Make 10 Etchants for Copper Printed Circuit Boards

[@chimerahitman]

All I have to say is that I am amazed by the HDI Handbook. I quickly skimmed over a few sections and I am liking a lot what I see. Thank you very much Okto Putsch!!!

[@UpcycleElectronics]

Thank you! thank you! thank you! for all of these electronics chemistry videos Nurd Rage. Seriously, you've played a major role in helping me discover my interests in PCB design and prototyping. I have been goofing around with electronics since becoming partially disabled in 2014. I've gone from goofing around with copy and paste arduino code to hacking old junk, to designing and etching my own circuits. I've watched this and several of your other uploads a dozen or more times. I have been playing with a container of ferric chloride I was given from RadioShack before they went belly up. I'm finally to the point where I want to try etching some larger panelized designs that are close to A4 sized transparencies. Today I was given a container of muriatic acid from lowes, some 3% hydrogen peroxide, some steel wool, and I'm back here for notes! I also have an old container of tarnex to try that tinning solution recipe you cooked up... yeah I'm that slow... as a gimp it takes forever to get things done. I really really appreciate the references you've made here. One problem I'm having is the unknown concentration of my old ferric chloride from RS. I don't know if I should try to heat it to evaporate/concentrate it or modify it somehow. Even the last 1/3rd of my bottle of fresh solution took around 45min to etch a 5cm × 10cm double sided design. Most people that I've watched or read about say that etching with ferric chloride should take around 15-20min. How does an amateur go about characterizing the quality and strength of their enchant? I don't expect an answer here or anything. This is simply intended as a positive feedback blurb. I'm just sharing a challenge incase you or anyone else thinks this kind of thing is worth addressing. I'm sure you have a laundry list of things you'd like to make content about. Another chemistry experiment I was curious about recently is trying to play with making a transistor using doped materials. I was watching Robert Baruch, on the channel by the same name, reverse engineering a 74 series logic chip at the die level. He was talking about a way to dye the p-channel doped materials during his last live stream. That got me curious about what other transistor effects could be made at home or even in the average lab. It's just something to think about if your interested in that kind of thing ;) -Jake

[@enzoTHEferrari]

Honestly, I do not understand 98% of your videos, including this one, but there is something special about your videos that makes them very entertaining for me.

[@kickit246]

Right on! I was about to say the same thing. I'm not too fluent in the ways of Chemistry (high school is as far as I went with Chemistry), but I always enjoy these videos and can usually grasp what's going on.

[@2009landscape]

NurdRage, I love all of your video! I never get bored to watch it and I am deaf I want to say thank you for put closed caption it really help me to learn, some people just dont put closed caption on videos. You worked hard to teach some things to people and let not forget all of those things you used chemical must be cost you quite money and you dont earn any money from KZbin.... I sure hope you keep doing what you are doing. I know you dont show your face but I hope I will meet you one day.

[@tybo09]

I LOVE THAT INTRO!!!! Very retro. Reminds me of the CBS Special Programming intro from the 70's/80's

[@NurdRage]

Probably works with a few more metals rather than just brass. I suspect it would also dissolve zinc as well. I don't know of any special properties that would make brass much easier to dissolve as opposed to other metals. Is it dissolving cleanly or is it leaving a sludge or sediment in the bottom the tank? If it's leaving a sludge/sediment then the faster dissolution might be from it simply being easier to break-up so less energy is needed to actually dissolve metal as opposed to breaking it up

[@RockstarLittle]

Woah this is captivating, I have absolutely no use for this and yet I'm still watching :-)

[@simonloko]

thanks man! house hold hydrochloric acid and peroxide worked like a charm on etching copper thanks man!

[@NurdRage]

Brass is an alloy of two or more metals, usually copper and zinc. But yes, there are lots of copper chloride and zinc chloride compounds. The apparent speed can be attributed to the sludge formation. The brass dissolves and breaks off microscopic pieces of metal (the sludge). So for the same amount of energy more metal "dissolves" because it's cheating by breaking off sludge instead. Like cutting a pipe at the base and throwing it all away as opposed to slowly melting down the whole pipe.

[@Inspironator]

Most excellent! You've thought of everything, even disposal, which is a problem. Can't wait for that video...

[@NurdRage]

first the "walls" of the hole are coated with a conductive ink (usually graphite based since it's cheap), then it's dried. The board is then cleaned and dipped into plating solution with additives to improve plating of the holes.

