour mix) and water to create the Autolyse. I let the Autolyse rest for an hour. I also removed the preferment and Yudane from the fridge at the same time. (I create my preferment in the mixing bowl) After one hour, I add the Yudane to the preferment by adding small chunks in until nearly fully incorporated. I then add the Autolyse in small chunks until fully incorporated. I then add the yeast and mix for 5 min. I then add the salt and mix for 15 minutes on speed (4). (I have an Ankarsrum) Window pane test. Add the oatmeal porridge. Rest in proofer for 30 min. Strech and fold. Rest 30 min (until doubled). Rough shape rounds. Rest 20 min. Shape loaves. Proof 1 hour. Bake at 375 for 50 min. Results: The overall result was spectacular! The loaves went from typical, stodgy, healthy bread to a soft, springy, moist loaf. I have successfully baked the Yudane method twice with the same result. Now, I will need some feedback from my target audience: food insecure seniors in the Federal Way, Washington area. Thank you for your inspiration!!!

[@craiglandes754]

I think a case can also be made for having a bit of OCD. 🙂I love these videos because the level of detail, research backing and factual analysis are just superb! I also happen to have this obsessive-compulsive need to understand everything, and so for me, these videos are perfect. Plus, the end results can be easily incorporated into whatever I'm making. My current learning project is all about tangzhong, which I learned all about in one of your other videos. Thank you very much for all your work!

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks!

[@cvan1075]

Oh ! Just read the term tangzhong in Cook’s Country and now have to learn-if that is what a preferment is. I thought pre-ferment was prefer-ment

[@craiglandes754]

@@cvan1075 I, too, read it as "preferment," meaning some sort of legal issue like an access easement. LOL! And no, the tangzhong isn't the same as pre-fermenting.

[@MoonFlower-won]

Wow! You earned my respect. I can't say that I retained any of that info but I'm subscribing.....and nobody ought to ever 'dis' you again!!! :)

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks!

[@asard4827]

Wow amazing, detailed, and very informative. Can't wait for new videos!

[@dfhepner]

I wish you would write a book on bread with the science. I found one of your videos and have watched most of the baking ones since. A book with the research that you have done would be so useful to understanding what to do with bread.

[@NovitaListyani]

Maybe one day!

[@louiscohen]

Thanks for the great explanations. Previously, I had thought that preferments vs Long Fermentation just developed different distributions of microorganisms, but I didn't know about the room temp pathogens. I started baking with Hamelman's "Bread" and quickly found the most success with an overnight room temperature poolish for high whole grain breads. BTW, French bakers would have said "Polonaise" for Polish so the origin of "poolish" is mysterious. I resisted sourdough because it seemed too complicated. Finally, during COVID, I bought "Bittman Bread" which preaches Mark Bittman's sourdough technique. All I ever got were some very tasty frisbees. But I really wanted to use the sourdough rye chapter in "Bread"; I finally got a nice rye culture going and I make Hamelman's 100% Workday whole wheat and various ryes from "Bread" and "The Rye Baker". Nearly all of these use a levain which ferments from 12-16 hrs at room temp.

[@NovitaListyani]

From Page 42 of "Taste of Bread" by Prof. Raymond Calvel, I quote here "The poolish is a relatively liquid fermented culture, leavened with baker's yeast in advance of dough mixing and prepared with only part of the flour and water. When the dough is made, the rest of the flour, water, yeast, and salt are added, and an appropriate production schedule is then followed until the baking of the bread is completed. This method of breadmaking was first developed in Poland during the 1840s, from whence its name. It was then used in Vienna by Viennese bakers, and it was during this same period that it became known in France." The renowned Professor Raymond Calvel (1913 - 30 August 2005) was a bread expert and professor of baking at ENSMIC in Paris, France. (source: Wikipedia)

[@louiscohen]

@@NovitaListyani From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-ferment "The common, but undocumented, origin given for the term poolish is that it was first used by Polish bakers around 1840, hence its name, and as a method was brought to France in the beginning of the 1920s. "Poolish" however is an old English version of "Polish", whereas the term seems to be most used in France (where "polonais" is the word for "Polish"). Some nineteenth-century sources use the homophone "pouliche", a French word that typically means a filly.[15] With either spelling, the term only appears in French sources towards the last part of the nineteenth century. There is not currently any credible explanation for the origin of the term." The origin of the term "poolish" is unknown but the attribution to Polish bakers is a widely spread invented etymology. I used an overnight poolish for yeasted breads for years before I finally got my rye sourdough culture going, and got a B & T proofer.

