Oh! Bach on the Fortepiano?! who did that?

[@Fayssss]

Love M.Heuberg so much !

[@danielwaitzman2118]

Miss Heuberger is a consummate artist, with a wonderful sense of musical rhetoric.

[@Renshen1957]

Beethoven, Mozart, and Haydn played J S Bach on the clavichord, fortepiano, and Harpsichord. J S Bach briefly played the Silbermann Fortepianos, an early example in the 1730s which he disapproved of the action and the treble was weak. J S Bach briefly played on the improved Silbermann fortepianos for Frederick the Great, and approved of the revised instrument. In 1749 he acted as an agent for fortepiano, just as he acted as an agent for Walter’s Musical Lexicon, but these were favors for friends and family and for a monetary considerations not any proof of J S Bach preference or writing for the instrument. The only references of Piano and Forte are in The Italian Concerto and French Overture, A major English Suite in the Gigue, and one Toccata. There is no indication for fortepiano in the Musical Offering in the score, in fact JSB only mentioned in his manuscripts the Harpsichord and organ (one manuscript in another’s hand infers lute harpsichord which is quoted by one of his contemporaries as his favorite keyboard instrument), specifically, and used the generic term for keyboard otherwise when clavier still retained this definition. Who played J S Bach on the Piano.? John Field debut in Paris with his teacher Clementi in 1802 in which Field played the WTC parts 1 & 2 from memory to great acclaim. The year before saw three separate publishers from three separate sources in print the 2nd Pt of the WTC. Clementi studied from the age of 12 to 21 studied in England under patronage the works of Bach and Scarlatti and performed on the harpsichord and Fortepiano. Young Fanny and Felix Mendelssohn played J S Bach’s WTC on the Fortepiano. A young Franz Liszt played J S Bach on the Fortepiano along with the works of Clementi and Beethoven as his teacher Czerny was taught under Beethoven. Chopin played Bach on the Fortepiano and on his score in pencil wrote Czerny’s metronome marks. Beethoven taught his nephew Karl on the clavichord paying a tuner as late as 1823. Haydn purchased English Pianos and the Harpsichord with Venetian swell and machine pedal. Mozart favorite instrument in his last year was a clavichord. Beethoven’s first job was as an organist and as a bit later as a harpsichordist. Clara Robert Schumann on their honeymoon studied the WTC Fugues of J S Bach and played the works of Bach on Fortepianos. One might note that as composer of J S Bach’s harpsichord Suites, composer/self-publisher/editor of ClavierUbung Pt 2 and Goldberg Variations or the Clavier works as the Inventions, Sinfonias (2 amd 3 part inventions, the (the range of the E major 2 and 3 part inventions requires a low BB outside the typical compass of clavichords), or the ClavierUbung Pt 1 Partitas (Basically large Harpsichord Suites requiring low GG upwards, the GG is also found in the Three minuets by Bach in W F Bach's notebooket, as excellent as these are neglected) or the two parts of the WTC, Czerny never indicated the sustain pedal. Edit, there is a piano indication in the Harpsichord Suite in A major (English Suite) in initiation of the French harpsichord music of the petite repeat. There's an indication in one of the Toccatas, but it's been so long sing I last looked at the score. J C Bach's copy large harpsichord Suites, that he brought to England with him is the source of Suite for the English (man), possibly a reference to his new country of employment. From Germany to Italy conversion to Catholicism, then back to Protestantism working for the Queen and King of England (both of which were Germans). The Queen owned a Rucker's Harpsichord which hand undergone grand ravalements (enlargement) which she traded in for on of the Shudi-Broadwood "expressive" (Machine Stop, Venetian Shutters), a deal for the English makers as Ruckers were still considerably more valuable.

[@PooyaRadbon]

True...thanks for joining the club.

[@Renshen1957]

@@PooyaRadbon Thank you for the club to join...

[@PooyaRadbon]

@@Renshen1957 the best would be if you join us by subscribing the channel here and also liking our page on facebook, we need more people who have a clue about this music and its instruments: facebook.com/Museumsakademie

[@Renshen1957]

@@PooyaRadbon I have subscribed to the Channel, but stand my statement that J S Bach never wrote for the instrument by name.

