The ‘Quiet Catastrophe’ Brewing in Our Social Lives

[@TenTenJ]

Coming from a big extended Armenian family in the US, one relative would take turns hosting everyone on Sunday. My cousins and I would have our Sundays free with adventure and familial love. We all grew up, got our careers, moved around and that tradition is gone. It was healthy and we all miss it.

[@mary_puffin]

Pursuing educational and economic endeavours is what leads to the death of community. I had the same as a child but now all us siblings and cousins are spread apart in different states and countries, where we moved for school/ work/ a chance at a better life. You get the better life and higher salary alright, but the cost is great.

[@TenTenJ]

@@mary_puffin yes indeed

[@lunazamoracreative]

I grew up in a Mexican multigenerational family. When I moved to the Midwest, I felt alone and isolated for 30 years. Sad. I hope to go back soon!

[@tammiepulley7167]

I lived in a few different “group” or roommate situations over age 50 and the success totally depends on the quality of the housemates. Be very intentional. One bad apple can toxify the entire home. As this was always true even in the far past where one crazy or drunk uncle could ruin a family home.

[@8cupsCoffee]

It's very easy for a group situation to become intolerable because of one person, maybe that's why we don't bother anymore. Like if there's one toxic person in the family, everyone dreads going to family parties because that person drinks, fights, says racist things etc. then everyone wants to leave early because we are empowered, and no longer feel like we have to put up with toxic people.

[@nancybartley4610]

How about how arrogant/snobby about whom we associate with? People seem to decide based on very little whom they will associate with as opposed to really getting to know someone. Also, did we use to have relationships across age groups? What happened to mentoring younger people? What happened to volunteer work?

[@klowen7778]

Perhaps it's a 'Quiet Catastrophe' if you happen to be among the more 'extroverted' folks among us, who desperately _need_ continuous 'socializing' (and also account for the most narcissism). But speaking from the POV of the aprox. one third of the population who are of the 'Introverted' persuasion, IMHO the thought of more 'privacy', let alone being free from screaming kids, barking pit bulls, and trashy next door neighbors, sounds positively heavenly! ;-p

[@amygirl9534]

Correct. College dorms were a nightmare for many of us. It has nothing to do with pride. It has to do with something called peace and quiet.

[@TheChocofusion]

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[@TheChocofusion]

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[@deborahcurtis1385]

It's still essential to form human connections. They don't have to be noisy connections but they do need to be meaningful. Few thrive in absolute social isolation and that's what this is about. It's not about the bias towards extroversion in western society. @@amygirl9534

[@palmereldritch_6669]

Sure. People are awful. And yet we need them. We are social creatures, and we have been since before we were even human. I do not understand why or how America decided to become so insular. We decided that suburbia was the 'best' way to design our lives. It isn't. And we STILL haven't even come close to reckoning with this awful design. It's inefficient, awful for the planet, makes us fat, makes us lonely, makes us evermore hooked on media. We used to have church at least, but church turned rotten, so people are turning away even from that. This is a dark time to be American.

[@deborahcurtis1385]

Being unable to find people to simply 'hang out' with has been a real loss to me for a long time. It began when people got Filofaxes and I moved to a big city it seemed like every interaction had to be scheduled and it needed a purpose. People became work addicts or just had to work long hours with no choice. Then we got exhausted. This is a real issue. You need a social media profile and you need to market yourself which is a strange and artificial phenomenon.

[@nancybartley4610]

I kept waiting for them to define friendship, types of friendships, how to make friends, how to sustain friendships, how to find friends. They seemed to speak in a very cold manner, removed from the actual subject. How have our values changed? How has our ability to compromise, to realize connection takes work and thought about what we give to and ask of our relationships factor in? They seemed very removed from the real substance of this discussion.

[@Rotwold]

I think she's diagnosed a real issue but her explanation is awfully mechanised. Somehow I felt that she was describing the machinery behind "hanging out" in a liberal way. They touched on living in "clans" but spent no time discussing why we need socialisation without expectations. Instead zooming in on private property, public spaces and making a career. A very atomised view on society honestly.

