Some Thoughts On Eastern and Western Archery

A discussion and my reflections on doing both Eastern and Western styles of archery.
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[@emarsk77]

I came to archery very recently, through my interest in historical fencing (or HEMA), so my focus on interest is historical and military archery. Even before starting, I found the eastern/Turkish styles more attractive, for some reason. At my club they do mostly barebow and longbow. I was initially taught string crawling with a basic recurve but I switched almost immediately to instinctive/intuitive shooting (as most people in my club), and when my bow arrived (an Alibow Tatar) I switched to thumb draw. At the moment I'm the only guy at the club shooting this style. Switching from three fingers draw to thumb draw wasn't really difficult (also thanks to the many resources like Armin's videos and The Way Of Archery book and videos), but I had to adjust my aim, and now when I shoot three fingers I tend to hit way to the left. I like thumb draw for several reasons: the arrow stays in place no matter what, I don't need an armguard, and khatra make the arrows fly perfectly straight (when I perform it correctly, which is not a given yet). That said, I'll definitely get a longbow as well, someday.

[@claudeyaz]

Good to know both. What if you injur your fingers or thumb. XD also good to train different muscles

[@rooroo9216]

@@claudeyaz yeah I’m pretty much the same aswell, the club I go to do mostly compound bows, recurves, and some flatbows etc. Me and only about 3 others use horse bows and only one guy other than me uses the thumb ring/draw. I might even be the only one who shoots with kahtra, I did it subconsciously at the very start, forgot how to do it but picked it up again just now. Also had no clue where my anchor points were and the design of my thumb ring was like a double one (I had to cut off the half that was getting in the way of my anchor points). My arrows were hitting all over the shop to start with, but now I’m a lot more accurate with it and have a better idea of what to do. I love these bows for the same reasons as above aswell as it’s sheer compact size, it can do mostly the same as most longer bows, I can still shoot the western styles, it’s more portable and I can shoot while moving or even kneeling a lot easier too.

[@gabrielboileau5896]

Totally, the eastern sides tends to have a more engrained cultures, martial roots and almost meditation. Great content as always !

[@gabrielboileau5896]

As well both are charms, the west lead to sport which was practiced by nobles in the victorian era , right ?

[@edmcgugan2079]

Really appreciate what you said about the "archery community" respecting each other and the different styles we all use. A fellow archer is a fellow archer IMHO. We all have different approaches to most things in life. Why not our archery as well? A shoulder injury made shooting conventionally very difficult for me so my rig now is a light draw compound with a homemade carbon fibre hockey stick and cable operated trigger release jammed into the right wheel of my wheelchair. Works. Gets me outside in the fresh air. Archery is good therapy! Especially during this "lockdown". Thank you for your videos. Great content. Great respect for others. Thank you.

[@xenophon5354]

We're kinda comparing apples to oranges here. There are a number of traditional Western archers in the West currently who are trying to revive Medieval Western archery, which would be far more comparable to traditional Asiatic archery.

[@adam-k]

The difference is that in Europe Archery in military had been abandoned more than 500 years ago before the age of printing. While in Asia it was very much part of the military 150-200 years ago. Therefor in Europe archery is mainly used for recreation. Not even hunting. People hunted with guns. That said Europe absolutely had their own mounted archers their military archery was absolutely similar to asian military archery. Archery is not one thing, not in Europe not in Asia. In Medieval Europe people used long bows, flat bows, small and large composite bows. They have shot 3 finger, Slavic, thumb draw, left and right. They have shot on foot and on horse back. They have even shot longbows from horseback. Similarly in Asia they have used all kind of bows in all kind of drawing methods in all kind of context. People on these continents did not live in isolation. And each continent consist of many different cultures many different climate and geography. The only thing is that now called "western archery" is being reduced to "Modern laminated bows using 3 finger draw + English longbow" and Asian archery is being reduced to "Mongolian and Turkish archery" When people do target shooting they will be more static then when people shoot as part of an activity like hunting or horse riding. That is true in all cultures. Kyudo archery is static Japanese mounted archery is not.

[@alexyatsyuk70]

In 1812 year the russian cavalry fought napoleon troops with bows and arrows. the bashkirs. though no harm could have done to the armoured french hussars

[@kaikart123]

"and Asian archery is being reduced to "Mongolian and Turkish archery" that's obviously very wrong since even Bhutanese and Tibetan archery are pretty much known in the world of archery and I don't even talk about Kyudo or Korean archery. Traditional Eastern archery is very much more preserved and still diverse than Traditional Western archery which actually has been reduced to flatbows and longbows only. Also Kyudo is actually used both on horseback and on foot.