[@NovitaListyani]

Hmm, I remember reading that Wikipedia article, and then later on, I was somehow convinced by "Taste of Bread" by Prof. Calvel and didn't give it a much consideration, now, come to think of it, it's kind of unusual. Thank you so much for raising this issue.

[@Danielle_1234]

I prefer a cold ferment in the fridge over a preferment. Why? Less work, less steps, less complexity. I've never had my dough weaken from it as mentioned in this video, though it might happen in a week+ of dough sitting in the fridge, which I have not done.

[@stauffap]

Do you have a video where you taste the different methods side by side? If not, i would obviously be very interesting in such a video. All this science is of course nice, but in the end we have to eat the products and the question arises how much of a difference it makes and if it's worth the effort. Great video! I'm very impressed that you even had the idea to look at the scientific litearature. Most people never go there.

[@ryanoconnor8207]

You're amazing!!!! ❤❤❤

[@CherylBradley-v9d]

Awesome video! Now I know why my non sourdough bread turned out better with a poolish. I wasn’t going to have time to bake sourdough loaf , but I didn’t want to throw out half of my sourdough starter so I just used less yeast, the starter in my regular dough. I had a pleasant mistake.

[@NovitaListyani]

Wonderful!

[@micheljodoin531]

Just amazing ! This is a really valuable video ! Thank you !

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad it was helpful!

[@MLCS239]

no holds barred! preach it! this is amazing and I love it!

[@rainyprac]

I'm only 2 minutes in but you have a new fan. Loving the energy-School those know-it-alls in your comments

[@simonjohnwright5129]

Possibly the cutest bread girl on the internet. And super smart. You tell them!

[@maxbandelli4046]

Excellent video very educational Definitely done all your research well presented Very clear precise and definition of baking is a science ,we've been doing for a long long time .compliments on your video👍

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks for watching!

[@londobali]

Widih.. detail banget researchnya.. mantaaaappp.. following.

[@isbeb507]

wow its incredible how knowledgeable you are

[@timtomlinson3182]

Love the detailed scientific information. Amazing job.

[@ccbowers]

14:57 That "danger zone"of temperatures referenced by the FDA is intended to promote refrigeration (or maintaining sufficiently hot temperatures in prepared foods) as a way to minimize the growth of bacteria, for concerns of of food borne illness in retail settings. It is a little strange to then use that to imply refrigeration is included in the danger zone, when avoiding that is the raison d'être for refrigeration. Otherwise, I appreciate your content, and even the 'spice" in the beginning, directly addressing previous bad arguments by commenters.

[@NovitaListyani]

The paper directly mentions home settings, not retail settings. I believe danger zones apply everywhere that microbes grow, which includes the average kitchen. In ideal conditions, with temperatures below 5°C, refrigerators would indeed be out of the danger zone, but this isn't always the case in home kitchens. Factors that can contribute to a warm fridge include overfilling and setting it to the wrong temperature, both of which could happen in a lot of households.

[@ccbowers]

@@NovitaListyani Understood. But my point was that those FDA standards are made with retail settings specifically in mind, and are fairly conservative due to an understanding that any standards set will not be perfectly followed- due to variability in equipment, conditions, systems, and personnel. They are a public health level entity after all. I am not saying not be to be cautious, but realistic about what is likely in your home given your practice. Refgerated dough that is properly handled and cooked is a very low risk food. That being said, I especially agree with you that people do not appreciate the issues of cross contamination and that they do not realize that many foods like supermarket flour should be assumed to be contaminated with pathogenic bacteria. While not quite chicken (which approaches 100% of pathogenic bacterial contamination), it is best to treat raw flour as if it contaminated. We in the US have had several pathogenic E Coli and Salmonella outbreaks over recent years. These end up being recalled, but the potential is always there.

