WRITING FOR VIOLIN & CELLO: Beginner-Intermediate Advice for Arranging Strings and Orchestration

[@jeduardolopezo]

I´m still working on 15... 😢😅 Loving all your series of videos! :)

[@RyanLeach]

Haha, you'll get there someday. But I do think you have an advantage over most of us when it comes to string writing!

[@TiagoNugentComposer]

Number 17 - Especially for viola!!!! As a violist, I LOVE playing on the C string, it just resonates so nicely and sounds delicious and chocolatey! Not enough people give us melody on the C string!

[@simondanielssonmusic]

At the music school I'm currently attending, my classical composition teacher has often referenced your videos when we're being taught arrangement for orchestra and chamber ensembles. Your videos are a GREAT learning source - everything is explained in a way that is easy to understand and to absorb.

[@Biditchoun]

As a violist. Please remember we exist and apply tip 11. Thanks in advance :D More on tip 19 : write the dynamics also according to what you are writing for. A mp or mf in an orchestra will sound the same for sure, but you will get a subtle difference in a quartet, and in a solo you will definitely hear it. However, in relation to tip 20, it is usually best to write f/p/mf with cresc/dim/subito, that makes things extremely clear. The style in which you are writing will also influence the way the dynamics are played, a piano crescendo will not be the same in Mahler or Debussy at all. More on tip 26 : Doing several takes on the same instrument will also work fine, we are completely unable to reproduce the exact same sound each time. I'd also argue having multiple musicians is more important than having multiple instruments, but usually if you have multiple musicians you also have t least the same amount of instruments, so that doesn't really apply.

[@citizenworld8094]

In Europe, players are not happy about doing overdubs - they don't like being used so as to have other players unemployed. Is it the same where you are?

[@Biditchoun]

I am in Europe, and y that is true for sure. But I mean if you're tight financially it is a solution.

[@SpadeOfAces55]

Yeah, as a viola/tenor violin/upright bass player, the title pained me.

[@wf6190]

I’ve been arranging strings for more than 20 years. Every tip you made is on point and they absolutely cover the quintessentials of string arrangement. Bravo!

[@mr88cet]

Really excellent tips! Thanks. A lot of these tips can be summarized thus: The art of orchestration is not just about choosing the right pitches and timbres; it’s also about imagining yourself playing each instrument/part! Thus, I couldn’t agree more with tip #23: * Rent out various instruments each for a few months, * Find a teacher, * Tell the teacher, “I’m not trying to become a great player on this instrument; I just want to spend a few months getting a basic sense of what playing this instrument entails. Teach me!” I’ve done this myself and learned *_a lot_* from the experience, especially about brasses.

[@maniamuse1319]

No. 8 is pretty important I would say. A good example where a composer is really pushing the limits of playability is the fast violin 1 part from John Williams - Hedwig's Theme from Harry Potter (from 0:37 of the track). The runs and arpeggios at first glance look like they should be playable but are actually really annoying to play with all the changing chromatic notes, alternating scale and arpeggio patterns especially considering the tempo of the piece. It just does not fit under the fingers no matter what fingering you use. John Williams or whoever orchestrated it probably thought 'yes I can play this on a keyboard, should be fine for those agile violinists'. I suspect the original recording session either took more time than intended if those parts were given out to sightread or was layered with some string samples (or maybe both). Yes it is intended as an effect to elaborate on the melody but a professional violinist is going to want to be able all of the notes perfectly and is going to get annoyed if the part is awkward or requires a lot of practice in advance. For a classical pop/film music concert with 20 different pieces a professional orchestra might be lucky to play through a piece twice in rehearsal. For an amateur orchestra it is just one of those pure panic moments and inevitably ends up sounding like a mess. Wagner was pretty good at writing annoying violin parts. The violin 1 part in Ride of the Valkyries is pretty much a study in runs and arpeggios (admittedly it fits under the fingers nicer than Hedwig's theme and you get rests to shift positions but it is relentless for 5 minutes playing ff trying to be heard of the brass). An example of what NOT to do is the Rainbow Bridge scene from Das Rheingold where he splits the 1st violins into 8 (!?) separate parts all playing their own individual, awkward arpeggio parts so every player ends up feeling the pressure of being a soloist and in the end it makes the sound very thin (which I am not sure was Wagner's intention). If you are going to divisi the maximum you should split the players in one section is into 4 playing parts that are fairly homogenous (or if not homogenous within the section then doing something similar to another part in the strings). If you do lot of divisi the sound will be thinner and you will hear individual players more so bear that in mind if you are writing a really thick/wide chord but still want it to be loud. Ideally I would keep divisi to 2 parts maximum (this will also save time as the players will automatically split the notes by inside/outside player rather than having to decide between themselves if they are going to split by player or desk if you split it into 3 or 4 parts). One thing to consider for double/multiple stops is that in a professional orchestra the players will almost certainly automatically divisi 3/4 note chords between inside/outside players and will only play double stops if they are easy and can be played musically (unless it is the stylistic thing to actually play all the notes like an easy G major chord in a Mozart symphony). You get a much cleaner, more in-tune and thicker sound when the players divisi chords. It is also less effort and stress for the players. You do not really need to worry too much about whether a 4 note chord is playable by one player as long as the notes can easily be covered by 2 players. If you do have an effect in mind with double/multiple stops and want the players to play all the notes then you will need to write 'non-div' above it (although the marking might still be ignored if it is very awkward or soloistic like slurred 3rds/octaves or ends up sounding very out of tune). In an amateur orchestra you are more likely to see some players getting into a twist trying to play all the notes but professionals know better that an orchestral part is not a solo violin part and they don't need to be a hero (in fact one of the traits of a professional violinist is that they are aware how their part fits into the overall sound and can do things like looking like they are playing all the notes when in fact they are barely making a sound!) For bowings Ryan is very correct that you should minimise putting in bowing markings unless you have a very particular effect in mind or want a phrase to start with a particular bow direction. As long as you put enough articulation and slurs into the music to give it life then the players will figure out what to do (though can be helpful and save time making decisions if the leader can see the string parts before the first rehearsal). One particular effect where it is useful to specify bowing is repeated down bows which can give a very aggressive sound (although would refrain from doing this for too long as gets stale and annoying quite quickly). String players will probably not naturally do this kind of bowing for a passage unless they know it is wanted. One tip that is not mentioned in this video is that you can write solo parts for a solo violin (or viola or cello or bass, violin or cello generally work best though). This can give a very dramatic change in colour especially if it comes after a big tutti string passage. However I would keep it fairly brief and melodic, 20-30 seconds top as it puts pressure on the player who probably doesn't want to sightread a concerto and can also get old to the ear fairly quickly.

