Old School Pin Router vs CNC... Pt. 1 Neck Pocket

[@michaeladamcaira9174]

If a Luthier knows what he is doing his work will be accurate regardless his method,,,you the man Matt

[@TexasToastGuitars]

Thank you my friend

[@garym5701]

Generally speaking, CNC and pin routing are about stock removal. Stock removal is not art. The art is In finessing the fit and finish. Great video, keep it up!

[@TexasToastGuitars]

Good point, now that I think about it most wood work is stock removal, that is the easy part Finish work, I guess we could call that application rather than removal, is the tricky bit. Thanks for watching Gary

[@garym5701]

@@TexasToastGuitars Yeah, I don't want to paint this with too broad of a brush, but at the end of the day, these are just tools. The real skill is in the hands of the operator, programmer, etc. I just don't understand the argument from some people that if you use these tools, an instrument can't be considered to be hand made. I like to use what I consider to be the appropriate tool for the job. Sometimes that's a hand plane, and sometimes it's a power tool. Anyway, I love your approach, Matt!

[@kenlee5015]

@@garym5701 I think you're right. Doesn't matter how you get there, when you finish with your hands, you're building, you are the craftsman.

[@HighlineGuitars]

Which is better, a handmade pin router or a pin router made on a CNC lathe? 😉

[@TexasToastGuitars]

Beats me I was wondering which CNC guy would be the first to give me grief

[@MangledGuitars]

First! My work tools are 4 routers a bandsaw, scroll saw table saw, miter saw, radial arm saw and numerous hand tools. I still need more equipment but I'd love a pin router!

[@TexasToastGuitars]

I'd love you to have one too, they are too much fun

[@spannerman4886]

Agreed Matt! I know it's using a machine but at least you get to guide and handle the wood , make adjustments and refine the fit, you don't get to do that with a CNC.So that's still craftsmanship and handmade with a Turbo fitted 😀. I don't have space or funds for a pin router even if they exist in the UK?? but I use templates and bearing guided routers so I guess that's near enough the same thing. Love your work and the way you share your knowledge, makes the world a better place.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

Good to hear from you Spannerman, hope you are well... It's a really funny thing that people like to go round and round about what is or isn't hand made I started saying that I thought my pin router was sexy and people still get bent out of shape with me. hahahaha

[@billybiggs6766]

I fell in love with your pin router the first time I saw you use it in a video. One of these days I am going to find me a second hand pin router for an affordable price for my shop.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

I like your style Billy

[@robertbarker2458]

Ar Matt you have done it again great video,making sense of all the bullshit the art and beauty of crafting a guitar by hand is one of the most rewarding and sometimes a pain in the butt feeling you can get and it is very addictive as soon as you finish one your ready for the next one Cheers my friend

[@TexasToastGuitars]

Thanks so much for watching Robert, I like your style

[@johnmeehan4518]

Just got my pin router so I’m watching those pin router videos one more time. Hell yeah!

[@TexasToastGuitars]

Nice going man, hope you enjoy it brotherman

[@rumbachumba330]

What I like most about your pin router is that you can see exactly what you're cutting with the greatest of ease.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

I like that feature too.

[@peterschmidt9942]

As you said Matt, there's not much difference in accuracy between a router and CNC. The big advantage of CNC (for factories) is they can have a few going at once, 24/7 and generally don't have to be manned. A worker can be off doing other tasks while the CNC is running...like having a smoke, catching up on weekend exploits etc ;)

[@TexasToastGuitars]

That's true Peter, people tell me all the time about the other things they can do while the CNC is running... usually it's goofing around hahaha Okay, I don't know that for sure but that is what I would be doing

[@michaeladamcaira9174]

I agree 100%,I bought a CNC last year and all I use it for is inlay work , otherwise I don't really use it

[@TexasToastGuitars]

That is what I would do with a CNC too

[@donvanco3078]

And inlay is one of those areas that CNC can really make you a next level builder. There are folks out there doing AMAZING things with inlay thanks to CNC - and it's not that most of it can't be done by hand, but in most cases would take orders-of-magnitude longer, and require FAR MORE actual skill as someone capable of doing inlay "by hand".

[@rok1475]

michaeladam caira did it pay for itself in the time it saved you?

