Optics on Sturmgewehrs: Was This Really A Thing?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE TO WIN! go.getenteredtowin.com/forgottenweapons DEADLINE to ENTER is TONIGHT 05/26/23 @ 11:59pm (PST).

[@captaincrazyhat]

I entered to win! I hope I win I was just in a minor motorcycle accident and feeling kinda crappy and that would really make my day. Plus it’s my favorite small arm of all time.

[@MillenniumStoryteller]

I would love to try but I live in Upstate NY and that PTR 44 would not be legal here. Just look at our legal AR-15s

[@theblackhand6485]

@Ivan: So the US Army comes home after WWII with a bunch of rifles like the Sturm gewehr etc. - Is it so that the Army then dumped all German arms at US manufacturers to let them build a better gun? Or did manufacturers had to subscribe and pay to be in a developers program to design a better rifle? ...and after all this the M16 was the end result?

[@firstnameiii7270]

I doubt this would ship to my state

[@angelogarcia2189]

when do i get my STG 44?

[@reiisthebestgirl]

I love how they practically hose clampped scope to base.

[@jamesalexander7540]

Those are hose clamps that are used to this day.

[@woutergijs5246]

And it did not perform well…

[@richardchapman6340]

My thoughts too , not a good option .

[@NateTheBrewer]

Came here to say: call them what they are, overengineered German hose clamps

[@CobraDBlade]

I have a feeling they did it because it was very cheap and quick to manufacture compared to machining full scope rings.

[@nachoakajrod]

I work in industrial maintenance. If someone came to me with a request for a mount, that’s exactly what I would come up with. I understand it’s not great, but without knowledge of small arms and their accessories, it makes perfect sense. That’s how you attach conduit straps to mount a pipe to a piece of strut.

[@sullivanrachael]

When you consider the ingenious ZF4 scope is formed from a piece of steel box section, and then the ends are formed into tube for the lenses, the structure isn’t as strong as a scope body made from solid stock or bar. The spring steel clamps are thus light, easier to make as they are once again, stamped, and due to the way they wrap around the scope body, even out the clamping stresses. Truly a brilliant way to do it, in a time where pressed steel is the go-to technology for mass production. Note the StG44 isn’t entirely of stamped construction - the milled bolt rides in a heavy milled chassis, which is wrapped in pressed steel to make the receiver. Very strong but heavy, and not so easy to clean, as you can’t get to the locking lug.

[@devin5360]

I initially thought they didn't issue optics with the mp44 was simply due to production and logistical limitations. Very enlightening to hear that they couldn't even hold zero! Thanks for the info

[@TrangleC]

Even without that issue, there were doctrinial (is that a word?) reasons for why they wouldn't put a scope on it. After all, the thing was classified as a SMG at the beginning and when they finally "unlocked" its true potential and developed a tactical doctrine around it in form of the "Sturmzug" ("Assault Platoon"), a scope didn't really fit into what they wanted to do with it. It was all about mobility and close combat.

[@davidschaadt3460]

Sort of like the M-16 and the Remington 700 (M-40?) In Vietnam.For a sniper and The scoped K98 and the MP -44. Great program, Ian.

[@IrishMcScottish]

Last time I was this early, the STG was still known as the MKB-42(H)

[@SoumalyaBarai]

Dude 🤣🤣

[@hayleyxyz]

An actually good "first" comment lol

[@lorenzogiuliani9144]

Mkb42 is SIMILAR stg44

[@firstnameiii7270]

he says this good job

[@robina6645]

Underrated comment

[@MrAstrojensen]

I think one of the major reasons for the extremely poor groupings in burst mode could be that the stamped sheet steel base simply warped from the gun heating up. Spot welding sheet metal is going to introduce a LOT of stress into the thin sheets, which is then amplified in all kinds of interesting ways, when you apply heat to it. Especially as the heat is coming from one side only.

[@sullivanrachael]

Three basic things against putting the ZF4 on the StG in the mount for the G43 is 1) Weight; it becomes a hefty rig. 2) there is a slight offset to the right. 3) the eye relief is a bit too much. That said, it looks extremely cool. I love my BD44 and mount setup very much

[@weirdshibainu]

Weird to think these weapons are almost 80 years old.

[@RichyRacoon]

yes still good today...

[@okaro6595]

80 years before the StG they still used muzzle loaders.

[@jon9021]

@@okaro6595 now that’s a thought!

[@djdrack4681]

and yet...here in the US authoritarians set on stripping you of natural rights (don't let them fool you, they are natural) say that things like a pistol grip, detachable magazine, short barrel, etc are just extremely deadly and should be banned...for your protection, by not allowing you to protect yourself with technology that is 80-100yrs old.

