Tormach 4th Axis Trunnion! Part 1 WW140

Modeling & Machining a 4th Axis Trunnion in Fusion 360 for the Tormach 1100 CNC Mill!
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[@occamssawzall3486]

John. Please. Square up your stock prior to doing parts like this. Takes but 5 minutes to ensure you have a trued up datum surface. Always cringe when I see picking up to relocate a WCS off of raw stock. You don't know if that stock surface is warped, tapered, twisted etc. especially if you're trying to get two features concentric to eachother on either side of the part like this. Raw stock is not a datum surface...

[@tsw199756]

Occams Sawzall I think he's under the assumption the stock is as square and parallel as his Fusion model.

[@occamssawzall3486]

Cad-Cam_Man I may end up wrong. But I'm betting a good .015-.020" TIR along the axis of that fixture. Honestly I would have just turned true a large diameter piece of round stock, chucked it and centered it in the 4th axis and milled the fixture directly on the 4th axis. And if I was feeling particularly fancy add tramming flats and a tooling ball location

[@ChrisShucksmith]

once the centre is in good and tight, it's going to flex that bracket every which way as the 4th axis rotates (since centre hole not necessarily along the centre axis of the pin). Would go for: bar stock, clean up outside, face, center drill, break edge. part off then edge break previously chucked face. Insert into rotatory table in mill, reduce thickness of bar 1/3rd centre section over length of held part + clearence to give flat surface to mount block against. Drill and chamfer 1x clearance holes for securing and 2 holes for locating pins.

[@tsw199756]

Chris Shucksmith Toss the thing in the scrap bin and start over.

[@occamssawzall3486]

Chris Shucksmith Might not. It's not going to be that much tail stock pressure. It's just drilling holes. But ya. I would have made sure the center axis passed thru a solid piece of material rather then separated by that cut out. Plus with the part in the fixture as long as it's a snug fit it shouldn't flex that much. But that would require tramming the fixture with the part already in it. And by the time you're done milling the part to fit correctly and be used to tram the fixture, coulda just drilled the holes. It is a good train of thought, but poor execution and not the best application for the part

[@ProtoSimTechnologies]

I gotta say, I learn so much from these videos by just listening to you talk while you're working with Fusion 360. All of the little shortcuts and tips/tricks come in very handy. That's why I love this channel ;-)

[@brennerfab770]

I use Loctite 648 to retain bushings in Ohlins motorcycle forks. When I am working with steel and aluminum interference fits similar to what you are doing I usually pop the steel part in the freezer and when I am ready to fit them I warm up the aluminum. They then go together with almost no force necessary. Only drawback is that you don't have much time to do it as the parts go back to static temperature pretty fast.

[@TheRealFrankWizza]

I've seen your loctite used by machine manufacturers to affix a worm gear to an a axis drive. Works reliably.

[@occamssawzall3486]

The incessant yapping of that "parts have moved capture move?" Box has successfully made me hate Fusion for assembly of any kind. Yes. I moved it. I know I moved it. I wanted to move it. Stop asking me! Without fail after 20 minutes of trying to assemble anything I'm yelling at my computer....

[@chiefmachining7972]

Never understand that either if I'm clicking around moving it's because I want to move it

[@occamssawzall3486]

I get that it's a "feature" to save multiple assembly positions. Ok. Great. But for then love of all that's holy PLEASE give me a way to turn it off!

[@billgreathouse1913]

I didn't have time to scroll all.of the comments so forgive me if this is a repeat. use a piece of TGP material in the 4th axis after putting centers spots in the end. machine the cut out after assembling the reunion. don't forget to dial in the TGP prior to machining. Once done, every thing should be concentric etc. use 1144 stress proof to minimize warping from material removal .

[@warwickben]

I would of put a pin on the other side vs a live center hole . Then machined a part that's bolted to the table , and have a bearing pressed into it. The second pin could be a light press fit . You could simple press it out and have a few reunions you can swap in and out . I believe this would be more ridged .

[@D2iAuto]

I'd just like to thank you personally John. I'm a 24 year old mechanical engineering student from Australia and in my last year now. I run my own automotive business and have designed and built a few cnc routers myself. I absolutely love watching your videos and they help so much with fusion 360 ( that's what i use mostly) and watching all your machining videos is so mesmerizing and informative. I appreciate all that you do and hope that one day i can run my own workshop as good as yours! Keep up the good work!! A++++++

[@intagliode]

Rule of thumb. Thou per inch John. With that fit you could have heated the ally and dropped in the pin. I find 680 loctite the best to use in the workshop.

[@Pow3llMorgan]

Don't put your box of fine gauge pins in where all the chips fly, you barbarian!! :D

[@glennedward2201]

Yeah I’ve been guilty doing it. Eventually you realize negligence matters.

