Optimize Gain Structure - Pro Audio

In this video I discuss setting gain structure to optimize the four fundamental goals of avoiding overload, minimizing hiss and noise, avoiding extreme fader and knob positions and achieving fader positions that are visually desirable.
00:00 Intro
00:36 The four challenges of gain structure
01:15 Setup description
02:16 The two level extremes - overload and noise floor
03:11 High gain hiss test
03:55 Sending too low of a signal
04:40 Sending at a higher level to reduce hiss
05:15 Fast setting input gains using clip light
07:23 Setting the output fader
07:45 Dealing with fader issues near the bottom of travel
09:47 Pulse, tone and music settings and differences
11:01 Solving undesirable fader positions
12:10 Dynamic vs continuous signals
12:40 Setting various signal type levels
14:32 setting amp levels early on
15:05 Getting the fader visual look
16:54 Distortion listen and test
18:23 Summary and outro
Music:
Band : Riarosa
Song: Better Than Nothing
Produced by: J.T. O’Neal
Mixed by : Brian Edwards
Mastered: Voyager Mastering
• Riarosa - Better Than ...
/ @riarosa6083
open.spotify.com/track/2GFUih...
riarosaband?igs...
If you like this and other videos I do, please join this channel to get access to more videos, early access to videos as well as to be able to join my weekly zoom chats:
/ @daverat
Also check out:
www.ratsoundsales.com/
ratsound.com/daveswordpress/
www.ratsound.com/
www.soundtools.com

[@dans6379]

It would be great if everyone realized what a gift this is for you to post these videos. Having found you early in my career with the original BB and the great forum (minus the trolls) you are filling the gap in the newer generation that severely lack the original basics of live sound. Please continue to post these videos and hopefully this new generation of engineers will eventually understand how to build a great mix. I (and many non-posting others) really do appreciate all you have done in this business.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Dan!

[@Wasaia]

I agree!

[@DaveRat]

Super appreciated! And the positive comments and knowing that the info helps make this adventure worthwhile. Next step for my channel is to get 100k subscribers so I can get verified!

[@billbradleymusic]

Facts

[@antztudio]

Absolutely agree. Dave is just wonderful and so appreciated.

[@Eduardo1007]

Sometimes I watch a video that makes me think "Is this really available for free?" and this was one of them. A masterclass in under 20 minutes! Thanks!

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Eduardo! Share the love and help me gain some more audio subscribe friends! My goal is 100k audio humans!

[@MorganWrightTHEBRINK]

Brother You are so essential for my live sound exploration. This is like an essential workshop for any engineer.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@ke6gwf]

I am a self-taught church tech director, and I discovered your articles and posts decades ago I guess it is now... (I actually was able to do a directional sub cluster at one church back in the day, inspired by your experiments, but not quite as big and fun as yours! Lol), and you helped me discover so much of the deeper aspects of sound and speakers while I was working to retune the system in a giant church, and then I didn't touch a fader for a decade until I got dragged back in as I am now helping half the churches in a small town with their tech, and then I discovered that you have videos!! So now you are helping me refresh on the basics, while also diving deeper into the weeds, which is particularly helpful since I am just making the transition to digital for the first time, so I actually have the option to compress groups and do the fancy tricks you talk about that I never had the budget to do with outboard gear! Anyway, thank you Dave for sharing your knowledge, because while there are lots of people with lots of videos on all this out there, I have to try to wade through it and try to figure out what is worth listening to, but I know that if you have done it a particular way, it will work, even if I decide it doesn't fit with my operating style, but it's worth trying at least. And, generally I find that when your methods don't match my operating style, it means that I need to improve my operating style as well! ;)

[@DaveRat]

So cool and thank you!!

[@curtisjudd]

Thanks for this, Dave - I remember running into the, "why is this fader sitting way down here," issue early on. I like the idea of visually setting things up so the faders represent what you want to hear with the vocals sitting on top.

[@squidcaps4308]

Remember that your accuracy decreases the lower we go, there are exceptions to every rule. If your fader is below 1/3rd, you may need to do something. It is ok then to turn the gain down and lift the fader. For good workflow, keep these channels separate from the "normalized" channels, pack them at the end of the desk.

