Tormach 4th Axis Trunnion! Part 2 WW141

Modeling & Machining a 4th Axis Trunnion in Fusion 360 for the Tormach 1100 CNC Mill!
CAM Post Processors: bit.ly/2fGpEYH
Fusion 360 CAD/CAM: bit.ly/2nOGpEF
Fusion 360 Tormach CAM Template: bit.ly/2nOGpEF
Filmed with amzn.to/2m56wsx and amzn.to/2ns1Ygp
CNC Training: bit.ly/20mj1uS
Music: Pushing the Stone - Silent Partner • Pushing the Stone - Si...
Music: Stalling - Topher Mohr and Alex Elena • Stalling - Topher Mohr... 5 Reasons to Use a Fixture Plate on Your CNC Machine: bit.ly/3sNA4uH

[@b2manufacturing]

Dude, this literally increased my capabilities, I can do a lot more with my 4th axis now

[@zumwild]

Really liked the combination of Fusion 360 and addition of the new axis and trunnion.

[@gordo3di]

Love the video John and love the honesty!

[@mr1hander]

im just getting started with fourth axis...your a great help ... appreciate your effort

[@tehsimo]

very cool to see it working!

[@Anonymouspock]

Yes! More videos to feed my CNC addiction.

[@ExMachinaEngineering]

Epic video! Just saw it, but massive kudos!!! Very informative, well explained and well made!!!

[@JF32304]

love your stuff man! bravo!

[@CarolinaCoxes]

Your enthusiasm makes me want to re-think my career... Nice video!

[@chrisdemchalk3491]

I applaud the video as there very limited examples on KZbin of tormach 4axis usage and setup let alone the fusion integration. I really enjoy the working through relife problems especially when they are being solved within normal cost envelopes. well done!

[@timspychalla]

If you want to get the tailstock perfectly straight you are going to want to indicate off the shaft on both the front and the back of the tailstock. Before doing this make sure the diameters are the same on both sides and then use an indicator on an arm to get at the backside of the tailstock if your machine does not have enough travel to reach it. Once you have it aligned good, machine a flat on the side of the tailstock to speed up alignment in the future. cheers.

[@roberthughes6240]

what I do to line a tail stock like this is put a drill chuck in the tail stock and use a bright drawn steel rod (check it's straight) clamp it in the chuck and the tail stock chuck and you have it straight in line or within a few thou! love the channel, keep up the great work and most of all keep smiling

[@alexanderrode6983]

Great video, very interesting! I have under my tailstock a fixture plate with the perfect hight and two T-Nuts, which sit in the table slot. So I can put my tailstock very fast in or out the machine.

[@PhilsProjects]

Hi John , If you want to line up the tail stock on the quick & Dirty, take a long enough shaft, machine the appropriate MT, ( or adapt one to the end of the shaft) insert it into the chuck, insert the MT into the tail stock quill and Bob's your Uncle. If you use a " nice" shaft you can use it to align your entire setup to the X axis in one shot. Thanks for the Vids, Learnt to use Fusion 360 from them. Keep them comming

[@danlamar1751]

What is MT?

[@PhilsProjects]

Moris Taper

[@danlamar1751]

- .... .- -. -.- / -.-- --- ..- (Thank you)

[@bennosgarage]

Phil's Projects heh I just typed the same thing and saw this comment. yes that's a pretty okay and quick way to do it.

[@oliverdenniss557]

Nice hair line. You really can pull that hair style off. Cool.

[@ducati543]

I use to add shim stock to the side of the live center to dial things in. Just something I use to do, kept me from wasting time.

[@iguana200]

Hi John, the first great video that I found on youtube about taking a Work offset and programming 4th axis trunnion. I am using Solidcam and figuring out how to machine a part without taking new work offset for every single side of part that I machine. So the catch is to take a zero point on centerline of rotation. It would be great if U make more videos about 4th axis trunnion. Thnx.

