Ohlins Suspension - Pistons and valves

[@MK-df6li]

Honest and genuine with a bit of humor. Not many of these on youtube. Thank you. Subscribed

[@theohlinsguy4649]

Thanks!! It does need to be fun!

[@douglas_martins]

Masterclass!!! Yes, a lot of premium info. All the past engineering is interesting and very cool to see where all this development comes to. Thanks for share Doug! I like prety much the TTX tecnology especialy on rear shocks for motorcycle, is the main service that I have here (nothing comparing your daily basics, only the technician name).

[@marknasia5293]

Thank you so much for taking the time to make a real informative video. Shock theory if that is a thing, is something i always wanted to learn. As a kid NASCAR actually got me thinking about how important suspension setups are, then when i got my first KX500 Kawi and experienced modded suspension, just wow, it was like riding on a cloud. I now have 3 bikes with Ohlin’s suspension, front forks cartridge kits NIX22, and rear Ohlins shocks. I also have an Ohlin’s steering damper which works really well on the R3 and Ninja 400. Just in the last year i have been learning about adjusting the rebound dampening, compression dampening and setting sag with preload adjustments. After installing the Ohlin’s upgrades there was a day and night notice of improvement, but even after setting the sag and dialing in the compression and rebound dampening, it truly has transformed the NInja 400 and Yamaha R3 into serious street performers. I also noticed something i don’t see much promoted, when i took about the front forks and weighed the stock springs spacers etc i was removing and the Ohlin’s replacement pieces, I actually lightened up the front fork by a few pounds. On the R3 the rear Ohlin‘ s shock weighs less than the OEM shock too. Thank you again for sharing! I will definitely be looking your way for my next suspension upgrades.

[@theohlinsguy4649]

Hi Mark. Thanks for your very astute comment. I don't think that most riders/drivers realize just how much of a difference shocks/forks and springs make and how superior Ohlins suspension is to anything else on the market and buy into the myth that Ohlins is more expensive than other options. Suspension is the most important thing on any vehicle yet it is the last thing most people will spend money on. The thing that impressed me was your "riding on a cloud" comment. Exactly correct. There is an erroneous bit of conventional wisdom that says that you need to stiffin suspension to go to the track. Soft is best and there is no difference between a good setup on the street or on the track. Grip is grip. To get the perfect setup it takes work and you are working at it. No "guru" is going to be able to tell you exactly what to do. Another option you might experiment with is spring preload. I go into this a little bit in various of my videos including "Why I Don't Do Digressive Damping". Thanks again!

[@marknasia5293]

The Ohlins Guy The Ohlins Guy i watched your chart on one of the videos about digressive dampening and the only use i could understand for it is a manufacturer wanting to make a cheap mass produced shock initially feel better than a performance quality shock. Thanks for your comment and your time. I am still tinkering with preload. I use a Slack Setter tool (i will avoid the name as not to promote it) but after a couple of rides, i will make minor adjustment and try to track the adjustments individually, after the first sag set up. I have much more respect for suspension experts now, as even the geometry of the bikes rake trail where the forks are clamped etc it really can change everything up, i am trying not to change too much too fast, and am not in a hurry to search out tuning as i am not racing but riding hard on the street, here we only have speed limits in populated areas and the unpopulated areas are open to how well you can handle the bike safely. After doing my first rear spring change, i can understand why it is good to have a go to, expert guy, but locally i would have to get on a ferry and travel 3 days to get that kind of service, so... I have learned to love doing the work on my own bikes, i have one other friend that enjoy helping me out and once again, these videos you post are most welcomed and appreciated. Thanks for sharing your lifetime of experience please keep sharing the videos. Hope your holiday’s were great and the new year finds you swamped with sales.. :)

[@marknasia5293]