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@happydrumstick5371]

@@DaveRat I just saw a video of you doing sound for coachella some years ago. You were talking about your supersub design. Will you ever consider making these supersubs available for purchase? Love your videos man, Im blown away at the amount of expirience you give us

[@DaveRat]

Thank you! Maybe will offer them at some point.

[@Milessongs]

Dave - Thank You SO much for this! It’s rare to find such a comprehensive rundown of these concepts in such clear, simple terms. You’re making the whole world sound better!

[@DaveRat]

thank you Peter!

[@willthethrillguitar4826]

Perfectly said!! Great video, Dave!

[@marcos1689]

This is pure gold! Thank you Dave!

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Marco

[@clicks59]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Dave. Great stuff.

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@angeldiazquiroga6330]

Brutal Dave, thanks for your work !!!

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Angel great to meet ya

[@gregs9584]

just what i needed Dave, cheers

[@DaveRat]

🤙🔥🤙

[@GauLB66]

You explain things very well thank you

[@coryc.7283]

Much appreciated. Thank you for sharing this.

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@lyhe5252]

Very clear description here, helped me a lot - thanks so much!!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@stevemcclanahan3845]

Thanks Dave! Awesome and Easy to understand! Appreciate all the info

[@DaveRat]

👍🎛️👍

[@skougi]

Neat way to isolate just the distortion/clipping. Reminds me of how I first learned to cancel out vocals/instrumentals. Thank you for the video!!! Super easy to follow... and incredibly fascinating watching how you go about doing your thing.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you thank you!

[@Labaris]

Great approach! Genius

[@tosinmacaulay]

Thank you Mr. Dave. This is an excellent video lesson

[@DaveRat]

Thank you John!

[@djtheman9]

Incredible explanation.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Drew!

[@garethplaysdrums]

Awesome video. Really informative 👍

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@1Aquadon]

Very straight forward and easy to understand .. just sent this vid to all my fellow mixer-folk... Thanks Dave!!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and thank you!

[@jamesgarfield9592]

Thank you so much for making these videos, Dave! I hope you’re making some good money from them, because you deserve to be. So very, very well done and helpful!!!

[@DaveRat]

Ha! Not much money but do appreciate the the positive comments!! I did design some shirts for people that like the channel though. daverat.myspreadshop.com Thank you James

[@WorshipShed]

Another Master piece

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@luchotron00]

Thank you so much Dave!

[@DaveRat]

🤙🤙🤙

[@peteolson6093]

Really superb videos Dave - and superb instruction. I'm learning a lot from your demos and it's also enjoyable simply listening to you speak.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Peter!

[@Incoreporation]

As always mr Dave Rat, you are gold 👍Thank you

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and thank you!!

[@Spellitlikeitsounds]

Send hot, turn down late. Beautiful distillation of what needs to happen most of the time.

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@dingerjunkie]

Some of the best sound reinforcement instruction/tutorial I've seen for real-world operation. thank you.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Ken

[@gregoryward4099]

Thank you so much for your videos, I love your approach. Straight and simple. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, and hi from Ireland and France!

[@DaveRat]

Wonderful and what a great combo Ireland in France excellent!

[@piggod1234]

Battle knowledge.Thank you, sir

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙🤙

[@robertmuccino3201]

EXCELLENT videos.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Robert

[@edbarok4619]

Thanks for the gain structure tips. I need this for DJing.

[@robertharker]

Great video. Dave clearly explains setting up gain structure. He demonstrates what he is talking about with demos on his small mixer. He demonstrates coming pitfalls like excessive gain and gain distortion in a fun way.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Robert!!

[@rosspeterson2658]

Love this!

[@DaveRat]

👍🔅👍

[@erocgr00t6]

Excellent training. Thank you so much for a simple explanation that non engineers can learn from.

[@DaveRat]

🤙🤙🤙

[@UOttawaScotty]

Dave, I have been having this issue for years and I have my first festival that I am running sound and lights for this weekend, so I am going to try your method this weekend. Thank you so much for posting these videos, they are the best live sound videos out there by far.