[@JeffBarberDigideus]

I remember seeing a video of Wayne Charvel making So Cals in his workshop with quite conventional benchtop tools and a Pin Router about 10 years ago, so they are still being used, particularly be luthiers from the 70s and 80s. I'm not sure why the "masking tape and superglue" thing has become such an issue in the luthier community. Ben from Crimson Guitars in the UK seems to have made it popular over the last few years, and apparently he got the idea from one of his students after thinking "nah, that will never work" and then being quite surprised that it does actually work. I think you made a comment that you had to be careful not to get superglue on your work piece, and that's a fair comment. Basically, use what works for you. There is no right or wrong way to do things.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

I know lots of guys who use pin routers and it's really cool to learn about or see them in action in shops. There was an Ibenez custom shop video about the 30th anniversary of the JEM and the only CNC was used for inlay

[@100amps]

Your pin router is a beast! I couldn’t handle the upside down backwards stuff though. I’d get it wrong more than right. It reminds me of driving in England. Every time I went around a corner I’d crap myself because the oncoming traffic wasn’t where my brain expected it. I suppose you get used to it eventually.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

Oh I still goof up the inversion of the templates every now and again hahaha

[@Dreamdancer11]

People arguing over powertools....i have a handsaw,some forstner bits,chisels and a hand drill....i have made all my guitars with those and i enjoy them immensely but it took me forever...if you offered me though at that time a shop full of powertools...i would use them all without a second thought.People romanticise the whole..handmade thing..well hand sawing and rasping your way around a guitar body...its not fun and not heroic either. My point? there is not a ..versus thing for me.....only too few powertools is the problem so..if you hate some of your powertools iam offering you a solution..send them to me.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

I'll see what I can do Dreamdancer hahaha I think you summed things up perfectly by saying it's fun but not heroic

[@jimfromoh8944]

Chris from Highline has some great vids on the tradeoffs of going to CNC. Not simple and not cheap. Software can get really expensive and the learning curve is such that many will never get there. Machines are pretty slow unless you spend monster money, and there are limits to the details you can get with 3D curves. If you are talented with CAD and understand the limits of the machines you are designing for, you can whip out some pretty cool prototype stuff. But you can also do that with a router, rasps and files. The Jet pin router is the bomb. In my very humble opinion, that is the way to go for what you guys do.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

Chris does things the way that works for him... he likes to give me grief sometimes. Lets just say that there are CNC machines and then there are CNC machines. If you have to attach a router to the set up it will not be as fast as a purpose built industrial tool. The JET is a monster, I wish I had space for 2 hahaha Thanks for watching Jim

[@kenlee5015]

Dude You've inspired me. The pin router looks to be a winner for a lot more than guitar work. Been shopping for a used one for a while. I might just plop the 3K down on the Grizzly. CNC is cool, too.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

The pin router is a monster, be on the lookout for a used one. They are out there and want to be put back to work

[@edadpops1709]

Know what you do,do what you know. My pops said that long ago

[@TexasToastGuitars]

Smart guy, that's what I think

[@electroKrunch]

You build the guitar, you rule the fasteners. I still wanna know the tapes you use...

[@TexasToastGuitars]

It's a 3M tape, I can't remember the number. I'll look it up for you

[@chadzillaification]

Beloved pin router videos > any cnc video

[@TexasToastGuitars]

Thanks Chad, I like your style It's a really funny thing that people like to go round and round about what is or isn't hand made I started saying that I thought my pin router was sexy and people still get bent out of shape with me. hahahaha

[@jasongrindley3257]

Good vid Matt! Let me know when you have time to pick up on our previous conversation. Best. J

[@TexasToastGuitars]

Thanks Jason, BTW my phone won't let me call yours? I'll be in the shop in a couple hours

[@jasongrindley3257]

Texas Toast Guitars I’m on vacation for a couple days... send me your cell again, sorry I don’t have it with me...

[@jasongrindley3257]

Hey Matt. You around tonight?

[@Bob_at_OZDiggzguitars]

aaand Chris's new nickname is Droop Dawg! I sure hope he paints that single cut with NITRO (Sunday,Sunday, Sunday). Yeah, y'all are way too new-tech with that thar stuff Leo had...IN THE early 50's! I want to complain about those copy carvers you have hidden somewhere. That new fangled Kalamazoo mumbo jumbo. I remember when we had to carve guitars with our fingernails out of old railroad tracks left around empty lots...with our eyes shut...uphill... and we liked it!