[@Sunflowercowboy]

I mean, we're kinda at a plateau right now and have been for a long time. The first Glocks are over 40 years old and look nearly identical to one made just yesterday. 1.5 stack micro pistols are the most innovation we've seen in over a decade

[@javiersp15]

The Germans were rookies. They only put 1 optic on the weapon. I've put a laser, supressor, drum, foregrip, snake skin, a scope, a magnifier and tears of 11 year olds.

[@ericbergfield6451]

CoD4Life

[@WasLostButNowAmFound]

I misread foregrip. I saw foreskin 😂.

[@hughgordon6435]

Tears of an 11 year old??? School shooter vibes anyone??😮

[@TK-317]

​@@WasLostButNowAmFound the foreskin grip 💀💀💀💀

[@K__a__M__I]

@@TK-317 That's what the Mohel does.

[@skillz7119]

I am seriously curious how attaching a scope can knock this thing down to 11 MOA?! This setup deserves to be filmed with a high speed camera. It would have to look like jello.

[@WhiteRidre]

I think you can replicate it with like a .300 AR with a trashy Chinese scope bobbad on

[@ShaggyPWN]

Look at where the scope is mounted and where the iron sights are mounted, entirely different spots. My assumption is that the whatever piece the scope mount is attached to is simply not stable whereas the mount for the iron sights is. Kinda like the AK. You can attach a scope to the dust cover, sure, but it's an awful idea.

[@Jreb1865]

I would think trying to use a stamped mount probably had much to do with it...

[@darthhodges]

It's not that the gun is mechanically less accurate, it's that the scope's zero was probably wandering between shots even on semi-auto. Whether it's the sheet metal rings or stamped base neither of those things are normal today, for good reason.

[@adamcichon6957]

Ian said, the original test rail was made from stamped sheet metal, it was not a milled solid block like on the replica, that he's showing on the video. Maybe part of the problem was that, the sheet metal rail itself was too much of the "jello", under the forces of the recoil, so the scope shaked so bad it had lost it's zero. Other part of the problem can be the tilting bolt design itself. FN FAL, SVT 38 and 40, SKS... all gas operated semi-auto tilting bolt guns seems to be inherently inprecise shooters, compared to the gas op semi rotating bolt guns.

[@craigcampbell9477]

I just watched "Last Living Knights Cross Holders 2023" by Mark Felton Productions and at 3.56 there is a photo of what appears to be a German soldier in combat with StG44 that appears to have a ZF4 scope on it. So maybe the odd one saw service. It would be interesting to validate the photo.

[@viandengalacticspaceyards5135]

I found only 2 references to scopes on StG's (other than this picture). -One foto of a soldier in ruins/rubble. Legend says Berlin; I can't confirm that, but the picture doesn't look posed. -A mention in the diary of a German sniper; he sees 2 of them in the hands of very young soldiers of an SS sniper unit (the rest having G43). This is a couple of months before the end of the war. My impression is that near the end they handed out the stock of prototypes for lack of anything better.

[@Clash_CT_Rocker69]

The ZG 1229 (ZG - Ziehl Geräte 1229), also known by its code name "Vampir", was an active infrared device that operated in the NIR light spectrum (Near-Infra Red). It was developed by the C.G.Haenel company based on the work of expert Gaertner from 1941 from the Carl Zeiss AG company. Haenel receives an order to make a night sight, compact enough to be used to equip the Sturmgewehr 44 assault rifle with a night sight for the needs of Wehrmacht soldiers during World War II. Such a night vision capability with mass precision hits would undermine the enemy's morale and strengthen their own. Designed and produced in fewer numbers than planned, the "Vampir" night sight was powered by a battery weighing about 15 kg carried on the soldier's back, from which power cables led to the night sight. Any German soldier who received a StG44 and a ZG-1229 Vampire night sight would be given the title "Nachtjäeger". Produced, tested and supplied to the Wehrmacht by the Haenel company, the Vampir was used in small numbers on the Eastern Front. The second device FG 1250 or (Fahr und Zielgerät FG 1250 - driving and aiming device FG 1250) was a German active infrared night device, most often mounted on the Panther's outer ring of the commander's turret on which the machine gun was mounted, and other armored vehicles. to increase visibility at night for the drivers and gunners, most of them were mounted on the PzKpfw Panter Ausf G, where skilled tank aces made great use of it for quick night ambushes. It was developed by Ing Gaertner from the German optical company Carl Zeiss AG in early 1941, and the first prototype was made in 1939! It consisted of a specialized mount, an active infrared reflector and an accompanying image converter. In the later stages of World War II, the bulky FG 1250 active infrared unit was paired not only with Panther tanks, but also with Sd.Kfz 251/1 "Falke" armored half-tracks and half-track machine guns. Most often with MG 42 and MG 34 machine guns.