[@NurdRage]

The video is sped up. it takes several minutes to etch with 3% h202 and sulfuric acid. but it still works

[@m3sca1]

Thats cool-i just uploaded a video making my first printed circuit board using the toner transfer method from a laser printer on shiny magazine paper. No expensive press n peel paper-just a page from a magazine. I used ammonium persulphate and its really cool that you have a list of readily available chemicals.

[@NurdRage]

Best way to tell is to do something called a titration to find the exact quantities of acid and metal ions in solution. pH alone is not indicative since CuCl2 is itself acidic. If you're just doing this on a hobby scale and don't really need perfectly consistent results then its easier just to take a small 10mL sample (like in the videos) and test etch of a small strip of PCB. if it etches its fine, if not, add 3mL H2O2, if it etches you just need H2O2 or air bubbling, if not then add acid.

[@mgregggphone]

Keep the good videos coming. For what it's worth, the quality of the sodium acetate that I make has greatly improved because of you, leading to a good number of hours of harmless fun, and my interest in chemistry has returned. Now, if you can help me with pulling copper out of my persulfate enchants here for disposal purposes, that would be awesome. Can I electrolyze the copper out, or, would I need to add some sort of oxidizing agent to remove copper? Thanks again!

[@xgvargas]

Awesome! Hey, since you're talking about printed circuit boards, you could also talk about ways to metalize holes walls in double face copper printed circuit boards. I'm kind of curious about how do they do it.

[@stephenjacks8196]

I was a QC chemist at a circuit board shop. We and other shops use NH4Cl + NH4OH + O2 recycled by cooling to precip CuCl2. Edta and ammonia complex Copper so we used NaBH4 to precip and filter out metals from waste stream. Else Aluminum foil or Steel wool also works. We had used Iron powder b4, after Copper removal filter magnetically. Also Ammonium Persulfate sold in electronics parts stores is very clean used for prototypes. Potassium Persulfate, in pool supplies, also works.

[@AustinCousineauEE]

That's the realistic response I expected. I assumed that it would be a tad too ambitions for amateur to attempt. That aside, if you found the materials to do so, I think it would make a great video. I also want to thank you for all the great content you've done. If I had found them before I probably would have chosen a chemistry related field over my current undergrad of electrical engineering.

[@dorzsboss]

I guess it would work with sulphuric acid and copper-sulphate also. Could you reinforce it?

[@polyjohn3425]

That's a good point. I was just looking through the RepRap project at the time and trying to figure a way for the 3D printer to manufacture it's own circuitry.

[@mgregggphone]

Very cool. Thanks for the video. I am looking forward to the videos on recycling these enchants. I have a quantity of used enchant here that I would love to pull the copper out of for environmental reasons.

[@dorzsboss]

I wonder if any alkalic solution also exist. Maybe ammonium-hidroxyde what is stinky though but also copper I and copper II complex exist.

[@DaniPaunov]

~3 Years after this video has been posted. WHERE'S THE VIDEO ABOUT DISPOSING THE ETCHANTS?!

[@paulg.3067]

@@NerdyNEET In Germany it is forbidden to dump copper solutions with more than 0,3 mg/l into waste water. No one will complain if you only clean you etching pan under a lot of water, but dont pour liters in your toilet! Copper is VERY toxic for water organisms...

[@stephenjacks8196]

Aluminum foil or steel wool will take out the copper, once the blue is gone filter and neutralize with "washing soda"(Na2CO3 10H2O) then flush. Filtered metal can be recycled or tossed.

[@krystiand4535]

down the drain

[@NurdRage]

They will, but they might have undesirable effects on the steel. I recommend doing a few tests on scrap steel you're intending to throw out anyway.

[@n4mwd]

I would give this video series 1000 thumbs up if I could.

[@NurdRage]

I was thinking about that. but the chemicals themselves are so hard to get or make that it would be cheaper just to buy ready-made photopolymer.

[@fercarcas]

another suggestion for future video: selective corrosion, e.g. nickel, tin , gold or alloys are preserved while copper is etched away. It is the process used in pcb industry.

[@kyleevans635]

I never understand the chemical reactions nor what he is doing, but i think it is interesting to know so i subscribe and watch.

[@NurdRage]

Iron (III) chloride sold as PCB etchant is usually labelled "ferric chloride". Since the primary audience for a video like this is the DIY electronics community rather than the hobby-chemistry community i used the more common name the DIY electronics community knows. Just like how if i made a video for french people i'd try and speak french.