[@MrDaniell1234]

most of the tormach machines and add ons are on the tormach website as solid models

[@ChrisDePrisco]

About extruding to a face, have you tried the "Chain Faces" toggle in the extrude menu? I just discovered this yesterday but after you select the face and it gives you an error, it seems like selecting "Extend Faces" instead of the default "Chain Faces" makes it behave like you'd expect. I don't know why it won't extend to a face automatically though - like Inventor does.

[@bcbloc02]

Loctite retaining compound has been featured various times on my channel. I keep a selection of sealers and adhesives for various projects, oftentimes it is just the thing!

[@nickeschenbrenner971]

killing that 4th axis.....!

[@StizzyChrizzy]

Hey John, out of curiosity; have you taught yourself Fusion, or have you taken classes? Because while I'm fairly adept with Inventor, I'm nowhere near the same level with Fusion.

[@honsbeekiejj]

painful to see that gage set still in the machine while machining

[@garethjones7182]

Just as painful to see gauge spelled as 'gage'!

[@m93sek]

Twisting causes tangential forces, not radial

[@marderbeast]

i love how you talk yourself into " it'll be alright with the loctite" :))

[@Ujeb08]

John, I doubt very much that you have a coaxial alignment from end to end (concentricity). if you drill the ends like you did and then remove a lot of material out of the middle section, the part will tend to fold up. To verify; install the part in a lathe - pin into a collet and indicate the run-out in the hole at the opposite end and I think it will wobble considerably. I would have squared the part up(oversized), then rough milled out the middle, bore the ends. And finally - like others below said, finish mill while using the 4th axis.

[@Indignantarms]

Anybody else like the video before you watch it!!?? :)

[@GrasshopperJune27]

Not sure why you didn't start long on the block, mill a round boss, and call it a day instead of making a hole and pressing a pin. An integral boss saves time, eliminates possibility of slip, etc.

[@DoRC]

ahhhh precision vise as a press.. why not

[@tsw199756]

Good luck having that 60 deg. center hole in line with the centerline of the 1/2 inch pin. You are a trustworthy soul relying on the extruded edge to hold the thing in line with the bored hole. How are you assured that the cutout floor will be flat and the vertical walls perpendicular with the centerline once it's mounted ready for use? Just because you cut it doesn't automatically make it correct.

[@earth111]

Have 10 kids and you wouldn't have to teach these videos, then they say no we want to exist, and so Greg told me I'm smarter than the shop, although there's no one else to work in the shop, so if not in the shop we made the space station

[@kmcwhq]

Loctite 680 is the strongest. I've had 1" bushings in the press that were "glued" in place with 680, 10 TONS on them and NOT moving. Heat to 350F and it will release.

[@GeofDumas]

"God bless GrabCad" AMEN! Hey John, fusion has been slow and crashing for me fairly often. Do you have this issue much? I'm not sure if this is just a signal that it's time for a new PC or not Speaking of 2d pocket, It turns out its great for engraving. I just tell fusion I'm trying to clear out the area with a thou and a half endmill and it ends up making a fairly distinct engraving even though it's bare, hardened stainless.

[@marcio.roberto.torneiro4897]

Hello, do you know how to drill holes in the mill using digital for example 8 holes or 7 and with initial angle of 112.5 degrees, and the end how do I have to put? Or then divide 7 holes but with initial angle of example 57 degrees and the end? I did not find the logic for the data in the digital display, in my case my and the bell but the manual is not helping.

[@vegandiver]

add a vent hole under anything you press. otherwise you trap air under there and you won't get as good of a press.

[@AiRGuNNeROriginal]

For long press fits, I normally will drill a small bleeder hole through to give the air someplace to go as you press the pin in.

[@motoerhead85]

why you dont use a six side Rod so it cant move in the jaws of the 4th axis ?

[@PeteBrubaker]

Came here to say this. Or use a 4 jaw chuck, or bolt it to the plate. I don't understand pressing in the pin, just seems like extra effort. Turn it in the lathe, and use the chuck & positioner to put flats on it in the mill. Flip it and machine the fixture.

[@craigr3941]

hey John, just curious why the choice of press fit in lieu of a shrink fit. similar to warming bearings and "freezing" the home shaft, you run a much lower likelihood of deformation due to misalignment, especially with dissimilar metals. Anyway, that's only an industrial mechanics opinion/question. keep up the great work and keep ever forward! best wishes, Craig.

[@kennethkustren9381]

WTH ??? I THOUGHT U WERE A MACHINIST !. . . why dintchu build a real Trunion axis from scratch ?