[@qwaqwa1960]

There's evidence JSB publicly performed the gamba sonatas on a Silbermann piano.

[@PooyaRadbon]

Yes, and this piano has nothing to do with what he played in his late years but similar to what Beethoven and Chopin had and used to play Bach on it! :)

[@Renshen1957]

I am very interest in the citation of the Gamba Sonata being played publically. Care to share the reference and source?

[@qwaqwa1960]

@@Renshen1957 See the notes to the Ghielmis' recording.

[@Renshen1957]

@@qwaqwa1960 Thank you for the lead…

[@Renshen1957]

@@qwaqwa1960 I wasn't able to locate the notes to the Ghielmis recording, but I believe I found several sources which inferred a Gottfried Silbermann FortePiano was present at Café Zimmermann (as it was called), or Zimmermannsches Kaffeehaus. Unfortunately, the only instrument which received notice in the local Leipzig press was the larger Harpichord, which replaced (or joined) the harpsichord that was at the Coffee House used for the free concerts on Saturdays, the only day that ladys were allowed on the premises. Zimmermann also had a string bass (or violoncello) on the premises for the convience of the muscians in attendance so said instruments wouldn't have to be lugged around for the concerts. The only relationship to Gottfried Zimmermann was the harpsichord) acquired in the 1720's, “clavcymbel of large size and range of expressivity" which was replaced by a finer (larger) one in 1733 was built Silbermann's student (and on time plaintiff in a lawsuit brought by G. Silbermann) was by Zacharias Hildebrandt. The rent free room to (the musicians) and the concerts were free, but ended with Silbermann's death. Clavicymbel is found as a synonymn for harpsichord in J. Walter's Music Lexicon, along with the French, and Italian names, which J S Bach had been an agent in Leipzig for the 1731 revised edition (the original, was published in Weimar, 1728 and borrows heavily from J. Mattheson's earlier writings). The term is also used for the Lute Harpsichord. Adlung’s Musica mechanica organoedi, Johann Friedrich Agricola described a Lautenwerk that belonged to Bach:“The editor of these notes remembers having seen and heard a “Lautenclavicymbel” in Leipzig in about 1740, designed by Mr. Johann Sebastian Bach and made by Mr. Zacharias Hildebrand, which was smaller in size than a normal harpsichord but in all other respects similar. It had two choirs of gut strings, and a so-called little octave of brass strings. It is true that in its normal setting (that is, when only one stop was drawn) it sounded more like a theorbo than a lute. But if one drew the lute-stop (such as is found on a harpsichord) together with the cornet stop [the 4′ brass stop undamped], one could almost deceive professional lutenists.” The inventory of Bach’s possessions at the time of his death reveals that he owned two such instruments, as well as three harpsichords, and a spinet. I do not have access to the original German document, I do know that an instrument by Hildebrandt was advertised in the 1770's of a large double manual harpsichord, with a 16 foot step, two 8 foot stops (one on each manual), and Nasale (Lautenzug) stop on the upper manual and a rare upper manual 4 foot register) and available on the lower manual in the bass register to reinforce the lower octave (similar to Hass Clavichords, which CPE Bach disliked), which is used by one seller of questionable motives CDs online as a reason to buy his revival harpsichord recordings as "It is unlikely that the lightweight, light-sounding “authentic” baroque harpsichord produced today would have been heard in Bach’s Germany." (J S Bach was involved in the purchase for the Coethen Court a Harpsichord by Mietke, who made counterfeit copies (until brought before the