[@derekp2674]

Thanks - that account tallies well with a collection of photographs inherited from my later father. I think his copies of these photos were copied from originals in formerly classified UK and US reports, made after trials on captured German equipment in 1945. (The well known photo of a British soldier showing off a Vampir equipped MP-44 is included in this set.) The UK also trailed a similar IR scope on silenced STEN guns but those scope never made it into production.

[@brittakriep2938]

A small mistake: Ziel ( not Ziehl).

[@HistoryGameV]

@@derekp2674 The US actually built a number of very similar optics at least partially based on the Vampir system and paired it with the M2 Carbine, resulting in the M3 Carbine which was used quite successful against North Korean and Chinese troops in the Korean War.

[@derekp2674]

@@HistoryGameV I'm afraid you are mistaken sir. The UK and US developments were largely independent of the German work and were technically inferior to the German systems. However 1946 sources seem reluctant to admit that. But the plain fact of the matter is that the German programme had developed more effective materials for infrared electro-optics. Post WW2, these were picked by allied research and used in the development of infrared air to air missiles. At least in the UK, thermal imaging for nightsights was a much lower priority than air defence.

[@dphalanx7465]

First heard about "Vampir" in Stephen Hunter's debut novel _The Master Sniper,_ back in the very early 80's. At the time, I thought "Well, that's a cool premise! 'Course, everyone knows that IR stuff didn't show up until Korea, but if anybody could have 'wonderwaff'ed' it, count on the Germans." Could have pushed me over with a stick when i ran across further references a couple years later and saw actual pictures! Those krauts, they've done it again... 🤔😮🤯

[@miaththered]

The backpack powered night vision comes to mind.

[@RP-ks6ly]

The vampir system was cool.

[@djdrack4681]

any nightvision > no nightvision. just like how a smartphone thermal > no thermal.

[@theblackhand6485]

@Mat's: the battery powered night vision Sturmgewehr was actually a infrared one which operated in the wrong spectrum. Useful but not the best results. But now the Hanomags half track come in mind withe the big infrared lights in it. Oh that said, now the Tigers with similar scopes do too!

[@trolleriffic]

@@theblackhand6485 It was night vision in the way that you have night vision on a video camera or the cheap digital night vision gear you can get. It's just an IR illuminator and an IR sensitive camera (modern digital imaging chips are very IR sensitive which is great if you want to do IR photography) with an IR-pass filter that blocks visible light. It's not thermal imaging or an image intensifier which both have the huge advantage of being entirely passive devices but in the context of being the only people on the battlefield with optics of this type, it can still offer a tremendous advantage. Obviously you'd never use anything like it today - might as well carry a searchlight around and put a neon sign on your back saying "shoot me" because you'd lit up light a christmas tree and visible from miles away.

[@wrekced]

I have seen straps like the ones on that scope mount used as the friction/pressure part of a clutch assembly in small machines. Very interesting to see it used there.

[@thomasm.7058]

I'm always impressed by the knowledge Ian has...

[@beaten_tech]

those scope rings are a style of hose clamp although I've never seen them that small before.

[@KevinBoeckman]

The clamps they used are such an old school German design, I’ve worked on restoring a 1953 Mercedes Benz 300s and you can see those same style “hose clamps” used all over

[@Ruud1911]

Mounted my scope (ZF41 clone) the same way as the ZF 41 (1:40 minute) on the rear sight, shoots very small groups, so the problem was the spot welded mount very close to the bold carrier.

[@hanrau7349]

I would love a video on the night vision system of the Sturmgewehr.

Thx for this Video. Especially because I was just at the Overloon War Museum in the Netherlands last weekend and saw one of these with a scope and thought "Wow, did they really use these? That would have been quite modern in 1944/45"

[@Grasyl]

1:48 Wasn't the ZF-41 originally meant to be a DMR scope? Planed for giving it to the best shot of every squad and only after a shortage of sniper scopes pressed into a sniper role?

[@messmeister92]

That is what Ian said in one of his earlier videos.

[@TheRealRedRooster]

Back in WW2 (and before), there wasn't any such term/differentiation between sniper and DMR, in any military of those days...

[@disketa25]

@@TheRealRedRooster There was, surprisingly, in USSR. PU scope for DMRs (initially designed for AVS/SVT as a shortened and simplified PE), PE scope for all-out bolt action sniper rifles.

[@Grasyl]

@@TheRealRedRooster I know, that's why I said, that the ZF-41 was meant for Squad attached Marksman. The ZF-39 (Zeiss Ziel Vier) was meant for marksman operating alone or in a two man team. The later one was called "Heckenschütze" in German meaning "Hedge Shooter".

