Why Mike Israetel Is WRONG About The Overhead Press

[Original Video] • Why You Should Never D...
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[@OmarIsuf]

Mike has one of the best KZbin Fitness Channels out there. However, I believe he is wrong about the overhead press not being great for building your deltoids. I think it is overall an excellent shoulder exercise. What is your opinion?

[@Frankisrock]

Even if it is good for hypertrophy, I think his other point is that the stimulus to fatigue ratio is not favorable. Making it less than ideal for growing delts.

[@Reppintimefitness]

Not better than your 💯 Or mine

[@ShookKe3]

I love your points. I am relatively new to training the OHP seriously, but it is my favorite exercise, just because I love the feeling. Until now, the SFR doesn't seem so bad and I have a hard time overdoing it with the weight I am currently at. Maybe it also comes down to your training age and individual response to the exercise. And the part of loving an exercise, can't be overemphasized. Not everyone is a robot, like mike :D

[@FullRangeOfMotion7]

@@Frankisrock I mean if we go "stimulus to fatigue ratio", might aswell scrap the bench press for a dumbell press and the squat for a leg press. And OHP is probably the least faiguing big lift. I find it personally a lot less fatiguing than the bench press or barbell row.

[@enmorot]

My short answer: It is hard to say as it depends on many factors such as goals, preferences, etc.. But in general, it's a great exercise, one of the better ones, but not essential for hypertrophy. My long answer: For a person only interested in hypertrophy, the OHP is not essential. There are a lot of great presses overhead available out there that can also build your front and side delts (as well as lateral raises and upright rows). The good thing about the OHP as opposed to other variations, however, is that it is possible to progress on for a very long time, adding a little bit of weight and/or reps over many years. It also produces a lot of "raw stimulus" (to use Mike's term) for front and side delts, and trains them in a lengthened position (as Omar pointed out). While it also produces quite a lot of fatigue in comparison to other presses overhead and lateral raises, the raw stimulus is certainly still there, and for most people that isn't that strong (at least not yet, and as Omar mentioned) the fatigue side of the lift shouldn't be too much of a problem. Hence, I do think it is a very good lift for beginners, no matter if they are only interested in hypertrophy, strength, or both, as they will not be that strong yet. Also, if one is interested in general strength, or simply being a strong presser overhead, you essentially have the best of both worlds in the OHP as it is great to build strength. For enhanced people, there is certainly the argument that delt training isn't as important (but still necessary of course), while for naturals, delts often need to be a priority even. Hence, having the OHP along with lateral raises and other presses overhead may be a good idea. Lastly, as both of you are mentioning, we should not underestimate the enjoyment factor. If one likes the OHP, it will, as long as one is able to do it, be great exercise. To sum up, I would say that the OHP, while not essential by any means, is one of the best exercises for beginners, even if they are only interested in hypertrophy. For advanced lifters only interested in hypertrophy, I can certainly see an argument for switching it out most or even all of the time, depending on one's preferences and "stimulus to fatigue-ratio" for the exercise (this basically applies to "intermediates" as well). Here overall programming is also a thing - I personally often exclude the OHP in hypertrophy programs for advanced lifters with a lot of other big exercises (SBD, etc.) and/or a lot of horizontal pressing. For people interested in strength (alone or alongside hypertrophy), it is almost an auto-include (not if you are only interested in SBD, however, even if can serve as a great assistance exercise). Hence, I do not agree with Mike that it is a bad exercise for hypertrophy in general, but not essential either. If one has additional goals with their lifting beyond hypertrophy and/or enjoys the OHP, it is a very good exercise to include.

[@TheRationalLifter]

I hate it when mum and dad argue in public

[@TaroLoaf]

LMAO underrated comment

[@Flawgore]

Mike Israetel is always right about everything.

[@TheRealEffluence]

Lol

[@jgoldian47]

I agree

[@johndim11]

Exactly, just ask him.

[@erikacook7323]

I mean, my glutes say he's definitely wrong about the hip thrust.

[@MaxBadstibner]

A lot of people unironically believe this.

[@user-fe2oh8oj2u]

Yes, you can absolutely grow delts via OHP, but I think Mike's point was that if hypertrophy/growing delts is your main goal (and not overall body strength), then there are more efficient exercises that will help build delts in a faster/safer way without getting you as much tired (which will allow you to train other muscles/do other exercies). And I agree. There are exercises that target delts much better. I myself love doing OHP and will keep doing that but only because I don't care much about growing delts, I just have fun doing that exercise (and, unlike Mike, I cannot let go of my manliness yet lol).