[@simondanielssonmusic]

I'm working an a string quartet, flute and clarinet piece for a composition course I'm currently taking in university. This video is GOLD! Thank you :)

[@ThomasZebovitz]

Hi Ryan, I enjoyed and learned from this video. As a cellist for more than a few decades, and having played in orchestras, musical theater, chamber music, etc, I would like to add another bit of advice. As we are composing for groups of instruments, my ensemble experience has been very useful giving me orchestration insights. Even as a starting cellist, you can join a community orchestra and sit in the back, as I have encouraged many cellists to do. I do tell them not to play in the rests though. This way, you can not only get a sense of the cello, but of all the other instruments. Being in the middle of an orchestra, you can hear how your part fits with the other instruments in a way that defies explanation or descriptions. I have played most of the pieces you cite in your video and agree completely that we must expose ourselves to the genre of music we create.

[@CACingenuity]

Ryan, you are the best! I have never come across this kind of music relevance on KZbin in a long time and I am glad I bumped on your channel and videos. Thank you so much. Simple and to the point...and the content...RICH! You are amazing.

[@maxzweistein8951]

Fantastic picture/word synchronization at 2:29 with "weak and small" at the exact moment where we see an obnoxiously bent violin bridge - very weak, and definitely small.

[@franklacey5054]

Thanks! This is very helpful as I return to composing after several years of letting it go (even after getting my master’s degree in composition!). Returning to the basics is critical. 👍 Subscribed.

[@RyanLeach]

Thank you!

[@billbradleymusic]

Second violin and cello together and keeping the low end less busy to avoid mud, great tips! I'll be more conscious for sure.

[@earthlightsmusic2743]

The double-stop and triple-stop suggestion reminds me that bowed instruments can be chorded or arpeggiated by fingering the chords and rocking the bow, as long as the composer knows what chords are realistic to finger, which means actually knowing something about the target instrument -- violin, viola, 'cello. A worthwhile challenge, but watching Anna Tam can be very instructive!

[@mr88cet]

3:13 - FWIW, I think this is largely good advice for woodwinds, brass, and tuned percussion as well. Probably piano as well.

[@stevehinnenkamp5625]

Love you, Ryan. Your 'muddy textures' is an object lesson. Thank you, maestro.

[@danipar7388]

Didn't expect number 15, that was beautiful

[@lulcy789]

“Just one violinist is not going to be able to give you that full, symphonic sound.” Hilary Hahn (amongst others): *am I a joke to you*

[@castleguard_of_xbox360]

I absolutely love tip 11. I played Dvorák's 12th string quartet and I loved it so much because you were never stuck doing the same thing for more than 2 or 4 measures at a time. It was always changing and the voices each had a part to play in the melody sometime or another.

