Orchestration Question 8: Marking Bowings

Should you add downbow and upbow marks to your score? No - but you should shape your score for the motion of the bow, and here's how.
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[@nibblrrr7124]

0:00 Title 0:13 *Should I mark the bowings myself in my string parts?* 0:31 Responsibility of the Concert Master 1:34 Submit on time. 2:07 *Exceptions* 3:17 MOOOC Term 1 Lesson 1 3:54 *Scoring for Optimum Bowing* 4:10 Natural Up & Down 5:06 Emphasis: Position & Strength 6:24 Melisma: Expressive Arc of the Overall Phrase 7:11 Outro 7:22 Patrons & Credits

[@ErnestoComposer]

This is incredibly helpful. Thank you for the consistent quality content

[@brucewayne-cave]

Best explanation I have ever heard.

[@composerdoh]

I've never played a Brahms symphony myself, but if memory serves when I studied his scores Brahms has huge slurs in string parts that are clearly more like piano slurs/phrase markings. Assuming my memory is accurate and also that the scores I read were accurate to the autograph, I remember thinking at the time of studying those scores that pros must decide how to break up those huge slurs and more or less not see them as bow markings but as phrase markings. I don't know if that's true- anyone feel free to respond and enlighten me.

[@alfsipa]

great video!

[@prototypeinheritance515]

this is very informative to watch, even as a (amateur) violinist

[@chris-wild]

It’s often better for an experienced conductor to choose bowings for the strings, as these decisions are intricately related to a desired interpretation. Plus, if you leave it up to the musicians they will make decisions that contradict one another (eg. Violins contrasting with Celli). Plus, low strings and high strings have different techniques that a violinist concertmaster may fail to understand.

[@Qermaq]

When I've conducted I've generally let the concertmaster go at it but I get to see them and ok them. Frankly, the concertmaster is more of an expert on the string section players than I am, and yes, sometimes other aspects of the orchestration mean what looks obvious from the string parts alone isn't what's needed, that is exceedingly rare. The conductor of a full orchestra has a full enough dance card already! I agree with you if it is a string ensemble with no or few winds/perc. and for student orchestras, though.

[@mafuaqua]

compact and concise, bravo!

[@ZacPB189]

I'm so mad that it took me a week to realize that the Partita's Prelude is also used in BWV 29 (Wir danken dir, Gott, wir danken dir), often played by organists...and one I enjoy listening to....

[@JonFrumTheFirst]

More than once on KZbin I've seen violin bows going in different directions when everyone is playing together rhythmically. The players nearest the first violinist always seem to work with him, but towards the back a couple will be zigging when he zags.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

That might possibly have to do with divisi scoring, or with the second violin or viola seating overlapping the firsts toward the rear.

[@Qermaq]

Agreed on leaving unessential bowings out, but there is an exception - if you are writing for a middle or high school string ensemble, mark every bowing. Of course, if you are writing music for this level, you're likely very experienced with string technique and are keeping pedagogy in mind as the reason for doing the work, so there's that. High school level concert music is an iffy area, as part of the student's training ought to include doing it the way the pros do, but if you are submitting to publishers be sure you know what they want out of you. If they want all parts bowed, and you're not experienced enough to do it yourself, call a good violinist who owes you money and have them take care of it in collaboration with you.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Also if the score is going to be part of a touring show, in which a different orchestra might be engaged briefly in different cities - then it's essential to have bowed parts. Yes, there are exceptions, but the rule is incredibly important because of so much confusion and anxiety about this from developing orchestrators, which can often lead to a lot more unnecessary overhelpfulness than otherwise.

[@fjazz]

"How to mark articulations for strings?"

[@peteryang]

Great commentary on considerations for composers when notating slurs for strings in regards to lyricism and technicality. Of course, the idiomatic reasons for slurring a certain passage for strings do not apply for our wind and brass friends. I've noticed some composers will have a legato section and will be slurred differently across the sections. Do you have any thoughts about commentary on that?

[@Rombik97]

In the end it's about what you're trying to accomplish soundwise: the same effect of a long legato with the oboes can't be achieved by using a very long slur in the violins, whereas breaking it down into a few slurs (and assuming the musicians will know not to slam an accent there) will attain the same colour, especially when doubling as you mentioned.

[@TomKilworth]

Thomas, would your verdict differ for film scenarios? Most of my orchestration work is for film/TV/videogame sessions where "on time" usually means that the music is ready in time for the downbeat. Players are also not hired to go through music beforehand and we will at times allocate just 10-15 minutes for a piece of music.

[@macleadg]

The practical reality is that the concertmaster and principals in each string section are going to mark things as they see fit, often making changes at the last minute. Not saying this is good or bad; just that it will happen, so I’m not sure a composer can really expect their markings will be honored.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Pretty much what I say in the video, except in unusual circumstances (which still have to make sense to the player to be honoured).