[@rtds2024]

true

[@cimi93x]

you're not supposed to worry about exercises getting you tired, if they do you either have a terrible workout capacity or conditioning or both, and should likely work on that asap.

[@akutooth]

​@cimi93x I mean, there is something to be said for stimulus to fatigue ratio.

[@Zombies8Jayden]

@@cimi93x I guess that's valid if you're in your 20s and don't have a physical job.

[@cimi93x]

@@Zombies8Jayden it's only not valid if you've never done sports in your life, which is a mistake you can fix... As a man you should be in great shape in your 30s and even 40s and if you have a physical job you can easily handle any sort of gym exercise, it's literally nothing compared to a physical job

[@pwnerofwrlds]

Alex has proven the effectiveness of the ohp time and time again

[@MrAntonioCapone]

In a recent video he argued for doing both the OHP and the AD press (seated OHP with slight incline). He explained that the standard OHP is great for shoulder health and injury prevention.

[@Necrosythe2]

I think the last point on stim to fatigue is important. Surely some of Mike's point isn't that it's not going to do anything at all. More so that if your goal is maximizing a program, there just almost certainly better exercise choices to round out the program than OHP.

[@SlickBoiMoi]

As someone with wide clavicles I experienced more growth on the side delts when I started implementing OHP into my program

[@waliddilaw1824]

Alex from alphadestiny is a living example that all you need is ohp + facepull to get massive delts. If he had his current physique 5 years ago everyone would accuse him of being on steroids. Guy's delts are capped af

[@farisakhtar4824]

He also does a lot of inverted rows, which would contribute to his rear delts.

[@SergeyLifts]

At this point I would love to see a study made on specifically natural, intermediate lifters, to see the side/front delt growth on compound (mainly OHP) compared with isolation excercises ALONE.

[@iangraham-white5717]

why not compared to upright rows?

[@mcfarvo]

I use fairly moderate barbell OHP along with light lateral raises, fairly light bent-over rear fly, and heavy barbell rows to work the delts, and this works alright for a little home gym in garage 💪 if I was like Mike with a massive shed gym with lots of machines in addition to a full dumbbell rack (in addition to Barbella), I probably would do more variations for the delts, but w/e 💪

[@Thickrick004]

I'm thinking of making a switch to a home gym. How do you feel you progress with those limited exercises

[@DraperJake]

Mike is my personal hero and Michigan homeboy. But I am feeling that you're both right here. I can change the way I do an OHP and feel it differently.

[@askingwhy123]

Another great video! On one word choice, it's "overstated," not understated. It can't be "overstated" because it's so important, no matter how much you stress it, you could never overstate its importance.

[@adamezarik8929]

Excellent example of healthy and respectful disagreement

[@kohgoomah0105]

Awesome point on loading lateral delta from the stretched position!!! Great to hear refreshing facts!

[@SHINYxCHROME]

can we get a calf cam?

[@shmuckling]

I think there are some things that can have an effect on weather it's a good exercise for someone or not, that kind of get left out. For example size and relative strength - a larger, stronger person might get really poor SFR from the OHP, just because they have to lift much heavier weight to stay in the hypertrophy range - I stay below 30 reps with my 30-ish lb dumbbells, and for my 5'10" 190lb frame the SFR isn't bad at all, specially when pinned against the STR(time, I like compound movements because I get to hit everything in less time and it's less complicated). For a lot of people who are way stronger than me, they might have to use 2-3 times that weight and if they started off with a similar frame, well - I can see specifically the axial fatigue just being a limiting factor, and those people are probably way better off using other exercises. Another thing is the rep range - seems people like to train compounds in the lower rep ranges, but I think there's a little bit of ego attached to that. There's no reason why you can't do the OHP in the 15-25 range - of all the basic compounds, it's probably the weakest one for most people(maybe challenged by the upright row?), so most people with remotely good conditioning can train it in the higher rep ranges without being limited by their cardio. In addition, delts do a lot of "stabilizing" work and are often slightly slower twitch for most people, so they usually respond well to higher reps.

[@AlexS_983]

If you do a side delt exercise first or even a superset as he said in the conclusion it definitely makes it a way, way better exercise. I get an insane pump and my side delt even fails first. The only issue is you can't load it up as much which just kills me inside

[@Bombsuitsandkilts]

Also how vertical you Stat when you press, if you do a lot of lay back it's more upper pec and front delt but if you do it like an olympic lifter by pressing the bar backwards (I cue my lifters to press with their traps) it is a great upper back and side delt excersise

[@user-hc5pi5zh5j]

Great stuff as always, audio seemed a bit muffled in this one though!

[@manuelmoreira8575]

Brilliant video, Omar!