[@rogerflagg8253]

Hi. Great video's. Just my 2 cents worth. I've been a machinist for 40 + years and am currently running a Haas VF3 5 axis. The only real oops I saw in the first video was how you put the centre in the trunnion. You did the press fit hole first, then flipped the part and picked up the centre of the square. It's rough stock and I didn't see you indicating two sides of the stock to ensure it's vertical. You would have had fewer headaches if you just roughed the pocket, put the pin/trunnion assembly in a lathe and machined the centre with the tailstock . That would have put the centre in line with the pin. Then finish the pocket on the 4th axis.

[@JanBinnendijk]

Great Video, i've made a Trunnion for my 4th Axis too, to machine Titanium watchcases. Dialing in that "sucker" can be quite a hassle, but you could have just put a center hole and a pin in a piece of bar stock, and machine that fixture on the 4th axis.. then it is already dialed in..

[@393strokedcoupe]

A Clapper box for a shaper came to mind when I saw the tailstock. 😋

[@b2manufacturing]

I think to make more rigid use a 4-jaw chuck, and just extrude the left end of the block out to the left instead of using the pin. You can still use the live center and dial in the trunion on the chuck using your gauge, almost exactly the same way you did except 4 jaws clamped firmly in the trunion itself rather than the pin pressed into it. In fact that’s exactly what I’m going to try right now. Thanks for showing this.

[@ROTTK9]

the company photos for the 4th axis, shows it sits on parallel grooves not on guess work placement ( by guess work placement, I mean that the part bases may not be exactly square but the holes in them should be ) ... make a grooved plate where the only movement you should have to worry about is length ... then you will know that the centers match up and are inline....

[@kchigley5309]

If you ever decide to do this again...take some 2" round 4140PH and chuck it in the the lathe. Face, center drill and OD turn off the scale at the least. Flip, recenter in 4 jaw and repeat. Chuck and align the part into your 4th axis setup. Machine 3 flats on the X+ side. You now have a repeatable A0. Flip, recheck alignment and machine the required trunnion features. If your 4th axis 3 jaw won't open to 2" or you're concerned about clearance, you can turn down the side you intend to machine flats, but I certainly wouldn't go as small as you did on the press fit fixture. You'll have all machined datum features, a repeatable zero and the trunnion will flex much less. I would use the "pocket" part of the trunnion to set alignment because that's where your part goes. You can check ZA alignment in the Z+ orientation and XY alignment in the Y- orientation which would also help to expose any A axis rotation error. Also, this might be a useful tool for 4th axis setups. www.ebay.com/itm/Lathe-Alignment-Bar-3MTground-hardened-0002-034-runout-ideal-Tail-stock-alignment-/110657010235

[@aj7utu]

As long as the angle setup is good, one needs no datum fixtures if all sides are machined.

[@michaelburdue7648]

Tail stock placement suggestion. You know the center line of you 4th axis. Just measure the distance from the center line of tailstock to the flat. Then off set the turret to that distance and run gage down the side to set the tailstock into position.

[@brucec954]

Looks like a great addition to the tool box having a trunnion. The Tormach tailstock does have keys on the bottom which helps align it but it looks like you have a plate on your bed so can't use? Otherwise I agree it is a pain to set up.

[@lordgarak]

Hey John, I would get a nice big 2" diameter maybe 8" long hardened and ground reference round bar to to set up your rotary table. You also need a tapered bar or maybe a collet holder and reference bar to go in the tail stock. Get the rotary table lined up perfectly first in all axis using the large reference bar. Then get the tail stock at the right center height and parallel to the table. Then deal with the x y position and rotation of the tail stock. Measure off a reference bar in the tail stock rather than the taper inside. It can be concentric on one spot inside the taper while being out on either the rotational or x y position and vice versa. Use the same reference bar in both the rotary headstock and the tailstock. 0 out on the Headstock(on center in Z) then move the bar to the tail stock and move the tail stock until it reads 0 along the length of it. Its no different than tramming in a vise. I'd change out that 3 jaw chuck for a 4 jaw and grab right on the square. Right now you have way too much load on the tail stock and the full setup is way to weak. The part should be much closer to the chuck jaws with the work holder fully engaged in the chuck's jaws. I'm not a machinist. This is just how I would do it. -- Chris

[@lordgarak]

Actually with a bit of thought, I think I got the bit about the taper wrong. The problem with tapers isn't that it can read concentric when its not, its that you can't tell if the problem is rotation or x position, and movements in Y change everything again.