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and let me know how it goes

[@stevenewtube]

I can’t agree more, it’s all about gain structure. A most important subject well worth a video or two..

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@kevinkeils8569]

Thanks Dave, I am new to this, currently working with a few local bands in clubs and some outdoor gigs. Your lessons and tips are amazingly helpful! Thanks again!

[@DaveRat]

Super cool thank you Kevin

[@dastardlydave1455]

Wow Dave, great talk on basic gain/fader setting and the issues you run into doing sound. Thanks. Going to have to find my small mixing board and play around watching the video again. Lol

[@DaveRat]

Cool. let me know how it goes!

[@elzermokoena2427]

Verv informative. Thank you

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@fireandsound]

Nice video. Cool trick with the phase cancellation to listen to the distortion itself :)

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@topa1798]

Thank you Dave

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@wackerburg]

Interesting aspects! Especially the visual perspective which I never thought of. In the end, it's most important to understand what exactly these tools are doing and then one can think about how to make use of this the best way. I really appreciate your calm and knowledgeable way of approaching things. Always open minded, too. Thank you a lot for sharing this with us!

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Hans!!

[@FedericoSala]

They should play your videos in music school! I'm a drummer but the ammount of golden tips on this channel is top notch!

[@djmikelopez]

This is quite possibly the most useful video I’ve ever watched on gain structure!!! I truly cannot thank you enough!!!! Unfortunately my only schooling is the school of hard knocks. Really appreciate this gift!!!

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍 djmikelopez

[@kevinpetit9886]

Great video. 😀👍♥️

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@benharban8545]

I love the sound of an overdriven Behringer pre in the afternoon! Although my face said otherwise, Hahaha...

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@imark7777777]

Fascinating and a different way of looking at this. I kind of started to fall into setting my faders at unity and bringing in enough gain unless I need more gain for some reason in monitors. Apparently this is a similar method to what is used in a tv studio, you set faders at unity and then you can booster or cut on the feeder and easily return to the same spot. Essentially mixing with the gain knobs.

[@66fitton]

Great video! Glad you specified turning down at the crossover/processor. I'm pretty sure I can make some improvements from watching this. I work at a club with an installed system. Definitely have worked it enough to think I need to have a visit with Mr Crosssover lol. Thanks for this one Dave!🤘

[@DaveRat]

🤙🤙🤙

[@Sams911]

as an amateur home musician, I found this AMAZINGLY helpful info... I've been looking for something like this on how to set up my bass guitar pedal board, into my amp and then my effects loop... compressors, pre-amps etc... But this captures the same concepts.

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@nategranger6078]

Great video, thank you! My general approach has been to place faders where I want them and then use gain to adjust volume until it is within the ballpark of what I want. This video lets me take a bit more nuanced approach, thanks!

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@cjtraywick]

Man as a less experienced tech, this is super helpful! Thanks Dave for sharing your knowledge

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Clinton!!

[@russelmurton1561]

My approach to this is to use trim at the channel level before the fader, so the gain level going through my EQ, comp, foldback and aux sends is still optimal, pushing groups down and/or pushing matrix sends down that feed my PA zones. This results in ideal gain strucutre through my channel signal chains, bus and aux signal chains, master bus signal chain and then doing my volume settings for my zones with matrix(Or on the system DSP processor like a Lake LM44, Galaxy Gallileo etc)

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@yaye606]

thanks dude ill try this at the next show.

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍 Yay

[@jesserye2214]

This is such a straightforward, eloquent and practicable way to explain and reason why gain structure is organised how it is. Thanks so much! :)

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Jesse!

[@jesserye2214]

@@DaveRat Of course! :) I did have one question - when you mention at the end of the video re: turning down the input level when using a system processor for the amp, how does that translate when patching straight from a mixer into an active PA system? (Would I just turn down the active PA speakers or would that limit early too)? I'm using some JBL 515XTs which seem to have some kind of limiter built into the onboard amp module. Appreciate your videos and your time!