[@NurdRage]

it would certainly be a pretty cool video. but the equipment investment is quite high. I'll keep it in mind for a long term project but it is currently far beyond the capabilities of my lab.

[@stephenjacks8196]

You forgot that etching circuit boards requires a "resist" to protect the copper you want to keep. Organic coating like laser printer ink, sharpie marker ink, etc would be damaged by nitric acid. Production circuit boards usually protect the copper with tin or solder plating. Several of your etchants will eat thru that protective layer.

[@ItsBBP]

Nice, really shows the chemistry involved in the name brand etchants also, (as they use these compounds anyhow)

[@LY5AT]

I cant wait to try like 3 of them, kno3 and hcl looks so easy to make

[@NOBOX7]

yes it leaves a sludge , you can actualy see the brass "spray" off the electrode , i was just wondering if you new of a brass chloride compound ? asking because as i said the reaction does not liberate chlorine. i have tried alot of other metals and your write others do dissolve just not nearly as fast as brass. thanks for your input

[@xxmikegigsxx]

I have no idea what I just watched but I definitely watched it

[@NurdRage]

Go for it! ^_^ Although i would think if you get access to bleach, sulfuric acid, and hydrochloric acid you could also get either hydrogen peroxide or copper sulfate or iron.

[@NurdRage]

Maybe your copper isn't pure then. While copper does catalyze decomposition its usually not too fast that it doesn't dissolve. If you want to make CuSO4 then use the electrolytic method i showed in another method. It'll still have H2SO4 in it but that can easily be filtered off.

[@Revegelance]

I clicked the annotation you said not to click, and I do not regret it. That's a good video.

[@stephenjacks8196]

Printed Circuit Board shops usually use Ammonia/Copper/Chloride bath and Reoxidized by Air. Can cool the bath to drop out Copper Amine Chloride complex as Crystals or can plate out the Copper. We treated the Copper waste solution (alkaline) with Sodium Borohydride and filtered out the Copper.

[@mynameismatt2010]

I love that you linked to scishow in your annotation. Hate and love cancel out, right?

[@darthtony123]

will you make a more detailed video about the copper cloride(reusable) etching process?

[@stalkinyourmomable]

I love your videos dude, where do you buy or get all the chemicals you use?

[@polyjohn3425]

That's phenomenal! Thanks for the link.

[@thomasrufer6206]

Yeah: I am goint to use it as hobby-etchant and dont need spot-on-results :) So: First: test for oxigene-deprevation. Second: If enough oxigene: Add acid. Sounds simple enough! :) Thanks!

[@Dracoflamz]

Ever thought of doing videos on the basics of chemistry? Such as nomenclature and the like?

[@jtweezy6618]

great video! just what i was looking for.

[@Weekschannel]

thanks for the great vid. i was going to etch a fuel injection pcb and was wondering what would be best. it was yesterday that i was thinking about this and u posted this vid yesterday was u reading my mind lol.

[@OktoPutsch]

You're welcome :) i spent weeks seeking for such informations, finding the right lexic in use, and avoiding bubble filtering limited results. Another book, easily found on the net : "PIHR" by Bob Willis, it stands for "Pin In Hole Reflow", 163 pages

[@NOBOX7]

i see your point , soon i will post a vid on this strange ac electrolysis as it is typicly impossible

[@Co265]

Hi. Do you know how the copper plating of the PCB vias is done? Great videos!

[@hellofyou]

Absolutely amazing how Darth Vader changed into such an Expert for chemicals!

[@W4N4B3L3G3ND]

It's a shame school isn't this interesting.

[@shidoink]

Hey NurdRage! neat video. im sure it was super duper helpful for those so inclined to build circuits. if i may, you use fast forward alot in your videos, and sometimes its hard to know when and when-not (?) we are seeing a reaction in real time. could you maybe annotate when you do use fast forward?

[@maticmlaker434]

I've used silver nitrate for my pcbs. It can be quite advantageous since it doesn't fume, can be regenerated and you can see very nicely where it is etching. Also it doesn't produce any bubbles during operation hence it wont tear up protective coating you have on the copper. Of course it's expensive (at least at the begining when you get initial silver, then it's just the cost of nitric acid, which can also be pricy, depending where you get it from), I probably wouldn't have used it, if I wasn't refining scrap silver anyway.

[@larsu1212123]

Great Video! Only miss an approximation of how long these etching cycles took. For one you said that it is extremely slow, but how long did e.g. the Nitric acid take?