[@TexasToastGuitars]

Talk about a topic that will polarize guitar makers and buyers. I started saying that my pin router is sexy and that pissed people off too... what a way to live hahaha

[@thehappysinners8115]

I'd be interested in seeing how/where you acquire the templates you use for the pin router. Bought from Stew Mac? Do you run other guitars with dimensions you like through the pin router (as templates themselves) to cut new templates? Do you measure, draw and precision cut them from schematic ideas? Thanks for all the great content Matt!

[@gordonpelto1069]

The template is made on a CNC machine, ha ha ha....

[@TexasToastGuitars]

Well, as Gordon said, sometimes the templates are cut on a CNC or laser. However, you can and certainly should make your own too. We have used the pin router to shape templates using existing guitar bodies. You know... I have to do something like that with a Jazz Bass, new video idea?

[@thehappysinners8115]

@@TexasToastGuitars I'd love to see a video of that. Sounds great!

[@Agarwal6]

All tools are great! :)

[@TexasToastGuitars]

I have never met a shop fixture I didn't like. There were some that I didn't use but I still liked them

[@Agarwal6]

Exactly. The fun is in learning to do something, and doing it good, really good. Your philosophy of “you do things the way you want, I do mine the way I want” is spot on. There’s no superior method in the absolute. We just love some methods or techniques more than others because of personal experiences, but in the end, all processes are great if you enjoy them ;) Cheers!

[@BAMozzy69]

I totally agree with you that a Pin-router, in the right hands, is just as good as a CNC. What I do disagree with though is the notion that CNC is somehow cheating, that it somehow takes away from the 'final' instrument, that it stops a guitar from being 'hand-made' despite the fact that everything after the body and neck blanks is essentially done by hand and still requires a LOT of sanding to remove tool marks. Arguably, bandsaws, CNC and Pin-router are not creating 'hand-made' guitars because they are all power tools and using orbital sanders too. Its not using chisels and sanding etc to create a guitar so technically are any guitars hand-made these days? A CNC is just a tool for a guitar builder - they have the 'templates' and carve programmed in instead of having to set-up every time you do a new body, don't need a pre-carved body to use a jig to carve more of the same. Whether you want to use a CNC or Router, that's personal choice and doesn't make one better or worse...

[@TexasToastGuitars]

It's a really funny thing that people like to go round and round about what is or isn't hand made I started saying that I thought my pin router was sexy and people still get bent out of shape with me. hahahaha

[@rok1475]

BAM Mözzi CNC router can do everything pin router does. Pin router can not do everything a CNC router can.

[@TomL-]

Is it a pain in the ass to do angled neck pockets that way? Or do you just set the break angle on the neck itself? I like the visibility, but I think that I would mess up alot having to use the templates on the back side, lol.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

It isn't a big pain to do it we have a few jigs that make it a breeze. We usually angle the neck but can do the pocket as well

[@steveredenbaugh9058]

and that`s how Matt puts his Pin in the Pocket..

[@TexasToastGuitars]

You best believe it brother Steve

[@kearnsguitars2236]

How bad is the learning curve to use a pin router? It always seemed complicated

[@DavidRavenMoon]

Can you use a hand held router with templates? It’s the same idea, only the template is under the work.

[@kearnsguitars2236]

@@DavidRavenMoon that's what I use now

[@michaelphillips1323]

I’m going to ask a couple of questions that the answers are probably obvious to, but what the hey... Is the pin like a bearing? IE: does it spin in its hole, or is it in there tight. ...and...i know that you add thickness to your pin with tape, but is the pin generally the same size as the bit in the router? I really love your videos. Very informative! Thanks!

[@TexasToastGuitars]

The pin in my JET unit is in a bearing so it can spin but doesn't really need to. The Grizzly is in a sleeve, same kind of idea though. You want the pin to be the same size as the cutting tool for pattern work.

[@michaelphillips1323]

@@TexasToastGuitars thanks for the reply. I'm thinking about fixing some way to mount my router to do some pickup cavity routing. Moving the piece rather than trying to control that wildly spinning beast seems like a better idea.