[@jesserye2214]

Reading, it looks like they have a clipper rather than a limiter. Still learning! :)

[@macronencer]

As a musician (in my fifties) with recent digital experience (Cubase etc.) but very little "real world" analogue or live mixing experience, I want to thank you for explaining this so well. I think I had the basics down but there were so many little subtle things in this video that I was previously unaware of. I've always known enough to understand that audio engineering (especially for live gigs) is as much an art as playing an instrument, and I totally respect engineers for the job they do. 🙏

[@DaveRat]

Thank you thank you!

[@enzoseven]

I have been into audio for over 20 years and I have never seen a move practical and understandable look at gain structure. It's always been a mystery to me because i never knew where to start. Sure set your fader to 0 and raise the gain but i've never seen the gain knob used to lower the signal after setting it. It's away been HOTTEST SIGNAL in period. I do more recording then live but I will take this information and apply it to my next track! This should be at the very beginning of any and every audio course and console manual. Thank you very much for posting.

[@DaveRat]

Big smile and thank you for taking the time to comment. Appreciated and let me know how it works for ya

[@jamesyouens4381]

Dave is the Yamaha sound engineers guidebook in human form.

[@DaveRat]

🔧🔧🔧

[@na4ito]

Thank you, Dave!

[@DaveRat]

👍👍

[@na4ito]

@@DaveRat can I translate your videos into Russian and put them on my channel? I am a live sound engineer from Moscow with a master’s degree in linguistics :)

[@DaveRat]

It would be awesome get the videos translated. And am all good with you linking to the videos. Though I do want to maintain control over the videos so I am not really into having reposted versions outside of my channel.

[@na4ito]

@@DaveRat nice! I am asking because I care about such things. I’ll pm you on IG then when I get the first translation done so we can discuss details. /added/ discuss before posting of course

[@DaveRat]

I can do an auto translate to get the get things closer and then maybe edit and repair the translation. Let me know which video. My email is [e-mail]

[@JRandallS]

Great job, found my answer farther down the page. My question was about gain structuring with VCA/DCA's and you answered it.

[@DaveRat]

Maybe take a look at a video I did about mixing strategy as that will cover the VCA question. As far as adding color, mostly live tends to have too much color and the strive for cleaner, less sound bleed and is the main focus. Then sometimes using inserts, comps or effects to soften is helpful. I would use tube cops punched hard on vox to warm them. Digital can be edgy so adding effects to warm things is not uncommon

[@JRandallS]

@@DaveRat Thanks, and I have looked at that VCA mixing strategy, it is genius level. My mixer didn't let me assign inputs to more than one DCA, but we just ordered an m32c, which allows multiple DCA assigns. We are going to put it through the paces next week after it arrives, with an emphasis on setting it up using your strategy's.

[@DaveRat]

Excellent let me know how it works out

[@cjsickmeier2189]

That moment when you knew you were doing it wrong but then you find out you were doing it REALLY wrong lol. Thank you for the information Dave.

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@innaforcesoundstation6692]

Thanks Dave for Decades of Great info )))🔊🙏🏿🔊((((

[@DaveRat]

Thank you!!!

[@patrikkivekas5261]

Great video! I like to mix my shows with faders all in unity. One thing to keep in mind, though, is running monitors with the FOH-board. Once the gains are set, don't touch 'em. It'll mess up the monitor mixes. Rely on faders only during the show, for FOH purposes.

[@DaveRat]

Also using a Y cable and Y'ing inputs so you have a mains channel and a dedicated monitor channel, on the same console can be useful

[@craigdill6457]

Thanks so much, my daughter works with me and I like ur teaching alot. And to go from chili Pepsi to teaching with behringer, you are a cool dude. Cheers du

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Craig!

[@uriahocean6968]

True Cuckoo's brother....love it.

[@DaveRat]

True Cuckoo is cool

[@traceoflife1234]

I remember the ceiling being a screw drilled into the master channel fader.. Little hack but, you are never getting past that.

[@DaveRat]

That's good stuff!