[@gredangeo]

I'm honestly perplexed you would use that 4th axis. The other one that is able to be put on the right side away from the tool changer is better. Second, I wouldn't use a Chuck. I'd rather have something bolted to 4th axis Face as a tombstone or something. But whatever, if this is a way to see if the part can still be done like this, and these components are what you had to work with. No matter, no big deal. Just my 2 Cents of thought.

[@b3nsb3nz]

Do yourself a favor and get some parabolic drills. You can really push those, I almost never bother peck even. Maritool has cobalt Morse branded ones and they are pretty affordable. Ever try 3d horizontal for floors? I like how that tool path "sees" more of the geometry and outputs a nicer looking toolpath, its also seems better at avoiding leaving the little cusps it looks like 2d missed on this part.

[@lewishughes7740]

I love John, really makes my bum hole tingle, cracking stuff!

[@occamssawzall3486]

Lewis Hughes might wanna see a doctor about that...

[@karlwooster-wsutc8919]

Does that model of the rotary still exist on GrabCAD still exist? I'm not seeing it and Tormach doesn't seem to have a model of the 8" on their website.

[@cncit]

I don't think the two faces of the trunnion will be parallel too each other as the stock wasn't machined squared before machining the ends..? I would have used round bar on the lathe and turned the faces then finished it on the rotary table..it's always trial and error with new designs though, keep up the great videos!

[@lukewilliamson74]

Just curious here and excuse my dumb question (if it is one). Is there a reason not to thread a hex rod and the trunnion while using a locknut to secure it in place? This would make it a modular fixture for use with other trunnions you might need to make.

[@2222e100]

Is there a reason you used loctite 648 rather than 603? Or is 603 only for brass? I have had great results using 603 on stainless.

[@16siemon]

uhm okay, 648 is one of the best out there, but.. it needs a litle room to work. For that press fit, trowing the pokeybit in the freezer for a couple hours then should just be able to tap it in.

[@jonl8539]

Why not get a piece of 2.125 round true up on lathe put in 4th axis and do both processes without removing ?

[@BerndFelsche]

Why didn't you machine some chuck flats onto a longer piece of square stock instead of joining a round pin into the trunion piece?

[@joshuawentworth7426]

Wont leaving the 1 thou on the bottom of the trunnion make the distance from the part to the center of rotation different than it is in Fusion and mess with your tolerances?

[@soymilk3211]

john, what tooling plate do you have on there now? It looks smaller than the tosa plate you had on there before.

[@the_real_ch3]

"let's see how she feels" [inserts tip] "oh yeahhhhhh"

[@TylerBrigham]

better to just mill a square or triangle onto the piece and not worry about a press fit slipping. its all one piece

[@billdlv]

I would move the part to the center of the vise in the future when using the vise to press parts together.

[@djeletropopstarify]

hi NYC CNC it is in any way simular to learn cnc machining on ardruino cnc and fool size cnc center?

[@pug2o5]

Heat the trunnion, and freeze the dowel pin. Then press in. No glue required :)

[@pug2o5]

Rule of thumb from AvE if I remember correctly, 1 thou for every 100 degrees C?

[@TheWargod56]

also the upside down compressed air trick works a charm, no need to wait for a freezer

[@glennedward2201]

Agree I would use my induction heater just like any shrink fit holder. Tell you what it works great for a lot of projects presuming you can fit within the 4” coil.

[@NukeChikin360]

Please help, I cant find the right post software for the 4th axis

[@bojibka]

Aren't you worried that Judd can cut his paws on metal chips, walking around the shop like that?

[@brentonrawhoof1967]

Am I the only one that cringed when the orange vise was used to press in a pin lol?

[@drhender6943]

+NYC CNC John, I just finished watching your video from the walk-through of Pierson Workholding's shop and the discussion you had with Jay. In watching this video, it immediately struck me that you should be creating a trunnion that supports four or five parts so you can setup four or five blanks at a time. Come on, John... Think Lean! ;)

[@ZaneWuffy]

so like, i just want to watch an entire hour long video of nothing but machines making chips. that'll be just great~

[@jamesriddle3220]

John in a case like this I would heat the part to 300-350 degrees F, the dowel pin will slide right in ( you could freeze the dowel pin to buy some time on assembly, Just put in a freezer will do the trick). The neat part of doing it this way is the dowel pin will seat parallel and concentric to the bore. Jim

[@jamesparker308]

hi there am fairly new to this cnc machines but was about to purchase an al 960b lathe and bf20 mill, can anyone tell me how hard these are to use if you haven't had any experience with computer ,cad etc. seems like my money would be better spent on the pcnc 770?just a thought cheers.

[@patrickmcclintock7027]

John, I don't know how you find time to do these great projects. We could really use something like what you've built, but it takes someone willing to bite the bullet and stay late or come in on a weekend to make any shop-built tooling, unless it's just vital to a job... usually that's me, which is fun. Perhaps that's the secret, you make time for it. Haha. I might have to infringe on the patent you surely have pending on this little device!