[@Dmoriarty1993]

It's good to see Omar back. I wouldn't say that the OHP leaves the lateral deltoid inactive. Especially as it's important for drawing the weight back overhead.

[@michaele.strasser9641]

In many plans I am doing OHP followed by a special variation of upright rows - with a barbell and medium, wider than shoulders grip. I wonder why nobody talks about this combination.

[@pHDouf]

Because of the amount of external rotation at the GHJ (much more than internal rotation at any point of the movement), it makes the biomechanics favor the front > lateral. And in that position I would question if the lateral fibres are in greater length than the front fibres. I can understand Dr Mike’s point that the OHP might be great, but for overall growth of deltoids maybe overrated. A lot of people might believe it to be the e greatest shoulder builder but other exercises might need to be focused on.

[@MrEd12345678910]

As a natural who has trained for over 15 years with competitive experience, I can confirm that the standing overhead press accounted for the majority of my shoulder gains, I’ve tried almost all shoulder exercises but nothing seemed to give me growth like the military press did.

[@jjmuti3979]

personally my case for standing ohp is that in seated variations people tend to lean back against the bench and it's also harder for the elbows to flare out if your back is against the bench both of these mean the lift biases the front delts more.

[@DCJayhawk57]

​@jjmuti3979 Not only that, but you don't use your scapula in the seated version, the standing is a lot better for shoulder health and mobility. There's no reason you can't do both. I personally can't get enough FRONT delt stimulus from the standing OHP, so I've recently shifted to more of the seated version to bring up my front delts. I listened for too long to the "you don't need to train your front delts directly" crowd, and now deep into my lifting career my front delts are lagging.

[@1TieDye1]

How do you know it came from ohp and not the other pressing you do?

[@horaciogonzalez4070]

That’s why he said that if it works for you then add it to your exercises. It works for me and it doesn’t tax me like deadlift would for me.

[@rogerzachariades5337]

Its not about your experience though its what the science says . Maybe its your periodization, sleep, recovery in each exercise program that might had influenced your results and not really the exercise or perhaps it might be the fact that you like the overhead shoulder press and therefore you pushed yourself more to progress on it compared to other exercises.

[@harrisonsmith5825]

There are more efficient ways to develop delts with a vertical push. OHP is great but the amount of energy exertion through bracing alone when pushing for greater loads / mechanical tension will restrict how far you can develop delts through that movement. A vertical push such as a seated plate loaded shoulder press/smith machine or even a seated barbell/dumbell OHP is going to allow more stability to push greater loads for more, causing the delts to… delt more

[@RazgrizDuTTA]

I know hypertrophy and soreness are not strictly correlated, but every time I am detrained then start doing OHP again, I have very sore side delts so it must be involved quite significantly.

[@Taophysique]

Yeah OHP is great but it's not goated for side and/or rear delts. I did them for years to the point I could do my bodyweight for 3 reps and my delts lacked proportion and that round look. But when I added more lateral raises and face pulls before my presses, my shoulders started looking like I was related to Frieza

[@jaylordlao3486]

I was laying down and I remembered you my lifting days lmao I’m surprised your still at it

[@j.m.4858]

Great video man.

[@cc11cc11cc]

Omar preaching again 🙏🏻🔝👍🏻💪🏻

[@yahoshua2527]

I do a different shoulder barbell workout twice a week, first workout is 2 sets upright rows superset with front lateral raise then second workout is 2 sets of overhead dumbbell press superset with front lateral raise and exercises follow through with 5 sets of side lateral raise, and then i do seated reverse flys for back delts on my pull days, and my gains and development on my shoulders is crazy

[@vaselineintensivecaredrysk3160]

Nice video man. Where did you get the shirt?

[@Simply_chase]

So happy to see Omar back on the feed

[@mrhellboy218]

I had seated dumbbell presses in my program for the last few months, and I do think some overhead pressing variation is nice to have in your routine.

[@xz9908]

After watching that Mike’s video, I’ve changed the way I use OHP variations for hypertrophy this last 2 weeks. Right now I do laterals and then after smith OHP with pre exhausted side delts. Change of pace as I was a very compound first then isolation, but I’ve started adding compounds after isolations to see how well or different my body reacts

[@heibaimao]

How's it so far?

