Off The Rails: British Rail 4DD (Britains Only Double Decker Train)

[@MarkHenstridge]

As I am an Australian I have never heard about these fascinating DMU sets. It is a real shame a set has not been preserved in your National Railway museum, they are worth saving for sure.

[@peterdean8009]

According to the commentary (1:10) they were 3rd rail EMUs.

[@iankemp1131]

@@peterdean8009 And surely an Aussie should be familiar with emus :)

[@brsvang521]

It’s not DMU. He said that it is third rail EMU in the video.

[@FluidLoneknight]

Part of a set has been preserved but not in the nrm

[@gonzoengineering4894]

​@@peterdean8009 The thumbnail says DMU, so that's probably the source of the error. The brain has a hard time dislodging misinformation sometimes

[@EeeeenSH]

As a nipper I saw one of these crossing Hungerford Bridge outside Charing Cross, while transferring to Waterloo for a train to Portsmouth. It fascinated me and the image of a man's head at a window in the 'roof' of the train, has stayed with me ever since. Great video.

[@Bruce-h8w]

I travelled on it up to town a few times in the fifties; my father commuted on it. At around 02.15 it’s Herbert Morrison MP and cabinet bigwig, who lived in Eltham on the Bexleyheath line, hence his interest.

[@bowlingbuddie]

Travelled on this regularly on way to school just before they were withdrawn. Always had to go upstairs. :)

[@iankemp1131]

I bet you did. I'd have loved to experience it. Though maybe only the non smoking carriages :)

[@The12thDimension.]

Opening a train video with a picture of some ducks is a power move I wasn't expecting.

[@MysticalAurora9u4u3ksb]

Love the Tardis pfp

[@jogarthehutt]

This is what we need now, I would love to travel on one of these

[@EdMcF1]

I remember seeing this as a kid, but I never got to travel on one. Went on a double-decker in Denmark recently, very nice train.

[@archstanton5603]

Thank you your posting - some excellent footage there! Amongst other SR emus, BloodandCustard carries a detailed history of these units.

[@ewhurstgreen]

Agreed - BloodandCustard is very informative on many railway subjects.

[@Maltloaflegrande]

Travelled from London Bridge to Sidcup once on one of these in the late 60s. It seemed really novel, but I never realised how rare they were (I was only about 8 or 9) nor that I'd never repeat the experience.

[@peterchristian5599]

I'm probably not the first to mention this but the Bulleid double deck units (4DD) introduced in 1949 by BRITISH RAILWAYS , Southern Region , were E. M. Us and NOT DMUs !🤭 Peter.

[@ewhurstgreen]

Yes, they were to a Southern Railway design but constructed by British Rail during 1949.👍 No.4001 was outshopped from Lancing 10th September 1949 and no.4002 on 3rd October 1949. Search Blood and Custard and you'll find the definitive history of these units. ⚡

[@radiosnail]

My father travelled on these occasionally as they often ran between Dartford and Charing Cross. He said the only time he ever felt claustrophobic was travelling in the upper level on these.

[@johnmoore9862]

I can remember boarding one of these trains at Kidbrooke, heading for Waterloo east.

[@thamesmud]

I grew up in Barnhust in the 1960's and saw these running on many occasions. I Always thought there were a lot of them not just the two.

[@davidpowell7614]

Hey, I just had to add a comment as I also started life in Barnhurst, travelled on the double deckers and thought there were more than two of them! The line ran past our house on a massive embankment! Great to have those memories dug up. Thanks

[@ewhurstgreen]

Based at Slade Green, besides travelling to Selhurst and Lancing works, these units also attended Eastleigh either via Hove or Horsham to Fratton thence loco-hauled to Eastleigh via Fareham. One one occasion they returned from Fratton via Guildford. After 1951 the units nearly always ran as a coupled pair and from 1959 seldom operated at the weekend.

[@joshuaW5621]

At long last the DEMUs are getting some of the spotlight. It’s a pity that the 4DD hasn’t faired the best in preservation, but hopefully the surviving power car will get restored and put on display soon.

[@pj100565]

DEMUs? These are EMUs.

[@joshuaW5621]

@@pj100565 my mistake.

[@tonypickles2389]

Travelled on these a few times in 1970 I would think. Always a bit of a shock when one walked on to Charing Cross to find a double decker waiting.

[@davidpowell7614]

Used to ride on them as a young kid; always a rush to get the top seats, which were the best!

[@cadcamcreations]

It's interesting they thought it took too long for passengers to leave the units as today with so few doors you have to queue and wait to get out now. Those two survivors are surely a candidate for the NRM?