[@MarcusHutsell]

Hi Dave. I've really been enjoying your videos that I came across a few months ago. This one in particular, because in the past 8 years when I moved over to corporate audio from my previous 10 years in a higher-end, but small, music venue in Austin, TX......I found that the corporate audio humans kept ignoring overall gain structure in favor of a better fader position, which ultimately leads to them almost completely ignoring their input gains......which typically results in their input gains having an average level of around -30 to -40 dbu. And they never touch the amps, they just keep turning their input gains down. It's an uphill battle I'm trying to fight, but I love this video of yours talking about gain structure and how, even though you do, and can, reduce your inputs gains, it should be as a part of the overall gain structure including output levels, turning down the amps if needed, so that you have that balance, and avoid noise and distortion. Great stuff man. I am starting to lose hope on the up-and-coming engineers......but I'll start pointing them to your videos for sure. Because in my previous 10 years from 2004 to 2014 in my high-end venue and working with touring audio personnel, most of the touring guys reinforced what I had learned in school.........overall gain structure, starting with inputs, and balancing with outputs, never limiting oneself on either end of any gain pot/fader, etc......it was only when I started working in corporate audio where I *though a lot of people had more experience that I did, proved to me that they, most often, did not, and don't understand the fundamentals. Anyway, I could rant forever, but I won't. I just love your content, your explanation and testing and showing the results of what you're talking about, and your very peaceful demeanor, keep it up!

[@DaveRat]

Thank you marcua and much appreciated!!

[@RoadJournal]

love It

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@desiandcody]

Amazing stuff. I wonder how many people were taught as I was, that the power amp should more or less be maxed out and everything else works around that. I’ve strayed from that lately as I too like to keep faders and gain settings in a fashion that seems reasonable. The unintended side effect I learned from watching Dave’s videos is that my white noise levels go down with the settings on the power amps. So glad I found these videos. - Cody

[@DaveRat]

Yes, ideally you would not attenuate at the amp but that can be useful to get faders up to a good place if you have too much PA or if the volume levels are fairly low.

[@desiandcody]

@@DaveRat which is precisely the issue I have in one of the rooms I mix in. I was having to work with faders and gain at ridiculously low settings. I ended up attenuating the power amps to about 65 percent and now all my gain staging and fader settings make way more sense.

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@olly6828]

Thanks

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@yanivwein]

dave you are sound philosopher to me // as me being chaotic soundman

[@DaveRat]

Thank you!

[@michael_emm]

As always, great information. I see a lot of people struggle with gain structure and this video is an excellent tool to explain proper gain structure whether your mixing for an album or live band. Maybe you can do a part 2 to this with adding or subtracting eq and maybe a compressor so folks can get an understanding of how the gain structure will change when introducing those elements.

[@DaveRat]

Good idea, will work on an EQ vid

[@FrozenSparky]

I work in a 250cap venue that's got overkill PA (L'acoustics SB18s and KARA) so my LR master fader always ends up under -5 otherwise all my faders are in the low and it's already pretty loud! This video actually made me consider turning down the amps to improve the overall mix signal/noise ratio.

[@DaveRat]

Excellent, let me know how it goes

[@morbidmanmusic]

Well, yeah.

[@DaveRat]

🤙🤙🤙

[@LoVeAmBiEnT]

Dave yes. So glad I found you here. Have you done a video on how to set up your limiters on your subwoofers? After years of doing sound at events where it's all electronic music... You would think I know how... After many many blown 18's, I think it's time to learn how to set them up correctly

[@DaveRat]

That's an interesting topic, I will ponder doing one on that

[@kevinleblanc47]

Daveman, You should talk about doing monitors from front of house and how trim level for monitors signal affects main mix

[@DaveRat]

Oooh, I did mention using y cables or paralleling channels to avoid that in a video

[@johnnymills609]

Thanks Dave is John from Milwaukee the best video I learn a lot watching this video then all of my career and it really helped instant it was a big difference the best video ever thanks Do you have any videos on the correct way of using I need you on the speakers dress wondering thanks

[@boydw1]

My method is mostly the same. I often find that I need a bit more output during the gig than at soundcheck, so I tend to soundcheck with the master set a little below 0db. The only time I've run into a serious issue with gain structure was getting thrown into a "no soundcheck" running mix on a system where the system processor had been set too low, and I had no way to access it (not my gear, and wasn't supposed to be my gig). Ending up having to run the desk right at the edge of (nasty) audible clipping. I'd have happily swapped that scenario for too much processor gain & higher noise floor!