[@waliddilaw1824]

Keep us updated

[@flemmingchekinskiy8197]

Im interested aswell

[@johnsonr9]

Been lifting for 55 years and agree with you on this one. Good comparison with bench press and triceps

[@consoommediaandlie8614]

I think an under appreciated aspect of compound exercises is the fact that different muscles are worked at different ranges of motion. The shoulders get a lot of assistance from the triceps and traps at the top, but at the bottom, they get that juicy stretch stimulus all to them selves 😋. Also, I think the way the overhead press is usually coached and performed largely affects how good it is for the side delt. Moving your grip out maybe a fist width then your ‘standard’ grip and really flaring your elbows helps your side delts contribute much more, the narrow grip really encourages your elbows to be far in front of you or at least facing forward. Most people don’t want to do this because you have to cut the weight considerably. Furthermore you could do the dreaded behind the neck press 😱. BTN press has always worked great for me and is really the only side delt exercise that gives me doms, I’ve always thought of it as a bench press for your side delt. Your mileage may vary but I would give it a shot as long as you can do so comfortably.

[@Soccasteve]

The seated BTN is amazing, most are too afraid to do it. I wouldn’t go super heavy on it but it’s great in that 8-12 rep zone.

[@RazgrizDuTTA]

I worked for nearly 2 years to gain the mobility to do the BTN press and now I can only agree with you: very sore side delts! I have a 55 lbs/25 kg gap in 10RM between my full range of motion BTN press and OHP: it's crazy!

[@VacuumDweller]

BTN is savagely underrated, both for press and for Pulldowns. I can definitely understand if someone is just plainly unable to perform it due to their anatomy or flexibility/mobility issues, but I can personally attest to the effectiveness of both.

[@BluegillGreg]

As a kid in the 1970s the clean and press was THE lift. Entering my late 60s I still do it. Staying strong in this lift preserves overall human resilience. And it does keep those shoulders well developed. I don't think an exercise done by lying on my back or sitting in a machine that does part of the work is nearly as adaptive on an overall improvement of human abilities level.

[@Fuckingboredrn]

I wanna agree with ya but I don't understand what you mean bye human ability. It would train that movement pattern better than more conventional lifts that don't involve the same coordination or explosiveness but other than that I don't see it's use vs more stable movements Absolute inspiration tho on the training into your 60s 💪 I wanna do that aswell and really respect my father and grandfather for doing the same. Grandfather just ran a half marathon actually a couple months ago

[@BakerAnts]

@@Fuckingboredrn It does promote full body stability more than any other lift.

[@Fuckingboredrn]

@@BakerAnts how so

[@BakerAnts]

You have to stabilize your entire body over the longest lever arm of all lifts.

[@Fuckingboredrn]

@@BakerAnts yeah but does thay transfer tho to everyday life or is it movement specific. From what I know general stability training only goes so far and traing for stability tends to end up being specific to your lift rather than general stability (sorta the bosu ball effect, you gotta stay real stable on it and you can get good at that specifically but its not very productive outside of just being better at training on an unstable surface) besides just training to have a stronger general core front and back which would be better done imo through movements that directly grow those muscles. Weighted crunches back extensions deadlifts ect. (Not saying your wrong just I don't think I agree but stability training isn't my forte for sure)

[@Abdo.R.Mohamed]

Quick Question guys : does it matter for Side delts if OHP is Close grip or normal grip or wide grip ?

[@jasonfleenor]

I havent done lateral raises in 7 months and my side delts are definitely not as big as they used to be, even though ive added 25lbs to my ohp in that time.

[@bermysanders9278]

From what I gathered, from watching Mikes vids and Alex leonidas is that the OHP for 'Hypertrophy' is excellent for most Beginner and intermediate lifters but once it gets to the stimilus/fatigue ratio is super high i.e ur lower back becoming a big factor that the seated will allow you to lift slightly lighter and reap the benefits. i'm a beginner and i'm getting a heap out of doing the OHP, i don't need to do a seated AD press because my back isn't the limiting factor

[@bermysanders9278]

OHP is also great for shoulder health

[@DaLordIsBack1]

Hey now, what about upper pecs ans tris during the OHP? And are we all going to be doing behind the neck version for ultimate deltoid stimulation?

[@JWinch]

To counter objections about lateral raise do the cable version of them where there IS maximal tension in the eccentric.

[@dantean]

I've NEVER made progress capping my delts with Laterals alone--gotta press, too!

[@austinohlrich9370]

My own anecdotal experience: Ive only ever trained upper body with dumbells, specifically these exercises.. bench, one arm rows, pullups, and seated shoulder press. My front delts are by far the biggest of my delts, my sides are about half 1/3 the size of the front, and my rear are about a little smaller than my sides. About 2 months ago i started doing laterals and bent lats because of this. Shoulder press seems (for me) to barely hit the sides, if at all. But they sure a sht hit the fronts.

