NTSB Board Meeting - 2023 Near Collision of Two Airliners in Austin, TX

[@overhead18]

Clearing a plane to takeoff while another plane is on a low visibility CATIII ILS approach is asking for trouble. Planes telling ATC they are ready for takeoff when they are actually not ready for takeoff and not warning ATC there will be a delay is also asking for trouble. The extra training for controllers is always good, but are most ATC facilities staffed to a level they can afford to pull people off the line in order to complete the training? Public information says KAUS is staffed at 78% with a not insignificant part of that staff being still in training. If we are pulling controllers from the line someone has to fill that spot and if that spot requires another controller working overtime we are trading one problem for another. It is likely when the FAA says "sprint" they are speaking about an AGILE process, a set period of time to work on a particular problem or set of problems. A search for AGILE sprint will explaining it better than I can. GA aircraft are required to have ADSB out to operate in class A, B or C airspace, that would cover airports like KAUS. It is great for the NTSB to recommend these changes, but if they are not funded by congress they will not get done. Thank you for posting this publicly, it was very interesting and important interested people have access.

[@Thisandthat8908]

but your first two points make the solution very clear: don't let the pilots decide, play it safe. Don't do the first, because you have to expect the second. As safe as it is complete, undisputed standard in almost all other countries. I'm pretty sure in the EU the runway has to be free. Period.

[@jonr9858]

1:38:52 "...that runway is mine when I'm cleared for takeoff." What about the airplane that's been cleared to land? Is it not also their runway?

[@marcususa]

Is the premise the takeoff plane gets priority to relieve congestion?

[@deeremeyer1749]

​@@marcususaThe "takeoff plane" was 1/2 a mile of taxiway FROM 18L when they called "short of one eight left". They hadn't even crossed 18R when calling "short of" 18L. They were nowhere near READY for takeoff.

[@marcususa]

@@deeremeyer1749 That has NOTHING to do with my statement. Congestion is still congestion, 1 less plane is still 1 less plane once it gets off into the air. You going on about a .5 mile is like saying, "A car is approaching a green light at an intersection, so why can't just one car perpendicular (with a red light), squeeze on through?" Think about the traffic on ground compared to the air. The air has a lot more space, and once it is directed in the direction it needs to go, it is no longer an issue for that airport. Apparently, the .5 mile did matter because there was a near collision.

[@delanorrosey4730]

Why wasn't SW708 cleared for 17R and the FedEx cleared for 17L? It sounds like ATC dropped the ball, but the FedEx crew was already suspecting a runway incursion due to the response from SW708 and ATC haphazardly realizing that they were trying to push two planes on the sane runway at the same time.

[@jonr9858]

@@delanorrosey4730 A very good question. Both aircraft were cleared to use 18L which is the shorter runway. 18L is a 9000-foot runway, and 18R is a 12,250-foot runway.

[@mendel5106]

I think that the tower controller should never proceed with clearance for takeoff before he is certain where the FedEx is and if there is enough time for the SW to take off, and if not, hold himself back from giving a clearance for takeoff until such time that the FedEx landed and is off the runway. Meaning that on this foggy day, he must wait until FedEx lands and contacts the tower that he left the runway before allowing SW to even line up and wait. And only then give him the clearance for take off... I very much like the FedEx training on a "Startled effect" go arounds especially for category 3 auto lands. It's like blancolirio's Juan Brown said: "Every landing is a go around unless you can prove that the runway is clear of traffic & obstacles" This pilot had his hands on the throttles ready to push the toga button and advance the throttles. He overcame his "startle effect" real quick and thus saved many lives in this incident. In my eyes, he is the real hero (and FedEx training) in this event.

[@lionelmrocki7955]

2:52:34 why not have a dual CVR system, more practical for non-destructive incidents. 1) The traditional CVR (the ~$25,000) unit designed to survive crashes, fires, and submerged scenarios, plus 2) a simple lockable, removable memory chip device containing a copy of the same data. The secondary device could be designed to act as a preserver of data for any significant incident for any plane remaining powered on, or in service. The pilots could activate a "protect recording" feature in order to preserve the precious audio. The removable device could be removed at a convenient follow-up destination by authorised personnel under secure conditions, and handled with all sensitivity and industry protections required. It shouldn't be such a big drama to have cockpit audio after incidents where there was no crash.