[@TheRealRedRooster]

@@Grasyl You don't seem to have read or understand what I wrote. There was no such concept as a "squad attached marksman". Not in the German military, nor in any other country, at that time. And I don't want to go into the etymology of the various terms either, but "Heckenschütze" is not correct in the context,nor your mis-translation of "hedge shooter". Any sniper/DMR until at least the Korean War were rather ad-hoc assigned, single or in 2-3 men teams, at best assign on a company if not battalion level. The Russians were the first that in the 50s developed the concept of a squad level "marksman", followed by the German and French. The USA didn't really get into any organized sniper training and assignment until the Vietnam war was well underway.

[@frankbarnwell____]

Just a good luck and congratulations to the winner of the PTR 44. Beyond excellent channel, Ian. You've answered 1,001+ "Why"s.

[@jtnachos16]

I mean, realistically, the answer to this debate is as simple as 'it's a WW2 era firearm. Outside of explict 'sniper' rifles, scopes were very uncommon, due to expense.' This is especially true for ANYTHING late war Germany. Late war German tech was basically the definition of 'great ideas, no ability to put them into practice'.

[@RamadaArtist]

Considered. Practical. Insightful. This is my assessment of your comment, and I have to ask: what the hell is it doing on KZbin?

[@Heike--]

Video games makes people think every battle rifle is super accurate and long-range. In reality rifles were used in a group to keep enemy soldiers' heads down while another group of soldiers advanced to point blank range where they could not miss.

[@RamadaArtist]

@@Heike-- "Battle rifles" aren't even a real thing, only a modern affectation. No one in 1940 in small arms development was thinking, "can I double tap on center mass, or do I need to reload?" when considering accuracy and functionality. The rift between the sharpshooter discipline and that of the stormtrooper was so wide that designers weren't really considering it until after the war ended.

[@Morrigi192]

@@Heike-- There are definitely quality differences, though. A battered, 1943-manufactured Mosin-Nagant is very likely to be "minute-of-man" as far as accuracy is concerned. A pre-war or early-war K98k is going to be better.

[@Mrgunsngear]

Thanks

[@CobraDBlade]

A 7.92 Kurz G43? So almost like a German SKS? That would have been really interesting.

[@sendnoobsplease]

​@@EasyPeasyLemonSqueezyXDMosin = Kar 98k SVT = G43 AK-47 = MP44 SKS = G43 (8mm kurz) SVT fires 7.62x54 while SKS fire 7.62x39 Same difference as 8mm Mauser and 8mm Kurz

[@DOSFS]

Even in the Cold war, the optic isn't a common accessary for most armies. I doubt ww2 German can actually produce enough number of those optics on their rifle if ever.

[@bravo6959]

@@Elatenlyes it is

[@vladbesedovskyy826]

Well russian army is far from modern so yeah not the best example.

[@LiteralCrimeRave]

​@@Elatenl China is starting to roll out standard issue optics

[@Frille512]

@@Elatenl Standard issue in sweden

[@Frille512]

@@Elatenl That's because many parts of the world are poor shitholes

[@Ulquiorra4163]

So as you pointed out the scope appearing more in games, that got me abit curious. Did the Germans experiment with anything else we'd consider more modern and/or tacticool for the Stg? The best examples that aren't any of the abominations from COD Vanguard is from the often forgotten MoH: Airborne. The Stg you get can get three things to add to it: a modest looking muzzle brake, a magazine clamp, and the ZF4. Are there any examples (written, photographed, or surviving) of an features like these?

[@RealityOrganized]

Ian, as always, great job! Gamers, I’ve been studying firearms since the mid 70s. I’ve been studying WWII since the early 70s. In those days, video games did not lead us astray. If a game inspires a gamer to learn more about a weapon, battle, war, historic era, etc, that’s a wonderful thing. But do not believe something just because it is in a game.

[@TemperedMedia]

Always happy when Ian sets the record straight for gamers

[@mattschm5486]

The sheetmetal pulling down in the v grove works ok ( as long as there’s no jolts) worked with optical setups like that

[@kylemarvin4384]

Forgotten Weapons just keeps getting better.

[@Sandwich13455]

I know little to nothing about weaponry but that's a great looking piece of equipment !

[@tombogan03884]

Keep watching. Ian will educate you 😁

[@Sandwich13455]

@@tombogan03884 thanks for the recommendation

[@RonOhio]

It never ceases to amaze me the convoluted mechanisms people concocted to put optics on rifles in the early days.

[@_D_P_]

I've seen similar clamping bands on pipes and conduit.

[@theophileification]

The scope rail is an option offered by SSD. The decision to make it standard is on PTR's part. I have shot the BD44 and the BD42h which is their repro MkB42H. Both extremely fun but particularly the 42 which is loud as hell and throws the brass like 25m away. Both with and without scope. I found the 44 quite useable with the ZF4. Target acquisition is a bit slow because of the small eyebox and weird eye relief but super easy to stay on target. The ZF41 on the MkB42 looks awesome but is hilariously unuseable. Both grouped barely better than an MP40 at 100m.

