Are the Season 2 Mythic+ Changes Making Mythic+ EASIER..?

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[@DaveTheeMan-wj2nk]

Always a difficult conversation for sure. (Long message, if you don't read it all, that's ok) on one hand, we can say "Those at the bottom aren't trying" But who is saying that? Usually skilled, veterans of the game. Something becomes easy, once you've learned it well and have experience. But often we forget what it took to get there. But, also we must always concider people are trying, and that the majority of people just aren't good enough. This is very possible . Although, I think it's a mixture. There are certainly people who are lazy, and don't care. But there are certainly people who try but just aren't good. It's always good to understand there are both sides, lest we become bias and unable to see reason. 2 people in the UFC can do the same training, and intensity. yet one wins 50 fights and the other can't win 1. Did the other not work as hard? There is a skill gap which comes from being human, it is natural. If a small percentage is reaching intended goals, and the majority can't? it's a reasonable assumption to say "Because only few are good enough" But then one could say "They aren't trying hard enough" And I think both arguments are true, of course. I think that Blizzard as a company is looking at the numbers, and statistics we don't quite have in the way they do. And they need to make sure people are more broadly able to access the content, while maintaining challenge at a certain level for those skilled enough.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I personally don't believe any significant number of people are trying their absolute best but simply aren't good enough at pressing buttons on their keyboards that they can't do a 10. But I think there is a good example of this coming tomorrow. It seems to me that the video represents far more the reality than the opposite. That most of the "difficulty" is just a general unawareness of the game and the mechanics, and not really related to people trying or being lazy.

[@DaveTheeMan-wj2nk]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I agree that a significant amount of people likely aren't trying their best. As you know, I tend to make points for the little folk. It's unfortunate that there are some who try their best, and still get bashed as not trying their best. But it is expected, and reasonable to think that way. I think allot of them certainly aren't trying their best. And I've always agreed the awareness of the mechanics, as I mentioned on stream could be improved. Allot of casts aren't even that visible outside of a small cast bar that happens quite quickly within a mosh pit of 5-10 enemies with its 2 second cast. I look forward to that example!

[@dirusj4006]

Sub 10s most DPS do not use kicks, CC, or dispell. Not on trash or for affixes... Blizzard can't fix bad

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Yup exactly. Wait until you see tomorrows video...

[@dirusj4006]

​@@heythereguysitsMetro Your other video is exactly what I expected. Simple mechanics can't be followed even on low keys. Arakara is perfect example and they didn't even make it to the last boss which is the real pug killer.

[@Whydyoudothis]

The gulping and swallowing mouth noises really get to me especially in my headphones

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

k

[@Whydyoudothis]

@ would love to watch the videos and hear your take because they seem well founded and informative it’s just not pleasant noises to hear up on a microphone

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@Whydyoudothis well hope you'll be able to get past it. Obviously I can't stop breathing.

[@olddrunkgamer]

speaking only for myself, i've skipped a lot of mythic+ in the expansion so far. i don't know if that will continue in S2, but it's not out of the question. i miss the challenges, i miss the gear rewards, i miss the satisfaction of succeeding. i miss all that. the reason that i've skipped most of mythic+, despite having 2 tanks (horde and alliance), a healer, and some pretty good melee and ranged dps, is the people. if you tank, you can't win. if you heal, it's all your fault. if you're dps, you're automatically an idiot. i don't enjoy my game as much as i used to, but i also don't have to talk myself through toxicity. it's not the dungeons, Metro. it's the people.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya sadly the people make the game far worse than Blizzard ever could.

[@Xanthem420]

💯

[@cvilla1944]

On the two difficulty point: i do feel like we're already there. 12+ is mythic plus plus

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

ya, good way to look at it honestly.

[@JBX5677JB]

I alted a healer for the first time this season and didn't push on it like my main (stopped at all 11's on my MW), but I have had a similar experience to what you mentioned. When I wasn't as geared in 4-7's farming runed crests, those were the hardest and most frustrating keys of the season. Seeing the elitism details! trackers showing 120 million group avoidable damage is extremely painful. The funny thing I noticed about healing is that not once did anyone blame me for anything that went wrong. It was always DPS blaming tanks or tanks blaming DPS.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Haha well that's good that you weren't being blamed at least.

[@alexanderadams9008]

Blizz should give more random rewards for pushing higher keys, more titles, transmogs, mounts, quality of life items, so you have something to strive for other than rank

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I personally disagree with that, just because there is always a lot of people who do nothing but chase the rewards, so you end up with a situation where you have even more motivations all trying to do the same content. That problem is at the heart of the major issues I see in the pug world, so I would go as far as to remove all rewards other than "fun" if it were up to me. But I'm sure blizzard disagrees.