[@stuarthardy4626]

John That fixture needs much better engineering , Make it bolt directly to the RT faceplate , but I think this was proof of concept A better way instead of the tailstock would be a fully shielded pedestal bearing assembly Had a gander at the tormach post they do the 4/5/6 axis slightly different so I have removed the link as it was not applicable

[@DonDegidio]

John, If there was another pin on the other end of the fixture, all you would need is a steady rest for support

[@daniels1905]

I like that idea.

[@jarisipilainen3875]

14:57 yes did exactly how g.code told go for there and rotate. did exactly same on simulation. are you look them? its cam gives you errors, but not void them lol

[@886014]

G'day John, jump on eBay and get yourself a morse taper test bar for the morse taper of that tailstock (MT2?). They are now very cheap and will allow quick setup. They are centre drilled so you can align it with your 4th axis too.

[@RadicalEdwardStudios]

I know you already got past this point, but ... You could make this trunnion part by turning the entire thing as one piece [no pin to insert]. That'll ensure the pin is parallel with the body. Then, the pin goes in the 4th axis, and you can square it off right in place.

[@SUMOCAT86]

Nice.. You obviously already know this but you could machine the trunnion in place, and make it much more sturdy.

[@MrDaniell1234]

X is positive move in A, -X is negative moves in A or you change it in the post prossesor

[@XanderLuciano]

Beat me to it already! But spot on! The standard is counter clockwise about the positive vector of the axis. So if you define the rotary table as X, that means the rotary table would rotate counter clockwise if you looked at it from the right (+X) side. If you define it as -X instead though, it flips the vector and would then rotate counter clockwise if you looked from the left side of the machine (-X). Kinda like back in geometry when you had the unit circle. You measured the angle counterclockwise. Also right hand rule where you stick your thumb in the positive axis direction and then direction your fingers point when you make a first is the positive rotation direction.

[@St0RM33]

my thoughts exactly, it's funny how he mentions it 1 minute before he see's he has this problem but doesn't bother to change to -X and check the post if it is corrected this way

[@XanderLuciano]

@St0RM33 Haha I thought was pretty funny too. He did such a great job highlighting it and even making an hypothesis about why you would need to use -X, but then the connection between that at his inverted movements didn't quite connect, but hey, that's why I love John's channel and what makes him such a great guy. He's not afraid to make mistakes or look stupid. He could totally have just cut that part out and made it flow well, but he shows his thought process and reasoning. Say this had been a bug in the post the exposure would have brought it to our attention. But since this is just a simple mistake it presents the opportunity for now just John to learn more, but all of us as well. By showing his mistakes he promotes conversation and group thinking about the problems he runs into. Maybe we'll see a correction in 4th Axis Trunnion Part 3! And in Johns defense, he has been working out some bugs with this Post Processor so his mind is likely defaulting to post issues instead of user issues :)

[@mikecameron9097]

you need to put a chuck in the tailstock and clamp about a 3 inch piece of stock in the both of the chucks then clamp down the tailstock in the position.

[@TomZelickman]

What about setting the 4th and tailstock on a sliding plate so they are always in line? Hope you are well! Tom Z

[@chuckels431]

John, unless I missed something, why didn't you set the headstock parallel to the X axes before trying to set the tail, when you indicated the fixture in the headstock alone it was way out then you tried to pull it into line with the tail?

[@motoant]

chuckels431 I thought that too, is the axis of the headstock parallel to x axis of the table?

