Christ or Country? | Paul Miller, Jeff Shafer, Tim Harmon, Douglas Wilson | Disputatio 2024-25

[@WorshipVideo]

Dr Miller's final response to Doug Wilson's question about Natural Law really shows what a huge problem he has. Elections? Really? Elections are the best a society can do?

[@darrenwise8528]

After reading Genesis 3, Romans 1, and just a bit of history, I find it difficult to believe that we would be able to produce the right training necessary to help people discern natural law "correctly".

[@HaveYouTriedRumble]

💯

[@jackcrow1204]

This seems like a denial of general revelation Of course, sinners would incorrectly interpret the natural law But they would do so to different degrees, with some being fairly close

[@Avid4444]

What are the distinctives of "the natural religion" that would enable us to identify it, especially in light of the multitude of apparent expressions thereof present in the world? If such a religion exists, then what gives rise to the plethora of misalignments between various expressions of it? TBH, the argument seems a spurious representation of the "spirit of the age," which is now and has ever been hostile to Christ.

[@ehudsdagger5619]

Was there any dialogue on this topic with these speakers? Was there, for a lack of better words, any cross-examination? If so, where can I find it?

[@elijahgrajkowski2505]

This is titled a “disputatio,” which is slightly different than a “debate.”

[@ehudsdagger5619]

@@elijahgrajkowski2505 I understand that part. Was just curious if before or after this event there was anything more.

[@elijahgrajkowski2505]

@@ehudsdagger5619 Yeah, you’re right, good question. Maybe they will post more of the exchange? The same gentleman was a guest on CrossPolitic a few days ago.

[@ehudsdagger5619]

@@elijahgrajkowski2505 Good to know. Thanks!

[@angeloarquiza2023]

Will the dialogue be posted as well?

[@georgeluke6382]

1:17:42 Just seems an impossible way to live. If you say only a natural law, given via education, can lead to common public morality, the question goes back to education around what values, and on what texts/ways of life? Neat to see the chartiy, but the argument from Dr. Miller, while well intentioned, seemed premised on fear of the alternative, not on positive careful reasoning from the texts. Dr. Harmon's theological rebuttal was especially helpful to show that some kind of dispensational universal change from the "times of ignorance" to the right-now requirement of surrender to Jesus as YHWH and Lord, was helpful to hear clearly. There is no appeal to merely surrendering to the law of Noah.

[@interestedmeow]

Where fools hear fear and scoff, the discerning understand they are hearing the bold proclamation of Wisdom herself.

[@anglicanaesthetics]

Totally agree with your critique haha. But Christic liberalism escapes it ;)

[@spartakos3178]

It's asking Christ to bless the undertaking of taking your country for Christ.

[@bradyclark7185]

If you mean load magazines, I'm with you bro!

[@jdschuncke]

Dr. Miller might be wrong, but he does make being wrong sound really good.

[@darrenwise8528]

While I personally think Saul is a good example of the state overstepping its bounds, I thought his argument was based on the fact that only the Noahic covenant was made with all of humanity, while the others were exclusive?

[@bradyclark7185]

Saul wasn't a Christian, was he?

[@hmgodwin]

Cant we ban Nazi's according to natural law? If natural law is the foundation of our public morality/laws then various claims: religious and non religious should be ignored or banned if we actually believe natural law has actual content that we can know.

[@chrismaldonado8999]

What if the Nazis disagree with that on the basis of natural law? We necessarily return to the question of what objective standard we are using to base our understanding of natural law. What law giver are we using as the source of what we come to recognize as natural law? It sounds to me like Miller must rest on Thomas Jefferson’s deistic conception of an ethereal creator. My understanding is TJ openly denied the trinity, which means his deistic conception of God is heretical.

[@hmgodwin]

@@chrismaldonado8999 If someone disagreeing is sufficient to overthrow the objectivity of NL then nothing is objective because one can find someone objecting to the truth of any claim.

[@bradyclark7185]

(I'm only 33 minutes in) So, he's basing his argument on the "American experiment"? What about the actual 10 commandments? Leviticus? Numbers? Judges?

[@StoryscapeDesign]

Paul Miller here articulates a theology so full of holes, inherent contradictions, and borderline blasphemous statements, that he, in my opinion, ought to be honestly considered as a false teacher. There is so much to refute, that it's impossible to summarize in these comments. At least for the viewers they had the other speakers, including Dr Wilson, give some form of public counter. We have much more work to do!