The Ohlins Guy I almost forgot to mention the importance of using Ohlin’s front fork oil at the desired or recommended weight, which will change how the front cartridge kits perform (reducing chances of cavitation in poorer less quality oils) well at least in the case of my NIX22 cart kits for the bikes, the weight and amount of oil is important to get correct and if not, it will effect how each leg preforms, in this case since compression dampening is in one fork leg and rebound dampening is in the other leg. Always tracking your changes, using proper tools (which Ohlins sells also like a pull up tool or the spring holder, fork leg vise etc) are important to ensuring accurate installation and not marring any fork tubes etc resulting in permanent “stick-tion) spelling? I just did a 60 mile ride today after making some adjustments to the preload after checking my sag since i had lightened the bike up a little, and just wow... on occasion, i get a friend to ride with me on his stock bike and we swap halfway and the results are instantaneously felt. I have bought a “suspension bible” i will skip the brand name also, but i really find your videos much easier to understand, especially since it is void of loud music and street stunts. I enjoy the facts and examples of how you are explaining the “how it works” then i grab the suspension bible and what you explained and it is helping me get through the book. I almost forgot to ask, do you sell Ohlin’s suspension tools like a spring changer? the kind that is like a mini tower, where the shock sits upside down and then is compressed with a manually jacked hydraulic cylinder? i have only seen these in videos where Ohlins had a tent at a bike/track day etc.

[@theohlinsguy4649]

@@marknasia5293 Hi Mark. Thanks again for the kind words. One of my pet peeves is when I get an Ohlins product with brand X oil in it!! Be careful what you read in books. Use your judgement to see if you think they are giving you correct information. There is a joke that Ohlins is a tool company selling dampers!! (haha). Since Ohlins designs from the ground up they rarely use parts from other products. They are designed by engineers for maximum performance and not by accountants for maximum profit so there always seems to be a new tool I need. I can get any tool for you but I am not sure about freight as it seems you live somewhere far away. I have a customer in Hawaii that has to crate and ship his whole bike to another Island to have it worked on!! They are so bad that next time he needs work he is going to ship the whole bike to California to get it worked on.

[@marknasia5293]

The Ohlins Guy I reside in South East Asia, but i have family in Atlanta that do me the huge favor of picking up or temporary stocking my parcels that come or are dropped off at times even head down to FedEx to pick up stuff for me. Then i fly in, enjoy the family visit and head out with suitcases of bike parts/tools. The questions i get at airport security as the screener is looking through the X-ray machine “what is this?” I normally reply lots of new motorcycle parts, and tools for installation. Actually TSA is very good, they always open and search the bags, so i try my best to have everything rewrapped for easy visual inspection, their repacking is less to be desired, but the other choice is to be hit by customs where i reside and stuff disappears, so that is never an option and i rarely get mail, as it disappears too unfortunately. I would actually love to have cars as a hobby but more motorcycle stuff fits into checked baggage than car stuff. One day, maybe i will be able to keep a project car at relatives house, like a hobby working vacation. I really am super impressed with Ohlin’s manufacturing, growing up in a light metal fabrication/ machine shop my grandpa owned, i am really amazed at the quality. I have seen video of people buying knockoff stuff and why anyone would trust their safety to save 100$ is beyond me. The simple fact that Ohlins has been around, they are the experts, and the shocks are rebuildable alone won me over for the initial purchase. After seeing the change in handling, i am all in for Ohlins. Thanks again for your videos i am learning a lot, and it isn’t that often that someone shares as much as you are. It is enlightening and really shows the depth of knowledge Ohlins and their authorized service people (including yourself) have. I have the Ohlins original oil shipped to me via the only official Ohlins authorized dealer and figure it is the prudent thing to do to use Ohlin’s oil with the shocks. Thank you for your time responding to my comments and i look forward to your next videos, i am catching up now with what you have posted already, i have to watch a few, sometimes rewind and watch again, a lot of new material for me. Thank you for that, have a great day!

[@agubser07]

Cool video. I look forward to the one on shims. I've always wondered if it would be possible with a single tube motorcycle shock to have a piston/shim combination ("valving" I suppose) that could make high speed compression movements less harsh but still retain the necessary low speed compression behavior and acceleration support of the "stiffer" setup I currently have.

[@theohlinsguy4649]

Great. I will try to cover that although I am a believer in linear damping. I find that usually the harshness is from too much low speed damping mostly found in digressive valving. I will try to go over my thoughts on that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a single tube shock. There are just things like pressure balancing and cavitation to contend with. Any shock is only as good as the valving. Some popular shocks have a very sparse selection of shims so it makes it difficult to get the results you want. Thanks for the comment and let me know any time you find something you don't understand or want to know. I don't know if you have Ohlins but the info should be good for any modern shock.