[@NovitaListyani]

As mentioned in this video, we quoted this part directly from the paper: “The food safety concern associated with the possible growth of Salmonella enterica in no-knead dough is similar to that of thawing raw poultry at room temperature.” 15:38

[@ccbowers]

@@NovitaListyani And what I said above gives context to that quote. They are saying there is a shared concern, but no one is arguing equal risk. High levels of enteric bacteria is on nearly all chicken that anyone buys in a supermarket (particularly campylobacter, Klebsiella, and salmonella).That isn't necessarily true for flour, but the risk is high enough that we have to act like it is.

[@ariadneWoW]

​@@NovitaListyani even if you're quoting the paper, they're being very unspecific and probably mean if you Ferment it at higher temperatures (38°C) because at those temps, the log CFU/g exceeds 5, which is dangerous. But at 21°C it never exceeds 5. The quote you use doesn't apply to fermenting at 21°C, let alone 5°C.

[@katielady873]

Awesome video. I definitely had to slow the playback speed because of the sheer amount of information that I need to process.

[@axellouisy-joseph2771]

I started a deep dive on poolish for pizza purposes yesterday, once again Seraphine, you come in clutch with these videos

[@multi_misa72]

Thanks a bunch for this clear and interesting explanation. Yup, i want to re- try the poolish use but youre way.❤

[@thuy-lamdo4765]

Great knowledge as usual. I have some questions around this topic : if we make a very liquidy levain, is it the same as a poolish but made from sourdough? In that case the "poolish" is more complex than a yeasted one? Is there any reason why someone would use many preferments in one recipe? Because in my understanding, using any of these preferments is for the same reasons (very well explained in the video). We just choose the type of preferment depending on the result we desire. I prefer sourdough because I think it covers all of the problems. I might be wrong here. Then recently I came across a lean dough recipe that uses MANY preferments including sourdough, and I'm just not really convinced. I'm interested in knowing what are you theories. Thanks again for the video!

[@axellouisy-joseph2771]

30:29 almost didn't catch it lmao great video as always

[@JeffO-]

Somewhere I heard her say 'wonder' (as in Wonder Bread). Unintentional I'm sure.

[@EmadFayek16]

@hi Novita, congratulations for this once more great video . On a different note I have a question, I have a gas oven with 3 options to bake … normal baking , conv. Baking and air fryer … do you have a position if I can use the air fryer baking setting instead of the convectional baking ? and assuming I will use it at the same temp that I use to bake the yeast bread ?

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you for your kind comment. As for your oven, I have yet to experiment with the air fryer or look into the science of it, so I'm not sure I can be of much help.

[@EmadFayek16]

@@NovitaListyani great …. I will wait for your evidence based advice as usual 👏👏👏

[@cQ2]

Awesome, love all the explanation, lot of information is just a few minutes

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@MistressOnyaCox]

😅 I think you're too smart for me and I'm going to have to watch this video at least three more times but happy to do so adorable

[@YouTube_can_ESAD]

First time watching your channel but this episode is outstanding, thank you for your work!

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@ariadneWoW]

Thank you for sharing the video! It was incredibly informative. However, I'm struggling to grasp the argument regarding contamination and health risks. After reviewing Steven Pao's study and examining the graphs, it's stated that "According to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, toxicity becomes a concern when S. aureus populations exceed 5 log CFU/g." Surprisingly, the study itself revealed that these levels were never surpassed at 21°C. In my view, it seems misleading to cite this study because, if we maintain the dough at 5°C, the two bacteria investigated in the study will never surpass 5 log CFU/g. Also, S. aureus demonstrated no significant changes when fermenting at 21°C. As for S. enterica, it reached 4.5 log CFU/g after 24 hours at 21°C, and given the study's findings regarding the correlation between temperature rise and bacterial growth increase, it's reasonable to assume that fermenting at 5°C would keep the bacterial count much closer to the initial value of 2.5 log CFU/g. Furthermore, it's worth noting that the recommended fridge temperature falls between 2-4°C, which contradicts the argument since it's below the 5°C threshold.