[@guardchaplain99]

"They will call YOU a Nazi. So let real Nazi's go free." Um, bro; look around. It's already happening.

[@bradyclark7185]

Nationalsozialist only applies to white males /s

[@thekirkwoodcenter]

Natural law has been followed to varying degrees in human history. There have been better and worse non-Christian nations and cultures: more moral and less moral societies. If the Noahide laws were enforced (because they clearly exist, de re), three major political issues would be immediately resolved: the nature of marriage (e.g., proles, fides, sacramentum), the value of human life (including the unborn and elderly), and the distinction between men and women. If the government were to enforce the Natural Law in these three arenas of human existence, would we still have problems? Of course. But it is these three issues that are fundamentally driving all our discussions about Christian Nationalism. We would not be talking about Christian Nationalism if the Natural Law was being enforced, because none of these fundamental anthropological truths would be questioned. That said, the question for Miller is this: what does one do in a culture that has not just rejected the special revelation of God in Christianity, but that also has rejected the Natural Law?

[@petermenkveld4162]

these guys could have said all of that with many fewer words. 1st hour should have been only 20 minutes

[@guardchaplain99]

"The mahaturata says..." So here we have the "Golden Rule" poured out of all the power of God's commands and seeking a universalist governance. Strange he didn't want crosses or Christ added to the Constitution because it might be watered down, but he wants a milquetoast unverisalism added? By which governance that God established and commanded is THIS ideal, this "lowest common denominator" approach? The person seeking to mutilate their body due to mental instability will cry "you don't love me, you won't let me do what I would have you be able to do," and kids are tr@nsed again. Hate to tell you, LCD is what we have now, and look around. Can't just "classical liberalism harder," sorry.

[@williamboone8992]

"Might look like an election" ...well what it actually looks like is an unfair election. Remedy? Revolt. You advocating revolt in the name of natural law? This guy is SO radical!😂

[@Eca-o8s]

First speaker, excellent. This is actually the prophetic message for our times. But many have not ears to hear! Theres a call to pure Christianity, a reformation if you will, to separate from state and keep the call and mandate of the church holy, which is to proclaim the gospel. And her prophetic voice to the nations is to prepare for the coming of Christ, who will judge the nations and subdue kings and rule over them! We are to demonstrate on earth what the Kingdom of God looks like by the way we live as an ekklesia, which is peace, joy and righteousness in the holy Spirit. We are to demonstrate the power of the Kingdom by destroying the works of the enemy through the holy Spirit, as Christ did. He drove out demons, He pardoned sinners and transformed lives. And we win the hearts of men, appealing to their consciences, through the Word of God spoken with accompanying signs and wonders. Our message and our calling is a higher one than the governments of earth! Our message offends or saves!

[@interestedmeow]

Doug’s response to a well put together argument is to make fun of things that didn’t comprise the substance of the argument to reassure his biased audience that they need not think too hard about what Dr Miller laid out in a thoughtful and serious manner. Which is surprising as that goes counter-grain to the stated purpose of this dialogue. When they guy who’s been serious about this topic for decades can only respond with a standup routine in rebuttal to a measured counter-argument, it’s obvious he’s standing on the downhill side of the debate. How do I know this? Watching Wilson debate Hitchens.

[@sawyeranderson1394]

That is a silly critique. Doug, as has just been displayed to you, is a jovial character. Therefore, he was acting as such. You can plainly see Paul laughing along with Doug's joking. It is not as if Paul's argument/points were disrespectfully handled or disregard. Two speakers provided counter-arguments seriously addressing Paul Miller's claims and then established and defended the contrary perspective before Doug had even taken the stage. Doug fairly and appropriately interacted with Paul's points. If the best critique you have is that he made people laugh, I am thoroughly unconvinced.

[@1Whipperin]

Assembling for the sole purpose of worship, as seen in many modern churches, is unbiblical. Nowhere in the New Testament do we find the concept of gathering as an institution for ritualistic worship. Instead, believers are called to worship God individually in spirit and truth (John 4:23-24), transcending the need for a formalized, structured assembly. Early Christian gatherings focused on mutual edification, sharing, and living out faith, not on formal worship services. The elevation of a weekly assembly for worship has distorted the biblical model, reducing active, daily discipleship to a mere ceremonial act, which Jesus never endorsed.