[@robertp.wainman4094]

.....and the infuriating wait for the doors to actually open!

[@laurieharper1526]

I commuted on these a few times. Boiling hot on the upper deck in summer - little ventilation up there. Someone I knew was a driver. he told me that you had to allow much longer braking distances at stops because of the extra weight. You could overshoot the platform if you forgot.

[@who9387]

I used to commute into London back in 60's and sometimes got on the double-deckers, never like the upstairs as (it says here) it was hot and stuffy. Always nice to see something different though.

[@shanewaterman4125]

I saw this once when i was about 6 or 7 (67-68) sitting on the middle track at Gravesend, the next main town station on the Charing Cross line from Dartford

[@Mounhas]

I traveled on this set just the once, from Cannon Street. Went upstairs just for the experience, it was a smoking car and a hot day and the smoke drifted upstairs & no openable windows. Wouldn’t have liked to use it regularly. Different for sure.

[@martineyles]

The seating arrangement has a lot in common with some proposed aeroplane seating systems. The idea there is to increase legroom, but I think that the main downfall is the likely increase in time for emergency evacuation.

[@russellgxy2905]

Amazingly, we had similar trains in America for a while. While the loading gauge is pretty favorable compared to Britain, the Long Island Rail Road had particularly tight clearances. So when more passengers needed moving, the MP70 Double Deck MU’s were introduced. Aside from being able to work in tandem with older MP54 and younger MP72 cars, the MP70’s problems were largely identical to the 4DD. The need to fit two levels of seats in a restricted space lead to an awkward seating layout, which not only made cleaning the interiors difficult, but also lead to increased dwell time in stations. Not exactly a good thing for a railroad that basically thrives on commuter service I’m not sure if the 4DD’s had problems with passengers seated in the lower seats, but the MP70s had issues with both. Lower level passengers would have to contend with leakages into their seats, while upper level passengers complained of receiving unwanted attention from lower level passengers sat in front. This mostly pertained to women, though I can’t imagine men didn’t find it awkward either They were retired roughly around the same time as the 4DD’s when newer, faster EMU’s negated the need for trains needing more capacity

[@Martindyna]

Something that amused me about the 4DDs was the problem of people seated downstairs being bothered by the smell of peoples feet seated upstairs. Probably wouldn't be such a problem nowadays now that people are in general cleaner.

[@Shuttlefield]

Yep - travelled on that unit(s) a few times in my youth - always a novelty!

[@ROCKINGMAN]

Nice little documentary on these DD class units. The unit numbers 4001/2 were were changed in the late 60's and given to the new PEP class. A colleague I work with was working on the the one preserved coach you speak of kept in Selling, Kent.

[@johnjephcote7636]

About this time British Railways bought a stainless stell Budd carriage from the USA, for trial. I never knew what happened to it, only the announcement of the purchase.

[@jonistan9268]

I think it's interesting that while the UK really has a thing for double decker buses (and trams and trolleybuses back in the day) they don't have double decker trains. It's a bit the other way around in mainland Europe.

[@mattlander9119]

Mainly as the rail newtwork still has a very small loading gauge compared to European or other countries so there's limited space to increase the size of trains.

[@mauricefox8508]

I travel on that Train bit tight up stairs from Barnehurst to London

[@andrewnorth6472]

The problem with Britain's railways is quite simply lack of electrification, using either diesels or third-rail electrification. On the continent and elsewhere the railway network is almost completely electric but Britain prefers the cheap solution which works out expensive in the end.

[@LostsTVandRadio]

For double deck travel these days there are always the Night Riviera bunk beds!!

[@Tom-Lahaye]

A similar approach was taken in some sleeper coaches on the continent, like the class P and T2. The 2 berth compartments were staggered where one T shaped upper compartment was above 2 regular shaped 2 berth compartments which sat at either side under the letter T.

[@Telecolor-in3cl]

French made, American inspiered.

[@Tom-Lahaye]

@@Telecolor-in3cl Especially the type P can't deny its American influence, like the French Mistral coaches they were built to a Budd patent.

[@Telecolor-in3cl]

@@Tom-Lahaye In Romania I think there where bought some T's. To be used, but they didn't passed the test and they where scrapped... I've seen pictures of T's? in Romania, but later find that they where U.S.A. inspirded. The "Mistrail" was a nice train. In the '60's it had even had a shop in the train. I wish shops in trains, but it's just a dream. Stainless steel cars where also made in Portugal.