[@smedleyx]

this is pretty scary if planes are allowed to move around the field with no direct visibility from the tower

[@Raiders33]

2:01:17 _"Did either aircraft receive a TCAS Alert? Yes, both did .... for Southwest, it would've gotten a Traffic Advisory roughly about 6 or 7 seconds _*_PRIOR to Southwest starting their takeoff run_*_ ."_ 😯 So SWA708 got a TA *BEFORE* they started their takeoff roll, but still took off. SWA708 responded by just shallowing their climb out. 🤔

[@tong.clement]

Hmmmm. 6 seconds before take off roll - you can see them on the TCAS screen (?) + you have been told that traffic is on 3 mile final - no ATC calls to confirm? No position reporting on the runway by the southwest crew? What's going on with the Southwest crew? I am now concerned that I will be traveling on Southwest this summer - hopefully the crew will be more alert and competent.

[@keithpedersen3653]

The Emergency Exit announcement is a sound for sore ears. Thanks to President Biden and Congress for filling the Board on the first in-person NTSB meeting since COVID!

[@planck39]

2nM separation? Very sporty! 1.54min at it best!

[@rreiter]

But for the controller clearing the SW jet, this would not have happened, given that the controller had no direct spatial awareness of all aircraft desiring runway use. Zippering of runway departures and arrivals at 3 mile intervals during CAT III conditions is stupid whether an aircraft on the ground is stopped holding short or still taxiing 550 feet away, if all it takes is a 15 or 20 second distraction on the ground to cause a catastrophe. So stop doing that.

[@davebollmann5292]

With aircraft accident analysis, we find out experience of pilots. What was the experience of these 2 air traffic controllers?

[@delanorrosey4730]

DEI hires. Clear case of incompetence blamed on SW instead of ATC. SW was in a rush, but could've been directed to takeoff from 18R while FedEx lands on 18L.

[@delanorrosey4730]

D e i hires.

[@delanorrosey4730]

We know their level of experience - it begins with D and ends with I.

[@bunglejoy3645]

I wouldnt let my vlose family wotk for ATC FULL STOP NOT FOR MILLION POUNDS

[@bunglejoy3645]

Iff fed x crew were not proberly rested dig wt them not just atc ifvyour fatigued and not well rested to ne it means samecthing a human adults need 8 to 9 hours sleep a night but not many people will get it a night andcthesecpeople could be doctors surgeons etc but it fosentvinerfere with their job so why do they go on about fatigue in this basically what she zs saying all crews should have list of American airports that haven't got that extra monitoting equipment so they know beforehand if fog was thatbbad why were they not cancelling flights okay people go on roads if its foggy but there advised to use lights and extra distance between cars etc. It's not spelled out uou have to inform atc if taking off delayed but it should be and pilots should do it its should be part of saftey procedure its responsibility of pilots to be proffessional dont leave it all to ATC if that equipment is advised it should be compulsery

[@FullLengthInterstates]

why is surface position monitoring this complicated? doesnt adsb self report gps location? why cant the controller just set up an off the shelf receiver for situational awareness instead of waiting for the airport to get a fancy installation?

[@bothewolf3466]

I like that they all have 'minions' behind them. What a weird visual.

[@keithpedersen3653]

"Sprint" is a term adopted from Agile software planning. It is making its way into program management speak because system engineering is so frequently software these days.

[@bunglejoy3645]

I thought landing planes had priority and even I fouldvhavecthought about 24 hour voice recorders you don't have to be experts to think of that

[@deeremeyer1749]

Southwest called "short of one eight left" when stll HALF A MILE SHORT OF ONE EIGHT LEFT! Normally "short of" means "next to". Dumbasses weren't even short of one eight right.