[@BookProX]

I was wondering, how copper diffusion can be done on glass? Better yet, there is a way to make amorphous copper metal? Thanks.

[@WeaselWJ]

Yeah me too, but they used to teach people to use ferric/ferrous. I think they changed to II/III because it is easier.

[@NurdRage]

Thanks for watching them ^_^

[@TheRealFrankWizza]

I used ferric chloride to etch mild steel yesterday, will these other enchants react with steels?

[@onlynamelefthere]

I couldn't resist and clicked it!

[@thealchemistmaster]

Hey nurd rage, do you know a good site that sells platinum covered electrodes? And btw it would be awesome if you would do a video about how to make homemade electrolyic diaphragm. For example, you could use it to optimize the electrolysis of copper sulfate. Love your videos btw.

[@KL00100]

Thank you for your KZbin videos.

[@confiscator]

I've been electrolytically w/CuSO4 dissolved in water. I've kept the bath for future use. Will this decay over time?

[@mpelagio-engenharia]

Hi NurdRage. Thanks for this video. It help us a lot. Another important etchant used to make PCBs is Ammonium Persulphate that can be made by an electrolysis of a solution of Sulphuric Acid with Ammonium Sulphate. Could you please show us how to make it that way? Is it very complex?

[@OndrejGroborz]

Nice video. I am a bit confused, so I'd like to ask you this: 1) If tetrachlorocuppric ions react with copper to form CuCl2, and CuCl2 reacts with HCl to form tetrachlorocuppric acid again, would hydrochloric acid with just a tiny ammount of CuCl2 react with copper and even let all the HCl react and make it blue? 2)I fear there is a mistake in your equasion. I believe it is 2HCl + CuCl2 --> H2CuCl4 (--> (H2)+ and (CuCl4)2- ) There is no need of oxygen. Thank you for your answer.

[@thebestofall007]

i have used the hcl + h2o2 method and have found that using two parts h2o2 to one part hcl etched faster than a 1:1 solution does, and pure hcl takes forever to etch.

[@billjoe9017]

If you put some sulfuric acid in with method number 10, it should help boost the reaction speed by creating more nitric acid.

[@TheHunChem]

Actually sodium persulphate is pretty cheap on the webpage I order from, I stick with that (and it can be used in exotic magnesium flash powder as it is a strong oxidiser)

[@wat8437]

Do tell

[@vlogscience]

It is said that when someone does a great job, people still want to watch even if they don't understand it. like the olympics. Thus we watch. :)

[@conoba]

I have been using sodiumpersulfate with an air bubbler for years. After use I add sodiumhydroxide to fell all copper as oxide. The copper goes in a jar and the neutral sodiumsulfate water can go in the drain. No nasty fumes and I can order both chemicals by the kilo online.

[@shidoink]

I like the CuCl2 And HCl. Its pretty.

[@YamenNazer]

Woow amazing video i loved it😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍

[@BigSpecialK23]

Wow,,how the hell do you know so much?So much chemical action,,good sheeeit

[@DanCollins0]

Which etchant was the fastest? Getting fine traces requires a fast etchant.

[@polyjohn3425]

If you want to use a 3D printer for circuit board printing I would recommend just coating the pcb is a thin layer of wax, and using the printer head to push away the wax where you want to etch the copper.

[@bl0rkatr0n]

Hey NurdRage, do you think you could do a video on room-temperature ionic liquids some time? I had to make one for a project once (and failed miserably :( ), they seem pretty interesting.

[@atomic5916]

NurdRage, thank you for posting your videos! They are very useful and well done. I have a question though: can you make a video or help show me how to properly dispose of concentrated chemicals such as muriatic acid, ferric acid hydrochloric acid ect. thanks!

[@Tricknologyinc]

ATTENTION EVERYONE!:This is the best comment I've seen on here. People need to realize the TOXINS they are USING AND CREATING and make sure that they RENDER THEM SAFE and DISPOSE SAFELY. This DOES NOT MEAN ONLY NEUTRALIZING THE ACID! THE METALS YOU ARE ETCHING CREAT COMPOUNDS THAT ARE TOXIC! WHATEVER YOU DUMP WILL GO INTO YOUR GROUND WATER! This video claimed there would be a video on this topic. I haven't looked for it yet. If NurdRage hasn't posted one, FIND ONE IMMEDIATELY! AND ********DO NOT MIX WASTES EVEN FROM SAME ETCH WITH DIFFERENT METAL! ALL DIFFERENT CHEMISTRY IS DIFFERENT!*******

[@purplemutantas]

Tricknologyinc He just posted a video on recycling etchants. Otherwise take the waste to a proper chemical waste disposal facility. Ask your local garbage company if they have one.