[@bramlettjamie]

Okay. I've watched days and days worth of this guys videos. I really like the content. but watching him indicate this piece is killing me. the raw stock isn't square to begin with. I would have machined the pockets on the end and cut all other surfaces using the 4th. It would have made them square to each other and perfectly indicated in at the same time. I like the idea of making exchangeable fixturing to go on the trunion, but I would have included a pocket for indicating on the trunion. Still really great content. I've learned a bunch from watching this channel. (some what to do and some what not to do.) Keep it up. Oh and I love the factory tours too.

[@dannyallknight]

lol this man loves his job

[@TylerBrigham]

probably should have milled the pin hole and center and then milled the trunnion part on the a axis so that it automatically ran true to your set up. some clean up cuts on the sides would give you perfect indicating surfaces to dial in the set up next time

[@MorganOliff]

Hey john. 2 quick things: The generic Haas.cps post has a variable called "make a axis other way" and it does just that. might be able to activate that for the tormach? I am lazy, I just change the negative A-axis numbers to positive and positive to negative. This works fine for G00 moves.

[@QuentinKarmark]

Great video. I found this when I was trying to locate information on the rapid turn attachment for a 1100MX. Have you any experience with that setup?

[@strokedriedrie]

Isn't it easier to set the 4th Axis Trunnion in line with the bed of the mill with a straight toolbar first, before lining up the tail stock?

[@notsofresh8563]

That tailstock has machined surfaces right on it, why can't you indicate directly off of it? Use the surfaces for parallelism and the DRO to position the tip of the tailstock center in relation to center of chuck.

[@occamssawzall3486]

Notso Fresh Because the fixture was not machined true with the pin and center hole inline. He essentially had to offset the tailstock to take out the taper the mis alignment between the pin and center hole created. That's also why he was getting that bounce back, it was the fixture springing the loosened tailstock back.

[@tailormachineworks281]

My thoughts exactly. I was wondering if the part would move also. He got the job done though.

[@notsofresh8563]

Forcing the fixture straight is a bad idea. Set the machine straight and true first. If only so it is already straight for the next job, no rememberizing needed. Then make the fixture so it sits correctly in a properly trammed machine. Would have been better if he pressed in an oversized pin, chucked the square portion up in a 4jaw and turned the pin true with the block. Probably would not have taken any more time than fudging with the tailstock. My guess is that the pin was straight until he removed the material from the middle and the piece changed shape due to relief of internal stresses.

[@occamssawzall3486]

Notso Fresh Watch part 1 and see how it was machined. Raw stock surface was used as the X zero location when the pin hole was put in, then was flipped and tail stock center was put in. Using the same raw stock surface to relocate. Alignment between the pin and tailstock center was off from the get go. Only way to align the fixture on the 4th axis was to offset the tailstock at that point.

[@attainableapex]

Was it stated what this part does? Seems like an odd part

[@grinchyface]

I thought you got rid of full retraction? Glitch?

[@trevorparnell3735]

need to be able to put the indicator in your ive center and indicate your chuck I D and face

[@GeofDumas]

Man oh man I want a 4th axis so badly. Just for the fun of it, but also for the ease of making fancy fixture tools. Question: Do you see a robodrill/speedio in your future for products like the fixture plate? I ask this somewhat selfishly as a brother owner, imagining the potential videos youd make with a machine similar to mine

[@aj7utu]

Everybody in the room "sees" as Speedio in his future...

[@soymilk3211]

what tooling plate is that?

[@VolkCNC]

The biggest issue is the flimsy design, even if just for simple drilling. Not rigid at all with the tiny dowel and cut out bar stock. Take a piece of square or round stock, machine three flats in the end for the chuck jaws to clamp on. Then machine the least amount of material to do your work holding while it is clamped up in the 4th. There was really no reason for the center of your trunnion to be cut out. As you did with the adapter plate on the Haas, machine fixtures in place as much as possible. Don't make things harder on yourself than they need to be to get things squared up.

