OPEN DEBATE! Brian Holdsworth, The Problem of Evil, Protestant Canon, Energies & More! VS. Jay Dyer

#catholic #debate #atheist
Today is another open forum! It's time for atheists, Roman Catholics, Protestants - Lutherans, calvinists, evangelicals, etc., Muslims, pagans and more, to call in and offer their best replies and challenges! Topics include TAG, presupp, metaphysics, epistemology, skepticism, materialism, universals, logos/logoi, ethics, and more!
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[@saint-jiub]

19:22 - atheist-epicurean btfo'd, if god real why bad thing happen? 22:48 - lofton drama, implosion of rome & reasons for converting 34:37 - where do martin luther/protestantism and orthodoxy overlap? 37:55 - EO soteriology? 39:55 - how to critique platonic & pythagorean worldview?/ + 43:43 can you have an energy without an essence? 49:44 - prot: why did Jesus reject the jewish oral tradition by quoting scripture? and Why did he establish an infallible authority if jewish authority was fallible? + Jay asks the prot if Jesus set up a historical church? + prot's jewish canon vs christian canon 1:03:10 - dude eating 1:04:04 - troll 1:05:05 - RC: E/E and filioque discussion + Augustine's metaphysical struggles + do the energies have potency? first vs second act? + aristotle's god cannot become incarnate 1:22:52 - (sarcasm) Why do you need to know the law of identity to tell people about ultimate reality & worldviews? 1:23:46 - Jay's thoughts on dugin 1:24:00 - how can God be timeless and undergo change? 1:26:00 - how can God prevent a murder and also allow one? 1:28:53 - christology discussion: Christ's divinity manifesting in time and space meaning His humanity is infused with uncreated energies? 1:37:00 - christian courting and dating in scripture? 1:40:43 - pray for Zachary 1:44:15 - contraception in EO? 1:45:30 - essence vs person & temporal priority, the apophatic nature of God + 1:47:35 sacred geometry, patterns and archetypes of the world a reflection of God's mind? 1:51:05 - theophanies & God doing different things within time and space? + God transcending the antimonies

[@leogm6725]

My prayers for you, you always come through 🙏

[@kefekefe20]

God bless you, my friend. ☦️

[@reef6826]

For anybody who is concerned about founding a Church, pray. God will find a way for you to attend. Here is my story, I am a 22 year old from New Zealand, there was no Parish close to me, closest was 6 hours drive. I eventually ended up randomly learning Spanish for around 1 year as a hobby, eventually I met this girl on a Language exchange app from Guatemala, now we are married and I live in Guatemala, there is an Orthodox Church about 10 minutes drive from where I live, we just went to the Liturgy today. Its great because the priest speaks English too. Don't give up, if there is not a parish close to you, God will lead you to where there is one.

[@ImNotJoshPotter]

Ever listen to Fr Kosmas from Australia? He said something in one of his talks that really stuck with me, probably a slight misquote, but, "God will give quality teachers to quality students."

[@johnstdm1]

This is entirely how God works. Glory by to Him!

[@bloodieboi5182]

Lol I'm in this position right now. Living in New Zealand in the middle of no where hours away from the nearest Church

[@tynytian]

Dude named Epicurus hops in, does the predictable thing of quoting the standard Epicurean problem of evil that's been refuted a million times, we all collectively roll our eyes

[@michellegardiner1424]

There is so little apostolic zeal and love here. I love Jay in some ways but he can really be a jerk.

[@Cobruh_Commander]

​@@michellegardiner1424Pearls before swine, we don't let shysters slide and continue in their idiocy.

[@living_orthodox]

⁠@@michellegardiner1424if you’re idea of love is the absence of honesty, then perhaps it is you who must evaluate your standards. It’s easy to tell who wants to learn and who wants to slide in their heresies.

[@shawnpatrick1877]

@@michellegardiner1424 It's funny how often the loser resorts to whining about how mean Jay is for daring to refute demonic heresy and false teachings by the enemies of God. Are you an actual adult? You have a silly sense of what it means to be "a jerk." Some things don't deserve any kind of respect, much less some sort of soft, effeminate response. Some of you people would have tried to shame Jesus Christ as a jerk for the way He talked to Pharisees, actually calling them names and saying they were of their father, the Devil. Not to mention that time he made a whip and beat people out of the Temple. But sure. Jay is a meanie poo-poo head because he doesn't suffer trolls.

[@deadalivemaniac]

@@michellegardiner1424I remember how Paul never used sarcasm and conviction on the Corinthians.

[@7.62x63mm]

I can personally attest to the veracity of Jay saying that it will take years for a tradcat to rehab when converting into the Orthodox theology, worldview, and way of life; it does take years, it really has taken me years, and it will take years longer. Rehab is the right mindset to approach this process, I need to convalesce. We are right to leave Romanism, but give it time.

