On the Book of Mormon & Hawaiian origins

#maklelan2306

[@jamescutler428]

So good to see that Dan is as honest with his videos about Book of Mormon stories as he is in his videos about Bible stories. Thank you Dan!

[@fnln3011]

I mean, the bible is also considered Mormon canon too.

[@nightman1125]

@@fnln3011true but Mormon doctrine makes more room for Bible inerrancy than it does for Book of Mormon inerrancy

[@Steakfinger]

Honest, but diplomatic.

[@pengweinuo]

@@nightman1125 No, the Introduction to the Book of Mormon itself acknowledges errors in the text. Both texts, the Bible and the Book of Mormon, were written by men, therefore they both have inerrancy.

[@philsphan4414]

@@Steakfingerthey’ve been on a run of excommunication lately and he doesn’t want that.

[@nightman1125]

+1 for Mormon-related content. More please!

[@mrq6270]

So where’s @4everseekingwisdom690? Dan’s talking about Mormon ideas and 4ever doesn’t have anything to say?

[@timothymulholland7905]

A 19th Century history of Ireland also proclaimed that the original inhabitants were lost tribespeople who sailed there from the Middle East. Its seems they were everywhere.

[@Bobjdobbs]

It was a common trope in the 18ty and 19th century.

[@digitaljanus]

Yeah, I once unfortunately encountered a KJV-firster who claimed England was settled by the 10 Lost Tribes and that's why the KJV is the "correct" version of the Bible.

[@Bobjdobbs]

@@digitaljanus When I was Mormon in Ireland, this was an ongoing theory passed around church all the time!

[@toritori5835]

They even have a version of this in Afghanistan, some claiming one of the ethnic people groups (the Pashtuns) have lost tribe ancestry. 🙄

[@meej33]

Here in Spain we have St James coming over to preach. Somehow he managed to come over quickly after the crucifixion, and then return quickly to Jerusalem in time to be executed by Herod Agrippa. Of course, all this happened in Europe, where mass public transportation makes such trips easy.

[@emirmusinovic7375]

Book by Andrew Tobolowski, probably best read for Ten Lost Tribes. Basically a myth from historical point. From ancient literature point, different story. So, our Hawaiian friend, enjoy your life on the beautiful island and don't worry about somebody else's myths.

[@Carblesnarky]

The only group I know we have actual data supporting some connection to the "lost" tribes of Israel are the Samaritan people who still live in the Middle East. Some converted to Islam and others still maintain a unique faith similar to Judaism. There is solid genealogical and DNA data.

[@Chronoplague]

People in chat saying how crazy it is that the ten tribes would be scattered to practically every nation. Mormons at one time or another have claimed this specific guy, Hagoth, and his boat populated the entire Pacific! Even Japan!

[@Bobjdobbs]

As an ExMo, I appreciate you confirming this. I have been gaslit by many younger TBM’s, that the church never taught this, or older TBM’s that this was exclusive to Mormons. I appreciate you!

[@boboak9168]

Does the church actively try to hide their old teachings like Jehovah’s Witnesses do? JWs purge their congregation libraries at the command of the leadership. It’s so much easier to gaslight and be able to claim “We never said that!” when you destroy the evidence.

[@galvinowens2085]

Native Americans have always been here we're our own People.

[@Kyeudo]

@@galvinowens2085 As long as your definition of "always" is "about 30,000 years". We all trace our ancestry back to central Africa.

[@veridicusmaximus6010]

Wait you don't mean literally always? Otherwise, your claim means you guys rose-up from the island itself. That's as goofy as any Mormon 10 tribes claim!

[@Dice_roller]

Exactly. Also Polynesians, too.

[@MrArtist7777]

You have no proof of this. According to archaeological evidence, Native Americans, as far as groups, appeared in the Americas around: 2200-2400 B.C.E. Individual skeletons have been found throughout the U.S., dating older than this but, no groups until the second millennium B.C.E.

[@adamrodger5351]

Well, I mean, Native Americans came over on the land bridge, for the most part (though probably some people did also sail from Polynesia or similar places, too). But that was thousands and thousands of years before any Europeans showed up, so, sure, effectively yeah.

[@fre2725]

It's kind of weird how big this legend got when the book of Kings explicitly says that the captives from Samaria were settled in known locations in Syria. 😑 They're just gone people! They merged with the general population and faded away (though the Samaritans are at least partly descended from them).

