NTSB Board Meeting: Collision Between a Sport Utility Vehicle and a Crash Attenuator

[@othername1000]

2:09:20 end of break, back in session

[@andrewmalone8709]

Much appreciated

[@drumcorcaigh5770]

Youre the best

[@keithpedersen3653]

So glad to see a full board again!

[@LeshVarg]

There is a reason why drivers need to be in total control. Foolishness and laziness like this will end up with disastrous consequences. Keep the steering wheel. I understand the notion behind the autonomous driving that people don't like to drive (due to their laziness), but there are service like Uber and Lyft that will take care of that. Plus there should be a limit to this self-driving tech. I for one, have driven a slight autonomous vehicle (Distronic Plus and GM adaptive cruise control). There are points that the system can't be relied on and drivers must be able to counter-act when tough situations appear. I am ok with other drivers assistance aids like front and rear collision warning systems, lane departure warnings, and cameras around the vehicle.

[@yanDeriction]

Self driving technology helps people who can't drive get around without the expense and inconvenience of getting a cab/rideshare. It will hugely benefit disabled/elderly people and keep bad drivers from taking lives without limiting their freedom of movement. Drivers like this guy are precisely why self driving tech needs to arrive to market ASAP. Every year that AV tech doesn't arrive is another year that human error takes 30k lives. So there is a morbid cost-benefit argument to be made that looser regulations on self driving technology now will be worth it if it helps full self driving to arrive to market even 1 year sooner.

[@LeshVarg]

@@yanDeriction and who is developing this self-driving tech? Care to explain? You truly believe that computers are much smarter than humans. Humans are smart. Who developed computers when they were first introduced? The good thing about humans is that we learn from mistakes really quick and get wiser and knowledgeable as time passes. Also, do you really think, people can afford over 60k for a self-driving vehicle? Most of them have to take out loans just own one. And here is another food for thought. Do you really want to put an end to the privilege and joy of driving an automobile? There are many car people in the world that loves driving and sees the pure joy for driving. Taking that away just to let a computer do the driving for you just ends all that and happiness fades. Do us a favor, find a better car and drive on a empty road to understand the meaning of what a car is all about?

[@yanDeriction]

@@LeshVarg Humans are more proficient at driving at the moment but self driving test fleets already have a overall lower accident rate. Not only do computers learn from their mistakes, but retention of learning is permanent and the skill is rolled out to the entire fleet. Once 1 self driving car gains the proficiency of a Canadian trucker with multiple endorsements and millions of miles, ALL self driving cars will gain that proficiency. Cost is a dumb argument, most of the cost of "self driving" cars right now is due to early adopter costs, mainly for developing software. Computer hardware costs next to nothing, Tesla's camera + radar system is extremely cheap if it pans out. The only expensive sensor right now is lidar but there's also no reason that cost won't come down in mass production. Even at a slight premium, a self driving car will be cheaper than paying for 15 years of drivers. In the future SDCs will cost no more than cars with adaptive cruise/lane keep assist cost right now. Your last argument is an emotional one. Once self driving cars take over you can still drive - it will just be limited to the track, or require passing an advanced training course that most people won't bother taking. Roads will be smoother, safer and more pleasant to drive on.

[@jaysmith1408]

I must add that on good days, convoying with colleagues is very pleasant with adaptive cruise control with a skilled driver in the lead, with only having to steer being to the driver, but when these things go berserk, like standing on the brakes to avoid a slower vehicle instead of getting close enough to pass, it’s a royal pain.

[@jefflewis4]

@@yanDeriction Cab/rideshares are the ones heavily invested in self-driving tech. This does not in any way help people avoid the expense of cab/rideshares. These companies goals is for everyone to become completely dependent on cab/rideshares services and not drive their own vehicles anymore.

[@joetexas1546]

Wait for it- pilotless Airliners coming to an Airport near you! Ugh!

[@nnelg8139]

Remember that Tesla's best auto-guidance systems are still less reliable than the millenia-old technology of physical tracks

[@auntjanet2346]

That's not Dr. Robert Molloy, that's Dr. Frasier Crane!