[@Mistygio]

Loving tip #15. Most useful

[@JakobTreml]

Great video. Would love to see this for every section of the orchestra :)

[@RyanLeach]

It's a possibility, maybe I could do one on percussion but I've never been able to devote as much attention to woodwinds and brass as I have to strings and rhythm section!

[@JakobTreml]

@@RyanLeach I would love to watch a percussion video as much as I loved every single video on your channel! Keep up the good work! 😊

[@jannisbmrt]

Really helpful tips, didn't even know players can play two or three notes at a time. Thank you!

[@RyanLeach]

Happy to help!

[@earthlightsmusic2743]

So I have a dozen available techniques - I tend to gravitate to the familiar ones like long, pizzicato, tremolo, and some kind of jab, befitting the location in the piece. Pads or longs are so string-synth, so I agree, whole notes *so* indicate lack of effort, or at least first-pass of arrangement. Well, you've given me food for thought -- using your suggestions could make my scores more transparent and alive. Great presentation!

[@danielbrandt9072]

Absolutely gold! Thank you!

[@martin-raison-music-composer]

As a newbie in orchestration your videos are very helpful Ryan, thanks a lot 🙏🎻

[@nilsfrederking62]

Your videos are the most helpful orchestration videos on KZbin. Easy to understand, very effective and down to the point without beating around the bush. And of course from someone with real world experience. Thank you!

[@andreasvalkare559]

Really good information filled video! All tips seem logical and I already married a violinist, I'm off to a good start!

[@raymelfabian3749]

Ah man, your content is on another level. Im a musician as well and started studying composicion and orchestration by myself with books and lectures from talented people other friends recommended me, then I found you and a light to all the excesive and complicated things I didnt understand at the begining now makes sense. Thanks a lot and hope to keep having more of this everyday.

[@RyanLeach]

Great to hear thanks

[@davidrick959]

I enjoyed this video, and most of your advice makes sense to me as a string player. I'd quibble with your statement that sharp keys are preferred over flat keys. While professional string players can play in any key, if you want to make them comfortable, my advice is to simply count the number of sharps or flats in the key signature -- fewer is better! In general, anything up to 3 of either will be comfortable, even for community orchestra players. Exceed that, and you're asking for more rehearsal time, more session time, and a less fluid sounding result. It's not just that a string part in a disfavored key becomes more awkward in execution and harder to sightread correctly; it also becomes less beautiful. The reason is that, as the number of sharps or flats in the key signature increases, you begin foreclosing the use of open strings. Playability aside, this means that those unused open strings don't appear in the harmonic series of the notes you are using, and the instruments sound less resonant as a result. Any string player can demonstrate sympathetic vibration of open strings for you. Have them play spaced notes in G major and listen to the complex sound and the ringing in the spaces between notes. Next have them play the exact same thing in F# major: all the magic is gone!

[@zacalakemusic]

Thank you, you are wonderful at this! I love your viewpoint. I love strings.

[@Jorbertus]

This is one of the most helpful videos i´ve ever watched :) Thank you!!

[@garabatero]

Fast, useful and concise. Perfect video and i'm pretty sure 3 or more of these tips will change everything for me.

[@jimkarner9513]

Hi. Great video. In terms of what I’d like to know more about it’s writing for 2nd instruments, ie second violin etc. I’m also going to get the book you suggested too. I was also interested in what you said about writing for the double bass. All very interesting.

[@brzozek9669]

Thank you for this video, it's very usefull for a person who just beginns and is looking for some interesting ideas!

[@joaoaugustodomingues719]

Excellent!

[@antjamnow1286]

Filling the gaps: how would I keep interest with the strings if the piano has the melody... and the 16th-note chordal accompaniment is sweeping in the left hand of the piano as well? The strings might not have harmonic space to fill, but I know they're vital to supporting the piano in this sonata.

[@Ouvii]

7:02 15 worked for me too!

[@Nimatarsetar]

On the multiple stops you mentioned checking the playability with a chart. Where to find such chart is my question. Thank you!

[@grandmasterblowhole4245]

I followed tip 15. Probably the best one here ;-)

[@RyanLeach]

Haha, I didn't even have to look to know which one you were referring to!

[@kappabravomusic2101]

Outstanding❤

[@sewind6613]

Outstandingly useful. Thank you!

[@seamusmcmorrow4435]

This is great, Ryan. Appreciate you.

[@ab562]

Thanks for the useful tips. Have you got a video specifically on colour and texture?

[@colinjames2469]

Fantastic list! Thank you.

[@amaurimontalvo3014]

Where can I find John Williams's scores to study how he writes his music? Or other film composers. Thank you. Your videos are great!

