Old Testament CONTROVERSIES: Evolution, Genocide, Homosexuality & Historicity w/ Dr. Tremper Longman

[@jthuff5102]

great chat

[@derekmchardy8730]

Wonderful discussion thanks. Re human origins I wonder how Dr Longman sees Romans 5: both death & life coming through one man. In his 'Quest for the Historical Adam' William Lane Craig re-emphasises the theological case for an original couple whilst tentatively placing them 700,000 years ago. Re homosexual practice I think you're both right. The Bible- OT & NT - clearly labels this as sin. I think that it can well be argued that the church has often got the gravity of this sin out of proportion. We all continue to sin and use all sorts of rationalisation to minimise the wrongness of what we do. The specific problem, however, seems to be this: I'm unaware of a 'Christian' movement saying that we must accept and endorse lying, stealing or substance abuse.

[@THECHARGEwithDennisMetzler]

I have never been able to accept a historical original couple. Whether it is Craig or Longman or Walton I just don't find their theories compelling. There are historical elements in the story, especially given the genealogy but...

[@THECHARGEwithDennisMetzler]

And yes, the affirming crowd will ask the traditionalists why we put so much emphasis on the sin of homosexual practice. And to add to your point, if there is a movement to affirm stealing then you will see the "traditionalists" putting quite an emphasis on opposing stealing.

[@nobodyimportant8778]

At 37:05 Dr. Longman brings up the emergence of what seems like early Hebrew settlements in the hill country as evidence that the bible is speaking historically when that's more evidence to the contrary. Rather than pointing to an invading force from Egypt, it seems to fit better with the narrative of local people after the bronze age collapse forming into a new group of communities that later grew large enough and organized enough to become a country. It points towards Hebrew people being native to the land, not foreigners. That's why someone could see those as being early Hebrew(or more accurately pre-Hebrew) communities and still think of the pre-Davidic events in the bible as being mostly legendary/mythological.

[@jthuff5102]

we can't figure out fact from fiction in our times. how much harder is it in ancient times

[@THECHARGEwithDennisMetzler]

Yes, I tend to agree with you. That particular piece of evidence doesn't appear to point towards a conquest by foreigners, i.e. the now free Hebrews.

[@grantgooch5834]

A sudden appearance of Israelite culture in the hill country, identified by the distinct faunal remains of the surrounding Canaanite culture, is entirely consistent with the biblical narrative where the Israelites defeat the native Canaanites and occupy their villages and cities. As Dr. Longman mentioned in the video, only 3 cities were destroyed by the Israelites: Jericho, Hazor, and Ai; all of the other cities were occupied. When minimalists say there is a lack of evidence for a military conquest they mean there is a lack of evidence that the Israelites destroyed and then rebuild Canaanite cities as Israelite cities, except that isn't what the text says happened. The Egyptian city of Avaris was occupied by Asiatic-Semites for centuries from the 2nd Intermediate period to the early 19th Dynasty when it was suddenly abandoned during the reign of Rameses II. These people didn't move into the nearby city of Pi-Ramses. By 1208 you have Mernephtah recording that the Israelites are a distinct people group in the Levant. Around 1200, Hazor is completely destroyed. Lorenzo Nigro's recent excavations at Jericho have uncovered late bronze casement fortifications, distinct from the limestone fortifications of the large middle bronze city, which are gone by the Iron Age when all that is left of the city is a small village. Any potential late bronze destruction layer would have been erased by later site leveling. What the evidence shows is that a bunch of Asiatics left Egypt in the middle of the 13th century and then by the end of the 12th century there is a group of people in the Levant known as "Israel." Hazor was definitely destroyed during the Late Bronze 2B and Jericho likely was as well. After that you have distinctly Israelite settlements pop up in the hill country on top of Canaanite sites. That sounds a lot like the Exodus and Conquest to me.

[@GraceandTruth77]

God spoke the Cosmos into existence our if Nothing....that is How The Triune God did it.