[@deborahcurtis1385]

@@Rotwold You can't cover absolutely every perspective of what is a complex situation. There are so many ways of experiencing friendship, and the issue you have is how they describe it? I don't find them cold, but factual. There has to be some way of making universal commentary and that is inherently going to be analytical. IF you want whimsical observations about friendships, that's a different focus and program. She makes a key observation about fantasies of control, of saying yes or no to an interaction. And we have become more functional and transactional and this is truly regrettable. IMO. Saying this is not going to be warm and fuzzy because the situation isn't.

[@solarhydrowind]

I think there's something amiss here, because host gave lukewarm intro of guest, and guest sounds -maybe - annoyed. Just my opinions.

[@demeter7958]

I had to break up with my best friend and leave my friend group because they were abusive and toxic. I know I’m better off without them but now I’m lonely. 😢 I’m also learning better boundaries in therapy so I hopefully don’t attract people like this in the future so I’m actually more reluctant to strike up conversations with strangers, something I used to do. I’m more than halfway through this and I don’t think they will address this.

[@starsiegeRoks]

I think thats a huge issue that gets smoothed over too much because it sounds paranoid, and we dont like accysing humans of being naturally prone to paranoia. The point is in the old sayings "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.", "once bitten twice shy". Once we have to experience a bad social situation that results in a parting ways, we tend to not want to put ourselves in that situation again. The easiest way to not put yourself into that situation is to refuse to make any new connections/relationships/friendships. Instead of realizing that every interaction can go bad, and that the only real way forward is by dealing with the negative outcomes and continuing to try, we just shell up and think that if we never meet new people, those people will never be able to hurt us again.

[@totoroben]

I didn't choose to live this way. The built environment that caters to the automobile and destroys great American cities is the culprit. Urbanists know this all to well, and the rest can feel it, but not quite put their finger on the problem of why they feel isolated.

[@antigonemerlin]

And even so, we build communities anyways, in the inbetween, online and in little comments sections, in cafes and paid enterprises, while companies are telling us to buy buy buy. We build our communities even as companies try to take them away from us, every time. I suppose that is the ebb and flow of life.

[@bernadettesandoval3990]

I grew up in a quasi car dependant city and it was a joy because we had a community. Family owned businesses, faith communities, extended family celebrations, schools had sports, music, drama shows, local swimming pool, bike paths, a lake, creeks and tennis courts. What we didn't have and what eventually damaged society was no fault divorce and legal birth control not planes, trains or automobiles.

[@Illiteratechimp]

@@bernadettesandoval3990 So society was damaged when women could contr their bodies and decide to leave unhappy marriages? Its not worth engaging in your ideas, youre simply un-American and wrong Freedom for all - including women

[@grmpEqweer]

The country got richer, but that wealth is very concentrated now. A lot of us are struggling and lonely.

[@juancarlosv5136]

It's always a pleasure to listen your programs

[@kahlodiego5299]

There are no places to congregate. There is no public transportation. It's designed that way.

[@BoReads]

College was too expensive without going into an enormous amount of debt. I grew up in an isolated suburb. Tack autism onto that and you've got a recipe for misery. I know online socialization is not ideal, but it's a lot better than nothing I can tell you that. Thank God for the people I have met online through sharing our fiction or I would literally want to kill myself.

[@HunkMine]

I feel that. The only way I can connect with long time friends is discord since so many people move. I also telework everyday, so its nice to talk to someone. It's not a bad compromise.

[@dogsdomain8458]

That sucks that online is the only way you have to get friends. I suggest trying to meet up with the people you hang out with online. Maybe you guys can organize an event, like flying out to some city and hanging out there.

[@BoReads]

@@dogsdomain8458 Hahah, fly out. If it were that easy I'd never stop. Anyway, we don't even talk anymore and I've gotten comfortable with being alone. It's not so bad when you have hobbies and keep busy, and work out a lot of my own shit.