[@JoePJack1]

I have no sympathy for these quacks playing video games and watching movies while driving on auto pilot. The technology is not their yet. It’s to assist you plain and simple. It’s a great step in the direction of self driving, and will help the technology to advance. If that driver doesn’t have at least one hand on the wheel for 20 seconds, that car should pullover and 🛑. Also a driver facing camera can determine the driver is distracted and the car should pull over and 🛑

[@keithpedersen3653]

I agree! People who make mistakes or have temporarily poor judgement deserve their firey deaths! I am alive today because I have never made a mistake; not once have I needed a system that guards against human flaws and frailty.

[@JoePJack1]

Keith Pedersen this wasn’t a simple mistake or temporary poor judgement. He drove this route everyday and everyday his car veered toward that barrier. Yet the video game was more important than his life and potentially the lives of everyone else on the road.

[@keithpedersen3653]

@@JoePJack1 1) There was evidence that it swerved previously, but no evidence was presented that it swerved "every time". 2) What if it was the first time he decided to play games? Don't speculate; they only presented "hands on wheel" evidence from the accident trip. I'm not defending his behavior at all, but I have sympathy for him because I have made mistakes of attention my whole life. The ultimate problem is that Level 2 automation is unsafe at any speed. A human cannot maintaim split-second vigilence when they aren't in the control loop. Automatic cruise control (Level 1) is safe because you still have to steer, so you're still "in the loop." And Level 3 is safe because you're "on the loop", buy you'll have 10-20 seconds of warning before the machine relinquishes control; enough time to regain situational awareness. In Level 2, you're expected to supervise autonomy that is perfect 99.99% of the time, then take over the instant it fucks up. Decades of human factors research says that's insane.

[@SJActress]

29:00 yeah it's not automatic. Of you were in the trunk of a car, would you want services disabled? Sure, 911, bit what if the operator on duty was the one to put a hit on you? I see your point, it's just that it isn't a good one.

[@alvon911]

Don't worry; in America, everything is someone else's fault! Never the driver.

[@jaysmith1408]

Take a look at WabCo’s OnGuard. Damn thing will throw out the anchor for a flea crossing the road, not to mention an attenuator, or especially a tractor trailer, straight ahead of you.

[@chrislong2256]

Dude roasted Tesla...surprised more of these accidents haven't happened.

[@bigd-1-channel514]

BAN all SELF driving vehicles Period. Do your job, this sort of thing is NOT GOOD to allow.

[@laurachance-lablanc3119]

Whats this new female look from Timothy

[@laurachance-lablanc3119]

No I do not

[@williamgreene4834]

Now they recognize stoplights, stop signs, speed limit signs, pedestrians, bicycles, dogs, etc. They also stop at stop lights, stop signs, pedestrians etc. and obeys speed limit signs, so they are getting better at a very fast rate.

[@whyareyoureadingthis3936]

How reliable is it

[@williamgreene4834]

@@whyareyoureadingthis3936 It is not level 5 and shouldn't be treated like it. Level 5 is fall asleep in the back seat reliable. Some people treat it like that and bad things happen. I said it's getting better at a very fast rate. If it was 100% reliable it couldn't be improving.

[@whyareyoureadingthis3936]

@@williamgreene4834 Yeah ofc. But even when this happened, I'm pretty sure that autopilot was advertised as able to "stay in the line" yet this stuff happens,

[@CalMariner]

Damn! Robbie Zoom throwin' it DOWN hard!

[@WeBeGood06]

Both Human and Tesla Autopilot thought the Left Gore Line was the Left Lane Line as the actual Left Lane Line was almost gone, poorly marked. The NTSB should have included the Human Crash that used and broke the Collision Attenuator. I'm actually surprised that Human and Autopilot did not recognize the Attenuator as an object in the road. NHTSA should additionally look for defects in Lane Markings. Two accidents, one cause. Neither Human or Autopilot properly recognized which line was the left lane line.