[@Rynewulf]

@@alexyatsyuk70 You mean cuirasseurs? Hussars by then had no armour or at most thick clothing, but cuirasseurs (which the French famously made more use of than others) retained large metal breastplates and helmets

[@jwhippet8313]

Did Europe have mounted archers? I thought only Turkey and Hungary had mounted archers and Hungary abandoned the practice.

[@anotherhistoryenthusiast5874]

@@jwhippet8313 Yes, but much earlier, at the ancient times. For example the Scythians were known horse archers. Before the Middle Ages, europeans mainly used composite bows too. Romans, Greeks, Celts. This is why I don't like when people call composite bows "asiatic", ancient europeans, ancient and medieval north africans and middle easterners used these kinds of bows as primeraly ranged weapons too. Central asians preserved it the longest, but we should not call it asiatic bows just based on that. This is why I call these kinds of bows conposite, laminated, or recurve bows.

[@xSpiegelschattenx]

Thank you so much for sharing your love of archery with the world. Many of us have been guided into this activity thanks to nice people like you.

[@KK-kg9hv]

I have been doing both styles for about two years and enjoyed the progress on both. I found the skills translate into each other. Concepts such as string picture, point at the target, arrow trajectory, head position, and canting the bow are making more sense to me now.

[@dunerino892]

thanks Nu, nice comparison! yes every style of shooting has its place and meaning

[@dylanfrancisbravener8513]

It's nice getting to know you more! Have a wonderful day!

[@eugenemcgloin6780]

This was a really neat video, thanks!

[@aarondavenport3143]

I feel like the significance of English archers gets overlooked so often. They were slinging bows with 130 pound draw weights its insane. Archers in western militaries were those lacking the station to be knights (i.e. afford the horses that made the knight). So archers were used to support the infantry while eastern archery began with the nomadic cultures that relied upon it for sustenance. And conversely even the lower stations owned horses (with the exception of the Japanese) so it makes sense that the former is associated with being more static

[@aarondavenport3143]

And again that's what I mean, it's such a gross misunderstanding. English bows were actually more powerful in terms of draw weight, because they spent their entire lives building up the muscle to shoot. So contemporary archery shows eastern bows as being stronger only because nobody can draw an authentic long bow from the period lol

[@thescholar-general5975]

Great video! I really like your point about simply hitting the target being the objective in many eastern styles. I am fascinated by Chinese, Manchu, and Mongolian styles myself because of the unabashedly martial ethos present in these styles. Have you thought of trying some turkish flight shooting and making a video about it? Also, have you ever messed with a manchu ring?

[@primafacie5029]

Keep up the great content

[@gizmonomono]

I too started with Mediterranean, and loved it. Until I discovered Armin's channel and thumb release. Having tried it it felt so much more natural. The longer draw, the fact that the arrow is pressed up against the bow so it doesn't move when you move and so on. But the most important thing in my opinion is the very basic way your body moves. With the expansion on release you move the bow out of the way of the arrow naturally. Unlike with Mediterranean release where you expand into the path of the arrow. Just doesn't feel as natural. The there's slavic or persian draw which, for me at least, is unmatched in speed. Kind of the best of both worlds. But for nice relaxed, meditative shooting, I prefer thumb release.

[@mimas3346]

You can use a Mediterranean draw and shoot the arrow from the far side of the bow. I taught myself to shoot a bow when I was a kid and that's how I always did it. I find there's a tradeoff to shooting from one side versus the other. It's a bit easier to aim with the arrow on the near side, but it also presents more arrow clearance issues, as you say.

[@gizmonomono]

@@mimas3346 Yes, I tried it. For me it's just too cumbersome. Too clumsy. I know some people love it, but I personally don't see the point. Thumb draw and persian are far better alternatives for me. Thank you for the suggestion, though. Appreciate it.

[@mimas3346]

@@gizmonomono I hear you. I didn't teach myself to shoot from the far side of the bow with a mediterranean draw because I thought there was a point to doing so, so to speak, but because I just assumed that's how it was done and no one ever told me otherwise. I can see how, if you're not used to it, shooting this way would seem awkward. Now that I'm not a kid anymore, I shoot compound bows, long bows and Asiatic bows, and when I shoot Asiatic bows, I use a thumb draw and wear a thumb ring. I don't find that any given shooting style is "superior" in a general sense to any other style, but that each style offers sets of advantages and disadvantages that them well suited to achieving different goals.