[@bunglejoy3645]

Its abit like the japenese coastguard plane and landing japenese passenger plane that had crept over the hold short line that ebded in tradgey

[@FullLengthInterstates]

When she talks about all the lives that were at risk during recent incidents, let us think about all the lives that are risked on a daily basis during near misses on our roads. We already know the statistics of the automotive risks that are actualized every year. Airplanes are an incredible concentration of resources, and that is why we have a federal organization that investigates every plane crash. The process from investigations to recommendations to implementation has made airlines the safest mode of transportation, if only we could be as serious about preventing car crashes.

[@Thisandthat8908]

your local authorities do NOT set the traffic lights up that both roads are green at the same time so they can get more traffic through. Which is exactly what ATC seems to do all the time. Usually by mistake. Yes, in the grand scheme of things it happens very rarely. But more than in other major air traffic regions. And "elsewhere it's more risky" is (always) a lousy excuse.

[@GH-oi2jf]

It seems to me that SWA flight crew caused the problem. Why would they request takeoff clearance before arriving at the hold line?

[@Raiders33]

It was still Night Conditions (no/ low sunlight) at 06:40 am in February winter time, in CATIII ILS conditions with only 600 feet RVR (at minimums), so SWA708 couldn't really see the end of the taxiway/ hold line/ AER of RWY 18L coming in front of them. The crew was planning on departing without delay (not stopping). But because they had to use a de-icing system, it required them to stop and do a 30 sec. engine runup which they cut down to 19 seconds. And _"at the time of the incident, there was an extremely low traffic volume and complexity at AUS."_

[@Thisandthat8908]

@@Raiders33 they say that the 30sec procedure was mandatory and the SWA crew knew it would happen. Also there should be lights and it wasn't 20 feet or 60, it was 500.

[@Raiders33]

@@Thisandthat8908 The runup was a Boeing mandatory policy, but SW Airlines did not have a mandatory company policy for it. I'm not sure what was "20 or 60 feet." RVR was at the 600 feet minimum at mid point, and vertical visibility was 200 ft AGL.

[@Thisandthat8908]

@@Raiders33 the point at which they said they were stopping at the runway but weren't. That's not a tiny mistake but a massive one.

[@kevinfergerson7169]

Nearly every airliner did the same/similar callout prior to the hold short line. The intent is to keep the aircraft moving if it is not necessary to stop. There is no standard in the AIM to position report at the hold short line unless specifically requested.

[@bunglejoy3645]

Well if there is surface detection equipment all airports where there's a reasonable number of flights should have it and wecam monitors that would have picked thrm up clearly the cameras could be on poles like the localisers shouldn't there be two localised controllers someone can't jerp track of landing and takevoffs at same yime

[@josephaltieri1017]

welcome to swa hustle approach to everything they do disregarding safety

[@bunglejoy3645]

Short of runwzy but he was on runway like with japenese job hold short of charlie 5 basically it likexa runner on start line they cant put vtheir fingers over it so plane should have been three feet behind line and not move a muscle over line

[@bunglejoy3645]

The protect recording though if done by crew is 99% ofvtime fine unless you have a dodgy pilot who delibrately dosent vactivate chip and turns transponder off automatic turn on of chip without wnybody touching it would be better andcat end of glights ifvit needs taking out then crew can twke itbout but it should havexa gps so thatbit has to be hwnded in to ATC at time somit cant be destroyedvor rrmoved from airport

[@bunglejoy3645]

Whats good of two hours if a flight lastsc4vhours but someghing mey be importsnt on first two hours which is lost so accident investigators are stuck along with relatives wfter a diasester trying to sue airlines. But people still go on 6 hour flights knowing this and even longer flights travellirs needcto think aboutvthis butvits complency noo e gets on acplane thinking uou may need the black box

[@ikefork2606]

After receiving and confirming the "takeoff" clearance, the flight crew of the Southwest aircraft took way too long to commence its takeoff roll. Given the adverse environmental circumstances that morning, with severely restricted visibility, the Southwest flight crew demonstrated a lack of situational awareness poor judgement, and little to no sense of urgency. Their performance was not commensurate with the duties and responsibilities of an ATP certificated pilot. The Southwest flight crew's marginal performance nearly placed the passengers of his aircraft, and the FedEx crew in danger of a runway collision, which could have caused substantial injury and/or death. Good Job FedEx! Southwest you blew it badly!