[@shanegooding4839]

In 1929 Lazar Borodulin wrote the first Yiddish science fiction novel: On the Other Side of the Sambation. In it a journalist travels to the land of the Red Jews who are descendants of the Lost Tribes and encounters a mad scientist with a ray gun. Modern claims about descendants of the Ten seem to equally lie in the realms of science fiction to me.

[@HisZotness]

King Kamehamehasteinberg?

[@Nymaz]

Funny how the "lost *10* tribes" supposedly ended up as 100s of tribes of wildly geographically diverse peoples. I guess each of those 10 tribes had several subtribes that equally got lost. God really should have included directions on how to build a GPS system in his various holy books... or at the very least put some maps in the supplements. Kidding aside, props to Dan for giving an honest and no-nonsense response on a subject that impacts his personal beliefs.

[@HisZotness]

Gawd™ should have created us with built-in GPS.

[@ChristopherBond-i5f]

No doggies ? 😢 …cool: made up for it with the awesome fit !!! 😊

[@Krall117]

love your stuff Dan

[@garycarter6773]

❤❤❤❤❤ thanks Dan!!!

[@robertgray323]

Dan I love your show but I really struggle with any Mormon beliefs . It just seems way to crazy

[@billcook4768]

I always wonder if the stories in exclusive LDS teachings are more far fetched than those in the old and new testaments, or if it just seems that way since I grew up being taught the old and new testaments, but not the Mormon stuff. To a complete outsider would they seem equally “crazy.”

[@boboak9168]

As opposed to which mainstream religion? Most religious people profess to believe the darndest things!

[@shirkam3657]

I mean... Tritheism, Heavenly Mother, deities in other places of the universe, the whole Bible contradicting all of these, more canonical scriptures, the American-centrism, the universe being eternal, Adam becoming God... Yea, I agree with you, there's no way this can't be weird for any "other" Christian.

[@ChristopherBond-i5f]

@@boboak9168me’thinkest the same: like, Abraham willing to slit his son’s throat…? Some crazy psycho sh*t; and almost humorous the entourage of apologists who are surely there to offer explanation (excuse)…

[@adamrodger5351]

​@@shirkam3657The Bible doesn't contradict any of those, though. Are you new to the channel?

[@gritch66]

Your lovely gaze still warms my day a little bit 😂

[@stephenbelmont1918]

My ancestry is Scandinavian. The LDS church claims they are of Hebrew lost tribe heritage as well. A claim made with no supporting data. People were living in Scandinavia many millenia before Hebrews were recognized as a people. Data over Dogma.

[@MrArtist7777]

The LDS church clearly states that the tribes of Israel were scattered throughout ALL of the world, with remnants throughout the whole world. Anyone who claims to be of pure, or mostly Israelite heritage, are being dishonest and extremely naive.

[@stephenbelmont1918]

​@MrArtist7777 In Thomas L. Thompsons studies published in The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives. The findings are that Old Testament Patriarchs like Abraham, Moses, Noah, etc. are literary figures written during the exilic period. The twelve tribes also literary and not historical figures. If these are literary characters, they can't pass on literal DNA. Which is consistent with the data that there isn't a world wide spread of middle-eastern DNA dating back to the patriarchal narratives that could validate claims that indigenous Americans, Hawaiians, or Northern Europeans are parts of the Lost Tribes of Israel who are literary groupings.

[@adamrodger5351]

I certainly haven't read everything an LDS leader ever said, so I could be wrong, but I've never heard anyone teach this. Perhaps this is getting confused with the doctrine of adoption? LDS theology teaches that all people who make the baptismal covenant are adopted into the House of Israel, and into one of the tribes (some will suggest that it's whichever tribe is most present in your ancestry, others don't bother justifying it that way). Maybe that's what you're referring to?

[@stephenbelmont1918]

​@adamrodger5351 In 2022 President Nelson, and specifically Wendy Nelson gave an address where they claimed that their ancestry as being English and Scandinavian. Then went on to say that they (European peoples) are descendants of the lost tribes of Israel. Not in a figurative adopted sense, but in a lineal heritage. While in Europe today there are many refugees and immigrants that come from the middle east, the actual inhabitants of these European countries were there long, long, long before any comingling of the tribe of Israel could have occured. So, it is only by symbolic adoption that they potentially could be included in the lost tribes, not a historical/literal decendency.