[@davidschaadt3460]

People have said that the ZF-4 I is practically unusable on the K-98.

[@theophileification]

@@davidschaadt3460 it is slightly better than iron sight, which are not great on the 98k. See it as a really shitty red dot in a scout configuration

[@peterfleis9306]

Lol​@@theophileification

[@harrisonbergeron9746]

Used clamps like that to hold exhaust systems together on motorbikes, pretty effective at that....

[@inthefade]

As long as you don’t mind the exhaust losing zero.

[@dj1NM3]

I think you meant "hose clamps" rather than "rings" at 06:05 , the Home Despot has a more modern version, p/n 202309380 😉 I would hazard a guess that the stamped sheetmetal receiver of the STG-44 just isn't/wasn't rigid enough to provide any stable place for a scope mount.

[@rollastudent]

But they’re not clamping a hose.

[@dj1NM3]

@@rollastudent Not *being used to* clamp a hose in this instance, but still hose clamps.

[@afs101]

The noise that kept me up last night was the wailing of uncountable wehraboos when they heard the size of that grouping

[@BBC-dq3ki]

I found the picture of grumpy hitler and the mp43s. You can visibly see the distress of the guy making a case for it.

[@ditzydoo4378]

at that time optics on any field level rifle were there to fill the role of the designated marksman at the company level, nothing more.

[@karlbaresic4091]

Thank you, Ian!

[@chocolatemonk]

Thanks from Prescott AZ

[@davidjernigan7576]

With the mount and scope the sheet metal probably flexed and vibrated under recoil. That would explain the loss of zero

[@soerenbo]

SturmgewehrS is not the multiple of Sturmgewehr. In german it would be "Optiken auf SturmgewehrEN", so it would be "Optics on SturmgewehrEN" in the correct form. Just a friendly tip from a german, no hate! :)

[@Bobafett-lc2vx]

I always wondered the distribution percentage of who got more Stg’s. Was it the SS or the army that got more?

[@anttitheinternetguy3213]

​@@psychoaiko666some KZbin videos i Have seen claim that SS was favoured over wehrmacht in terms or equipment And vehicles in The end of The war, And have i wondered if thats True because to My moderately knowledgable ear it sounds a bit off. Hmm

[@Bobafett-lc2vx]

@@anttitheinternetguy3213 Do you have the links to those vids? Would like to check them out still

[@romaliop]

​@@anttitheinternetguy3213 Some particular SS divisions may have been favoured, but most weren't and on average they had it worse.

[@loupiscanis9449]

Thank you , Ian . 🐺

[@ironhead2008]

The long eye relief scope makes way more sense fort this gun.

[@Z1989ahmed]

Ian casually holding an STG with a test mag and an optic “oh this old gun?”

[@MrNicoJac]

6:03 Huh, that's interesting; That connection is exactly how most reeds are clamped on a saxophone! Could the Germans have a war materiele shortage but a small saxophone-making industry? 🤔 Or it could just be a coincide 🙃

[@sherlockholmes5087]

Hellow Ian, In the book ,, Im Auge des Jäger'' from Josef Allerberger, an Austrian Sharpshooter in WW2 says and dokumented that in April/ May 1945 he fight against a group of russian soldiers, and 1 of his comrades used a Sturmgewehr 44 with the mounted Scope, And he say he was verry impressed of the firepower of one soldier with an Handgun! The book is amazing, it is a real nightmare of the true face of the eastern front. He is known in the Bundeswehr an well revived, specialy in the Mountain Fight Brigade ,, Mittenwald'' were he was educatet! And, as sharpshooter he has more than 257 confirmed kills. If you read this book, and saw his pictures of his own camera of the war, it makes something with you, and nothing with good feelings

[@ninoslavtrifunovic7038]

Actually, that book is full of BS, but it was (and still is) common thing when you are writting things about your own ''heroic'' deeds.

[@sherlockholmes5087]

@@ninoslavtrifunovic7038 , Hello, What do you mean with ,,BS''? And Josef Allerberger isnt a hero, He was an soldier with a lot of fight experience, And in my eyes, he is an survivour of this madness war, he wrote a lot of thinks that makes him not heroic, with fear, losses and mistakes. And he was traumatised. I dont know but maby use some Nazi and Neo-Nazi him as an Hero, but in this case it is not fair! And relevant ist his fight with an comrade with Sturmgewehr and ZF4

[@hummingbird9149]

@@ninoslavtrifunovic7038 you're probably saying that because you dont like some of the stuff he writes. Thing is, he experienced it, you didn't.