[@DaveRat]

,🤙🔧🤙

[@mvilla36]

Thanks Dave hope to meet you some day

[@DaveRat]

Cool cool, where do ya live!

[@mvilla36]

@@DaveRat REDLANDS CA

[@DaveRat]

Cool cool, that's not too far. I snowboard in big Bear quite a bit

[@mvilla36]

@@DaveRat Yeah I’m not too far from big Bear we always go camping up there and to Oktoberfest I’ve only snowboard once it was really fun PS on a sidenote I’ve been doing audio for over 30 years

[@williamdaniel8666]

How's Hatter?

[@BM-ie8ur]

❤️❤️❤️

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@alcraig1]

send hot, turn down late.!!! Gain structure is not just the mixer, but then entire signal path all the way to the speakers.

[@DaveRat]

🎛🎛🎛🎛🎚🎚🎚

[@kimovangieson1859]

I liked this video a lot. These days I find most of my work in the area of Corporate AV (conferences, galas, etc). I often use the Yamaha CL/QL consoles. I like to drive the front end hard. It's not easy to EQ or compress when the incoming signal is low. Since I'm running the front end hot, I need to trim the output somewhere. The Yamaha consoles allow you to trim the "Output Port". I assume this is between the output fader and the output XLR. This has been convenient if I need to make changes during show. Lately, instead of trimming the output port I've been putting all my output faders on a DCA, which seems to work fine. I'd like to hear your thoughts on both of these methods.

[@secreus5517]

Echoing a sentiment I've seen in some other comments here as well, but as a young audio engineer (19 y/o) hoping to spend a lifetime in this career, these videos have such an immense impact on the education of our generation. Your videos, Dave, as well as stuff I've seen from guys like Dan Worrall and Audio University, you guys are all contributing so much to the democratization of the music industry and really placing power into the hands of small creators. I just want to acknowledge that for really just how important that is. Thank you to all of you who do this for us and future generations. Truly, you guys are great inspirations.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you and it's so cool that I can share info that is appreciated!!

[@superultramega77]

Yes

[@DaveRat]

🤙

[@gregmonforton4103]

Most of the equipment we use now is MUCH less noisy than equipment of old, this gives you a much bigger window of acceptable gain. It definitely comes up on some guitar amps though: if you play you might have to hit the amp hot and turn the master down so we're not listening to amp hum or buzz (amplified by a microphone into the PA).

[@gregmonforton4103]

Always be fearful of turning down your PA amps, especially if you can't access them during a show! If you can't predict the noise of the audience run your faders down in soundcheck and you'll have room to turn it up. If you know it's a sit-down concert and you have too much PA, that's a scenario where you can safely turn the amps down so your faders sit right.

[@DaveRat]

Agreed

[@DaveRat]

Yes and ideally amp or processor levels can be controlled remotely

[@bradpeters4676]

What a great demonstration! I am wondering how you summed the stereo music player to a mono input channel and then created a second, reverse polarity signal?

[@DaveRat]

Ohh, I don't recall, probably just used left or right from the music player into a y cable with a polarity reverse adaptor on one of the y outputs. Or I digitally linked the input to two channels inputs and put a polarity reverse on one of the channels. Either way would work

[@aholder4471]

I think understanding that faders are logarithmic instead of linear is kind of crucial. You get way more control if your have gain staging is right where you can mix with the faders up near 0db. I work on a house PA at a club that is honestly too big for the room (and I think they are trying to make up for poor acoustics and some phase issues with more wattage, which I would rather not do, I'm trying to get in there and really dive deep on setting it up and do some testing and waterfall graphs and what not) The house engineer or someone has taken the output amps and just maxed the gain on them. I'm sure there is a reason for this, I guess they are less likely to clip at the output stage that way because it's almost impossible to get the input high enough to clip the input, but I feel like I would have an easier time if I could just set it up where the signal is coming though the board outputs between -18 or -12 or so at a good level and then just trim the main amps so that it is a comfortable volume in the room, maybe make it so it's just a little louder than I might want usually to give me a little wiggle room with the headroom. Does that make sense? Is there a reason that someone might max out the output amps like that and is that a normal thing? Love you're channel, you are a consummate professional and I love you're teaching style. You seem like the type that is the smartest person in the room, but no one would ever guess. That's what I'm going for myself.