[@agubser07]

@@theohlinsguy4649 Thanks for the reply. My shock is indeed an Ohlins with a piggyback reservoir, preload, rebound, and low speed compression adjusters. I don't know if it has a digressive piston as you described in the video, but I doubt it. I've wondered if it would be possible to reduce transfer of energy to my lower back over high speed, sharp edged bumps but still retain the current behavior when loading the shock during acceleration and low speed bumps. I don't know if a revalve could achieve this and it's quite difficult finding answers to these things. FWIW, the spring rate and SAG numbers seem in the ballpark for me, but next time I get it serviced I will ask for an "analog data aquisition" band around the shaft to monitor travel.

[@theohlinsguy4649]

​@@agubser07 I am assuming no one has revalved your shock. Sometimes the OEM Ohlins are not valved very well (in my opinion) as I think maybe the manufacturer gets involved in the damping.The aftermarket Ohlins seem to be valved a bit better (again in my opinion.) It is hard to say what is going on without a dyno sheet.This would easily tell pretty much what is inside or if there is a functional problem with the shock. Also it depends on how often you are getting the bad bumps. You never want to valve for an event that doesn't happen very often (perfect is the enemy of good). As you rightly surmised, it might effect the current behavior and maybe not for the better. For fun you could try putting the canister knob at -10 and turn the rebound out pretty much all the way (around -20) and see if there is a difference. Be sure to note your current settings as you might want to go back to them.

[@agubser07]

@@theohlinsguy4649 It is the OEM valving from what I know (I'm the third owner). I'll try putting rebound at -20 and low speed compression at -10 next time I ride and see what happens (since I'm at -14 on compression and -8 on rebound now I imagine it would make the ride harsher and try to bounce me out of the seat with no rebound?) I don't know if my local Ohlins guy who I've had service this shock in the past has a dyno.

[@brennerfab770]

@@agubser07 It is conventional wisdom to think the less rebound gives a harsher ride. Not true. It depends on what your damping looks like. Lots of rebound without much compression preloads the spring as you ride. It is easy to try some different settings and if they don't work you can just go back to your old settings. I dyno every shock that comes out of my shop and I have a record of it in my dyno. Is your service guy an authorized Ohlins service guy? You can't really do a proper service without a dyno and vacuum filler and Ohlins oil. Of course if they don't have these things they will say that you don't need them. Ohlinsusa.com has a list of authorized service dealers.

[@jpmorgen5726]

Great! I learn at least one thing in each video, usually more than one, and generate questions that I answer for myself, or get the answer in another of your videos, thanks.

[@theohlinsguy4649]

Thanks JP!!

[@MrTL3wis]

Bleed shims really help with the shim sticking. That does look like the the 3-port high frequency TT-44 piston. I used to have to fight the sticking sealing shim on the 2-port pistons, which were particularly bad for it.

[@theohlinsguy4649]

Roughing up the piston face gets rid of stickage

[@MrTL3wis]

I think it does it in a different way? You can't really see the difference on a crank dyno, but it's there.

[@redhorse554det1]

yes , absolute master class. very interesting. thank you.

[@HPRaceDevelopment]

neat to see high frequency idea. Smart!

[@theohlinsguy4649]

Yes, pretty interesting!!

[@race5050R1]

Where can I buy ohlins seals and internal parts for stx 46 type shock? I think it’s a YA305. Thx

[@theohlinsguy4649]

Ohlins USA in North Carolina

[@adamkelsall3942]

Really interesting video thank you. Ohlins do a "DFV" for some road cars.....Would this basically be a spring pressing against the shims that allows the force of the oil to push the shims and spring open if the compression force is high enough i.e kerbs on track and rough roads? kind of like a blow off valve

[@theohlinsguy4649]

HI Adam. I think you are exactly correct. As far as I can tell it is a blow off valve with an extra shim stack and kind of a piston with a second bleed hole (second bleed circuit). Thanks for watching!