[@onpsxmember]

Small surface or when I don't have double sided tape: tape&CA-Glue trick. I'd never use that for a big surface, cause firstly the fumes would burn my eyes out and kill lots of braincells (which there aren't so many left anyway) and you need a shitton of CA-Glue. There is such amazing ultra thin double sided tape from 3M or competitors that does a gret job. I wonder what has a bigger ecological impact...all that CA-Glue or all the plastic foil. Doublesided tape is 100% healthier. You probably just pissed cause you hear it so often. I guess lots of people know you're building guitars and they just want to share what was mindblowing for them when they first discovered it. You always do what works and that's how it should be. What kind of doublesided tape do you use? Some may rip out tiny splinters from certain woods. Could you make a video where you show how you guys handle the dust inside your shop? Thx.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

People love to tell me about super glue and masking tape, as you could tell I get told about it so much that it irritates me hahaha You are spot on I use what works for me and if given half a chance I go with screws rather than any tape

[@DavidRavenMoon]

Yeah but why wouldn’t you have double stick tape? I have 2 tools of the thin stuff and two rolls of the foam stuff in my shop. I use the thin stuff for lots of tasks, including assembling pickups.

[@DavidRavenMoon]

Texas Toast Guitars I use screws for body templates. The screws go in where the pickups will go.

[@j-mo2453]

Chris! Fire up the Time Flyer 2000 and dial it in to 1956! We are taking a cnc machine back to Leo Fender and see what he does! LoL Fast forward... Matt’s like... domo oragato! Today we are going to cut a neck pocket on my beloved pin router just like they did in the Ibáñez shop back in the day, using old school Japanese import guitar building techniques! We don’t need no stinking cnc! Lol

[@j-mo2453]

We’re calling this series of videos, what would Hoshino Gakki do? Lmao

[@TexasToastGuitars]

CNC isn't sexy

[@j-mo2453]

No it’s really not so much. No muscles and sweat and pheromones whatsoever. Very little erotic response in le femmes programming generic mediocrity. Lol

[@j-mo2453]

I kid Leo would run with it and jump head in manufacturing 60 years, but reality is he’d scoff because I forgot the laptop and the demo was a dud. Lol

[@j-mo2453]

I don’t personally think in terms of cnc for woodwork much. But I have some industrial design and cad experience and could 3D solid model a guitar with same software.. So I get it. Or... just hear me out this sounds crazy... draw some shit up 2d and dimension it and print it and then go bring it into three dimensions with astounding trade skills. Lol

[@DavidRavenMoon]

I’m chiming in saying masking tape and superglue sucks. I’ve been using double stick tape for about 30 years. Never have an issue. I tried out the masking tape thing and felt it was more time consuming, and didn’t work any better. Plus CA glue is expensive. At lest the stuff I use is. I don’t see the point.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

I like your style David

[@michaelballinger4297]

Love your videos. What spiral bits do you use?

[@TexasToastGuitars]

I think we are using infinity bits these days

[@michaelballinger4297]

@@TexasToastGuitars thanks. Do you use an up cut or down cut in the pin router

[@7stringbassist]

Chapeau 👋👋👍👍

[@electroKrunch]

The younguns just don't appreciate the values we all have for making something from the heart!! Wake up Young know nothings... This is fabrication from the heart. Labor put into the piece because the fabricator cares about the end product. The "End Product" from TT is the guitar that someone will play awesome music on. Do you young people even realize this situation? Good sound without a computer? TT is doing it...

[@robertbarker2458]

It's mainly the older people using CNC machines eg Chris from high Line guitars and larger guitar manufacturers the young can not afford a CNC alot of the use hand tools and that is because of KZbin they are learning from guys like Mat btw lm 54 so lm not a young person l love using my bandsaw router and other hand tools and lm happy with what l make

[@TexasToastGuitars]

I'll put my tool receipts against any small builder using a CNC hahaha

[@electroKrunch]

Send CNC to China, TT pin Router will make me a guitar eventually

[@TexasToastGuitars]

I like your style Karl, It's a really funny thing that people like to go round and round about what is or isn't hand made I started saying that I thought my pin router was sexy and people still get bent out of shape with me. hahahaha

[@CaptainScarlet1961]

Another great vidya as usual, I'm old school too & I think CNC machines make shit too easy & they take away all the sense of achievement for me!