[@DaveRat]

Older non digitally processed amps typically have an attenuator as the level controls for each channel. So turned up to max is actually just not adding resistance in line. Theoretically, with a well designed system and all matched, that is the way to go. That said, if there is too much pa for the room or the show volume is lower than the capabilities of the amps and speakers, then the console metering and faders can be sitting at low positions. Turning down the amps or reducing post console gain can help get the console output fader up closer to the 0 setting

[@RoyRoy-mk6mm]

Thank you Dave for this informative video I have learnt so much especially about hiss ..I have an approach that I need your opinion on what do you think about first setting the gains then put the fader around 0 and if it’s too loud route the signal to a subgroup and turn it down there then send it to the master bus which sits at zero ..would any issues arise there

[@DaveRat]

That works, trimming out the master gain by routing through a matrix or group is useful.

[@matthewcselby]

Thank you Dave - I always learn so much from your videos! Would you be able to share some thoughts on wireless gear and optimizing gain structure? There's an extra gain stage involved there and I'd love to hear your perspective on if we should treat these sources the same as others down the line or if wireless sources should be handled differently. In the same mindset of gain-staging for wireless, do you have any advice on really dynamic presenters? People using headset-style microphones that literally have a 20-30db+ range. Should they be treated the same as other highly dynamic sources like a snare or do you have other advice?

[@DaveRat]

Have you watched any of the videos I have done on wireless in ears and such? I must have done 15 to 20 vids on the subject both on the public side and even more on the member side

[@matthewcselby]

@@DaveRat Thanks - I'll check them out!

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@samsonstrike]

Hi Dave! THX for Your Input! ^looking thru your vids still..^ -could you define some tasks in your future vids: - hum: how to connect Mains: Stage and FOH / ev to Lightgear // >10kW - why there could be hum even with groundlift and DI Boxes. ... Multicore vs Direct to mic on stage // Impedance -hearing cables ... THX Sir!

[@DaveRat]

Will ponder those topics

[@daveschutt1]

Very good video and really explained well. The only thing I got confused about is near the end about "not turning down the amp" if at unity the PA is too loud for the event. So I am using a Soundcraft ui24r and powered PA speakers. I read through comments and want to verify what I think you told someone. If the PA is too loud you are suggesting using for example the Compressor for the Main mix and adjust the db's down there until you get the level that is pleasing for the FOH vs turning the actual powered speakers down. Is that correct?

[@DaveRat]

The goal it to have the meters on the console hitting nominal (0 db on analog and -18 on digital) when the pa volume is at the desired listening level. If the meters read lower levels and you reach the volume levels you desire, then adjust the speaker/amp levels down and turn up the console. This will reduce noise and get your metering at the right levels.

[@mrdikasun]

Hey @Dave Rat , Along side the theme of this video, can you show best practices for creating a "board mix" for recording? It can be hard to get a decent level on AUX sends that feed some recorder that is backstage out of sight or control. I have many clients that do not understand the difference between mixing for a room and mixing for a record feed. Not sure there is a really good answer for that, but how have you dealt with it in the past? I am speaking mostly from corporate work. It is especially frustrating when a band is involved. The mix will be spot on in the room, but obviously sounds thin in the records because the client does not understand the concept of stage/room volume.

[@DaveRat]

That's a tough one. Ideally a seperate person mixes the recording. That said, if a good vs sounds good in the room and you can mix the band to sound like a good vs, then the recording should be good as well.

[@ara5823]

Perfectly explain reason why are you turn your favourite zero first and then getting up afterwards thanks, Dave

[@peteyj57]

Thanks for this explanation. One question: would you ever use busses/subgroups between the input and output to adjust your gain? You could gain up each input to where it’s happy and then buss each signal to the output through a subgroup that is basically for volume control. Any benefits/pitfalls to this method?