[@23GreyFox]

Of course he isn't a hero, he fought on the losing side. The title "Hero" is reserved for the victors of war. Otherwise the myth of "We are the good guys" wouldn't work.

[@Error_404_Account_Deleted]

My mat came today. Love it!!!

[@PCMGuns]

That QD, side-rail mount looks like the inspiration for the AK 47 optics mount?

[@schiltronmunitions3820]

Any chance the Kurtz marked optics might have been intended for the Stg-45?

[@311Bob]

Ok Ian, how was the scope and accuracy on your set up? I missed it if already answered this.

[@UncleBaconMan]

So when PSA eventually makes their version of it. It in theory. Will be the first time it ran optics outside of testing. History coming full circle

[@itsconnorstime]

I’ve seen more games with scoped G43s than without. Was the G43 with optics actually useful?

[@anxiousmerchant4129]

well the g43 was intended as dmr, hence the prism rail already forged into the gun.

[@hummingbird9149]

Yes it was. Accuracy was not as good as with bolt action rifles however, which is what some German reports complain about (they wanted a semi auto as accurate as a bolt action = not possible, esp. back then). Actual acceptance std. accuracy of the G43 was 4.8 MOA, where'as it was 5.1 MOA for the M1 Garand. So normal accuracy for a semi auto.

[@MisterKisk]

Guessing the contest isn't available for Canadians. Which makes me sad, because even though I probably can't win the Sturmgewehr, I would like to get the mug. Is there a way to buy it without entering the contest?

[@1982asd]

That magazine is very disappointing haha There is probably blank ammunition in it 3:53 ugly work if the weapon is original, it greatly reduces its value As far as I know, the STG44 already had an infrared sight and the battery for it was the size of a backpack, I don't know about other optics, although I have seen the photo

[@richard743]

Thx for this topic. Keep up good work.

[@selvacin]

So in your opinion, was the scope trial issues an actual rifle issue or an issue with the production of the zf4 scope? As a welded rail seems like it should hold a zero fairly well as a solid attachment point.

[@kevinoliver3083]

The sheet metal used for the Sturmgewehr's receiver thin and prone to flexing. The mounting was rigid enough, the gun it was fixed to wasn't.

[@Self-replicating_whatnot]

Tacticool is a universal constant.

[@zeroy]

How it works for video games is like this: If there is even one picture, one test then its good enough to put in the game. And anyway, a lot of the games also lets you use various scopes on all weapons so historical or mechanical accuracy is never really of great importance :) - oh and how did you not show the modified STG44 from Star Wars for these Snow troopers Ian? :D

[@MonkeyJedi99]

Wait, are you trying to tell me that video games are not a font of historic reality? Next you'll be telling me that World of Tanks and World of Warships make stuff up as well! That's it, I'm only going to play games that show reality from now on. Like Legend of Zelda and Sonic the Hedgehog!

[@zeroy]

@@MonkeyJedi99 some games will go for historical accuracy. Most do not.

[@robertyouart3982]

that's where that style of hose clamp came from

[@eddarling1871]

There is one in a small WWII museum in RI and I looked Thu the optic

[@leileijoker8465]

By looking at the scope rings I knew there's no way it will hold zero.

[@Ajattaro]

How? I'm curious to learn

[@leileijoker8465]

@@Ajattaro the rings are just two pieces of flexible sheet metal and a pair of bolts. It's not a sturdy solution for mounting an aiming device.

[@bruceinoz8002]

@@leileijoker8465 Funny. Those simple straps are probably made from very thin strips of some sort of 'spring' steel. This reduces any tendency to stretch, but may be subject to stress cracking, especially after many decades of tension. In a vaguely competent logistics system, there would be spare parts and the technicians to correctly fit them fairly close at hand. Scope band starting to crack? G-43 lost its entire extractor assembly? The unit armourers are the folks to see. The same basic system of attaching a scope to a mount was successfully used on the post WW2 upgrade of the ZF4. The Hensholdt 'DMR' scope systems developed for the Bundeswehr G1 worked fine. I had a look at one in a friend's collection the other day. Absolutely NOT a 'sniper' scope, but it allows MUCH better target identification, especially in lower light like dawn and dusk.

[@davejob630]

When I was taking that damn flak tower, the scope came in real handy!