[@Raiders33]

22:05 _"..... Southwest was stopped for 19 seconds before beginning its takeoff roll."_

[@jaysmith1408]

In the few cases I’ve been in with separation that close, and at our fields, that is plenty unless the arrival is a corporate jet, we usually decline, otherwise use some fairly youthful enthusiasm. If we haven’t done pre-takeoff yet, which includes the runup, it’s a no-go, since we aren’t actually ready. If it’s been done, we get moving.

[@bunglejoy3645]

Shoukdnt the atc conttoller be present vto answer for themselves basically they should have been behind line full stop if id been working for atc id said hold on if he hadnt gone over line we wouldnt all be here dont blame me pal who would work for atc if it aint your fault they will try and blame you for something if t hey can

[@agoogleuser2369]

This whole incident highlights the need for crew members and air traffic controllers to have a much better and clearer radio communications. There's no need to add things to AIM. Southwest crew was not ready for takeoff when they said they were ready. Plus, they took their sweet little time to get going with their takeoff run. Very poor SA by the Southwest crew. The tower controller should have demanded no delay on the Southwest takeoff roll, as the FedEx aircraft was at a 2 mile final, probably less on low visibility operation. In the end, the tower controller should've told Southwest to hold short of the runway, while the inbound 767 was on the 2 mile final. You need to slow things way down and operate at the proper pace, that allows for high levels of safety, and crews need to properly perform briefings and request / communicate with ATC if more time is needed, based of the current weather conditions at hand and procedures required for the operation of the aircraft. Common sense is not very common after all.

[@bunglejoy3645]

Another words they can intefere with home life anotherwords they can say to atc arnt at work ie you could have had 8 hours sleep yes but my kid was ill during night ,we were kept awake by noisy neighbours, we werexat A+e with my very poorly child i suppose they can ring in sick but are afraid if jobs are going that they will be one cof them theres not many jobs will mean employers can run uour private life. Ie if youd been having nuptils ahd bext day you were tired thed say have 😮them on a non work day

[@dvpro1]

Nancy Grace is awful

[@stevemcgarrett303]

She is awful. How the hell did she even become a candidate for the lead at NTSB, let alone be selected.

[@GH-oi2jf]

Homendy is well-qualified to lead the board, and does the job as well as others have in recent years. I don't get why some people get a bee in their bonnet over the way she runs the meeting. If you can't deal with it, but are interested in the NTSB function, you can just read the NTSB reports. All the important information is in the report.

[@Thisandthat8908]

@@GH-oi2jf the way they run it, is pretty formalized. She doesn't just make it up. Or does it much different from her predecessor. They could do with a sound check. The first guy popping his mic is irritating and others sound is bad as well. I guess it's some imaginary politics nonsense as usual. Or the Lady thing.

[@bbt305]

Hearing Karen talk gives me a headache. Harassing people will not evoke change! She was Bidens worst decision!

[@GH-oi2jf]

Karen who? Where in the video?

[@bbt305]

@@GH-oi2jf jenny is karen

[@GH-oi2jf]

@@bbt305-- Homendy was appointed to the NTSB in 2018.

[@bbt305]

@@GH-oi2jf trumps second worst decision!

[@bbt305]

@@GH-oi2jf guess that explains it even more!!! Of course she was appointed by him.

[@bbt305]

Why is she looking at the camera? She should be working for the people. The people there, the American citizens. Its all about her. Its insane. She must love to hear herself as always she doesnt know to delegate. She wants control. Psychopath.

[@bbt305]

Why is she looking at the camera? She should be working for the people. The people there, the American citizens. Its all about her. Its insane. She must love to hear herself as always she doesnt know to delegate. She wants control. Psychopath.

[@RocketboyX]

OK boomer.