[@gizmonomono]

@@mimas3346 I agree. Each style has it's own benefits, it just depends what purpose you use it for. What ever works for you, and what ever you practice most is probably the best style for you.

[@PXCharon]

I shoot primarily asiatic recurve, thumb draw. It stems from a lifelong association with East Asian martial culture. My Dad is an Isshinryu black belt, and I just grew up with that small second cultural influence in my life. I'm a bit of an anime nerd, took Tae Kwon Do and Kendo when I was younger, speak and read a little Japanese, love Romance of the Three Kingdoms and a good cup of hot tea. I learned from your channel how to appreciate modern competitive recurve and your earliest archery videos really gave me the drive to start shooting, even though I knew back then I wanted to shoot off the illegal side of the bow. By contrast, I'm also a HEMA practitioner who focuses heavily on rapier. So, not a total weeb. Just about 68%...

[@gegegebebebe5087]

Thank you for your insights.

[@hairutheninja]

Finally got my first eastern style bow 53 inch mongol from toparchery at 30lbs looking forward to trying out the eastern side of things in particular learning the thumb draw. I've always thought it was a cool technique and like how it works to minimize pinch when overdrawing shorter bows.I like the historical awesomeness of the asiatic styles of archery. Western is what I've done for years primarily because its just what is the most accessible here in Canada, I've always loved how the "trad" recurves were visually reminiscent of the asiatic bows, I like curves.

[@bopboy7931]

How do you like the top archery bow now, how has it lasted and worked for you?

[@DerekBartlettBeorn]

7:40 - 7:58 Yeah, and in my case the Slavic is so similar to the Mediterranean that I draw and push my shoulder blades together the same way when using the right side of the bow. Doesn't even feel much like switching styles, just an angle change with the bow facing a bit leftwards but still placing the arrowhead (or the end of the shaft itself) in the direction you're aiming so it'll land there after it's done bending to the right and spinning

[@thewobblywelder8362]

Yes! I live in the states and won multiple Olympic archery shoots using nothing but a bare bow and a stabilizer. It was natural for me! Or ‘instinctive’. I even beat many at the compound level using my trusty bare bow during certain competitions. No sights, nothing special. I just recently found a very acute fascination with the mongol archers of Ghengis Khan and am ordering an eastern style bow tomorrow. I seriously think this has been my missing link to my fulfillment in the challenges of toxophily! I’m beyond excited! Great video btw! Maybe we’ll see each other on a range one day!

[@billosby9997]

And that's why I'm subscribed. Well done.'

[@wanabdulhadi1268]

I practice gao ying archery. My mindset when learning it is like learning a martial art. I was dabbling in certain styles of eastern archery which include manchurian/qing style archery as well as turkish archery, but found that the gao ying form fit me the most. I felt most comfortable with it. I draw slightly past the ear as well, some habits from manchurian archery, and it’s satisfying to draw that far back.

[@lubossoltes321]

I'm shooting western style and mostly I like the exact almost scientific approach (which is quite odd as I shoot almost purely instinctive).

[@espengoffeng6768]

I haven`t been doing this as long as you have, but I`ve had the same trajectory. Now I shoot western for stumping and aiming, thumb draw for aiming and relaxation, and speed with slavic release for fun. And it feels like the tolerance for other styles have really gotten much, much better over the last couple of years. I don`t see those nasty battles much anymore (like the one between you and Shad :-) ). You used to be quite rigid, like the debate was. Now, everything has softened up. That`s very nice. (I may be wrong, but this is my impression).

[@regaeontop]

Great video!

[@Musketman84th]

Personally enjoy english longbows or modern longbows....have shot recurve and compound but keep going back to longbows. Would like to give Asian thumb draw type bows a try. Cheers

[@emberck]

I do a bit of Kyudo and a bit of Olympic recurve, I love both although they are vastly different, maybe because of it! One is calmer, more 'zen' the other more precision focus... and of course the massive difference in the bow itself! the feeling is completely different

[@thomasmurray5193]

Very informative thank you.

[@Haran400]

I don't know anything about archery and...here I am, subscrived since...a year?! Interesting video!