[@bigchimptactical]

Thank you for indulging all of my gun nerd ambitions... working toward my FFL and SOT right now. I have some wierd ideas and i need proper licensed to build some of them 😂😂

[@Soldierb0y42]

Maybe someone could answer this, I have a Airsoft stg and want to mount the scope on it, we’re would I get the mounter and how do I mount it on

[@chrisarmstrong8082]

They should have pulled out a massive 1.4x scope like the Steyr AUG, that would have done it

[@philllax1719]

Next you're going to tell me not everyone in ww1 had hellreigals

[@Mart687]

I was a gunner in a reconnaissance platoon. I've shot every weapon we had in that time. Glock 17 gen 3, c7a1 so 5.56 nato with scope, fn fal 7,62 nato with scope, mag 7,62 nato, m2 .50 cal/ 12,7mm nato. So i was wondering what is the caliber of this Stg44. It's 7,92 x 33. Designed for short range. That's interesting cause why would you put a scope on that. Also what caught my attention is the picture at 7:14. He's a right handed guy so left eye is your firing eye but it's closed. That's weird right. I wasn't trained like that. Is this some kind of propaganda picture maybe? It looks staged. 7:57 You can't keep looking through the scope in auto or bursts. Let me get into that. I had a m2 .50 cal mounted on the apc. You can't keep looking through the sights when shooting bursts. So they put tracers in every 5th round to see where your rounds go looking over the gun. Longer distances tracers fly higher then the rest btw. And for operating at night we had a nightvision monocular for the m2. 25.000 euro in today's money maybe for just the scope. With tracer ammo, only type of ammo we had, it's gonna blind you. The nightvision was more like spotting and shoot in this general direction and scope again. It wasn't much use cause of the recoil of the .50cal and the tracer ammo. We used that scope for the OP at night cause it had a huge range. There's a couple of video's about a sniper using a scope for sniping on a m2 in Vietnam. I really doubt this was used or propaganda. The recoil of the m2 is massive. Fairly accurate but it's definitely not a sniper rifle. Edit: there's more stupid mistakes in video games. Handle's on the barrel of a m2. It's for changing barrels after 4 cans. You don't leave it on but they found some pic somewhere with the handle on. You can light a cigarette on a m2 barrel after 400 rounds. 400 x 2C per shot = 800C + outside temp. Been there, done it.

[@Tallus_ap_Mordren]

The 7.92x33 isn’t really short range cartridge, it has similar ballistics to 7.62x39 Soviet and .30-30. It isn’t in the range of .30-06 and 7.63x54R, but it’ll definitely reach out to 200-300m without significant drop. That said, even a low-powered scope is useful for target identification, which is the case here. Your dominant eye is not necessarily the same as your dominant hand. If your dominant eye is your left eye, you would be best advised to shoot long guns from your left shoulder. Some people train around this, and learn to use their non-dominant eye. In some cases, scope mounts are offset to the side of the gun for various reasons (see the M1D). It may be that hte scope mount is far enough over that they can see through it with their opposite eye. The only Vietnam war use of a scoped M2 that I know of was by Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock. AFAIK, it was a one-off, using a Unertl scope (very nice scopes, I have one) on a custom-made mount. The M2 capable of single shots, using the bolt release. With a heavily sandbagged tripod and the T&E mechanism, recoil wouldn’t be that much of an issue. That said, even Gunny Hathcock said it was only really possible because the VC stopped on one of the spots he had already sighted in on, so he knew the dope already.

[@redheadedwomenlover]

Carlos Hathcock held the distance record for 30+ years with a shot from his M2, selector on single rather than FA.

[@leewarren2800]

Next time you see that mall-ninja bellowing on about how the scope mount on top of his AK top cover never loses zero.... keep the results of this test in mind.

[@labouraredangerous]

Its actually a different scope mount for k98, so it's not interchangeable

[@dinsdalemontypiranha4349]

FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO ENTER THE CONTEST: California is using daylight time today (in Arizona, where Ian is, they don't use daylight time, they use standard time all year round).

[@unccred]

Isn't it illegal to have a contest where one has to buy something to get entered? Isn't that why when big companies have a give away they always have a voice line or something in the print at the bottom saying "no purchase necessary"?

[@konopliaska]

So if the original scope performed horribly on original STG, does this replica scope work better on this gun? (As I understood, the STG showed in the video is replica as well)

[@comiketiger]

More good stuff! God bless all here.

[@calvingreene90]

If a soldier had the scope and a STG-44 with a mounting bracket it would make it easy to use the scope for general observation.

[@Lavthefox]

It's history lessons like this that make you truly appreciate modern manufacturing, you can go down to pretty much any Walmart and pick up a dirt cheap scope with three times of magnification that still holds zero.

[@BerndFelsche]

While it could be wobbly optics, the mounting on the Stg leaves much to be desired. It really needs to be closely and rigidly coupled to the barrel. Attached to the trunnion would be good. But that's a lot of changes to the weapon where iron sights are still used on "every" one. And the enemy is at the gates so getting ammunition to the fronts is more important than ferpecting optics.

[@djdrack4681]

@@BerndFelsche remember that 'free floating' and secure optics mounting was still the very newest of cutting edge tech at this time...stuff that barely made it out of the proving grounds.