[@marissadower-morgan3313]

Through most of my life as a single person I had at least a handful of good long term friends. But after marriage my family and my husband got in the way of that freedom to focus on relationships not directly connected with child rearing or with common interests My first husband was not interested in -my own friends or I his business relate friendships .. My second life partner was also a work-a-holic ( so was I to survive ) ..We had no time to socialize , or extra money to go out to meet people .I have lost over 30 some years of a social life due to my love life . What a disaster . Now I'm divorced , single and mostly friendless. Everyone I knew has forgotten me , or moved on . I have no interest in love, maybe I can now be a friend at last .

[@bobsingh7949]

Wow! Thank you for your words.

[@nowamajormotionpictureeven3797]

It's a ramble with a few interesting thoughts, but it doesn't get into any serious data or analysis. One thing I found funny was that they kept going from "family is on the other coast and we all live alone" to "let's do co-living" without ever talking about neighbours and why we don't hang out with them.

[@cartman2027]

indeed. More than an hour about social isolation and they did not mention the significant trend away from church attendance. And, when they get to family, the guest says it can be like a hostage situation. Disappointing discussion.

[@deborahcurtis1385]

It's anecdotal this program, but it's also building on measurable social trends. You complaint it's not into serious data or analysis but someone else is having issues with the discussion being too cold and analytical (see above). Neighbours are random, and it's difficult to form compulsory friendships with random people. I have some neighbours who have very different attitudes, and one told me to my face his idea of a perfect neighbour is someone he didn't have to interact with. However he's become best buddies with some wealthy neighbours who have built a McMansion on the corner. They are very materialistic people and spending time with them is not really an option since they are very judgemental and narrow in their views. The program does discuss various housing options and the people attracted to them might be more similar to encourage this good neighbourliness.

[@susanlippy1009]

Lol. This makes me chuckle. I grew up in 70-80's We lived in a suburb on the edge of the city. My parents friends were the neighbors. They did so much together. Built the neighborhood pool, dinner club Bridge club ECT. Every one of their friends were Catholic, we were not. Simply because the Catholic elementary was in our hood, this many living close did so because the Catholic school. I went to the public school their children the Catholic schools. They remained friends for life, even when many of them moved away. My own children would go out of there way to attend Thursday lunches with the old farts every summer. Age and the grim reaper ended whwt had been a lifelong group of eclectic folks. Some were better off, some were snobs some where down to earth. From construction to pharmacy to secretarial. If you don't see your neighbor as your enemy you just might find a second family.

[@mohamedali2858]

If you want to know the value of a culture in the world, look at the people that this culture values strongly and unleashed.

[@robinstevenson6690]

Excellent show, Ezra!

[@idrissamorehouse322]

After many years i actually decided to retrain myself to be more social . I switched from a focus on self achievement (and building the proverbial "comfort bubble" promised by modern life) and switched to a focus on community = moving to an intentional community in MI - I do miss aspects of the convenience of a more private life but only now in a life of community do I actually feel like I'm living in true wealth with or without money - it takes a very different approach to how you manage and allocate time and goals - you eventually learn that it's the LETTING GO OF GOALS ON TIME that has so much value = you gain the sweetness of GOAL FREE TIME !! - ALL THAT IS TO SAY - PLEASE DO TURN YOUR SCREENS OFF AND GO FIND YOUR PEOPLE AND PRACTICE HANGING OUT WITH THEM :)

[@Dee-x9f]

Many of us who are isolated now pay for services that used to come from help we got from family, friends, and neighbors, and then reciprocated. We no longer live in a society that values interdependence, helping one another. The number of singles without children is rising with each generation, and while this is fine when you are younger, plenty of research is showing that aging without generational family support is costly, financially, socially, and mentally. We have an "elder orphan" care crisis that is only getting worse. The solution is easy: befriend people of various ages, build trust by being helpful and accountable to one another-the payoff of security is huge form everyone. Far easier said than done in this society!

[@frae6346]

I work for a 99+ year old woman, mother of 12 children, who lives in farm house. The back door is always open and everyone in the family expects access to the house at all times. The family is mostly loving and functional but that old fashioned way of life is also dangerous and there are very poor boundaries between family members. I would never romanticise that lifestyle.