[@parchment543]

lmao doesn't really sound like you have faith in eastern orthodoxy. You should logically understand theology and it should be historically backed by Ecclesiastical Tradition (councils, saints, etc.). If it's not, it's not. There is no change of mindset required, just an honest mind to know what it is truth and is not. And eastern orthodoxy is not true. I could give a list of reasons like palamism violating Nicea 1, dishonest/highly political reinterpretation of councils, allowing secular leaders to influence doctrine by essentially being able to fire and rehire bishops (the Russian "Orthodox Church" did this repeatedly, even during the ussr did they preach that communism and stalin were from God), and so on so forth but just stating these things wont convince you or anyone else of the Catholic Position (that is the Pre-Vatican 2 church, of course). So all I ask is that if you watch Jay Dyer, please give Brother Peter Dimond from Vatican Catholic a chance. Just the videos that involve Eastern Orthodoxy and maybe even the one about Jay himself. I'm not saying you ought to love Br. Peter but it's his arguments I want you orthodox people to listen to. Please for Truth's sake listen to them. If they hold up, convert to the Roman Catholic Church. If they are wrong, please spread the counter arguments so everyone may come to the Truth. Catholic or Orthodox we all have a duty to Truth so please listen to the sedevecantist position from an actual believer as well as their critics as I'm sure you already have. Bless!

[@bad_covfefe]

@@parchment543 Humans are not logic machines. We are emotional beings, and it takes time for our emotions to line up with logic. So no, your first assertion and the foundation of the rest of your comment, is not correct.

[@nox567]

​@@parchment543 "we can all just be honest by being honest" No, doesn't work that way. The secular leaders influencing doctrines is wild seeing as intelligence western agencies fully admit to colluding with the infallible Popes

[@ryankelly5020]

Bookmarking at 52:00 where Jay describes the Orthodox view of normative authority

[@sara.mcmuffin]

Appreciate shout to the 3% Ladies proud to be one of them ❤

[@bljet4388]

Bro only hearted this comment what a simp

[@madmartigan1634]

@@bljet4388 Imagine hearting your bros, eww

[@SeraphimLeo]

4:32 start Happy Birthday Jay!

[@bouboumonkey]

Thank you for popping onto that conversation with Mythvision and Gnostic Informant. I’ve been waiting for those kinda educational exchanges. Keep up the good work please 👍

[@1bonatsos]

Jay this is really important for you to be redundant at times particularly about the essence energy distinction with the Eucharist. We so appreciate you Jay being so patient with us!☦️ 1:20:31

[@ДмитрийГасанов-к6ч]

Thank you,brother Jay☦️♥️

[@Lupen69]

Happy sweet 16 Jay 🎂 My friend sent me this video and said you practically name dropped me with that comment about the 3% sophisticated lady audience. I appreciate the shout-out 🤍

[@jamesbhollingsworth5452]

Woman opens her mouth and Jay immediately rolls his eyes. Lol

[@bouboumonkey]

The Logi/Energy/Platonism discussion beginning at 34:00 is educational and awesome. Thank you👍

[@theodore8178]

Yes it's good read St Maximos' ambiguum 7. Jay does a good job distinguishing between the Logoi or divine ideas in Christianity vs Platonism

[@an3mus]

Happy sweet 16, Top J!

[@harvestcrops3983]

Stream has been done for 2 hours and Time Stamp Chads not visble...has the Seals been broken...I don't feel so good. 😢

[@duckeggcarbonara]

Look again

[@tonybowman9612]

Missed the live S Fantastic! Some great conversations tonight!

[@ChristianHagood]

Wish Gayvin Ortlund would debate Jay

[@brainman67]

Honestly my first debate i watched where he debated trent or matt it was so bad i started changing my mind on sola scriptura

[@jaredalfred965]

​@@brainman67Same here. Protestantism does not have a leg to stand on.

[@brainman67]

@@jaredalfred965 yeah I was taught different and I love dyers explanation of why we don't have to follow the law i find prots are too dismissive of the contextual importance of the OT Sometimes it's like hippie peace and love brah mentality

[@DavidShrewsbury-eu4jw]

This was a banger stream. Unfortunately Austin let me down since the chat was hyping him up. Sad😢

[@George-ur8ow]

Austin from GS? What happened? Did he try calling in?

[@OrthodoxJoker]

The first call in was so funny lol

[@septuigintleman]

shout out to the Epicurean guy, RIP man.

[@OrthoNektarios]

Happy birthday Jay! 🥳

[@Frankierios22]

Happy birthday top jay 🎂🙏🏼

[@markdoughty8780]

A veritable masterpiece on the subject...

[@1234kingconan]

Omg he called me out I’ve been rushing into Orthodox because I’m scared of dying before I get baptized and fully repent and so on and so forth. I know I need to slow down and agree with Jay here.