[@Tom-Lahaye]

@@Telecolor-in3cl The type P was stainless steel, but the T2 were of ordinary steel and painted Blue with a TEN logo on the sides, only the interiors of the T2 were based on the P. It is possible that some Ps ended in Romania, but I'm not sure of T2s. The Ps were already very old, so I can understand why they did not pass the tests.

[@Telecolor-in3cl]

@@Tom-Lahaye There where the T2 tipe. I've seen some years ago a 1959 sleeping car. You can see sometimes some pre-1965 in use. Made in Germany.

[@SeverityOne]

The woman at 1:03 has a very big nose. Thumbs up for showing a Dutch VIRM4. Before the pandemic slashed passenger numbers, which still hasn't recovered, and before they changed the time-table, you could see two coupled VIRM6 (so, 12 cars in total) on either side of the platform, at the relatively small station of Weert. It was a pretty impressive sight. The one thing that has always puzzled me is why the British haven't made much effort in creating routes with a bigger loading gauge, before HS1. You don't need to do the entire network, but maybe the busiest routes? Because the phrase 'not enough room to swing a cat in' applies here.

[@a760541]

Hiya it would be like riding in a chicken coop! The downside of the limitations of the loading gauge on the UK network.

[@jonb3311]

I heard tall passengers on the lower deck would often have a head banging experience when they stood up.

[@kristinajendesen7111]

'Suffering little in terms of failures'. Ultra reliable. 31 years on the railway, 14 of them working with Slammers, and I never failed once. Pigs (442s), all the time.

[@Martindyna]

Great trains the 442s. Main problem that could be heard was the lack of traction on a wet rail. Old fashioned motor control and relatively few driven axles were presumably the cause.

[@kristinajendesen7111]

@@Martindyna Only really a problem in leaf fall or ice on the rails and generally on an incline. Ironic that we had an ammeter in the guard's office, MBLS centre of the 5 car train, when the driver could have done with it in front of them. They could see how much current was being drawn then but the train wasn't getting anywhere. Worst place that it occurred with me was going up Parkstone bank, we were down to walking pace. Some failed completely on the Portsmouth direct It was handy when the buffet steward had left their PA button on because through your PA/ Cab to cab handset in the driver's cab you could hear how badly the wheels were spinning. Four driven axles on the two motor bogies of the MBLS - ex reconditioned REP motors. Along with the buckeye couplers too we called the Pigs 400s with bolt on extras. 57 stock was good with the motor bogies just below you at each end under the cab because you could hear exactly what they were doing, whether the wheels were spinning and take action. Funny thing with them was that the motor bogie took off a fraction before the rest of the train above it when you took power, slight jolt.

[@Martindyna]

@@kristinajendesen7111 Thanks for your detailed response. MBLS = Motor Brake Lavatory Second ?? Strange that the code doesn't reflect that there's a buffet, not to mention a Snug !! Surely there's only 2 axles per bogie so 4 powered axles per 5 car Class 442 or have I missed something? Can you shed any light on what caused that `boiling egg' noise the suspension made in unpowered coaches at slow speed? (sounded like an egg hitting the saucepan)

[@iankemp1131]

@@kristinajendesen7111 Very useful to have an insider's view, thanks for the info. The 442s always looked very attractive and seemed very comfortable inside so as a passenger I was surprised and disappointed when they went, especially as the Portsmouth line then got 450s instead of 444s.

[@kristinajendesen7111]

@@Martindyna Doh, sorry yes, 4 driven axles. MBLS - Motor Brake Luggage Second. The first one was actually built without a buffet. There were two large parcels areas (we used to carry a lot of mail bags and newspapers), with double doors plus the smoking section 🤢 We were also able to open 3 sets of doors only from the MBLS door panels because Moreton was a 3 car platform until they extended it. Another thing you could do with Pigs was to put the door release button into local and open the door you were next to (manual in or opposite the guards office, powered at each end), at speed even if it was 100mph without the brakes being applied. That bogie rattle was really annoying. I don't know what component caused it but they never did do anything about it. They rode much better than Disastros though. I was able to run through a Pig at speed but the way the Disastros bounce about you'd take your kneecaps out.

[@thamesmud]

Not the only DD that flopped.

[@OlafProt]

Good job no accidents occurred with one of these, given how many passengers they carried.