[@psup8]

Field archery because of the diversity.no target is the same and the way its structured like golf. And you get to a great diversity and freedom to use any bow or accessory you like .

[@arijany69]

Muchas gracias por todos los consejos y explicaciones, me han servido muchísimo. Adicional, También trato de compartir mis experiencias con arqueros de habla hispana.

[@tybowhunter8987]

been shooting for at least 10 years. started with recurve, then went to compound and more hunting. I really want to start trying an eastern archery style. really interested in the differences in form

[@musikSkool]

I suspect early western archery was more about hitting the target at all, and increasing ranges until someone missed. In a competition it saves a lot of time to measure the distance from center instead of playing to failure. Putting circles on the target saves even more time since scoring can be done from a distance without measuring every arrow.

[@donalddevall7184]

As a 6'6 white guy from Louisiana, I'm the last person one would expect to shoot a Hun style bow with a thumb release. However, is actually a very logical choice. I hunt the thick swampy woods here with my bow. For this, the shortest, lightest bow possible is ideal. I also have a 33" draw. The Asiatic bows and thumb release works perfectly with a long draw. And lastly, the string does not slap the Belly of the limb like on a western recurve, making the bow much quieter. I have no idea why these things aren't more popular.

[@micahsmith1214]

When you started talking about your dad I was like, "I thought this guy was 40"

[@scottsmith9936]

Could you list some resources for learning eastern archery and beginner bows and/or equipment you'd need to get started

[@josefbroz5531]

I do western archery (instinctive archery), becouse it is calm, eastern archery is to rush for me

[@unagiman2750]

I’ve been very curious about getting a Korean bow. I live in the US and shoot a traditional recurve. If you think about it shooting a Native American flat bow might actually not be much different than eastern archery? Or at least the martial side of it. They just also used it to hunt. What do you have to say if I want to begin with Korean archery. And what’s your thoughts on Native American archery?

[@Varentill]

Personally, I am more fascinated by traditional instinctive archery, both eastern & western. I only recently started archery, having bought my first real bow last year, but my love for it goes back all the way to childhood, and the stories of Robin Hood. When I finally found myself in a position where I could afford a bow, I knew I didn't want a modern recurve, or compound, because the root of my interest was in historical usage of the bow. In the end, because of it's historical precedent, as well as just a love of it's aesthetics, I decided to get a Japanese yumi. While books & videos on kyudo are, of course, the main source of info I can find on the use of the yumi, I am less interested in the whole of the art than just in the practical use of the bow itself. While I started with a traditional kyudo yugake, I have transitioned to using a simple thumb ring, because it's just a more practical piece of kit. I have had a lot of fun practicing with the simple form I've learned for myself, and, while I can understand the appeal of modern target styles of archery, with a focus on precision & points, for me, it feels better to just draw & send the arrow on it's way.

[@penny1210wl]

I find the thumb release similar to a compound mechanical release.

[@biosteeman]

Plate is probably the reason why. Arrows don't pierce armor very well.

[@vincewhite5087]

In army you shot for center of mass and grouping. Not as much as target.

[@youraveragemat]

western archery should be like heavy archilery. hundreds of people shooting at a large army. eastern archilery is used like a slingshot like along side with swords and horses.

[@Andarthiel]

Hey Nu, I need some advice about Eastern archery. Currently I shoot target recurve but I am very interested in getting into eastern archery(horse bows etc) however I have been told by an instructor at my club that I won't be able to find a horse bow my size (70 inch) as I am quite tall (around 195 cm). Can someone my height still use eastern bows even though they are short? Or will this cause problems with the drawing of the bow/muscles?

[@pandabanana2593]

70 inch horse bow... most horse bows aren't that long since they're by definition supposed to be used on horse. You should be more concerned with the draw length? Think Ali bow and af archery have 35 inch draw bows pretty cheap if you're thinking of trying it out.

[@ArkhBaegor]

You really shouldn't be worrying about bow length; max draw length is what matters and Asiatic bows have that in spades (more so than western bows)

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

The problem for the,muscles are the draw weight. The diffrence is that a shorter bow could have more reistance over a shorter limbs rather than having the stress devided over a longer limb, short leaver vs longer, as muscle use can be diffrent from the styles it mosty differs in the release aktivation, where it comes down to 4 variasjon :dead release, partly kyodo, manchu and Howard hill,. Snap shooting, fred bear and armin. Rhomboid activasion, olympic aks back tennssion, and trapesius in styles like turkis, korean etc where the elow drops down on release, also seen in compound. If your release is not dependant on the rhomboid there is little diffrence, one could argu that skipping holding puts more stress on the muscles but the streach refleks would appdapt. The bow lenght to body height is outdated advise the string pinch is more notacble when you go beyond 4 inch diffrence and maybe there is a reason the use thumb rings?