[@adamkelsall3942]

@@theohlinsguy4649 I really enjoy hearing about damping. It’s an area of cars that can really make all the difference to driving enjoyment. I had Ohlins on my lotus 2-Eleven and they were witchcraft. Beautifully compliant on the road and 2-way adjustable to work brilliantly on track. I now own a BMW M2 and the stock suspension is way too stiff on the road here in the UK. It would benefit from some sophisticated dampers like the Ohlins DFV that can be both compliant on our awful surfaced roads whilst controlling the body movement of the car…..and can cope with some track work at the turn of the dial.

[@swordfish1120]

In a rear shock does a revalve consist of shim stack change and piston replacement or just the shim stack size change?

[@theohlinsguy4649]

It depends on what piston the shock has in it and what you want the damping to look like.

[@mikebrown41182]

Have you been to the factory in Sweden?

[@theohlinsguy4649]

No, but I had factory guys come use my shop when they were doing work in the area.

[@mikebrown41182]

@@theohlinsguy4649 That is really cool.

[@smith8124]

Few people understand the dangers of high pressure hydraulics. It’s typically inexperienced heavy machine mechanics - think big Caterpillar or farm equipment. Theres a small tear in a line and their hand or arm pass by a super pressurized stream and it “cuts” them. That “cut” actually just injected them with filthy hydraulic fluid. These “cuts” are small, don’t bleed much and are not super painful, but Immediate emergency medical intervention is required or they often die.

[@theohlinsguy4649]

lucky for me that I don't see those kind of pressures! I would have been gone long ago.

[@jeffcohoon5488]

Very informative videos. I prefer "opinions" backed by decades of experience. Do you by any chance have any stock of the original triangular shims with the bleeds? Hard to find.

[@theohlinsguy4649]

Hi Jeff. I have tons of them

[@jeffcohoon5488]

@@theohlinsguy4649 Nice. I will email you what I need. Thanks.

[@paultavres9830]

Been really enjoying your videos My question to you is why is valving better than a adjustable valve seems like you loose you ability to tune to changing environment

[@theohlinsguy4649]

Hi Paul. I don't believe that once you have a good setup you ever have to change it. But that being said I think there are 2 sides to this issue. If you have a single tube shock, for instance a S46 Ohlins or other so called professional brands of single tube shocks, you have a problem with pressure balancing. If you start changing the damping with the knobs you can easily make the shock unhappy. Also, as you close down the bleeds, which is mostly what adjusters are, this increases hysteresis and also makes the shock a bit unhappy. These things are good for initial testing but if you find that you are getting an improvement you should always go back and revalve so you can get the damping you want with open bleeds. Once a single tube shock is valved properly and the adjusters are set these shocks are really good. Just harder to get there. Ohlins TTX seems to be another matter. Because the oil is flowing through the piston (valve) and shims rather than the piston and shims being pushed through the oil, you don't have to worry about pressure balancing because all of the damping is happening at the valve. No cavitation problems either. When I first started working with TTX I tried to use the same techniques I used on the single tube shocks but found out they don't really work the same. You can use the adjuster on the TTX in a pretty broad range without seeing much change in the happiness of the shock. Sometimes I find that they seem to look better with the bleed closed down a bit.

[@andrewstambaugh8030]

In his reply to you, he says, "I don't believe that once you have a good setup you ever have to change it." But in the video he says that where ever you show up you should use adjusters for "testing" then go back and re-valve...kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHrCYYmojb-Xl9U Yeah those are completely contradictory statements. Once and done vs you gotta re-valve. And no, I'm not going to re-valve a bike every time I pull up to a new area or track. Nope! Those external adjusters are designed to be adjusters. (who'd have thought!) They allow you to _adjust to conditions_ and fine tune without a complete rebuild. At the beginning of the day, a mx course might be hardpack, and an hour in is deep loose churned up dirt that has a dampening effect of it's own. *you could just live with now non-ideal suspension for the changing condition... or you could just turn a click or 2 on a few adjusters and be back to excellent pairing* If you have an adventure bike and decide to 2-up, you probably will add preload to keep from squatting. Is your damping still matched right now that you've changed spring-force and weight? Adjusters. They are there for a reason, and it's no coincidence that cheap suspension tends to lack them and high end suspension tends to have a lot more of them.