[@Bladefish2696]

You'll only get more people buying score for the rewards this way which results in even more score inflation.

[@deseanroot75]

I think it entirely depends on how many people actually go through the 2-7 keys like Blizz wants. If people try 7-8's from delves again they will get farmed again. Hopefully people actually start at 0 like intended and with the harder scaling on the lower keys it might actually make them have to learn the dungeon mechanics. (Currently keys under like 6 are so easy you really dont have to do most mechanics thus people dont know them going into 7 and higher keys). On paper it should be good but people are unpredictable so we will have to see.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya the people being unpredictable is the big issue for sure.

[@Massive-rat-hypocrite]

You know how you can set a bnet friend? Then no matter what character they are on, you see them in the group finder a different way. I want a bnet enemies list too. I want the ui to show me “enemies in this group”. No matter if they rename or transfer, there is no hiding. I don’t care about the “privacy” concerns. I think this would improve player behavior more than anything. Knowing that you cannot hide like a rat on an alt or by renaming. Let me set someone as an enemy and let me set a brief note why. Then the game ui can point them out in trade chat, group finder, guild apps, etc.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

That's funny. Can probably make an addon for that.

[@Dea7hWarran7]

PBL - Player Black List exists. Idk if it’s even remotely possible to get all the way to linking it to someone’s bnet account name though.

[@senfglas214]

I use global ignore list addon. But it only works on characters, not the account. The whole season I didn’t register even one ignored character. So I‘m not sure if ignoring people is actually worth it, or it already filter them out in the dungeon queue. Hard to tell.

[@kopitarrules]

Yeah as someone who is having a LOT of trouble upgrading tens I totally agree, it's all on me and my lack of experience. All I can do at this point is double down on my Number of runs I am trying to get done and just chop away at it in hopes to get my portals before season 2 hits. Next season will be a much better one for me no doubt about it.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

If you have a key representative of your struggles lemme know. Happy to do a review to help see ways you can improve.

[@kopitarrules]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Yeah it's tough to say. It SEEMS liek a LOT of different things key to key which would indicate just needing reps. I THINK a LOT of it is me standing one pixel inside of a swirlie or ground effect, which season 2 will help with for sure. But some of it felt out of my control too, like instantly accepting a battle rez and getting run over by the poison dispell before I get a chance to move because the healer insta dispells themsleves as soon as they finish casting the battle rez on the last boss of CoT, but part of it is environmental too. For instance my computer chair broke last week. (I'll post the picture in your discord after I finish posting this message for the lols.) I missed a few streams trying to get my old office chair to work but it hurt too much to sit in that thing for any length of time so I broke down and brought my recliner back over to try and stream that way. All the keys I did that stream felt like I was fighting the darkness more than the bosses because the angle was so severe of me looking up at the monitor. So I removed a bunch of the things that the monitor was stacked on and it had an immediate impact. In addition I added two WAs to deal with something that was distracting me. I KNEW that there was SOMETHING missing this season that I had going in DF but couldn't put my finger on it until I was watching/listening to your review of the true difficulty in low m+ yesterday and it was like a light switch went on. I didn't have an interupt tracker anymore but I hadn't remembered removing it. Went to Wago got one went to add it and it was only an update and bam interupt tracker is back, then I noticed that the objectives thing kept popping up even if I closed it (I have a WA to streamline it already which in DF kept the objectives pane closed). Every time a key started or I died the objectives would pop back open. so I grabbed a WA to keep it closed when I am in an instance. Pah-pow. Streamlined UI with better information being displayed. Put it to you this way before yesterday my last 15 keys were 7 completions, 6 Disbands, and 2 upgrades. (All but two of those were 10s.) Yesterday I had 4 upgrades and 2 disbands. It felt like I was just needing more reps and a few really small adjustments, and now we're back on course. Sorry for the novel. But... you know... It's me lol.

[@NeedsMorePants]

As a healer, I can't even pug past 10s, and I'm lucky if pugs can even do 10s. Got a video already heading to your email.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Thanks for the video, I'll check it out!

[@dirteatinggrin]

I just started playing WOW this season. I heal mostly M+ and raid once a week. I am no authority, but I notice a few very prevelant things now that I understand the game better: most players do NOT do the following: use kicks, use defensives, use health pots/abilities, or learn what abilities can be avoided/not stood in. I have health pots on my omnicd profile with defensives because I use them to gauge a players survivability on the fly, and most people will die with all of them off cd.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya that's the kinda stuff that really adds up in terms of difficulty for sure. Eventually you will get to a level where it won't be possible for players to ignore those things though.