[@TheSudrianTerrier653]

I know of complaints of passengers saying they could smell the feet of those on the upper deck-

[@AussiePom]

They may have been more of a success if they'd been built to a well wagon design. In Sydney Australia all the driver operated train are of the double deck configuration with the lower deck passengers having an eye level of a station platforms surface where people stand. This allows a full separated deck for the passengers on the upper deck. All the trains in Sydney are now air conditioned although the early double deck trains weren't with opening sliding windows. As far as I know Sydney is the only city in Australia with a full double deck suburban and interurban fleet. The way Bullied designed them in the cramped style destined them to be a failure from a passenger's viewpoint.

[@polyvg]

I was under the impression that platform height/position/curvature was also an issue. The lower deck couldn't be reduced in height which would have made more room available up to the max. loading gauge. Indeed, didn't this also affect the rolling stock that could, potentially, be used for services through the Channel Tunnel from stations other than those on HS1/St Pancras line.

[@jamesgilbart2672]

I wonder if Mr Bulleid would have been more successful if he had made the coaches of these electric units articulated (i.e. coaches share wheel sets/bogies with the next one - like the Eurostar sets) with the lower decks below the solebar (i.e. platform level)? This might have removed the need to interlace the upper compartments with those below. Entrances and stairs to both levels could have been between carriage ends on a mezzanine level above the bogies.

[@michaelbruchas6663]

Very cool! Too bad ventilation issues on the upper level…

[@ktipuss]

For a train regarded as a "failure" they lasted a long time: 22 years! Bulleid was WAY ahead of his time and came up with imaginative designs, this train and the "Leader" steam locomotive. Had the technology and types of material we have available today been available then, both would have been a great success. Allowing smoking in the confines of these double-deckers was an issue though; not permitted now of course.

[@Martindyna]

Yes I don't think the 4DD design allowed for a very low floor that a modern design does. Sitting in a Dutch double decker train in level 1 your head & shoulders are just over platform height IIRC. Perhaps they could be re-introduced for semi fast & fast services in the UK.

[@Ben-xe8ps]

No, smoking was not an issue in those days. It is only in the minds of the anti-smokers today that it has become an issue.

[@ktipuss]

@@Ben-xe8ps Mind you, smokers keep one of my friends in business; shes an Oncologist.

[@timbounds7190]

Intriguing things! Obviously really needed AirCon! Its a shame that a unit hasn't survived intact...you wonder what the people at NRM were thinking! OK, its hardly mainstream rail history, but worth keeping. There were a few buses that had the same seating arrangement as well, as they could pack more seats into the same vehicle length, but when longer vehicles were allowed, the extra weight and cost meant that it wasn't worthwhile.

[@peterdean8009]

These were designed at a time when no European trains were air conditioned.

[@owencarlstrand1945]

I saw these once when I was a boy and my folk memory suggests it was at Waterloo. I suspect it was more likely Victoria, as I never frequented Charing Cross it definitely wasn’t there. If anyone knows whether these ever ventured west of their normal habitation I would be very interested to find out.

[@Ben-xe8ps]

As far as I am aware use of these units was confined to the Charing Cross/Cannon Street to Dartford routes and therefore highly unlikely to have been Victoria where you saw this train or Waterloo Main Line. Most likely Waterloo East.

[@owencarlstrand1945]

@@Ben-xe8ps I agree with you but I never used Waterloo East (or Waterloo Junction as it was called then) so it occurred to me that they might have filled in occasionally on one of the two London Bridge to Victoria routes that ran in those days. I definitely saw it because I vividly remember the surprise.

[@samuelfellows6923]

Yes, the lack of ventilation in the upper half is what killed it ☹️😬😶‍🌫️😷, and as “smoking” indoors, in public was allowed in the 60/70s ~ seeing that man on the “top” deck smoking his cigarette = unknowingly creating an invisible tobacco smog that would take a long time to clear - imagine several smoking in those carriages and the top half filling with smoke 😯. What type of ventilation did they have? Venturi cowls that suck the air out with the train moving, did they “nearly” put extractor fans in the roof to try to improve ventilation, and trying to “economically” heat them in the winter ~ was the top half a sauna, and the lower half lukewarm/cold?

[@iankemp1131]

In those days ventilation on those suburban units was just by lowering the door windows. The side windows had no openings. A problem that might have been solved with some extra thought when it became apparent, maybe by an opening section at the bottom of the upper "pseudo doors", or an angled flat upper window with a ventilator rather than a smoothly curved continuous window.

[@tomclifton1607]

@@iankemp1131 The 4-DDs had pressure ventilation on the upper deck

[@iankemp1131]

@@tomclifton1607 Interesting. Sounds like one of Bulleid's ingenious ideas that didn't quite work in practice at the time. Like the oil bath on his Pacifics, which always leaked but I gather is ok with modern seals. So the 4-DDs would have done better if they could have been non-smoking with aircon!