[@jaysmith1408]

Poorly marked lines? I saw it. The board saw it. CHP saw it. Not to mention, what did the camera figure the right lane was doing? Couldn’t it have followed that as well, or is the system left bias?

[@anthonyrstrawbridge]

Spot on!

[@SJActress]

10:00 this idea doesn't work. Let's say I have a driver, and a passenger is having a heart attack, and I'm the third passenger dialing 911. What public or private enterprise is tasked with knowing whose foot is on the gas? That's nonsense. Address it.

[@SJActress]

27:04 do you work for Fifth Estate? You are the reason I have a warning tag on my blow dryer advising me to not use it in the shower or while sleeping. Dear NTSB, I'm fine with "foreseeable misuse," but establish your standard: sophisticated consumer? Unsophisticated consumer, or least sophisticated consumer? Because the last is ludicrous.

[@SJActress]

"over reliance on automation" This is why automation is innovative, but has come far too later. This won't work until idiot-proof technology is better than idiots.

[@SJActress]

I'm fewer than 30 minutes in, but either Sumwalt will say this NOW, or he'll read my comment and say it LATER. Forget about this specific cause and effect and consider the bigger picture. When it comes to an airplane, autopilot is a great tool, because the person using it has the sole responsibility of being trained to NOT use it when things go wrong. Drivers of motor vehicles INTEND to use autopilot to travel to a location for a job where they know what they're doing. You cannot compare plane autopilot to car autopilot. For one, it's an invaluable tool of the JOB. For the other, it remains a convenience to get TO a job with a little less hassle. It's apples and oranges. I'm happy this technology is being tested, but autopilot allows no one to sleep behind the wheel, and if your job isn't the human failsafe to handle the computer, it's not a consumer option yet.

[@jaysmith1408]

And figure aircraft autopilot, if you’ve spent the half hour programming your waypoints, stars, approaches, departures, sids, flight levels and on and on and on, it will do just that, but if you don’t answer, it’ll start flying in circles until you either start responding (Northwest in Michigan if I recall correctly) or run out of fuel (that one in Greece, or that golfer). If you let go of the wheel, it won’t start driving around the block. Aircraft autopilots are designed to do exactly what was asked of them to a T, even if it’s a bad idea (waypoint R, in that American crash in Peru). Of course it takes a long time to do so, and requires the crew to know what they’re doing, but automotive self driving systems are expecting ten seconds of “take me home” and off it goes.

[@SJActress]

1:13:40, AGAIN, you toss around "foreseeable misuse" as if that's a recognized standard. It's not. What's the assumption: sophisticated consumer, unsophisticated consumer, or least sophisticated consumer? You won't answer and just assume based on an assumption that we all accept your interpretation, which you don't provide.

[@chloehennessey6813]

My dad said that if I ever used the “auto pilot” my car would be sold and I’d be responsible for getting a car myself from then on. NTSB, Tesla doesn’t have to answer you. You’re here to investigate crashes.

[@gomphrena-beautifulflower-8043]

Chloe, the NTSB cannot enforce rules, true. But they can make recommendations. As Chairman Sumwalt reminds us, their duty is to make recommendations; the weak link in the chain is entities like Tesla, that think they are above and beyond oversight. They are not.

[@spiritofhopeloveandkindnes2308]

American needs to group.

[@lisarose8580]

The bright transmission neurologically scold because cement pathohistologically prick including a humdrum smell. responsible, obsolete calculator

[@SJActress]

1:08:04 Ladies and Gentlemen, the Nanny State...errr Canadian Fifth Estate, i.e., how do I make MY DELIBERATE IGNORANCE -- YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AS MY NANNY-MAMA? Dear Government, you are responsible for myself.

[@SJActress]

This investigation brought to you by General Motors.

[@SJActress]

Strategies we know about are on this scale. We dare not implement strategies that would benefit safety OVER lobbyists. I want to respect you, but your scientific solutions are politically derived. Sad.