[@giorgosygros1757]

the db ohp is the only one (from the exercises u listed) that hits the side delts at all but your front delts were also stimulated by the bench press so i would attribute this imbalance to the fact that you did technically 2 movements for the front delts (bench and ohp), one for the side (ohp) and 0,5 for the rear (db row). by adding lateral raises you added the missing volume for the side delts to be hit as hard as the front

[@austinohlrich9370]

@@giorgosygros1757 hmm that makes sense. I do tend to do the ohp with a more neutral grip too, feels better for my shoulder joint, so that might be a factor too

[@GUITARTIME2024]

What's your seated angle? I moved mine to the setting just before "fully straight". Helped. I turn the dumbells a little towards diagonal.

[@GDoggy-em2xc]

One thing I notice about OHP work is it certainly builds my rear delts.

[@mab963]

Omar, for somebody who wants a big overhead press + hypertrophy: what is your program recommendation?

[@michaelphasey-sharp9457]

Do you get the same effect using a neutral grips swiss bar rather than straight bar

[@SUPER8ALTERN8]

Hey @Omarisuf where do you get the swolaire T shirt?

[@holtszom3746]

i always wonder why i´m almost passing out when lifting heavier on the standing OHP

[@lennartauwerder4120]

Perfect Addition to Mikes Video ❤

[@drednac]

I used to do a lot of lateral rises and I had better shoulders (wider) since I stopped doing them and I am only doing OHP .. so I had to stop doing it because I have limited time and energy/recovery and I wanted to have big OHP I had to do some sacrifices. My OHP is the best it ever been but I looked a little bit better when I was doing lateral rises, because OHP doesn't hit side delts as well .. I can definitely feel them so the are being hit by OHP (I can be even a little bit sore there) but it cannot replace lateral rises .. at least for me.

[@tanzilhossain2693]

Do both

[@drednac]

@@tanzilhossain2693 I can't I have two gym sessions a week. I could do it if I have an extra day for accessories .. but I generally don't recover very well and I am busy.

[@Strongman_Gimli]

I have no issues building my rears & sides by doing behind the neck pressing. I warm up with 2x10 front & behind the neck on every training day

[@arewestilldoingphrasing6490]

OHP and BB Pullover (not discussed for shoulders) are my favorite lifts

[@d3rpn1nj47]

The OHP isn't a great overall delt builder because it doesn't hit the side delts well or the rear delts at all - Dr. Mike What exercise does hit all three heads of the deltoid group at once? - Anyone ............. - Dr. Mike

[@keving1085]

I think that cable lat raises get more side delt stimulus especially at the more important stretched part of the movement and cable front raises do the same for the front delts. The delt heads can stretch far more than they are at the most stretched part of the OHP and the bottom part of the movement isn't even the hardest (same as DB lat raise which is why OHP is likely superior). I'm very skeptical about the fascination over overhead movements because at least theoretically I think there is more stretch-mediated hypertrophy with less fatigue through front and side cable raises.

[@jademao43]

The point about the side delt being loaded at a lengthened position is very compelling, especially since it covers a major weakness of the db lateral raise.

[@johnconaghan8175]

Side lats etc are less fatiguing on the CNS than ohp. Can be done more often. Incline work hits near the same muscle groups

[@joel5956]

At least for myself, the standing barbell OHP is more motivating. My only thing against it isn't really the fault of the movement. The OHP is only ever in my program as an accessory lift so I can't prioritize it like my bench press. It plateaus a lot when it probably wouldn't if I were training it a few times a week.

[@unclemoneymoneyuncle8702]

Had a tear/strain of the left pec when chasing a new bench PR (which was always my primary focus in comparison to OHP) so after that I sidelined bench for a good while, during that time I only kept bench in the rotation for lighter weight/higher rep bloodflow/recovery but was able to focus on OHP fresh and as my first big movement and that's when I was able to hit and smash new PR's on OHP that before seemed like never would happen, so really it's what you're putting your bigger emphasis/focus on as otherwise it felt like my OHP had hit a plateau but it was just because it was an afterthought with bench as the main.

[@zezeti2246]

It depends,at least from my experience upright rows are the best for wide shoulders,but the ohp will help your bench press😅

[@bendagostino2217]

Ive dropped side raises and have been doing overhead press twice a week for the past 10 months and my shoulders have blown up. Even my side delts seem bigger.

[@StephColbertsonStrength]

Need to bring OHP back just so I can regain the mobility to go overhead haha. Nice to know it’ll help out my tiny side delts too!

[@davidguillemette380]

But if we take into account specificity doesn't this rule out Ohp?

[@unlimited-limitless]

I also feel it in the back when doing overheaed press.