[@XanderLuciano]

I think the only reason for the center cut out was so that he could get the part closer to the center of rotation. The benefit that has is that any angular inaccuracies (due to gear cogging, backlash, etc.) will be smaller towards the center, and exaggerated at the extremes. Because he has that chunk missing though, it bows the metal, and that's why he is seeing exaggerated error with the tailstock in.

[@aj7utu]

You meant, linear inaccuracies (on the "trunnion" face) due to angular inaccuracies, which are the same, regardless of radial position. Those can me be made arbitrarily small by some indicating. He was absolutely foolish in hogging out the middle.

[@aj7utu]

You are absolutely right. And your three flats at 120° is clever. The nonintegral spud is a blunder. I would add a few things, which permit extended unattended machining. 1. Position the tailstock and rotator as far apart as physically possible, to maximize the size and number of parts that can be machined. Use a 3x3 or 4x4 bar as "trunnion." Even consider outriggers. See 2. below. 2. Strongly consider spacers under the rotator and tailstock to raise the rotating fixture higher. This gives more clearance for higher parts on all four faces. 3. Machine a sparse pattern of tapped and slip fit dowel holes. Don't use huge hardware: For a Tormach 1/4-20 holes and 1/4 dowels (M6 and 6mm) are quite sufficient. 4. Have provision to quickly move 1 or 2 vices into position between the tailstock and rotator with "trunnion" out. Now you are really set. Operation 1 is to put in the vices, put in bar stock, fly cut the top, and put in .251 holes or .257 holes plus dowel holes. This is blank preparation. Operation 2abc, machine three sides of your parts, using CAM to miss the clamping hardware. So about 16 4-sided 3x3 prismatic parts can be made in two setups on an 1100. This is most valuable when you have your own product.

[@trued2010]

Is there a reason you cleared the x origin/axis for the duplicates since they were the same selection anyways? I'm guessing it was more of a sanity check.

[@XanderLuciano]

Just a sanity check, There's nothing wrong with keeping the same selection. You only need to get that wrong once to start double checking yourself haha.

[@jasonjones7321]

I believe your angle error in the post could be fixed by telling it that it was a -x

[@Anonymouspock]

Trippy stuff happening with the lights in the last minute or so.

[@tehsimo]

Called a dirty lens?

[@EUnit111986]

how are you compensating for backlash in your indexer? Also, you should do a video on using super long extended cutters like 3 or 4 inches extended from your holder

[@XanderLuciano]

Only move in one direction obviously ;) JK but likely he is either 1. not compensating, because why sweat the details before you know it actually works well (or maybe the backlash is not very significant) or 2. He is using a backlash compensation option in software with some manufacturer recommended value. I'm sure he'd show us the process of fine tuning that value (unless he doesn't plan on messing with that).

[@OakwoodMachineWorks]

Tormach has a video showing how to adjust the backlash. I do believe that he did a video on long tools and the conclusion was that you should do as much work as you can with a standard cutter or a stubby cutter then switch to a long one. I know he talks about it in his 80% AR lower videos.

[@EUnit111986]

Xander Luciano There is the option of compensating for backlash in the machine controller like you mentioned however, without a brake on the indexing head, you can/will run into the problem of the tool pushing the part out of position wen you rotate it to the 'tipping' point of the backlash... unless of course there is non :)

[@EUnit111986]

Oakwood Machine Works I'll take a look around for that video. Thanks for mentioning it. obviously like you mentioned, using a stubby tool as much as you can is the optimal way to go but, there are times you just need that reach to get in to those darn hard to reach places

[@XanderLuciano]

Ah I was thinking more in terms of continuous motion backlash! But you raise a good question, does this rotary axis have a brake? or does it rely solely on gearing? Even if it is only gearing, I'm sure there would be some gearing adjustment to increase or decrease the engagement as the gears wear. If your part needs to be within +/-.015, no reason to sweat a thou or two in backlash. The right tool for the job is the one that gets the job done after all

[@josephgeorge495]

10:29 neither my stock nor part has definite plane to do this , both my stock and part is 3d scanned and looks like a lump , please help me how to do this without plane/ line

[@dwalden74]

Why doesn’t Tormach make a 4&5 axis table?