[@BTheBear]

When extruding to a face you can tell Fusion to extend the plane for the face indefinitely. A menu item labeled "Chain Faces" appears. The reason for the behavior is you can extrude to a non planar face, or multiple faces, leaving the curved surface/multi-planar face on the extrusion. However when it doesn't see a plane to collide it freaks out because the extrusion is now indefinite. You can fix that by bumping that button to extend the face.

[@170cuda]

I learn something new every day. I had no idea the word CAM can be used as a verb. So when I draw a part, I will tell people I am CADing a part. And..... when I am applying tool path, I will tell people I am CAMing a part. Neat!

[@sharpx777]

you need to download the loctite tech documents, there is detailed info in those. with interference fit if you want to use the retaining compound you need heat so there is enough clearance for the liquid to create a film between the 2 parts. I'm quoting from memory but that's what I recall.It is quite strong but can be removed with heat.

[@RodRosenberg]

Very interesting stuff I really enjoy how you give the play by play on fusion 360. I will admit that I was sad when it the video ended right before the 4th axis!

[@RogerBarraud]

Everybody Loves ... John! :-) Love the accent. Keep it up, it's true #PlantPr0n :-)

[@althybaillargeon9972]

You shouldnt smack your stock on parallels, it'll create a stress in the material, only smack on machined surface. ! great video ! cheers

[@BigRigSRT]

What is the tormach Facebook group?

[@jenterl]

Really cool project and I look forward to seeing the trunion in action. I would like to mention that on future designs you might want to drill out the bottom of the dowel pin hole so there is a path for the air to escape. Why did you choose to press fit a dowel, instead of machining a round end on the trunion block itself?

[@adderknives2002]

I'm a bit late and it's been said but a shrink fit is the way to go, no risk of galling, will be perfectly in line and better holding power.

[@Motorman0297]

Funny how you want to start using the wear offset setting when programming. You are the first machinist I've ever seen program without using it.

[@asgharrezaei0138]

Thank you so much my dear , learned a lot from you , the only hard part for me is auto tool changing , related tools and how to assemble system with pneumatic ,pleasure if you help me out , good luck

[@b.p.1887]

hey John can you make parts in the unit of measurement centimeter? Ore do you have to calkulate between two measurements? nice videos by the way

[@OleTheRealG]

centimeters?? MM Thanks.

[@lewishughes7740]

Try some thermal expansion, do it at work all the time and you just can't go wrong with it

[@muskyslayer9771]

love your videos im a future CNC machinist and your videos are really awesome I have one recommendation can you make more videos on the haas that would be aweosme

[@brandonk5932]

would that locktite 648 be good for installing at barrels to receivers or is it more of a permanent bond. like once u put 1st barrel in with it(648) you'd probably have problems removing and replacing a barrel?

[@chrisstephens6673]

Consider it permanent if used in accordance with instructions and good engineering practice, but heat will break the joint and barrels can get hot, so perhaps not a good idea in case it fails in use. Best to stick with threading the parts together, if I understand your question.

[@Motorman0297]

We use it for assemblies at our shop. That stuff is very strong. Its more for permanent bonds.

[@RadicalEdwardStudios]

Why not use a shrink fit?

[@yamahaeleven]

bonding compound works great for us, we use it to bond endmills into holders!

[@szki272]

Did the floor cleanup miss a couple spots?

[@DF-zb3yk]

why not use a reamer?

[@Bigwingrider1800]

REAMER, THERE'S NO QUESTION FOR THE PRESS.

[@adamleone8278]

Burp at 10:34

[@tylerhensley2312]

the 648 was the perfect choice!

[@mohamedmekki3540]

amazing what can i say

[@seimela]

i love this one .......

[@AATopFuel]

Awesome!!!

[@seimela]

15:19

[@deserteagles948]

well, first...

[@ronb5701]

Mickey Mouse

[@jimsvideos7201]

The animations of joints coming together seems a little bit cartoonish; can you turn them off? I mean in the literal sense; if you like them or are stuck with them so be it.

[@weaves7]

I think Fusion 360 shows the animations like this to give you an example of how the joint is going to behave and/or what parts have been joined. It is over animated so you can easily see if something didn't go as planned even if you are not completely paying attention to that step anymore.

[@twm4259]

You can shut the animations off if they bother you.

[@kellybullock559]

First

[@deserteagles948]

Kelly Bullock sorry dude

[@Joshsucks69]

Nice work! 1.Yeah that loctite is great stuff 2. I always just hit the hole with a chamfer to help with starting the press of the pin. 3. Try throwing the pin in the freezer next time, will make it easier 4. Use a reamer brother! Makes quick work 5. Keep up the great videos