[@raymondmurillo]

The Mythvision chat was difficult to listen to

[@markmuss1]

Jay, It’s too long of a story to write on here but I am an x-fundamentalist and appreciate your grasp of philosophy, church history and Orthodox theology. If you were to challenge my Christian world view it might help me get out of a serious Christian funk. Would it be possible to have a written discussion with you on some other platform, perhaps even email?

[@odetafecani1614]

Have a chat with him in his livestreams if you can’t get connected. I am Orthodox and I think that will help you

[@littlefishbigmountain]

Subscribe to him and hit the bell, then next time he’s gonna go live and do an open forum like this call in

[@theodore8178]

Reverence for ML? He and the anglicans are closest to us heterodox as they are. I recommend St Paisios of Athos on eschatology. We aren't really focused on end times in the way protestants are. I remember the norse pagan guy. Valhalla for him!

[@goadoaistheman]

Shirt: on point. Mustache: on point.

[@gideondavid30]

Jake no Protestant is arguing that there was no jewish religious authority, the argument is tharmt it wasnt infallible which it most certainly was not. How cannyou bind someone's conscience to a law? You certainty can use state power to bind people but not thier minds. And the normative laws that are binding on the local community are not infallible. Excommunication is indeed a thing and that is th only biblical proscription for those who do not submit to the local church. Even Protestants agree on church authority to make decisions it isjust up to the believer whether he chooses to submit to a particular church on the basis of what the Holy Spirit is telling him.

[@jamesbhollingsworth5452]

Real.

[@MikeMarlowe-ym3zy]

Holy Spirit tells one man to go to this denomination, tells another man to go to that denomination, times 50,000. What mean

[@Kassandra_Troy]

Women for Jay Dyer!

[@dobroslaw_yt]

Happy birthday

[@mikeDeSales943]

Can Jay, or anybody on here please explain to me about Saint Nicholas the second. I am very curious about this. I am a Roman Catholic, but I have become fond of him.

[@theodore8178]

Debate Tovia Singer. Id love to see it. Jewish people rarely publicly attack xtianity like Tovia Singer. Edit: I know our enemies replace Christ with an x. The X is a christogram I embrace it. Use it with pride it takes the insult away. And good grief they handed it to us. Icxc icxc if these people were smart they'd use _tian and _Mass they wouldn't be using holy christograms like x it'd be _

[@thatsriiiiight4170]

'xtianity'...

[@theodore8178]

@thatsriiiiight4170 its used as slur. I embrace it. There's a Christogram there!!!

[@theodore8178]

IC XC NI KA We are Xtians! The X alone is a christogram! Embrace it. ☧☧☧ under this sign: conquer. ☧ ☦️ our enemies did a one up from antioch when they mockingly called us christian. Putting a christogram in a slur! I celebrate Xmas the nativity and the Pascha of the resurrection. Xxxx ttttt ☧

[@theodore8178]

@thatsriiiiight4170 when I read scripture I look at the literal first. Chrysostom and Theophylact are great there. Then the there's the typological meaning Maximos (my patron saint) and St Ephraim are great for typology. I also look at all the Chrisograms in the text...

[@theodore8178]

@thatsriiiiight4170 i know its a slur but i embrace it. ΧΡΙϹΤΟϹ χρῑστός ego eimi ho on He is. Xxxxccc I scour the lxx for christograms and the hebrew for YHVH. There's atleast two named YHVH in the Hebrew.

[@konchar91]

Happy birthday 🎂

[@rolandburchett]

@JayDyer I understand that you don't agree with Roman Catholicism. But are Roman Catholics saved in your opinion. Or you have to be Orthodox to be saved. Thanks

[@RafaelGarcia-jb3me]

Why do you care what he says about your personal salvation?

[@rolandburchett]

@@RafaelGarcia-jb3me To learn what Orthodox Christianity teaches. Hear their side of the story. I dont think there is anything wrong or offensive in the question

[@madmartigan1634]

17:00 - what is the other platform Jay mentioned here? Sounds like he mumbled "Robchan" but that yields no relevant search results.

[@michaelisaiah1]

Rokfin

[@kansquatch]

Sweet matthew McConaughey thumbnail 👍

[@markmuss1]

I sent a message earlier but I have another thought. For starters would you point me to a good video where you take on a person who has a problem with “the God of the Old Testament”?

[@GodIsSalvation1]

1:53:33

[@DavidShrewsbury-eu4jw]

🤨

[@KloneheimBiggums]

its joever

[@Collin_Brooks]

Jay: "You get your canon from the Jews? Then you're a Judaizer!" Paul: "Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God."

[@JayDyer]

That does not mean the Jews determined the canon itself. Basic church history tells you the Church determined it in the 5-6th century.

[@joshua-l6m]

What do you mean the Jews? Plenty of groups and sects of "jews" have nothing to do with Christians, or anything worth adopting- for good reasons.

[@OrthodoxJoker]

The first call in was so funny lol

[@BecomeUncancellable]

anyone got a timestamp?