[@Wertbag99]

Feels like we could have a competition for who has the craziest ideas: Mormon vs YEC vs flat earth vs Scientology... Some real contenders but seems a hard choice.

[@stephenbelmont1918]

Dan, thank you for pointing out it was an early 19th century literary attempt to explain people's origins. To any of Dan's critics who claim that he isn't applying the same academic rigor to the BOM, his position here is opposite that of an ancient manuscript translation. He's following data, not dogma.

[@tussk.]

I've never read the book of mormon, but I might give it a try. It sounds hilarious.

[@Kyeudo]

Aron Ra did a years long podcast reading through the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price. Lots of additional information and good humor from the cast.

[@Tmanaz480]

Watch out for the book of Ether. It will definitely put you to sleep.

[@Bobjdobbs]

@@tussk. Mark Twain’s referred to it as chloroform in print. He was not wrong.

[@Kyeudo]

@@Tmanaz480 As an ex-Mormon, I love the Book of Ether. It's the most slam-dunk proof that the book cannot be historical. It is amazing how much care went into making its timeline land in the right ballpark as that of the Bible. That same care allows us today to preclude the Jaredites from being any ancient American civilization, both North and South America.

[@darren-q5z]

@@KyeudoAgreed - Joseph absolutely jumped the shark with the Book of Ether.

[@robertdavidtingstrom118]

When I visited Hawaii last year, I went to the Polynesian Cultural Center. It wasn’t long before we learned that it was a tool of the Mormon Church. All the workers were going to the University just outside of the center. Kinda creepy, cultural appropriation, imho.

[@Charistoph]

Polynesians celebrating their culture is cultural appropriation, and being provided the means to sustain themselves while getting a university education? What an interesting concept.

[@JeshuSavesEndTimeMinistry21C]

2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4 Ironical, Anti God Belief Is Evidence Truth Of The Bible

[@juanausensi499]

Mmmm... I got 11.333333...

[@emalee8366]

I'm curious about the book of Mormon even as a non-religious person. I would love to hear Dan discuss it more often.

[@Charistoph]

Well, a free one is always available, and a digital version is available on the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' website.

[@rkn2800]

The Hawaiian translation of the BOM is the first translation from English & the temple on Oahu is the first to be built outside the US. The Spaulding theory is the only other possible Hawaii connection (there are YT videos on that), but there are doubts about that theory.

[@jamesarnette1394]

Oahu is part of the United states.

[@Bobjdobbs]

@@jamesarnette1394 It was built in 1915. At that time, Hawaii was not a state. As such, the claim that this was the first temple built outside of the U.S. is correct. Hawaii was not made a state until 1959.

[@MrArtist7777]

The author and translator of the gold plates, where we get the Book of Mormon, clearly stated that Native Americans living in the lower Great Lakes region of the U.S., are the remnants of the Book of Mormon people and that the lands of the lower Great Lakes U.S., are the Book of Mormon lands. He repeatedly sent missionaries to areas where he said Lamanites lived, and only sent them to: NY, OH, IN, IL and MO, and never said anything about Central or South America, or the Pacific Islands, as having anything to do with the Book of Mormon, despite what many dishonest people say. The Book of Mormon has NOTHING to do with the people of Central or South America, or Pacific Islands, other than being a book of scripture. The Maya sailed from S.E. Asia and landed on Islands throughout the Pacific and Central America, some 2000 B.C.E., who migrated from India and earlier, Sumer region, where civilization started.

[@nathanolson8971]

You mean the guy who *dictated* the Book of Mormon by putting a magic rock in a hat and then reading words that appeared on the rock in the darkness? Really makes those gold plates seem a little unnecessary when you think about it.

[@darren-q5z]

Bummer that DNA destroys the theory that Native Americans descended from Book of Mormon peoples. Oops!

[@jamesarnette1394]

@@nathanolson8971 don't think about it.

[@Bobjdobbs]

@@MrArtist7777 So you are not LDS, as you are disavowing Brigham Young’s teachings. What branch of Mormonism are you from?