[@Pereke69]

Holy damn, the amount of info is incredible, whaat about position sensitivity? amazing keep uploading

[@MrTL3wis]

The Teflon bands have less friction than the steel ones. When Ohlins introduced the Teflon bands for the main and floating pistons, it was called "the low-drag kit." Penske uses a 1-piece piston deal with springs behind it that seem to work well, but they're a bitch to get on the piston.

[@theohlinsguy4649]

The steel bans are coated. Maybe DU type bushings. I would think the steel ones on the main piston would be better at keeping the shaft aligned and preventing stiction. The TTX40 with a through shaft uses a teflon type piston ring because with the through shaft the band only has the job to seal and doesn't have to also be a bushing.

[@MrTL3wis]

@@theohlinsguy4649 Ya, I know. We used the steel bands in the TT44 until about 2003, but then they introduced the Teflon ones. I think there were some different o- rings as well, maybe?

[@theohlinsguy4649]

One piece bands are bad. Pressure builds up behind the band and causes stiction. One of those things that sounds right but in fact are bad.

[@MrTL3wis]

@@theohlinsguy4649 I'm just reporting the news, not passing judgement.

[@turbotrk100]

I think I understand who you refer to when you talk about internet Guru with no real racing experience and I do agree with you. 😂😂😂

[@theohlinsguy4649]

Hi Antonio. Yes. I am sure they are trying to help but sometimes they don't know what they don't know. Always listen and make your own determination. I certainly don't know everything. Thanks for watching!!

[@andrewstambaugh8030]

On alu vs steel: Alu is lighter (good), much cheaper to machine (also good), and transfers heat more (a _miniscule_ improvement to evenly heating oil/dissipating heat). With alu tubes, the alu wear is less abrasive to alu vs steel grit. Problems: Definite fatigue limit, faster wear, and the worst - very vulnerable to cavitation damage. Steel: heavier, more expensive to machine, slower heat transfer, steel grit and can rust. Advantages: if designed right, no fatigue limit/infinite lifespan, wear resistant, higher cavitation resistance, and stronger so ports/holes can be bigger for the same size profile. Probably a win for steel, but the questions is are alu actually experiencing any failures? If not, then who cares what it's made of. Go for lighter or heavier with more port size options.

[@theohlinsguy4649]

Hi Andrew. Thanks for the great post. Ohlins is the best in the world and they always have reasons for doing what they do. Certainly they could make aluminum pistons if they wanted to. Here is my take on it: Ohlins is the best at consistency through a heat range. Probably steel pistons combined with the other parts involved fit their heat dynamics calculations or experience. Maybe aluminum expands more and causes stiction when hot or need more clearance when cold? Probably other things I don't know about. I use to get TT44s from Indy cars and I got a set where the team machined up some aluminum replica pistons. Evidently some "race engineer" thought he knew better. Also most of the steel pistons are not machined but sintered which would probably be more economical. Basic pistons are very inexpensive from Ohlins.

[@andrewstambaugh8030]

@@theohlinsguy4649 That makes sense, as alu expands a lot due to heat.

[@MrTL3wis]

Ohlins does a lot of their pistons as sintered steel. It's a great way to make _a ton_ of pistons inexpensively, but they can do some huge volumes. Most everyone else uses aluminum pistons. I've never found a functional difference between the two.

[@the690shed]

06:31 "They are always looking for better ways to do things unlike some of the other manufacturers who've had the same pistons for 20 years, 15 years, or they reintroduced a piston that didn't work before..." Do you hear that WP? Hahaha Thanks for the awesome content btw.

[@theohlinsguy4649]

Thanks! Marketing vs performance!

[@jeffcohoon5488]

Oh, the bands were teflon on the original pistons.

[@theohlinsguy4649]

Yes, I think so.

[@pachobg2]

In all your videos I get a religious vibe, "Ohlins is the best." every one else is false. Don't like that, did not come here to see that. Sorry that's just my opinion.

[@theohlinsguy4649]

A KZbin channel named "The Ohlins Guy" might have been a clue

[@pachobg2]

@@theohlinsguy4649 right you are sir.