[@DaveRat]

I would not us a subgroup just as a gain or atten. I would use the as a way to improve control over the mix and I would want the buss or group fader to be in a good spot as well

[@kennethcameron3478]

Nice Rat,, Love the topic.. it all starts with Gain.

[@DaveRat]

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[@bunchofkeys]

I like my faders at 0 with my bands, so its a balanced. Go from there with balancing from song to song. Just my FX sends are pretty low so far. ;)

[@DaveRat]

Sometimes effects have input sensitivity switches that can be set to lower sensitivity.

[@MarcusHutsell]

Hi Dave. Could you possibly post the pulse-generator device you are using to simulate the kick drum?

[@DaveRat]

Hmm, that SCV phase tester unit was discontinued many years ago

[@MarcusHutsell]

@@DaveRat aaawwwwwww........dang. Thank you Dave.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@BigDaddyCool247]

This might be a silly question. But I play vintage drum machines and synths. A lot of these instruments have a Hi output and a Low output. Is there anything from a gain stage perspective that I should consider when choosing the output? Love the videos!

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, the high output I am guessing is line level or instrument level and the low out is either instrument level or mic level. So the high out would be to run directly into an amplifier or a line level on a mixing board. The low level would be for running into a microphone input. Either way, use the output that puts the gain knob of whatever you are running it into as close to the 12 to 3 o'clock position.

[@Godron1960]

I would expect that the signal to noise ratio would get worse as the signal level drops. Turning up the low level signal in order to hear it means turning up the noise as well. I can't help but think at least some of the audible difference is the added noise.

[@DaveRat]

Agreed, the battle between high gains and overload and low gains and noise is a balance. One way to look at it is to use as little gain as possible as long as the noise floor is all good. Unless you want the sound of desirable overload. What I tend to see and hear engineers doing more often than not is running too much gain and hearing negative sounds of gain distortion while the noise floor is a non issue.

[@elieberdy6581]

Hi Dave- I really appreciate this information as I am always learning how to best handle situations. I have a question: How do you manage this concept you are explaining by lowering the power amps in a situation that you have already set up your PA for a band scenario and the band usually only give you a few min for a line check at best, and your speakers are already in mounted in the air and they are powered speakers (ie you would need to lower the speakers which is not doable), I do run everything through a DBX PA2 processor to "tune the room" . Would you recommend adjusting the output from the DBX box and running the speakers a little louder than anticipated and turning it down from the DBX application? I have come across that the singer is clipping about 50% of the time some of which is due to poor mic handling, and the rest I am trying to compete with a full live wedding band with live drums, horns, and electric guitars etc. Any Advice or recommendations are greatly appreciated. I am a studio engineer who transitioned to doing some live sound. Warmest Wishes, Cheers.

[@DaveRat]

Yes, use a system processor or a compressor after the console to add or reduce gain. Adding post console gain to get your meters lower or reducing gain post console to get your meters higher is the way.

[@elieberdy6581]

@@DaveRat thanks so much Dave. I really appreciate your expert advice.

[@DaveRat]

👍👍

[@johnhoganson94]

Hi there! I know some who would argue with you saying that you are mixing with the gain. I never saw the issue with it unless you get too low or too hot. My question is about using a mix bus to burn dBs. Have you used this practice to increase resolution in your faders? What’s your opinion on that? Too much latency? Too many places to have an issue in the chain? What are your thoughts?

[@DaveRat]

Set your input gains and post console gain so your faders are optimally located and noise is minimized Fader position or levels has no impact on latency

[@sevenmileridgeband]

If I applied this gain structure plan to a simple recording rig where I'm trying to capture a stereo mix, would the "adjust the amp level after the console" part of the gain structure apply to the input level on the stereo audio interface I use?

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, depends. What you want is gains somewhere in a reasonable range between hiss and overload, fader in desirable positions, output metering in the -16 to +4 analog or -20 to -4 digital or so throughout the signal chain. So assuming all is in line and the level is too hot to the recorder, reduce the input to the recorder to March the desired level. Also, if there are input sensitivity switches, they should be used to achieve correct metering and avoid knobs and faders too high or low

[@sevenmileridgeband]

@@DaveRat thank you!

[@DaveRat]

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