Zadie Smith on Populists, Frauds and Flip Phones

I stumbled on a Zadie Smith line recently that stopped me in my tracks. She was writing in January 2017, and describing the political stakes of that period - Brexit in the U.K., Trump in the U.S. - and the way you could feel it changing people.
“Millions of more or less amorphous selves will now necessarily find themselves solidifying into protesters, activists, marchers, voters, firebrands, impeachers, lobbyists, soldiers, champions, defenders, historians, experts, critics. You can’t fight fire with air. But equally you can’t fight for a freedom you’ve forgotten how to identify.”
What Smith is describing felt so familiar - how politics can sometimes feel like it demands we put aside our internal conflict, our uncertainty, so we can take a strong position. I see it so often in myself and people around me, and yet I rarely hear it talked about. And Smith’s ability to give language to these kinds of quiet battles inside of ourselves is one reason she’s been one of my favorite writers for years.
Smith is the author of novels, including “White Teeth,” “On Beauty” and “NW,” as well as many essays and short stories. Her latest novel, “The Fraud (www.penguinran...) ,” also deals with politics and identity. It’s about a case in 19th-century London, but it has eerie resonances with our current political moment. I wasn’t surprised to learn that Trump and populism were front of mind for her when she wrote it. In this conversation, we discuss what populism is really channeling, why Smith refuses the “bait” of wokeness, how people have been “modified” by smartphones and social media, and more.
This episode contains strong language.
Mentioned:
Feel Free (www.penguinran...) by Zadie Smith
“Fascinated to Presume: In Defense of Fiction (www.nybooks.co...) ” by Zadie Smith
Amusing Ourselves (www.penguinran...) to Death by Neil Postman
“Generation Why? (www.nybooks.co...) ” by Zadie Smith
Book Recommendations:
The Director (www.waterstone...) by Daniel Kehlmann
The Rebel’s Clinic (us.macmillan.c...) by Adam Shatz
The Diaries of Virginia Woolf (www.google.com...)
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [e-mail].
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.co...) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.co... (www.nytimes.co...) .
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts (nytimes.com/pod...) or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

[@mesamies123]

Zadie Smith is brilliant. Thank you for this interview. ❤💙

[@zaras.448]

What a brilliant and deliberate mind…

[@willthecat3861]

No... and possibly no, if you mean perceptive is the same thing as brilliance. But. your average, well socialized, dog, knows more about the world she offers us.

[@peterelgood1656]

This is a little gem of an interview. It's disarming when you hear a person you admire greatly say many things that you too have concluded. I really must read my copy of White Teeth. I too buy music when I can afford it. Well done Ezra and thanks to the New York Times.

[@susanjuby256]

This was one of the most thought-provoking and insightful interviews I have ever listened to. Startlingly original and subtle. Maybe this will be the last nudge I need to get rid of my behaviour-modifying smart phone!

[@nadyayurukova]

I know she's a writer and I should just stick to her writing, but, I really, really enjoy interviews with her

[@vertexmodel1517]

Listening to our infinite experience. Our inability to leave the idea of capturing the essence. What is it that we are if we give up the idea that we are somehow.

[@thelawfus]

Weed or mushrooms?

[@vikramkhanna8533]

Ezra, u r too damn smart and philosophically sophisticated for my post work mind.

[@janespitfire9884]

Always loved this author!! Excellent thoughts and writings! Thank you Ms Smith and NY Times! Id love to see her and our next POTUS meet Ms Kamala Harris. Plus these 2 biracial women are lovely plus look related!

[@luxum11]

Excellent, excellent, f*ing excellent.

[@samuelchyman]

Fantastic interview. Definitely going to pick up one of her novels.

[@trtoer]

wasn’t aware of this writer, so an unexpected and fascinating conversation

[@helengonzalez3425]

Awwww, Zadie, I buy music, too! Loved this interview.

[@tictacterminator]

How can you listen to that horrible barbaric accent?

[@bjwnashe5589]

Excellent interview.

[@KathleenHandron]

This was wonderful.

[@Edo9River]

Virtues guide you towards the truth through the various types of clouds

[@TheUnitedMarshmallowFederation]

This was surprisingly interesting.

[@mrt.7146]

How interesting 🤩

[@Edo9River]

But money goes a long way to compensate for ignorance

[@berniemadoff9688]

This one is in the deep end of the Ezra pool. 😊

[@christinacascadilla4473]

“Zadie Smith, occasional drug user.” That cracked me up. The rest of this interview was really boring.

[@OscarDiaz-mx8ik]

didn't she write some genocide apologia awhile back? smh

[@swerves]

Garrulous.

[@airmark02]

Ugh ,,,,,, this type of elite chatter and virtue hoarding is no longer relevant to me ~

[@prez_chesspresso]

Both were positively cooking throughout this conversation, but especially good perspectives on older loneliness (of the male persuasion) followed by the refuge of marriage 58:16 onwards

[@robertrotstein5303]

“I think, for me” “I perhaps extrapolate” “I guess I don’t” “if I had to, I would call myself” “I think people are thrown” In her first paragraph alone, she puts in so many qualifiers to her thought that it all turns into an indefinite mishmash of uncertainty., declining to actually assert something. "the circumstances they're thrown into are of absolute significance". This is a profound revelation? "You can't fight fire with air". When I blow out a match, that’s exactly what I do: by blowing cool air, I suddenly lower the temperature so that combustion is no longer possible.. Zadie Smith's writing is a potpourri of unrefined impressions which add up to not very much. That may account for her appeal. But I've never been able to complete reading a single article of hers, including this interview.

[@nickolette22]

That’s because she is not imposing her view. It’s a more gentle way of giving opinions that leaves room for other opinions too

[@prez_chesspresso]

She’s for the uncalcified

[@Lucysmom26]

@@nickolette22 I agree nickolette. Someone being clear they're voicing opinions and that they understand they're opinions (and not facts or universal truths) is refreshing and one of the reasons I like Zadie Smith, who could be a lot more arrogant than she is and get away with it completely.

[@nickolette22]

@@Lucysmom26 right! I like to go back to her just to keep in check my compassion levels :) some people make you a better person..

[@tictacterminator]

A New York Times Jew and British academic are honestly the last people you should be listening to what they have to say about populism. If you want to hear what regular people have to say, your average everyday run of the mill folk, ask them yourselves.

[@arthurswanson3285]

I prefer the company offered, thanks.

[@BajaJones-iq2cp]

I got here by mistake. This station is complete garbage.

[@GeraldineGeh]

Great music? Are you friggin kidding me? The music now is garbage. Some of it is fun.......like the Eating the Cats songs and so on. But that is Dr. Demento stuff (which I have loved since I was a kid), but music, good music.....sorry....it barely exists anymore.

Interesting woman. She says she’s black. Are her kids classified as black too? Confusion confusion confusion.

[@realworldhuman]

What a bizarre thing to say

[@charlesmiv3842]

Why do you care about someone's race?

[@ben-fe3zy]

If that is all you can take away from this conversation, you have a very dull mind

[@tadjani5191]

Why on earth would you care?

[@rmdbourg]

Honestly, a disrespectfully ignorant question.