[@Tricknologyinc]

I want to do this 100% green meaning that I do NOT trust any commercial entity to hand this stuff to and hold any confidence that they are not going to take it and mix it with fracking fluids or just drive a tank truck out to some convenient spot and open the valve... Thank you sincerely for the heads up, and please keep me in mind if you see any more info.

[@dorzsboss]

@@Tricknologyinc Then use copper chloride as it is supposed in the video you commented below. That is 100% reuseable.

[@AbstergoView]

May I make 2 requests, 1 Could you make pure hydrogen peroxide and or 2 Nitrogen Tetroxide? I dont demand it I just really would enjoy those. Thanks!

[@dannes22]

In the Potassium nitrate + HCL version, is there any good way to make pure CuCl2 and KCl from the reaction, or is it all mixed up and impossible to separate the two chemicals?

[@sonicase]

hmm i'm wondering if any of these will also take the drawn on/ironed on/ printed on circuit (sharpie/ink) off ... will some work better with sharpie, printer ink, etc..

[@insanecat1]

whats the brown/black particles that come off the copper just before turning a white-ish color? Is it just color or a metal salt? just wondering

[@noahwiegers645]

Hey NurdRage, is it possible to use 12M Hydrochloric acid for the first etchant? Thanks for a great vid!

[@Mr3wheeledbike]

if i ever get smarter i might have to try some of your vids

[@NOBOX7]

very cool vid, did you know they call h202 mixed with h2so4 purona water because it will burn your arm off lol, great video's friend im currently attempting to build small complex parts using ac electrolysis of brine solutions on the order of 50% salt , yes i said AC electrolysis at 60Hz ,any way friend it only works with brass, brass is disolved at an amazing rate in this process up to grams per minute, i suspect the chlorine gas is reacting with the brass any thoughts friend???

[@alejandrogomez8061]

I'm looking for a copper etchant that doesn't attack tin, and vice versa. Could you make a video explaining that?

[@DOOM891]

Damn it!! I had to click the thing at the end, couldn't resist Dx

[@kamuy_1337]

awesome NurdRage videos!

[@OktoPutsch]

you need to make the walls conductive to do so, in industrial process (see IPC recommandations if needed), a chemical carbon deposition through an ink process is used prior to electrogalvanization for copper deposition. Also, to preserve impedance properties of signal lines, masks are applied, and thickness of deposition is calculated upon copper ionic solution properties (time based)

[@TehFynx]

Yes. Reactions take from minutes to an hour depending on the etchant.

[@mattibboss]

will you make a video about recovery/dispose of Metal salts? maybe disposal of these etchants and a extra video about overall disposal?

[@stephenjacks8196]

add Aluminum foil to precipitate the Copper?

[@mattibboss]

Stephen Jacks fine, now i have (for example) Al2Cl3, as far as i know it is still toxic and i can't pour it down the drain?

[@robinsonqioeg129]

ah just flush at the toilet... simple and easy. where is it go? or just drain at the sink lol

[@OndrejGroborz]

Thank you, but ... 1) if it is too slow, why can it be possibly used to dissolve copper? How long would it approximately take? 2) Why is it wrong? Why does it have to react with oxygen and what are those residential cations then?

[@watchoutfortheskyrim]

for that last one can i use sodium nitrate instead of kno3?

[@AshleyReneeKuntz]

I f'n love your vids dude.

[@password3806]

how dare you call yourself goofy you amazing, amazing being you

[@theskwiffy1]

would it be possible to show Ozone reactions? or production of Ozone?

[@kcidgib86]

hello I was wondering if you could make a video on how to precipitate gold from hydrochloric acid & h-peroxide etchant?

[@occuponvoix]

just so i get it the copper is in the acid and in the next video you will show how to colect it?

[@chimerahitman]

NurdRage, could you please talk about Electro-less copper plating? Specifically, if possible, for PCB plating. Not final plating, but pre-plating as to create a small layer of copper on drilled hole walls, which later on are plated using electro-plating. Thank you very much. Like so that NurdRage can see, pretteh please?

[@nunocelestinoteixeira312]

I need to make some pcb's: How much nitric acid and ... water? Or something else? Thanks!!