[@daviddavid5880]

The "it takes so much time" complaint is always a bit of a wry chuckle. When I quiz the lonely as to what they're doing all day it's 4hrs of media and sleeping in til noon.

[@pedrova8058]

Adam Curtis documentary "The Century of the Self" is a good summary of how we got here

[@seanmichaelhurley]

People can't stand to be in environments they haven't curated to a T. It's like everyone has lost their top layers of skin and finds any breeze excruciating. Not a lot to look forward to in this regard. Whoops --- should have listened all the way through.

[@elbonian663]

In America, if you were born -- say after 1985 -- you were raised in an era in which you were actively discouraged from exploring the world on your own. It was a world of "stranger danger" in which drugs or kidnapping or sexual abuse or murder lurked around every corner. And it was also an age where that seemed OK, because you didn't need friends to have fun -- there were video games and computer games and the internet and phones -- all of which brought their own stranger dangers. 9 - 11 served to reinforce that world view for many -- the world is a dangerous place, and people are out to get us.

[@vickilynn9514]

I don't find most interactions very rewarding these days. Most ppl are self absorbed and show no real interest in other ppl. That makes me feel more alone than being by myself. I don't believe in socialising just for the sake of it

[@mps397]

Here's an idea. Spend less time glued to the internet and make yourself go out and try new things. Get involved in a social hobby. Join a book club or a community garden or volunteer at neighborhood functions to list a few, there's plenty of options out there. Im alone but not lonely because I keep myself stimulated with hobbies that fascinate me so I can both learn and interact with nature and sometimes other people if I choose to but this is only my opinion. I would like to note there's nothing wrong with striving to find and manage a personal balance between solitude and social interaction.

[@christinebuhr7520]

Listen again and count how many times you hear the term ‘hanging out ‘ Perhaps if we went back and examined how we came to that concept in the first place and our current expectations of what that is supposed to provide

[@Edo9River]

Homeless in California are mostly within 30 minutes of their high school

[@sidstovell2177]

Well said.

[@Shredderbox]

IMO Ezra should be required to go live in a dormitory for suggesting that others do the same. I'd love to see how that pans out, because it is super easy to be in a position of privilege and dictate what others should do.

[@8cupsCoffee]

"Why don't people live in communal spaces? I mean, I wouldn't but maybe it would make *them* happier..."

[@christopherpike9464]

46:30 Thank you Sheila Liming! I'm a long time gym goes, and these days I get so depressed by all the headphones. I feel like it is a tragedy. Listening to an intelligent person like yourself voice my concern has affirmed my own sanity. Thank you. By the way, on the topic of gyms, I wonder whether people get better workouts by wearing these things? I'm sure if you asked them they would say, yes. But I'm very educated on the research into exercise, and no one has every shown that these head phones result in fitness benefits. I'm very skeptical. I did ask one person what he was doing on his cell phone while he was working out, and he said that he was rearranging his playlist. Good use of time, Bro (sarcasm here).

[@8cupsCoffee]

As a woman I'm very happy to be left alone at the gym, sorry. I don't find that bumping into people randomly, yields a lot of good relationships. Most of my relationships are built on shared interests. The gym is only an interest for a percentage of people who go there.

[@dogsdomain8458]

Just talk to people anyway. Especially if they're cooling down or just slacking off. they have no excuse not to socialize. not like they're working hard anyway

[@dogsdomain8458]

@@8cupsCoffee not every opportunity to socialize is an opportunity for a permanent friendship nor should it be. that isn''t the only point of socializing

[@PikesCore24]

@@dogsdomain8458 I agree with dogsdomain. It is like 8cupsCoffee didn't even listen to the podcast. You don't have to be "interested" in the gym to have a conversation there. Just like you don't have to be interested in the grocery industry to have a conversation at the grocery store. 8cupsCoffee is looking for reasons why she should avoid conversations. I would recommend turning this cup upside down, and look for all the reasons to have a conversation.