[@dirteatinggrin]

@@heythereguysitsMetro That will be nice, when I do. I have a lot to learn to get there though, lol

[@infernomaster2702]

delving into 11s and 12s now, and there is a CLEAR difference in pugs/people NOT using CC/Interrupts/Stuns etc. It's horrific trying to do a key past a 10 without a regular group you play with.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@infernomaster2702 ya I bet it's rough at this point I the season. wowopIO might help!

[@leon03k]

I need to start recording my runs, so many bricks 12 playing with some potato players this late in the season

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@leon03k yes you do!

[@daisy11780]

From my experience in keys 10 and below, I feel like players do not know why their keys are failing. I have seen a lot of “ what is going on” when people are dying and full wipes happen. I would love to see some of those videos submitted, and your comments on what is happening. I don’t think people don’t want to get better. I think they don’t know what’s going wrong to even correct it and I believe you could help with that.

[@daisy11780]

To expand on that, maybe you could help with tips on how to identify the cause.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya, hopefully you saw the video from yesterday. That shows that very clearly.

[@1dasd22Al]

I hate involved trash with tons of mechanics. I hope they shift it all into bosses, just like raids.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ah ya sadly that's just how mythic plus is haha. Eventually you get to a level where every single mechanic matters a ton.

[@BillB-cp4ne]

Asking a mage if he could at least remove a debuff curse that was on him in a GB, his answer : "Don't ask me to do 'YOUR' job healer!" Not gonna lie it took every once to stay in his key after that comment. Everyone wants a timed key but aren't willing to do anything outside of dps to get there. This is the pain of all healers in pugs

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@BillB-cp4ne that's a great one to record and send in for the future!

[@gagetheobald8156]

i feel like the changes may make things easier in the pug side of things as talked about yesterday for pugs but i dont think it will change the lower and high end players

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya sadly I think the lower end is plagued by players who just aren't looking to improve and that's what makes it so hard. I have a video coming tomorrow that shows a key that REALLY demonstrates that clearly.

[@alexanderadams9008]

There is no way to change that, any game has bad players, it is what it is

[@MikeyJ28]

Just from what I’ve experienced, the biggest pain points come around the +7 range with the existence of Delves. It’s a lot of people playing alts for classes or roles they’re inexperienced with combined with skipping progression because they have ilvl. I think there are more alts being played than ever before, which is a good thing but many don’t know how to play their class. Do we require players to complete lower keys before going straight into +8s and +9s? I don’t think I would have felt comfortable tanking an 8 on my alt tank even though he was geared appropriately from delves.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Great point about alts, especially as that becomes more and more accessible. In terms of the final paragraph, sadly that wont help. We have seen PLENTY of examples of people who HAVE done keys many times and still make mistakes that you'd expect no one to make.

[@cabobs2000]

you just can't ever invite based on ilvl. now especially. goes for joining keys too. like you see i group for a +7 and the leader has like 300 score. ya that's his 3rd ever key on that character. probably don't join.

[@janeinarandersen4933]

Low keys by itself is not harder than any higher keys, its all scripted and same shit. But what makes it hard in lower keys, is literally all the bad players that actually do them, and that is their "limit", they make it hard. Is like playing with extra affixes Xalatath? Nah, Pug: ninja pull. Pug: no interrupt. Pug: noideawtfimdoing. Pug: below tank damage. Those are the worst affixes ever. In every key. Every level.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

yup, thats what we are discussing here basically

[@dantedante8837]

guys please send him all your clips of low keys, we are still looking for the best clip of the war within season 1

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

we got a stellar one coming tomorrow, stay tuned!

[@cabobs2000]

sure makes healing easier. when mechs just one shot people. low level City of Threads is frustrating because you heal all the damage of the whole group getting hit with orbs....

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@cabobs2000 ya that's pretty much exactly what I was saying haha

[@nucleartickz]

oh i agree , its mentality. but it is not one person making the dungeons harder, it is a collective mentality whats making low keys harder! what should inspire someone to do m+ is the feeling of being good at it , maybe the objective to be in the top 10 of your class/spec in the server, and for some lucky ones a title. gear its merely a tool to help you get there, it was never meant to be a reward. reward? well maybe a legendary or a mount from raids back in the good ol days like burning crusade. for me today is : gear yes its my tool but screw gear, what im coveting is that delicious keystone legend achieve!!! but for that i must getgud at what i do :p

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@nucleartickz haha ya for sure

[@mohamedalmuhairi324]

10:33 play healer slave tank, and you will know why/what

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

whats your point here?

[@HeIIaAverage]

All I wanted is the place where affixes go away to be much sooner. Not for the sake of difficulty, I just can't stand them. I don't care if they moved all the crap in current 12s down to 8, I just don't want affixes. The overwhelming majority of keys I run in a good season are paid carries, so I'm gonna be in 8 to 10 most of the time.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Gotcha, well I dont think that's on the table, but ya never know haha

[@lyusinator]

M+ can't be easier or harder IT IS an INFINITE PROGRESSION SYSTEM it will always be hard at some point.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@lyusinator this is true and a solid put down to any of those conversations but what they are really saying is will getting vault credit each weak be easier or harder.