[@imonit1177]

Towards the end of the war Germany was equipping it's crack units (or whatever was left of them) with what could technically pass as a modern assault rifle, and what could technically pass as a high capacity double stack modern pistol, Hi-Power. Desperation pushed their tech way ahead of it's time. Obviously glad it was not nearly enough to turn the tide in their favor.

[@lordimpaler3899]

A friend of mine has the .22LR version of the STG-44, and he uses an optic mount designed for an MP5, and that works pretty well for that particular rifle. I do understand, however, that that may not work well for a real Sturmgewehr (especially given the difference in recoil)...also its not historically accurate, but do with that information what you will

[@ezpzlemonsquidwardscissorh8161]

Do you have a PP-19 Bizon to do a video on?

[@David_Crayford]

Magazine here seems very short for an automatic rifle used by Stormtroopers, but would make sense in a sniper or DM role, I suppose.

[@ChrisWhite-pd1ej]

I kinda doesn't make sense because out of all the assault rifles I've shot the MP44 ranks as one of the most accurate. When you look at the sights you laugh but I'll be damned if I didn't hit a Gatorade cap at 100' on the 1st shot. After a half an hour of shooting I still couldn't believe how accurate it was. At I had no problem putting a bullet where I wanted every time.

[@adamcichon6957]

Like always, imagination versus reality... yet, it looks mean and cool. This subject makes me curious, if something in a style of the HK G3 claw mount would work better? Or maybe just a classic, simple, steel dove tail top rail with the retaining pin, welded ontop, would made a trick?

[@brianjewell6815]

I have a ZF41/1 scope with a mount #268512. With another number….K98K-Zf 41 on the mount Also….duv And 214 with what looks like a flag over that number. I’ve been told that it was used on a K 98 German rifle (which I’m not too familiar with!) My question is…..what do I have and is it worth anything? My uncle was in Korea in the 50’s and I suspect he got it over there. When he died a few years ago I ended up with the scope. Thanks in advance. Brian

[@leor2830]

Ian, mate,,, I would love to enter your competition,, but,, I live in Australia,,, do I need to say more?

[@olafkroells3440]

Good evening Ian! Normaly i dont coment here your channel, even that i dont miss any of your videos. But, this time, i have to release a comment: You use the plural of the word "Sturmgewehr" in a way that REALLY HURTS a german soldier like me... PLEASE, PLEASE don't pluralize like "Sturmgewehrs", the right way is "STURMGEWEHRE", even in English...😁😂 But anyway, congrats to your channel, i like him SO VERY MUCH!!!

[@hummingbird9149]

Hi Ian, I know there are stills of panzergrenadiers using scoped StG44s in combat, so it would appear they were actually issued. The history on all this is quite incomplete however, so drawing any conclusions as to how many were issued is not really possible, but most likely it wasn't many. As for the accuracy tests, are you sure they were not practical accuracy tests? and not mechanical with a vice.

[@ScottKenny1978]

More than that one photo Ian shows in the video? The one where the soldier is in a perfect, clean uniform?

[@hummingbird9149]

@@ScottKenny1978 yeah, an actual combat photo

[@ScottKenny1978]

@@hummingbird9149 bundesarchiv number, please.

[@redcat9436]

@@hummingbird9149 Hans-Dieter Handrich's 691 page book "Sturmgewehr!" only has the same test trials photo that Ian showed.

[@hummingbird9149]

@@redcat9436 I wish I could link you, but I dont think youtube allows it. I have a still of it used in combat. I'll try posting the link below this post, let me know if it works.

[@VeraTR909]

Basically hose clamps holding it on the mount lol

[@fredtflail]

What aboutbthe FG42? It has a scope in many of the WW2 video games.

[@labouraredangerous]

I have an mp43/1 fitted with a zf41 sharpshooter scope

[@SchwertKruemel]

The one question this video hasn't answered. Does the rail on the reproduction guns actually hold zero or is it as useless as on that trial gun

[@tombogan03884]

Don't ask. It looks cool. Even if the spot welds do look a little sketchy. Put it this way, that's not the one I would have taken to QC. 😄

[@TheRogueWolf]

I have to look askance at anyone who sees something in a video game and thinks "it wouldn't be there if it wasn't real".

[@MG-ll9ov]

In the final battles on german ground, there were some of those used according to the observations of a german soldier which were written down in the book: " im Auge des Jägers".

[@rajbiswas9077]

So it was the first ACOG or ELCAN

[@1111Tactical]

Now review the version of the STG44 with the telescoping stock, MG34 drum mag, 8 inch barrel, and red dot sight. Call of duty vanguard's guns made me physically cringe

[@royshobe6642]

Thanks for making this video

[@cynthiakoehne7004]

It makes sense, because if they mass produce these guns, I suspect they will be used for hunting game, such as whitetail and feral pigs, along the lines as the AK-47 and SKS!