[@1976Copper]

I don't connect with the idea that the voice w/o image is richer. I have never enjoyed or 'done' voice calls and find all of them with anyone a trial, but love video calls.

[@waltermilliken6220]

What ever happened to neighborhoods with triple decker houses?

[@stephenbonaduce7852]

I consider it rude to talk to strangers in public spaces. It would be particularly egregious to bother someone who is using headphones or earbuds. By the same token, if I am reading a book, I expect to be left alone. As far as loneliness is concerned, isn't it true that people can feel lonely even when they're surrounded by other people? Do we know the context in which people are reporting this surge in loneliness? I feel as if there is speculation here about what is contributing to loneliness without first describing the main ways in which it's arising.

[@8cupsCoffee]

To suggest that teepeeing houses at sleepovers is the kind of risk parents are worried about is REALLY naive, come on bro. You know what moms are worried about and its not "the boys getting into too much mischief."

[@mobilityproject3485]

In a sad way it is...

[@kydetoad]

Europeans in my experience do this better...socializing as an important routine and choice as part of their daily lives.

[@andym4695]

A dog or cat (IF you're going to take care and provide love and attention to said pet) can provide a great deal of comfort, plus a sense of purpose and responsibility.

[@susanmcdonald9088]

Im not sure "community" isn't closely related to "tribalism" with which we are still dealing millenia later, groups so intertwined through religion or race, who will kill over it, as in Israel. Lonliness is a part of life, nothing new and perhaps our definitions have changed, every generation post WWII and especially today, I'm bored, is the newest mantra as if every second should be exciting which tv & technology has certainly created part of that. Philosophers since the 1960s have projected what this post-modern world might change us, Dr. Rick Roderick, d. 2002 lecture series "The Self Under Siege", 1997 YT lecture "8 Fatal Strategies" on post-modernity, discusses this loss of self. Lonliness perhaps a byproduct of a much deeper problem philosophers have been aware for decades, and predicted. How to maintain Reality, our real challenge. Sometimes going back to the ancient greeks helps since they brought us here (science, democracy, theatre, olympics, free speech, the vote...). The Odyssey. 8th century B.C. when finally written down after centuries of oral story-telling. He loses his ship, his men, hanging onto a piece of wood in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea, lost, hungry ... alone. We just don't read the classics anymore; those ancients hold answers for us. Because human nature has not evolved one bit; we've all their same natures. Here's the movie. A great journey. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bITCnWRojLKSga8si=-T5M7_YRi4AqadCO Cheers!

[@matthewleitch1]

Having fewer than 5 friends is not isolation or loneliness. I would consider 4 friends too many. Quality is important.

[@fredbarnes196]

One of the few times you have the chance to talk to your neighbors is when you both happen to be in the driveway at the same time. I thought that was when you say hello. But what if they have undressed toddlers out playing? Turns out you are not supposed to say hello in those cases. Lesson learned.

[@subcitizen2012]

It can be difficult to adjust, but man, once you adjust, you are reluctantly free. Honestly, at 40, socializing just doesn't make sense, hardly at all. It takes time and energy to traverse the time and space and do the engaging and maintenance, and it's rarely worth it, trying to create or recreate what is otherwise just gone. It's not the most uplifting thing, but man, I wish there was something g out there that could've prepared me for this reality. Some people, usually idler people or people with families tend to be sentimental about those binds they have, which is understandable, those are more fresh and maintained neurons. But for the rest of us, maybe most of us, especially beyond a certain threshold of isolation or age, there's just no going back, for better or worse. I don't want to go back to trusting people or being in close physical or relational proximity to people, people suck. And it's those very relationships that are in close proximity that beer the most risk and burden to make it not worth it in the end. Personally, I'm defiant. Loneliness isn't a thing any more, im beyond that feeling and that sense of loss. Maybe it's not for everyone, but you can do it too and be unburdened from those chains of misplaced sentimentality. Worried about missing out on holiday time with the family? What if it's the inverse, and you are actually being afforded a once in a lifetime opportunity to not miss. Whatever it is, whatever they are, these are the circumstances so we have to adapt to them.