[@gabrielboileau5896]

Also some small eastern bows like the siphai draw up to 32 inches which is quite long, yeah check your draw lenght and the desired bow max draw and you should be good, also manchu bows is a great idea. Taking the height of a bow as a factor is almost nonsense

[@PurpleDracos]

As others have said it is more down to the the maximum draw length of the bow than over all length, although that will have its own effects like how smooth it feels to draw, forgiveness in the shot and string angle. What you should be looking for in that first asiatic bow is a max draw around 3" inches or so longer than your recurve or traditional draw as you will be looking to move where the string sits at full draw from just about your chin to about the ear. Also don't forget many manufactures will still measure their bows at 28" for draw weight so you may want to be looking at draw weights around 5lbs lighter than you think you need or possibly even lower to start with so you can get technique down. There are a lot of fibreglass bows around ebay and amazon as well as other internet shops which seem like a nice cheap way to start but it is not always clear from the pictures how well made they are and what is being hidden by the pretty leather, so it is always worth checking out known manufacturers or spending a bit more on laminated bamboo/wood and glass/carbon fibre bows. The laminated bows are also generally nicer to shoot as well. Ali Bow have a couple of fibreglass bows at reasonable prices ($80-$150) for longer draw length bows the Tibetan "Qinghai" standard length 33" draw or the Advanced Manchu "Yarha" 35" draw. The laminate bows are loverly but at $300-$400 may not be in the price range of someone that just wants to give it a go. I currently have five (I think) of their laminated bows with different over all lengths, draw lengths and limb designs. They all have their own characteristics and shoot slightly different but I think my favourite is the little Turkish one which is only 48" nock to nock with 29" draw it is only 30lbs draw but it really delivers a fast arrow.

[@stefanhansen5882]

2:28 and 3:16 you refer to as different bows, if I understand you correctly. To me they look similar. What is the difference? Thanks.

[@CDKohmy]

What kind of recurve bow do you think the Scottish and Irish used in the 15th-17th century? I know recureve not only through art, but accounts calling them scythian-like. In other words, composite or self bow and if a self bow, flat or round?

[@jamesk8730]

ceathairne.blogspot.com/2012/01/gaelic-archery.html Here's a nice write-up on gaelic archery. I would guess self bows, I don't think composite bows would hold up well in Scotland / Ireland's climate. Probably yew ideally but also elm and other native british/irish woods, relatively low draw weights, maybe 60-70 lbs average? Probably a rounded cross section but wider and thinner than an ELB of similar draw weight. (I am not an expert)

[@asadulmakki1]

[@jonaslindqvistmedfors2279]

But what about Nordic archery?

[@fahryabrus3669]

hi nu sensei. does shooting thumbdraw affecting your western overall form or not?

[@NUSensei]

It shouldn't. That's one of the things that I was trying to establish with this video: most archery forms have lots of common skills, and doing one doesn't mean you will deteriorate in the other.

[@meitaasyifaramadhani2126]

Not using VS. in the title? Oh I get it, unlike certain someone.

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

If one where to use vs. One would or should be inclined to analyse the diffrence with science, hyposhesis and analasyses of teknuiqe and physical requirements, you would also need physics. Ranting hyperbole about personal exsperiance and opinions wont cut it.

[@MarcRitzMD]

How come Western archery seems somewhat more homogenous than Eastern archery.

[@anotherhistoryenthusiast5874]

It did not survive as well.

[@user-pb5nj1gi1p]

It's simple for me. I am a Mongol.

[@expertssay3869]

I want to hear more of what your dad says. That is amazing start please tell us more. Totally intrigued. Have a disclaimer and revert all to me who criticise. Please please please share and I wish I had a Dad with strong views.

[@NUSensei]

I'd rather not. As entertaining as older generations of traditional parents might be, a lot of views come off as abrasive and bigoted. I have long-term mental health issues because of being continually undermined by the people who should have supported me in my choices. Every time a piece of traditional gear comes in for me, I get the same commentary that it's better than the modern crap that people use, and I just feel like saying "well f--- you too".