[@MrVaeron]

Literally what people dont understand. That said, the additional jump in Health and Damage from 11 to 12 and the scaling that resulted from it keys 13+ was bullshit. But im with you here, now people wont complain at +10 but at +12 or whatever. Its just the nature of the things. And realistically, they should have changed the requirement for the M+ Title to 1% a long time ago. Its close to impossible to purely PUG title nowadays, with way too many premade groups just pushing insane key levels already, often with the help of semi-abuse buffing from Seasonal stuff. And it will be even harder the next Season, with no more Depeleto. If you arent in the first wave of players going higher in the Rankings at the start of the season and maybe not a healer/tank, you are done for. There is almost no way you will make it up there to PUG +16 to get even a shot an Title mid-season. Having Title at 1% would encourage way more people to stick longer to M+, cause that is very well in PUG range every single Season, even close to the end.

[@Xanthem420]

We picked up a 2800 io 630 ilvl dps for a 10 gb who died to swirly mechanics 3 times and got killed by the dragon knockback once on top of that somehow without a single int on the first pull...and when we asked how he got to his gear and io without learning to get out of bad swirlies or los the knockback he got mad at the tank and healer for "not knowing their classes" ??? Its the people in m+....these runs this season 1 definately just SUCK in my opinion but the mechanics n stuff overall are not all that difficult (also imo)...its the people the people the people.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Xanthem420 ya sadly. But if you run into people like that make sure you record the runs and send them in!

[@FeralKobold]

Easier? On a technicality sure. Does it address the core design issues? Nah. Small move in the right direction though

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@FeralKobold what are the "core designs issues" in your eyes?

[@andrewpaige9152]

Players need to improve i can admit i am one them and looking forward to the challenge

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

So glad to hear that!

[@Justin-xo4ko]

Mythic plus too easy. They need to make it harder

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Why's that?

[@lucasbuttenbender]

The truth is that the community is divided into many different kinds of players, and each of these wish for different things from Blizzard for M+. In my opinion they should stop trying to make every level and reward from M+ accessible to everyone, skill should be praised and rewards should be given accordingly. If we look into how raid is handled, the game has pretty clear boundaries and skill requirements, and only a small share of the playerbase will get good gear from it, and a super-tiny share might clear the content and get the items they were looking for, the same can't be said about M+ and its rewards.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Very well said!

[@whippingstar]

Right. Blizzard just needs to commit to WoW being a competitive lobby game. All the unwashed masses can go play Classic. Myth track gear should only go to title-range players. I'm sorry just anyone off the street can get the same stuff as you.

[@haydenbryce2594]

​@@whippingstar Truth. I have come to terms that after quitting raiding I don't deserve all the myth track gear

[@whippingstar]

@ If you can complete a 10, then Blizzard apparently thinks you deserve at least one randomly-selected Myth piece once per week.

[@H41030v3rki110ny0u]

​@@whippingstarunwashed masses is a great word choice (ironically) when referring to non-sweaty players lolol

[@manuelaidos]

then why the hell you put gear in the system if the system its not supposed to do that wtf. IF the system gives gear its for people to get gear and my objective is to get gear and portals nothing more and end of conversation. (And dont come with the stupid theme of competition on m+ because i dont believe in that well in my point of view)

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

You aren't allowed to not believe in it, sorry. The system is CLEARLY a system of progression. There is no way to avoid that. Best you can do is just pay people to handle that part for you.

[@manuelaidos]

@@heythereguysitsMetro sorry ? I played since legion and i didnt care about getting more than +10. I have all the portals since legion and now you come saying a thing i need to believe Hell no

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I'm saying its not possible to not believe it. Its like saying you don't believe in gravity. You can functionally ignore it, but its still there. The system is made on progression, otherwise there wouldn't be key levels and a timer. There is no way to deny this.

[@manuelaidos]

@ but as you said in the video there are two different types of players: the players that want gear and portals and the others that want challenge. I am the one that want to optimize gear and get portals. Or either you accept that there are two different types of players or you dont speak about that on your videos.

[@nucleartickz]

@@manuelaidos umm legion huh.. well ya should have played vanilla or burning crusade then, your access to gear was lower and lower chances to get them. you did actually have to work for it, it was never a reward. you did your heroic for badges and start farming karazhan in order to be able to kill bosses of the next raid. ( notice how i said in order to kill, means to pull your weight for the next harder raid ) it is called progression. guess legion changed all that for you.