[@joemurray4205]

Some places I’ve lived College life Military life Live on a boat in a marina Live in a adult r v park

[@kimwilliamson7880]

People in this country cluster around incomes.The middle and upper classes are quite uncomfortable around lower income folks.Income bigotry?

[@rosemarieroth1984]

Sadly and in most societies it has been this way since civilizations were established.

[@deborahcurtis1385]

An exception is the creative world, music and the arts in general. they are less rigid. But there are levels of status, obviously

[@-aussie-]

Catastrophe disaster be afraid be worried be concerned...

[@stanleykubrick8786]

This was really naive. There's so much mental illness everywhere, why make the effort to socialize with abusive cockroaches?

[@rosemarieroth1984]

Is it really mental illness (which obviously has a significant hand in isolation) or is it that we as individuals tend to prioritize and value our own needs without contemplating/realizing that others have much the same needs and desires (food security, job security, emotional security which in some sense societies have stripped away in establishing what is perceived and perhaps valued as a "common good." Individualism allows a part of us thrive; socialization allows us to connect and to observe in a more overt way our own "place" in society.

[@dogsdomain8458]

you can't eliminate all risk from society. at some point you have to ask if the cure is worse than the disease. Most people aren't abusive or mentally ill, despite what your anecdotal experiences might be.

[@ZinSchartz-tl9kd]

0:10 Thank you helps for Rem.

[@masonm600]

Could we compare to other countries? Is this an American problem or is it all developed countries?

[@8cupsCoffee]

As far as hanging out at work, our workplace now requires us to be there 45 hours. And our commutes are longer. Men are also participating in housework and childcare, and before, they would go out for drinks with the guys after work leaving his wife on her own with the kids. When I go to work I'm not often with people I have much in common with, and the shallow conversations about workplace gossip and new tv shows really doesnt fulfill me like having dinner with my spouse every night does. If you are an intellectual and work with other intellectuals the same age AND socioeconomic status, you already have a TON in common culturally and you're all single that's a completely different situation than most people are in. Pick random neighbors and hang out with them and 30% of them think it should be illegal for gay people to get married and we should be a Christian nation. You can say that shouldn't matter, but see how superficial you have to make that conversation to maintain a connection.

[@Edo9River]

Come to Japan😅

[@johnstout5623]

This is not a new issue. Kids who hang out have always grown up and atomized. You are exercising nostalgia for lost youth. People who live in small rural communities often hang out with their friends when they are not working.

[@8088I]

Sadly, Lost from "Our" time. ...

[@Edo9River]

the questions are probing. but the answers are not satisfying. The observations are justly insightful, but there is a looseness, and unresolved examinations of the issues, which I see in the quesions, but the replies don't seem to go very far, not at all far enough. However this topic is like a shiny smoothe stone found on the road, but I will leave it there.

[@davidanthonystone5165]

Loneliness is not my illness but as I am a young 72 j would enjoy a traveling partner

[@rosalindmartin4469]

Why do i hafta look at the guy's mug🙄🤣

[@whatsdoin2392]

The price of community is submission to the other. That's a pretty hefty price !

[@ZinSchartz-tl9kd]

Hello World,Social media use for in my country &Family compare Right way For Learning ..in my country News Sale my country from other country move for not use..money &Not change I really complete.if mistake other people for Application.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

focus on divine central authority substantive human rights

[@joaodecarvalho7012]

One of the problems with current communities is that there is no unity within them. I think we will have to create a new type of community that can legislate over itself in many ways. They need to have some autonomy. They could even choose not to allow certain races or sexualities. For example, there could be communities where all the women are dominatrixes and all the men are slaves without any rights. Or communities only for gays, or any other way that people would like to live. It might seem bold, but the fact is that a major social disruption is coming, as AIs take over jobs. We will have to make big reforms to deal with this situation.

[@ixuaxuni9419]

First world problems. Boring 😴