[@torreyintahoe]

I've been reading a lot lately about the books View of the Hebrews, The Late War and the Solomon Spalding manuscripts which all talk about Mediterranean people crossing the Atlantic and coming to the Americas during Biblical times and encountering two groups of people like in the BoM. A lot of people think that an early church leader, Sidney Rigdon is actually the one who wrote the BoM and was known to have a rare copy of the Spalding manuscript.

[@cinnimini404]

Its a pretty rough theory when Joseph Smith met Sidney Rigdon in December 1830, whereas the BOM was published in March 1830.

[@torreyintahoe]

@@cinnimini404 There are signed affidavits from multiple neighbors and community members that Rigdon was visiting Smith at his home years before the publishing of the BoM.

[@Tocktail]

Whoever wrote the Book of Mormon… Joseph Smith.

[@Kyeudo]

Not exclusively. There's likely a good amount of Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdrey in there as well.

[@cinnimini404]

@@Kyeudo How is Sidney Rigdon included in this theory? He didn't meet Joseph Smith until December 1830. The BOM was published in March the same year.

[@Kyeudo]

@@cinnimini404 There's some evidence the two met earlier than that. I'd have to listen back through the Naked Mormonism podcast to get the specific citations.

[@Kyeudo]

@@cinnimini404 I went and found the show notes for episode 14 of Naked Mormonism. Two men gave statements that they saw Sidney Rigdon at Joseph Smith Sr.'s home in 1827. Further, there is a chain of acquaintances running between the men. Joseph Smith Jr. was the third cousin of Oliver Cowdrey and both men's fathers were members of the same divining group. Oliver Cowdrey was good friends with Parley P. Pratt. Parley P. Pratt knew Sidney Rigdon. None of this is a smoking gun to direct involvement, as the witnesses could be lying or mistaken and the acquaintances don't necessarily mean that Joseph Smith Jr. would have had to know of Sidney Rigdon, but it does look suspicious.

[@hrvatskinoahid1048]

Without a Jewish mother they are not lost. They are gone.

[@icollectstories5702]

They definitely haven't kept Kosher!

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

Why would you just assume that a 19th century author was just trying to make a connection with the Polynesian islands, when no such reference is made within the text? That is something the data does not support.

[@Bobjdobbs]

He isn’t assuming. Various LDS leaders made this claim, including Tanner, Young, Romney, etc. As The Book of Mormon is a 19tu century invention, with no historical evidence, one is dependent upon the translation made by those who promulgated and created it.

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

@@Bobjdobbs when you say tanner, young, and Romney who are you referring to? Even if LDS leaders make the claim, if it isn’t taught consistently by church leadership now, that was just an opinion.

[@Bobjdobbs]

@@devinhildebrandt2709 What a load of nonsense. The fact is that this was taught as doctrine. It doesn’t become opinion, just because the church no longer teaches it as doctrine. It simply shows that the Mormon church has no issue changing its doctrine over time. But it was once taught as fact, I.e. doctrine. Brigham Young Marion Romney N. Eldon Tanner There is also Hugh B. Brown, Mark E. Petersen, David O. McKay, Gordon B. Hinckley, Spencer W Kimball, etc.

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

@@Bobjdobbs please provide evidence for your claim that it was doctrinal. Bro, our theology is that something needs to be currently taught for it to be considered doctrinal at all. Substantiate your claim that this was a doctrinal position.

[@Bobjdobbs]

@@devinhildebrandt2709 You lost me at Bro. I am not your bro. And I gave you a list of prophets and apostles who taught this doctrine. And this was taught in official church materials (The Ensign, Church News, Children’s Book of Mormon, the exposition in the older Book of Mormons for investigators, etc.) Since doctrine is defined as beliefs taught by a church, this was doctrine. That Mormons try to redefine this term of obfuscate that they have ever shifting dogma does not change what the word is supposed to mean. For reference to the fact this was taught as doctrine, see Robert E. Parson’s Hagoth and the Polynesians.

[@rickkeith1]

I remember when there was some evidence that a meteorite, possibly from Mars, showed some evidence that Mars may have had life at one time. The Pope said he would welcome Martians into Catholic Church, among others who were also welcome.

[@danschofield5068]

Wouldn’t it be funny if that Martian was more keen to introduce us to his religion?!

[@rickkeith1]

@@danschofield5068 YES!