[@NovitaListyani]

Thank you for your comment. At 14:07 we said “The no-knead dough method of bread making is a variation of bread making using the long fermentation method, which is a popular method regularly practiced by many artisan and home bakers alike.” When we talk about the no-knead dough method, we have in mind one of its popular versions using stretch-and-fold(s) as shown in the video. In this version of the method, you perform a series of stretch-and-folds for a considerably long duration at room temperature which can correlate to the situation described in the paper we talked about. That’s one. Now, for the kind of “purest” no-knead method, where you mix the ingredients together, and then leave in the fridge to rise over a long period of time. This is fine as long as the fridge’s temperature is actually below 5°C, which unfortunately, as you can see from some of the comments from our viewers below, is not always the case when it comes to home kitchens. Over filling is one of the major causes, along with setting the fridge to the wrong temperature. Although we did extensive research on this area before quoting this specific paper, in hindsight, we should have spent more time talking about this in the video. Among the many pieces of information that we didn’t mention: “Salmonella Outbreak Linked to Flour” www.cdc.gov/salmonella/infantis-03-23/index.html “Molecular and epidemiologic analysis of a county-wide outbreak caused by Salmonella enterica subsp. enterica serovar Enteritidis traced to a bakery” bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2334-4-48 “A multi-state outbreak of Salmonella serotype Thompson infection from commercially distributed bread contaminated by an ill food handler” www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-infection/article/multistate-outbreak-of-salmonella-serotype-thompson-infection-from-commercially-distributed-bread-contaminated-by-an-ill-food-handler/D3D87B3A98C50E40E2C33E92B0A5FCC7 “An outbreak of food-borne salmonellosis linked to a bread takeaway shop in Ben Tre City, Vietnam” www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971214015513 “A Salmonella Typhimurium outbreak linked to Vietnamese bread rolls in South Western Sydney, Australia, 2015” www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5516397/ “A Food-Borne Outbreak of Gastroenteritis Caused by Different Salmonella Serotypes in 2 Universities in Xiamen, Fujian, China, in 2012” www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/yoken/68/3/68_JJID.2014.235/_article/-char/ja/ We didn't put this information in because there wasn't a confirmed link between what we said and what happened in these outbreaks, but they do at least settle that cross contamination can lead to serious health risks, and the first link mentioned above is quite a concern, because it is in the flour. While such contamination might be very rare, but it did happen recently, and long fermentation could exacerbate the problem. That’s why we stressed on cross contamination, at 16:09 we said: “but here is the issue, during the course of bread making you may unintentionally initiate cross-contamination of other foods and utensils. Case in point, say, you made more than one batch of bread, the baked bread that is being handled in between the processing of another bread dough can be vulnerable to post baking contamination.” We also want to note that even though harmful pathogens are neutralized by baking, some of the toxins they produce have extreme temperature resistance, either cold or hot, so technically speaking, it's already a problem if these pathogens can grow in the bread dough at all. To make it clear, at 16:44 in the video, we also said “Although it’s true that bread made with long fermentation turns out fine most of the time” But again, I want to stress here that low risk doesn’t mean no risk.

[@ariadneWoW]

But even if you consider that most folds are done at room temperature, let's say 21°C, the bacteria levels don't go above dangerous levels even after 24 hours in that room. The famous no knead recipe by Jim Lahey, which is also the one used in the study, states that one should ferment for 12h in 70°F (21°C). So I do not think we need to worry about cross contamination here because the levels never go above 5 log CFU/g at that temperature according to the study you link. Regarding refrigeration concerns, if one's refrigerator consistently maintains temperatures above 5°C, it would compromise the safety of all stored food, not just the dough, making the dough the least of their worries. Furthermore, focusing on fermenting at 5°C, as highlighted in your video, offers an additional layer of safety against salmonella, further mitigating any potential risks.

[@NovitaListyani]

In your argument, you continue to mention that the bacteria levels never go beyond dangerous levels, even after 24 hours. That is indeed true, but saying that out of context is very misleading. In the paper, the researchers make clear that they inoculated low levels of S. enterica and S. aureus. You can also find this information at 14:31 in our video, we said “in the study, the researchers found that low levels, around 398 colony-forming unit/g [around 2.6 log CFU/g] of introduced Salmonella enterica and Staphylococcus aureus can multiply significantly overnight in no-knead, slow-rise dough despite the presence of high levels, more than 10 million colony-forming unit/g [> 7 log CFU/g] of active fermenting yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae.” I will also remind you that these pathogens aren't just uncommon microbes that you find in a select few places, they are found in many products that enter the household, including fruits, vegetables, raw meat, and more. The actual levels in a home kitchen where people cook often may be relatively low but they might not be as low as in the study. Not to mention the fact that in a laboratory, after the dough has been inoculated, it is put into sterile conditions resulting in no more cross contamination, in the home kitchen, the dough may not be so fortunate. Let's not even mention that people often work with their bread dough right after chopping salad or making an omelet. I also want to stress that you seem to disregard the paper's use of the term, significant growth. While the levels of bacteria remain below the danger level in the study, the fact that such a low level and one time inoculation could result in significant growth is a serious issue, especially when paired with what I mentioned above. Now, on the danger levels mentioned, although 5 log CFU was used as a threshold, I will repeat again that the paper notes that as few as 15-20 Salmonella cells can cause salmonellosis. This is a serious issue, that cannot be downplayed or said to be alright. I hope you take more consideration before writing things that concern people's health.