[@Azgorth02]

The overall weight lifted by the side delts in the OHP isn't even remotely close to half of the total weight due to the engagement of triceps. Unlike upright rows & laterals. It's interesting triceps are never addressed despite the significant part they play in OHP.

[@Ficcator]

Chris Beardsley has a nice chart of how the individual heads of the deltoid and the clavicular head of the pectoralis major engage during the OHP.

[@Apollyon.King.of.the.Locusts]

Just to comment quickly before watching further, overhead press is currently one of my favourite regular exercises. But I don't use the regular powerlifting technique. Instead, I press behind the neck using a very wide grip (sometimes called "snatch grip"). Also, I lower the bar as far back as I can and I bring the movement to a complete halt in both the low and high positions. I breath in while the bar is on the so called "low bar" position and I breath out while lifting the bar. In other words, I try to make the exercise as slow and painful as possible while using only very moderate weights with maximal range of motion. I have found out that this exercise grows my traps like no other exercise. Rear delts gets some stimulus too, but I do this exercise solely because I wan't to grow bigger traps, and it really seems to work well for me in this regard. My traps are always really pumped up after doing this exercise and it seems to be perfectly ok to just spam this exercise every day too, because I don't use heavy weights on this exercise.

[@ClayHales]

Looking at the whole program in totality is a great point. I feel like a lot of the science based training types have a tendency of looking at training like a min/max exercise.

[@kneewizard6246]

Its a heavy compound movement, so highly efficient and easy to progress with. Issue is that the prime mover is front delts. Expert opinions are all over the place with importance of front delts though consensus is if doing enough volume for chest and side delts then front delt work is unnecessary.

[@trogdortheburninator8149]

I’m quite strong at SBD but I have small and weak shoulders compared to my power lifts (lack of training). Started OHP more frequently this year and my shitty OHP has slowly been coming up but more importantly I’m growing shoulders! My OHP is barely half of my bench 😳 I rate it for growth.

[@vuton7670]

I need to start doing OHP, been doing single kettble bell OHP

[@RaoBlackWellizedArman]

I definitely agree with you! While I think Mike can be theoretically correct about the OHP not being as stimulating for the side delts, he likely overlooked one significant factor: the fact that the OHP is a compound movement, and we know that such exercises are much more effective for both hypertrophy and strength. For various reasons, including evolutionary considerations, the body typically does not allow one muscle or muscle group to grow in isolation. When it comes to shoulder development, as with any other muscle group, the optimal approach for hypertrophy often involves incorporating compound movements and isolation exercises together. Personally, I alternate between OHP on one day and a superset of front raises, lateral raises, and bent-over raises, all done with cables for their superior strength curve. The result is a well-rounded shoulder workout that allows for significant growth!

[@smirbelbirbel]

One thing I took from Mike's video was pre-fatiguing the side delt with cable lat raises before the OHP. They were sore! SORE! I had never had sore side delts! So there's definitely a way to make the OHP even better for delt growth.

[@Reddude24]

My front delts have def gotten bigger from overhead press. Only con is I have been getting a lot of strain on my left collarbone the heavier I go.

[@GhostSamaritan]

Ohp + Lu raise is my go-to. Although, I think the handstand push up is more beneficial than ohp.

[@Nunyabiznuts2012]

OHP has increased my presses BIG time.

[@Duimspijker]

I didn't know Eugene Teo had a second channel wow.

[@jeffreydhill]

I actually agree with Mike here, but that doesnt mean I dont think the OHP is a great lift. It does stimulate the side delt some, but anterior delt, upper trap and triceps generally get more work in the lift. Anecdotally, my side delts didnt get much pump or growth when I was doing a lot of OHP. However, they blew up when I switched to upright rows with a wide grip. I think this may have to do with varied bone structure and muscle insertions.

[@heathbennett6219]

Man sometimes I feel my laterals more than my front delts on a shoulder press

[@Krossf1re]

BTNP solves most of the points of contention. Forces less weight as well, which improves form and decreases spinal loading. My rear delts grow best from btnp vs anything else more targeted (face pulls, rear raises).

[@IronManAkatsuki]

Love OHP. Just feels like a real power move.

[@LiberatedMind1]

Wide OHP is I believe side delt dominant (lateral delts doing most of the work).

[@BuJammy]

I love OHP,, my favourite lift in all its forms, but I tend to agree, and not only for delts. If you want to bigenate your upper body in the most reliable way, then heavy bench as a baseline will do far more than OHP will (even heavy floor press will do more, IMO). I don't want to make it an "either/or" but that decision was taken for me, by YT fitness, years ago.