[@EllieMaes-Grandad]

In those far-off days, smoking cigarettes was permitted on the London Underground, until an 'event' at Kings Cross I believe . . .

[@tomclifton1607]

@inankemp1131 Indeed. Also, if Bullied had lowered the floor to just above rail level, it might have been more successful. However, I can see problems doing that with 60-ft EMU coaches with the bogies and other equipment getting in the way, not to mention the step down from the platform.

[@Roy-gi5ul]

NOT a DMU, but an EMU, big difference!

[@boldford]

Wasn't the 4DD an EMU? Your leading banner calls it a DMU.

[@Ben-xe8ps]

It was an EMU.

[@johnjephcote7636]

I rather liked Bulleid's Tavern Car, complete with painted bricks and mortar on the waist panels and mock beams inside.

[@icdgyixifyinstereo]

Many of the replacement buses are double deckers.

[@matsv201]

To be fair. There really are no true double decker trains in continental Europe either. Most of them are 1½ floor train with 40-50% more capacity than a similar length single Decker. For instance the TGV duplex that is 200 meter long, that of 150 meter are actually passenger wagons have a typical seat arrangement of 510 seats. While ICE3 with the exact same length of 200m have a seat capacity of 460 passenger So only about 10% lower. The ICE3 being a single level train have plenty of space for strong engines below the floor, while TGV-duplex don´t. So it need the power unit at each end. Even worse, the ICE4 K1 have a capacity of 499 passengers at 202 meters, so just 2% below TGV-duplex, while the ICE4-K1 does have a lower power to weight, but on the other hand more traction. Of cause having a higher center of gravity and generally heavier train does increase the track maintenance cost, like the ICE-L where the compromised passenger per meter of train to decrease weight and center of gravity. Also having wheels that track better. So double decker is really just a solution where there is absolutely now way that the trains can be made longer or run more frequently.

[@kevanhubbard9673]

Had HS2 gone ahead we might have gotten double decker trains as I assume it's built to Berne Gauge however Sir Rishi Sunak has diverted the money to motorway building so we'll never properly know .

[@animaltvi9515]

Pity someone doesn't cancel him. Unless greedy twot.

[@Gfynbcyiokbg8710]

We could still get them on HS1

[@BigLMedia]

one is at the back of the scrapyard in selindge

[@FormallyknownasE100]

It's a bird, it's a plane, it's a double decker train!

[@avaughan585]

Why are there no double decker trains in Britain?

[@IainDavies-z2l]

It's an EMU.

[@Southernregiontrains2876]

I never thought I'd say this but I prefer the leader

[@EllieMaes-Grandad]

'Surviving into presentation' . . . ?

[@andysvehiclehistorychannel]

3:46 Austin K2

[@Endlessvr10]

I think I’ve seen the last 2 4dds in the uk

[@mikecawood]

It was an EMU not a DMU.

[@animaltvi9515]

Seems ironic that the region with the lowest loading gauge built these.

[@danielsellers8707]

Looks a compromise design...

[@justinhamilton497]

Is "vandalisation" even a word?

[@alexthewoo]

its an emu, not a dmu

[@sirrliv]

I love the exasperated tone at the end of the intro. I can just hear the hand slowly running down the narrator's face in that classic "Oh for the love of Christ on a bicycle, not this bloody guy again."

[@ducky_the_helper]

the 4DD wasn't a "true double decker" so the claim of first double decker electric train goes to the 1968 tulloch prototype power cars C3801, C3802, C3803 and C3804

[@JackStackhouse]

This video & series is specific to railways in Britain, and the 4DD was the only attempt made at a double decker train

[@paulwhitear545]

Pitty we don't have modern versions.of these trains. Save on overcrowding

[@bobbymcloughlin3452]

British Railways’ 4DD Is The English & Celtic Railways Suburban Scenic Carriages (Heritage E-Train) Compartment (Platform Level) Compartment (Scenic Level)

[@jasongoulden2938]

Doubledecker emu rather lol

[@laurenceskinnerton73]

A nice idea but impractical.

[@EllieMaes-Grandad]

Maybe not if used on short-haul services with few intermediate stops? That may compensate somewhat for slow loading/unloading of passengers.

[@nicolek4076]

"Vandalisation"!!! What's wrong with "vandalsm"?

[@conradharcourt8263]

An interesting little video only let down by the desperately unfunny cliched attempts at humour.

[@chewyfoks1840]

yep