[@TexasToastGuitars]

I'm afraid we are dinosaurs SmokinJoe

[@CaptainScarlet1961]

@@TexasToastGuitars: Yeah' I guess we are, keep the great videos comin' :-)

[@juliansuarez3849]

Fuck cnc!! Pin router is so much funn... thanks Beardless Matt!!

[@TexasToastGuitars]

I like that other shops have CNC machines hahaha

[@alanrothsman1751]

I only use my fingernails to make guitars as I am a purist, Still working on my first maple neck, I will post a video of the results in a few years.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

I would rather see your fingernails

[@alanrothsman1751]

@@TexasToastGuitars I had a Wadkin LS Overhead for years, wish I could get one in single phase 240 and I would have one again yesterday.

[@rok1475]

CNC routers are expensive, require more maintenance and different skills (CAD/CAM) that not every guitar maker can pick up quickly. But if you had to make 10,000 guitars a year, it may come up on your wish list as you transition from being a guitar maker to guitar factory owner.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

I think I get what you are driving at Robert. I know a lot of boutique builders, many of them use CNC and none of them even come close to 10000 guitars a year. I guess you have to aim high, right

[@joshmoates9730]

Super kick ass

[@TexasToastGuitars]

Lord knows I love it

[@kylemoran4343]

I don't get it ? WTF, it's the END product, not how ya get there ! If the guitar looks great, intonates decent, sounds great, feels, great, WHY should the player give a fick how it was made... "You do what you do, I do what I do" ! I like it !

[@TexasToastGuitars]

It's a silly thing to argue about but it tends to polarize guitar builders and buyers too. Most people don't care but there is 1% that thinks it's important. Let me ask you this... if Paul Reed Smith built the guitar using the tools they had in 1985 could you see an extra value vs. one made on the line in 2019? This is where you say that you don't like PRS guitars or even that Paul said the new stuff is better then the old guitars but I think you know what I'm talking about.

[@kylemoran4343]

I was just wondering what day Paul built my guitar... Monday morning or Friday afternoon ? I guess machines, or they're operators have they're shit days too, I'm sure. I like my toast with butter and jam and my guitars that play in tune :-)

[@tigertigerpantherfox3714]

Is that Les Paul shape Authentic ;p

[@TexasToastGuitars]

Nope, way too thin to be authentic

[@connordrysdale5333]

I just want a CNC so I don’t fuck up 😂

[@juniorkong9587]

The pin in a pin router is actually called a stylus.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

Good to know

[@drittal]

I’m not smart so I’ll let you do it.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

We are ready when you are my friend

[@drittal]

Just waiting on the wife’s approval. 😂 this might be a while at this point. Momma wants a new car!

[@electroKrunch]

Yeah, adding a $45K machine to the shop makes things "better"... BS...

[@TexasToastGuitars]

There are CNC machines and then there are CNC machines

[@rok1475]

Karl Engstrom Adding $45k machine may make the shop more productive. The main reason for introducing any machines was always to increase productivity.

[@1980bwc]

Matt, if you would just listen to the KZbin Luthiers, you would make perfect guitars, and all other company's would just shut down due to their lack of your skills! 😆

[@TexasToastGuitars]

I do what I do and they do what they do. There are lots of good guitar makers who have developed some great techniques

[@donvanco3078]

He doesn't even use masking tape and glue - how can I possibly trust his opinion on CNC -vs- Router?

[@donvanco3078]

I'm not even going to comment on the whole "CNC isn't a handmade guitar" thing - because anyone that thinks that doesn't know shit about what it takes to actually make a guitar. It's a tool.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

The ol' tape and glue thing is a sure sign of a professional

[@TheCWHatton]

Skills. It's all skills. A programmer sets up CNC and then monkeys push parts in. A skilled craftsman, or Luthier uses tools and learned skills to create an instrument.

[@TexasToastGuitars]

It's a really funny thing that people like to go round and round about what is or isn't hand made I started saying that I thought my pin router was sexy and people still get bent out of shape with me. hahahaha