[@staysheep800]

You never squared your block!

[@occamssawzall3486]

Today's phrase of the day is apparently "degrees of freedom" 😆

[@staysheep800]

Use a 1 inch rod you know is true to indicate the 2 together

[@gredangeo]

One comment after the next, is just people roasting John here. Even myself a couple times I think. (Sorry, there is just one weird thing after the next in these Trunnion videos, just don't make sense to do.) I disagree with a chuck being used and a tailstock. I would prefer to use a Tombstone bolted to the 4th Axis plate, and go from there. But that's just me though. My question to John is, would he be willing to go through various mistakes in either his opinion that he does agree with or some of our mistakes where we may have not known the whole story that he disagrees with. John is in small production, if the goal is to get a single part or two done in 4 hours (from the moment you received the order), it doesn't matter how it got made. Tweaking everything in software or elaborate fixtures doesn't add much, if it takes you two days to do it. I want John to do a rebuttal/agreement video to these comments. I would really enjoy to hear his opinion. Still, thank you very much for the videos. Aside from these two Trunnion ones for some reason (you kinda drop the ball there, compared to your other videos). You give actual solid advice, and many amazing tips. :)

[@outkast187]

Wouldnt you want to measure to be sure it was exactly .75"? For drilling, no biggie...but for milling.

[@DF-zb3yk]

you should only indicate machined surfaces.

[@occamssawzall3486]

doug farrish He didn't have any... brought that up on part 1. Raw stock is not a datum... Interestingly, the one machines surface he had, he didn't indicate...

[@DF-zb3yk]

Occams Sawzall the middle portion that he bolted his part too, that's a machined surface.

[@occamssawzall3486]

doug farrish Unfortunately it was machined to no datum... sorta a meaningless "reference" surface. Would have been better than the raw stock, but not by much.

[@DF-zb3yk]

Occams Sawzall i always indicate the surface I will machine off of.

[@kennethkustren9381]

ahh yes, if you use rubberized iron and steel products... true !

[@kennethkustren9381]

AYUP ... 1pc Base of Trunnion. Recipe: EpoxyMineral Machine Base. Stainless Fasteners. Epic Adversity Compensation. Low Tolerance-Patience Ratio. 99.725% Meekness.

[@anlpereira]

Bro, I would work for free to you only to know these machines. Heheheheh

[@zyrdima]

Tormach

[@MaxLogan73]

most machine the truinion and fixtures in position, indicating a non machined surface is not ideal.

[@tylerjones6043]

for something that could have been great, I mean you didn't really even square your block up....and you wonder where that run-out came from...

[@andyvan5692]

very nice video, and thanks for using a visual way of programming the machine; unlike the ugly d.o.s. like g-code Haas uses in it's tutorials, YOUR way is much simpler for newbies to get what you want the machine to do. this way also uses software that is a small step up from what 3 D printers use ( tinkerkad ) and far better, wish other manufacturers got the hint [ we can't get number and letters , give us a G.U.I. INSTEAD]!!

[@jarisipilainen3875]

3:59 machining is not that easy. did you square it when you made holes.just take zero on same corner not mean its straight

[@HighTechLab]

sixth!

[@fergusonhr]

does anyone else constantly hear him swallowing saliva while talking...love your vids man but I just can't take that...gives me the eebee jeebees

[@diymatt3165]

that sooooo cool

[@ninetwenty]

hated the music and fast forward. show the sights and sounds of machining.

[@diymatt3165]

first

[@diymatt3165]

say hi to me

[@diymatt3165]

lookdown lookup look

[@diymatt3165]

lookdown lookup look