[@tylerlin8259]

I think it's worth pointing out that most fridges, are kept at tempetrues below the 5 degrees celcius that is considered the food danger zone. In addition, the study you cited never tested the bacteria growth at lower temperatures seen during long fermentations in the fridge. I personally think that if you are using a no knead recipe in the fridge the food safety aspect is overblown. Agree with the perspective that at room temperature, long fermentation times do present food safety problems.

[@NovitaListyani]

I do agree that most no-knead recipes will turn out okay, if properly refrigerated. But while the ideal fridge temperature is indeed below 5° C, in practice, many fridges are not actually in this temperature range. Overfilling the fridge is a common cause of this, as well as, incorrectly setting the fridge temperature to a higher one.

[@shyft09]

My fridge is set to 5 deg which I think is normal for people not wanting to waste energy unnecessarily. I might think about setting it to 4 😂

[@webwarren]

@@NovitaListyaniOne issue is that many home refrigerators don't have calibrated settings (just a dial with 5-9 "warmer/colder" settings), and without active air circulation, the part of the fridge nearest the condensers may be cold enough to freeze that which is there while other areas - such as the door and the fruit/vegetable bins - may be warm enough to not discourage spoilage.

[@maryjurisons4648]

@@webwarrenwith my fridge, I can set the temperature.

[@vispinet]

I have a question: if I feed my sourdough starter (i feed mine with a 1:2:2 ratio) and, once it's peaked, I use it to make bread, is this considered a preferement with regard to all the benefits you say preferments have? I don't necessarily consider a starter one of the classic preferments. However, I don't understand that chemically it would be any different from a poolish. If I understood what you said, the only advantage of a levain over directly using a starter is having freedom to decide the flour type and water ratios, thus having more control over the final product...

[@NovitaListyani]

If you use part of the starter as soon as it peaks, then that is basically a levain, but if you let it sit in the fridge, for example, over night, and use it the next day, then that is clearly using it as a sourdough starter. The key difference between a levain (the equivalent of a poolish preferment when we are talking about sourdough) and a starter, as explained here at 3:45 , is that, with a levain, you are basically altering the flavor and scaling up the microorganisms, as well as ensuring that the microorganisms are in optimum condition. You may ask why we would want to do this, and the answer is: First, our starter could be too acidic, making it into levain can be an alternative approach to alter the acidity of our sourdough starter. It could also be too weak, in that case, scaling it up would make it stronger because of more active microorganisms. If you were to use the starter straight away, like using one that has sat in the fridge overnight as I mentioned before, you would have no other choice than to use your starter in whatever state it is in, and the microorganisms in the sourdough might have ended their growth phase, entering a non-active lag or even death phase, resulting in the dough taking much longer to ferment or in the worst case, resulting in extreme proteolysis. There's another issue, we don't usually keep a very large amount of starter due to the requirement of regular backsloppings, disregarding whether or not we throw away the discard, this may still result in a considerable waste of flour.

[@vispinet]

@@NovitaListyani very clear. Thank you!

[@jamesgarner2103]

is there any specific changes or adjustments i would need to make when using freshly milled flour?

[@a.zavala2355]

I think this is a scientific touche'.....Well done!😊 Thank you for the lesson. I bake bread but never knew the exacting science-based data. You sure do.👍

[@NovitaListyani]

Thanks for watching!

[@dopapier]

A very intelligent and clear presentation. Thank you.

[@NovitaListyani]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@wallstreetcrash1]

Excellent binary explanation of breadmaking . I almost feel I understand the creation of the universe lol. Thanks for posting 🙂🇬🇧👍