[@vrj8791]

Overhead Press followed by Lateral Raises is a godly combination. I don't see why you wouldn't do it. SFR is a valid point but kind of overrated unless you are so strong that it can mess you up. For an average intermidate to advanced lifter that can press between 135 to 225 pounds, I don't think that it is so much of an issue (even if they do 4 presses in the week which is quite common). Dr Mike is probably correct in saying that it is probably not the No1-ideal-optimal-supreme-way-of-attacking-the-delts, but lifting enjoyment is far more important than making your exercise selection 2% better!

[@brentlackey5787]

I agree with Mike tbh. The time period where my delts grew the most I was not doing any OHP. Incline bench hits front delts enough and lateral raises are the most important for size.

[@rtds2024]

true

[@KurokamiNajimi]

That might work early on but we’ll eventually need more front felt volume so it only makes sense to choose and exercise that hits it hard. Alex Leonidas is a good example of that he promotes the lift and increased his shoulders with a slightly modified version he likes to call the AD Press (Alpha Destiny Press or Anterior Delt Press). The OHP also hits the side delt almost as hard as lateral raises, idea that it doesn’t comes from outdated research. Especially a dumbbell OHP where you can flare out more. You don’t necessarily need 3 sets of it (or any exercise)

[@lmaolol9357]

​@charliedavison1665 It depends how high the incline is, and incline bench press won't grow your lateral deltoids.

[@deadcakesandpanlifts2019]

and the time period when my delts grew the most was when i was doing only ohp and no other shoulder exercises. Anectodes dont mean much.

[@cazschiller]

I find that its more intense for side delts when we force our ribs down from flaring open and equally force elbows tucked Edit - they both still will because otherwise you crush your chin or nose everytime 😂 but just to your point about side delts emphasis

[@joarflesja1516]

I don't know i eager with you. Im no on other then creatin, and my front was bigger then the back. So i startet now only some OFP and mutch side and back. And noe mye sholder are mutch rounder..

[@DCJayhawk57]

Side delts are clearly worked in the standing OHP. All you have to do is perform lateral raises after OHPs and notice how pre-fatigued you are. You can compare this to fatigue in the rear delts which aren't really stimulated by the OHP. Anecdotally, look at the side delt development of Strongman competitors and Olympic lifters who perform a lot of overhead work. Yeah I know, the majority aren't natty, but they still have big delts, right? If you know any natural strongman competitors, you'll know that they also have big delts (and upper backs). On a different note, I think the standing barbell OHP is great for shoulder health since there's so much scapular movement. If you're doing all your shoulder work seated, you may be pinning your scapula just like on a bench press and have a significant overhead movement deficit.

[@mudgie0205]

Love the Solaire shirt 😂

[@billaros1000]

You could summarize to: if you're strong enough that the OHP isn't good for you to train your shoulders, you're also experienced enough to know exactly when it stops being good. If you have to guess, keep the press!

[@Priimerra]

I always feel rear delts in ohp for some reason.

[@kylematthews3683]

Lateral raises make my shoulder pop or hurt. Overhead pushing movements do not. So they are by default better

[@los1wochos]

OHP and push press fucked me many times recovery wise. For me they are almost as hard as deadlifts on my CNS. I am not natty though and the weights were pretty high. maybe thats it. no idea tbh. But for me doing easier variations, seated, one armed standing DB, and things like that were key. I had everything. Elbow inflammation, CNS fatigue.

[@slimjim681]

I feel like people underestimate what putting tension on the bar can do for a muscle group. The rear delt probably gets some activation if you take a moment to tense up your body before the lift (as you should be doing). Front squats can grow your upper back and upper chest as well as possibly your posterior delts. Is it efficient? No. But to say it doesn’t do anything is probably wrong. No literature so idk. Just speculating from experience doing a lot of Olympic lifts over the years. Tension grows muscle.

[@k1mura92]