[@expertssay3869]

@@NUSensei ok understood. Not to worry. I'll look into it myself. We've all got to grow a thicker skin. 😀

[@treborschafer3945]

I think Western Archery has degenerated. The more martial aspect is a better skill to preserve for posterity. I shoot recurve as I am still a beginner, but I do it with just barebow and with the intention of upgrading to the kind of Longbow my ancestors would have taken to France and Scotland.

[@viizualstm]

can i have a bow lol

[@Daylon91]

Eastern style of archery; their bows and techniques were/are superior to western style of archery. Look at the Manchu bow and the fact it was used all the way into the 1800's and how much more efficient eastern bows were compared to mostly sticks and strings

[@mimas3346]

Manchu bows are actually not more efficient. Just the opposite. Compared to an English Long Bow with the same final draw weight, a Manchu bow will store as much as 50% more energy, but it transfers that energy to the arrow less efficiently because the Manchu bow has much heavier limb tips (i.e., the Manchu Bow has much higher "virtual mass"). In order to achieve a decent efficiency, the Manchu Bow must shoot very heavy arrows, on the order of at least 15 grains per pound.

[@Daylon91]

@@mimas3346 it was designed to shoot heavy arrows lmao. It shot heavier arrows more efficiently than the longbow. The longbow rarely if ever shot over 10gpp plus the longbow is a less efficient spring. It dont matter if the how is "heavier" its design is much better than a stick and a string.

[@mimas3346]

@@Daylon91 You're not thinking like an engineer. Manchu bows aren't "better" than English Longbows. They represent a different set of tradeoffs. English Longbows are better at shooting lighter arrows at higher velocities and flatter trajectories. They also don't suffer from delamination in hot and humid weather, and they're cheaper and faster to make. If you compare an ELB and a Manchu bow that have the same final draw weight, the Manchu bow will reach higher draw weights much earlier in its powerstroke. This (and its longer powerstroke) enables it to store more energy, but higher draw weights earlier in the powerstroke, where biomechanical efficiency is lower, can also cause strain issues for the archer. Like any bow, Manchu bows become more efficient as arrow mass increases, but at any given arrow mass, an English Longbow will be more efficient at transferring stored energy to the arrow than the Manchu bow.

[@Daylon91]

@@mimas3346 again nope. Compare any poundage arrow to both bows and the manchu will perform better because of how it is constructed. Jeez man the longbow/flatbow is the least efficient out of all bows.

[@mimas3346]

@@Daylon91 Based on Joe Gibbs speed testing his 160 lb Yew longbow: Stored Energy (est.): 207.89 J Arrow: 0.075 kg - 7.23 GPP Arrow KE ≈ 138.7 J Efficiency @ 7.23 GPP ≈ 66.7% Bow virtual mass ≈ 0.0374 kg Efficiency at 18.83 GPP ≈ 83.91% Based on CustomThumbRings.com's test of their 59 lb JZW Manchu Bow (made from modern materials): Stored Energy ≈ 111.98 J Arrow: 0.072 kg - 18.83 GPP Arrow KE ≈ 79.51 J Efficiency @ 18.83 GPP ≈ 71.0% Bow virtual mass ≈ 0.0291 kg Efficiency @ 7.23 GPP ≈ 48.73% Got that? The ELB is approximately 66.7% efficient shooting 7.23 GPP arrows and approximately 83.91% efficient shooting 18.83 GPP arrows. The Manchu bow is approximately 48.73% efficient shooting 7.23 GPP arrows and approximately 71.0% efficient shooting 18.83 GPP arrows. The Manchu Bow, even when made using modern materials, is less efficient at transferring energy to the arrow at any arrow mass. At higher arrow masses, efficiency for all bows increases. Manchu bows' lower efficiency is a price worth paying if the goal is to shoot very heavy arrows at medium velocities because at some point, the Manchu bow's greater stored energy multiplied by its lower efficiency equals an arrow with greater KE and velocity than an ELB's smaller stored energy multiplied by its greater efficiency. I have a Manchu bow. You really do have to shoot heavy arrows with them. If I shot a 7.23 GPP arrow, most of the bow's stored energy would be left in the bow after arrow launch. That would cause the bow to vibrate so violently that the siyah joints and other components joined together by epoxy resins and fasteners would quickly rattle apart.

[@ixxgxx]

If this isn’t Asperger’s, I don’t know what is.