law, and promised to stop selling these) based on a 17th Century unsigned French Harpsichord with a curved tailpiece. J S Bach also had one of the Graebner, Organ builders and Harpsichord, builders family members as a student and as well had lute harpsichords made by Hildebrand which are smaller and lighter instruments without 16 ft stops). J S Bach's concerts were held in the 598 sq ft (smaller room of the two), which would barely accomodate the claimed 100 seats, of which Herr Zimmermann made his money of the coffee sales accordking to Bin ich Europäer?: Eine Tauglichkeitsprüfung, pp. 75, 2006. "Gottfried Zimmermann war ein Kaffeehausbesitzer, der seine Räumlichkeiten von 1720 bis zu seinem Tod 1741 gern den musikalischen Ensembles der Stadt zur Verfügung stellte. Die Zuhörer bezahlten keinen Eintritt, sie tranken dafür Kaffee." I do not have access to the liner notes of the brothers Ghilmi, I do know that Eva Badura-Skoda made some musicologically unsupported claims (shall I type "confirmation bias", “clavcymbel of large size and range of expressivity" could equally describe a double manual harpsichord) that the Harpsichord Concertos (the manuscript copy in J S Bach's autograph has six concerti, plus a few measures of a harpsichord oboe concerto never completed) were written for Fortepianos, however, the lack of proof of a Silbermann Fortepiano, and lack of proof that the harpsichord concertos were ever played, or the multi-harpsichord concertos were played at the establishment (by Bach's son(s)) are mere suppositions, based on what. Bach's debut piece for his first season in the fall of 1729, was a secular cantata, "Geschwinde, ihr wirbelnden Winde (Der Streit zwischen Phoebus und Pan), BWV 201, based on the ancient myth of a musical contest between Phoebus-Apollo and Pan; a comment to a controversy between Bach's contemporaries about "popular" and "learned" music. (The learned music won...). The Coffee Cantata, Schweigt stille, plaudert nicht (Be still, stop chattering), BWV 211, circa between 1732 and 1735 is an obvious choice for Zimmermann's Cafe. Although classified as a cantata, it is essentially a miniature comic opera performed in concert, a satire on the popularity of coffee (or against the belief that coffee was unhealthful addition). The concerts directed by Bach lasted about two hours and consisted of German and Italian opera, chamber music, secular cantatas, and works for orchestra. Zimmermann, being a shrewd business man might have paid real money for a newspaper notice if a "new fangled" Silbermann FortePiano was going to be played at his establishment. However, any such annoucements never came to light to my knowledge, either before WWII by Arnold Scherring in Germany, or any such mention found and subsequently added to the The Bach Reader revised editions. The performance for Frederick The Great was a Private affair, and the Musical Offering was printed by J S Bach (self promotion or bragging rights during a time when he was in reaction to music critic Johan Scheibe's attacks against J S Bach's devotion to Counterpoint (then called "Harmony")). As to the Musical Offering, J P Kirnberger did produced arrangements from the riddle canons, and other canons, in Die Kunst der Reine Satze II, however in the one piece that was arranged that mentioned a keyboard instrument by name, he used the Italian Cembalo (Harpsichord). However, with the ffinal decline of the Harpsichord in the first decade of the 19th century, the defacto home instrument would be the fortepiano. Ironically, the midcentury edition of Czerny of J S Bach's WTC, the Title for the European Continent was still the one Riefenstahl, et al had used before for Berlin, "Hambourg", and Wien: Le Clavecin Bien Tempere, the French form of Harpsichord.