1. No exercise is "good" or "bad" in isolation - a lifters goals and prerequisites must always be taken into consideration. Example: A squat is mandatory for a powerlifter or olympic weight lifter, but not for a bodybuilder. And a squat can be a fantastic mass builder for a healthy, motivated individual with reasonable leverages for the lift - but it can also be a huge liability for a long femured, injury prone individual. 2. I think we all make certain assumptions when interpreting Dr. Mikes and now your (Omars) standpoints. This was of course touched upon in the video, but its most interesting to consider the OHP in the context of a complete bodybuilding program, where a lot of factors needs to be considered, such as: - Exercise efficacy - Time investment/efficiancy - Technical demands (impacts efficacy, motivation etc) - Injury risk - Fatigue to stimulus ratio and so on and so forth. The reason this is the natural context to discuss is because both Dr. Mike and Omar Isuf makes videos in the "bodybuilding/fitness" sphere, where the somewhat vague general goal of the viewers is to "build muscle". I suppose its worth mentioning that there has been a shift over the last 10 years with less focus on strength and compound movements, and more focus on hypertrophy / aesthetics. 3. Considering the OHP in this context, I think we can first just ascertain that the OHP is effective at building the delt. At this point we know that its very effective at stimulating front delt, its somewhat effective at stimulating side delt and not effective at stimulating the rear delt. 4. The question then becomes, what are the disadvantages of the OHP in comparison to other shoulder movements? I can think of a few: - Time investment: you have to set it up (unless you were just doing squats). Will need to do several warm up sets, and since its a compound lift that demands a lot of your body, will also need longer breaks. - Injury risk: Shoulders are for many a sensitive area that can easily get injured. The OHP also puts significant tension on the wrists, and for someone with poor mobility in their wrists, who might already be experiencing wrist pain from benching and squatting, this could be an issue. - Fatigue to stimulus ratio: OHP, in comparison to other shoulder exercises like AD press, front/lateral raises, cable front raises etc, has quite a poor fatigue to stimulus ratio. - Technical demands: All lifts has certain technical demands, however we can all agree that learning to squat properly is harder than learning how to bicep curl properly. The OHP definitely is one of the most technically demanding shoulder movements. 5. We also run into the issue of programming the OHP. Not only does the OHP compete against other shoulder movements, but its also competing with other compound lifts. Lifts like the squat and bench are compound lifts that are staples in most bodybuilding programs today, and they require time and energy to execute. There are arguments to be made about these lifts too, but the point here is that any lifter must balance his physical and mental fatigue - and lets not forget - his time - in the gym. In my personal experience, if you want to have a program that really does cover all bases, you start to run out of time and energy. Cutting out a time and effort demanding compound can do wonders for this. As an example, consider the barbell bench press vs the chest press. With the barbell bench press, we are doing multiple warm up sets, often needing / taking breaks in between warmup sets, until finally doing multiple working sets with long rests in between. We might be hyping ourselves up before sets etc on top of this. Lets say this takes, on average, between 15-35 minutes. Now lets look at the chest press. Hop onto the machine, pick a weight and bang out some reps, then get to working sets, do 12 reps then rest for 2min then go again. Now I'm not saying theres gonna be a 1:1 stimulus relationship here, but it should be obvious that in terms of time and energy investment, the chest press is going to be the more efficient exercise. 6. Then there is perhaps the most oft-repeated argument against the OHP - "you're already getting enough front delt work as it is". I think, however, that this claim is more aimed at front raises or similar additional front delt volume - the person making this claim likely assumes that the person is already doing OHP. 7. So, whats the alternative to OHP? In my opinion, a seated dumbbell AD press, upright rows, lateral raises (dumbbell and/or cable), rear delt flyes / skiers offer more well rounded delt development with less overall time and fatigue investment. If OHP could simply replace these lifts or even some of them, I would probably do OHP. But as it stands, I believe these lifts offer superior growth to the OHP, and are much easier to program in at a lower fatigue, time and risk cost. 8. As touched upon in the video, none of this really matters if a lifter really WANTS to do the OHP. At the end of the day, we're discussing what is optimal given this or that. I like squatting so I squat more than I would advice others to squat. I go to the gym for fun, sometimes I want to feel cool and strong, other times I just want to give it everything I have and really challenge myself. None of that has anything to do with optimally stimulating hypertrophy long term. Any program can and should be flexible and subject to change based on a wide variety of factors. At the end of the day, I think the most important takeaway is to never be dogmatic, and always consider a lift within its context.

[@SuperNiels91]

I agree that OHP is a good movement for delts hypertrophy, but I believe the side delts mostly have a stabilizing role. Although the arm path is similar to a lateral raise, the amount of external rotation puts the front delt in a more advantageous position to pull the arm imo.

[@mcbronsh]

Ohp is great overall builder for beginners. Not just shoulders but global strength. Advanced body builders probably not so much because of limiting factors.

[@derbistheeternal2947]

you spittin right now my boy

[@PerfectNormal]

You’re strong bro

[@controlledsavage6627]

There’s a reason why the best bodybuilders with the best shoulders rarely if any do ohp, it’s because there are better exercises for overall development. If you do chest twice a week you have done more than enough for your front delts. It’s the lateral and rear exercises that give you a 3D delt. The ohp is a great exercise for strength and health but not required for 3D delts where lateral and rear are.