[@wesleyprado2432]

OBRIGADOOOOOOOOOOOOO NÓS BRASILEIROS AGRADECEMOS

[@OrchestrationOnline]

De nada!

[@midifromhell]

If you play a wind instrument can you transfer some of your slurring experience to the strings? Like how the first note in a slur is going to be tounged and thus has a bit of an emphasis.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

There are differences in both articulation and especially slurring. Score-read Classic and Romantic scores. You'll see very long slurs over wind phrases doubling string melodies that are divided into shorter slurs because of bowing. Certain attacks may be different as well, with an accent in strings but none in brass in winds because they don't need the extra edge. But every situation is different so you need to do some research.

[@ClassicalPower]

Which piece is played in the end?

[@sashakindel3600]

I notice the example of an overmarked part shown at 2:00 is from Mahler's 9th. Would you say this is one case where even he wasn't justified in breaking the advice of this video?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Hi Alex - that isn't an example of an over-marked part, just a marked part I used as a background and example of markings.

[@daviddebonomalta]

Hi Thomas, I have a question about slurs over downbeats. As you mentioned at 4:19, Bach slurs into the second beat of the bar (a weakbeat). At 6:56, you suggest to avoid slurring into a downbeat. How about the third beat in 4/4 since it's medium strength? If the slurring into a downbeat is for comedic or other similar reasons, could we use them? Or is there a "golden rule" around never slurring into the downbeat? I'm just starting out with orchestration but I imagine someone like Stravinsky would happily but slurs through downbeats any day of the week. Cheers!

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Obviously there are exceptions, but I think I've laid out the reasons to avoid. So avoid them, especially if you want any kind of stress or melodic emphasis on the downbeat.

[@matteor.7439]

Hello, what is the piece at 3:05?

[@Woodcut60]

Antonín Dvorák, Symphony no. 8, second movement.

[@brunocoliveira89]

And in a film scoring situation where all is sight read?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I'm sorry, but disrespecting fellow living composers, whatever their shortcomings, is not part of my community's content. This includes both the Orchestration Online Facebook group and the KZbin channel. Please reserve such comments for someone else's KZbin videos.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Very funny. If you don't want to take what I'm providing here seriously, you don't have to participate. And if you yourself are a composer, you have much better things to do than engage in snark. And I have much better things to do than remind people to behave professionally and collegially.

[@daviddebonomalta]

I think this is a legitimate question. I don't know the practices in the film music industry(though I wish to change this in the future), but do studio orchestras receive their music well in advance? If so, do they have rehearsals before recording sessions to settle these sorts of things? If not, I doubt that they would have the time on the day(s) of recording to settle bowings. Thomas, or someone else, enlighten me please? :)

[@johnnmusic]

the film scoring world seems to play everything they can close to the vest, so the mystery around a lot of these technical details can get frustrating pretty quickly. Perhaps you can reach out to session players on some social media source and just flat out ask? Most ppl are willing to share insight.

[@thegoodgeneral]

String players in score recording setups do not always bow together. Occasionally composers write specific bowings to have an intended effect, and sometimes conductors will ask that string players bow a passage a particular way. But otherwise watch any video of recording the score to an action scene and you'll see the bowings are all over the place. Might be one of those things that contributes to that Hollywood sound.

[@fusiontricycle6605]

What are those bass clefs?!

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Which bass clefs? Time index?

[@fusiontricycle6605]

On the score at the very beginning and various other parts of the video.

[@fusiontricycle6605]

Like 3:07

[@hugobouma]

@@fusiontricycle6605 I know this comment is 2 years old but still: it's the stylized version used by the English publisher Novello. Very recognizable but it really doesn't mean anything other than a regular F clef.

[@sharkprisoner1909]

@@fusiontricycle6605 those are F clefs

[@juliansantillana8645]

Honestamente quiero su conocimiento en la música pero no tengo dinero

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Todos mis videos públicos se pueden ver gratis.

[@juliansantillana8645]

@@OrchestrationOnline gracias por tu sencillez y dedicación mark, mereces tener éxito por brindar el milagro de la música a muchas personas alrededor del mundo

[@djfull4442]

I totally disagree. If bow markings "annoy the copyist", it's the copyist who should quit his/her job. If the concertmaster feels "disrespected" by extra info, it's his/her who should learn to analyze, understand and not be annoyed by the clash of his habits and the composer's unique intentions. Meanwhile avoiding the markings risks making small performance errors which accumulate and make the piece sound entirely different. It's just disrespectful to the audience, and to the music itself, so it's much worse than breaking someone's ego. Just place those markings when you feel like they make vital aural difference.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

"Just place those markings when you feel like they make vital aural difference." That's exactly what I mean. But not with abandon, and especially not if you don't know what you're doing. And not in a way that defends the markings, because no matter how great you may think you are marking bowings, the concertmaster will do them over anyway.

[@djfull4442]

So it sounds like the only perfect solution is to become a composer and a concertmaster in one person :)

[@padraicfanning7055]

Many times, the composer is also the copyist.