[@aydenkael358]

I don't understand the dislikes? We know Bach played and wrote for fortepiano (1747) and sounds beautiful :)

[@PooyaRadbon]

Ow yes I understand them well ;) I can even name who they are. No matter what I do there are some few jealous people who come to dislike but I don't care and go on to make more videos. And probably some people don't like my face or voice, I tell them here: me neither! I also don't like seeing my own face and voice but I love my work.

[@Renshen1957]

Ayden Kael McDonald, (just found your comment). Dow we know that J S B Bach wrote for the Fortepiano?. We know that J S Bach played Gottfried Silbermann's earlier versions of the Fortepiano after Cristofori. In 1725, Giornale de’letterati d’Italia of Venice was published. complete with a diagram of the piano’s action, which was translated into German by the Dresden court poet Johann Ulrich König. König almost certainly was a personal acquaintance of the organ, harpsichord, and later fortepiano builder Gottfried Silbermann of Freiberg (1683-1753). Evidence from Johann Heinrich Zedler’s Universal-Lexicon indicates that Silbermann built his first piano in 1732, only a year after Cristofori’s death. According to an account by Johann Lorenz Albrecht and Johann Friedrich Agricola (the Royal Prussian Court Composer and a former student of J. S. Bach, who added a further layer of commentary by 1768 in The Musica Mechanica Organoedi, Jacob Adlung unplublished work was published after his death. In Agricola's account, J S Bach critized Silbermann's 1730's FortePiano. You can find the original German and English translation at digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1005&context=zeabook the latter starting on page 116. In the beginning Mr. Gottfried Silbermann built two of these instruments, one of which the late Kapellmeister Joh. Sebastian Bach saw and played. He praised, indeed admired its sound, but criticized its weak tone in the treble and its heavy action. This greatly affronted Mr. Silbermann, who could not stand for any of his work to be criticized. Accordingly he was angry with Mr. Bach for a long time; yet his conscience told him that Mr. Bach’s criticism was not unfair. He thus considered it best, and this must be said to his great credit, not to issue any more of these instruments, but rather to apply himself all the more diligently to improving the faults noted by Mr. J.S. Bach." (There's a video on KZbin that compares Cristofori's action and the modification of the later Silbermann Pianos) "He worked on this for a number of years. I doubt all the less that this is the true reason for this postponement, since I have heard Mr. Silbermann himself honestly admit it. Finally, after Mr. Silbermann had devised many improvements, especially with regard to the sensitivity of touch, he again sold one to the ducal court at Rudolstadt. That instrument is presumably the very one that Mr. Schröter mentions in [Marpurg’s] Kritische Briefe über die Tonkunst, no. 141. Shortly thereafter His Majesty the King of Prussia placed an order with Mr. Silbermann for one of these instruments, and when it received enthusiastic approbation, he ordered several more. Especially those who, like me, had seen one of the two earlier instruments saw and heard very readily just how assiduously Mr. Silbermann must have labored to improve all these instruments. Mr. Silbermann also had the commendable ambition to show one of these instruments, his more recent work [now-]deceased Kapellmeister J.S. Bach and to let him examine it, and it now gained his complete approval." Evidentally this occurred at sometime other than J S Bach's visit to Frederick The Great, or Agricola would have commented as to J S Bach's approval occuring. If one takes the time to look at the score of the Musical Offering (works on Separate Staves or Canons, not worked out, similar to the Canons on the Bass of the Goldberg Variations in J S Bach's corrected copy), it follows the earlier form of the Art o Fugue. Violin and Flute are mentioned in the score, as is basso continuo, but no reference to the Fortepiano. The practice of accompaniment at the harpsichord with its incisive attach has the advantage in leading an orchestra. The original Cristophori instruments, besides being expensive were critized by keyboardist as being too quiet to lead an ensemble, and if iconography is to be believed, zero evidence to the contrary. Even for nobles who had no more than one instrument to a part. An opera house depiction has a square virginal in the pit. Queen Barbara of Spain's list of keyboard instruments at her death list more than one Fortepiano converted into a harpsichord. Lastly, J S Bach may have been an agent for the sale of a piano, but his death tax records indicate, multiple harpsichords (of various types), and an addendum of practices claviers with a a pedal board, acknowledge by witnesses that the under age J C Bach received from his late father as a gift prior to the passing of the greatest musician and composer history has known. There's a long history of pre-classic era compositions being played on pianos, J. Brahms was active with Chrysander in publication of these works (F. Couperin for example, one could say it was an urtext edition). Brahms owned a clavichord of W, Mozart, Mozart's father was an agent of clavichords and warned his son against ruining his touch by too much fortepiano playing. Yet, Brahms would have played these works on a fortepiano.

[@PooyaRadbon]

@@cangjie12 you got it all wrong because you didn’t bother to visit our website and read the concept of our association.

[@PooyaRadbon]

Neither am I strange nor what I am doing together with our staff members is strange. Your name is fake, most others who comment are also hiding behind fake names and profiles and also suffer from jealousy seeing achievements of others. Our association is not governmental and it is an honour not anything strange.

[@Lucius_Chiaraviglio]

Seems that by the 1820s, pianos had evolved to sound more like modern pianos than like the original fortepianos