[@MooImABunny]

I'm covering a song that already had strings, and I pretty much transcribed the parts (but in a reduced form because I have 3 string players instead of an orchestra) We had a strings section practice yesterday and talked about how the cello part was boring (even though she was the best player of the group) so I'm now considering adding a new cello part for the second chorus, and I'll be using your tips :D

[@bensanders6000]

Excellent. Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

[@FabioFaddaArtInBroker]

Please, any tips for composing for "piano and cello"? That would be great, for me!

[@Nimatarsetar]

Just paused to acknowledge your effort with these wonderful videos. Back to the video. 😄

[@tobysandovaloficial]

Exceptional video, thanks a lot for this very valuable info. Especially num.15 :) :)

[@velvik]

4:53 I don’t get tip #10 about “leaning towards sharps and away from flats” f# and Gb are enharmonic equivalents so why would you choose one over the “other” can someone please explain

[@Faerion]

Hello, Ryan. Thank you for very useful tips! Please, share a link to a video on 8:01 where boars eat something in mud

[@RyanLeach]

I use Storyblocks for stock footage so it probably came from there

[@StephanSchipper]

Tipp No 15 ..... Done 👍

[@jayducharme]

Great suggestions! Thanks.

[@rodterrell304]

This is a great video Ryan, very helpful.

[@NikolaiMusicChannel]

Been enjoying your videos lately after I stumbled upon your channel :-) You have a nice way of breaking down subjects and concepts to concrete tools, skills and workflows that I find very useful in learning the craft of composing and orchestration/arranging. Also as a fellow KZbinr, good video quality, video editing and video compositions and flow, with helpful and pleasing graphics :-) Appreciate your efforts!

[@RyanLeach]

Awesome, thank you!

[@cathalfaughnanmusic]

this was a great video. took notes

[@RyanLeach]

Glad you enjoyed!

[@HiromuSeifertMusic]

Thanks for the great video!! Greets from Berlin

[@terryslade6240]

Thank you for this timely instruction. Great stuff.

[@poletteh.2803]

Great video, thanks 🖤

[@imfrankiea]

how do I write cello piece from the violin piece. I heard that I must push down the violin noted 4 whole steps to make it a cello piece from a violin piece. Am I right? and what about changing the cello notes? should the noted be simple pads in key or what??

[@edkollert8279]

Well, I’m not sure w the Tip 25. When we play in an ensemble (I’m a professional violinist) we tend to play similarly, including trying to much vibratos. Playing very different vibrato or even one playing with and the other without can be very crashing… That’s why for example we refrain from big vibratos when playing double-stopped octaves etc with an *open string* cuz while you’ll be vibrating the non-open note but not vibrating the open note.

[@tilleyroadaffairproduction6752]

Thank you so much...

[@franciscoaragao5398]

Muito bem. Obrigado.

[@dariusprim]

I did want to ask, what is the best intervals for the strings (violin, viola, cellos, etc.)? I know some people may do extensions (9ths, 10ths, 12ths, 14th, etc) for one player, but is 6ths on one instrument okay?

[@edmorris1437]

This is fantastic advice. I am an occasional violin player, and recently started composing in MuseScore purely for my own amusement. I think I’ve written enough fiddle tunes now, so am trying my hand at slower tempo string ensemble pieces. It’s early days yet, but I’ finding it more difficult to write melodies that are the slightest bit memorable. But even learning to write arrangements around mediocre ideas is engaging. I learned a lot here. Is there a transcript of your narration?

[@askbrettmanning]

This is fantastic! I have a channel for singers. So, I can totally appreciate solid, concise content.

[@willwalker24601]

The one tip I want to hear you elaborate on is how to make all 4 parts play the melody at different times.

[@alexandrelevy3916]

Great stuff! Thanks a lot for such pro info! your channel is a gem!

[@xenasloan6859]

as usual, loved this - so wish you were by my side when my efforts splutter....

[@amj.composer]

LMFAO I literally did No. 15 two months ago, worked really well for me XD. I use her for SO many markings and idiomatic writing in my orchestral works haha

[@ericvanjames8395]

Excellent! Thank you. ~

[@NidusFormicarum]

Thanks for your tips! I'm writing a movement for string trio now and one of the things I'm not sure about is how to do when I need double stops. I try to find practical solutions, but I'm limited with only three instruments and I feel I have much more to learn about the subject. Using open strings, for instance, can of course be both an advantage and a disadvatage depending on the context. But what should I be aware of when writing to lines (and not just a single stop) simultaniously for a string instrument for a couple of notes? What is pracical to play and what is too akward or even impossible? (I'm not talking about truely indepenent lines here, but adding an extra voice to make a passage more powerful and harmonically rich at some crescendos.) If someone could elaborate on this subject, that would be great, thanks!

[@tedolsenmusic]

anything that fits under the hands of the player should work- I've seen cellists barre quadruple stops (like barre chords on guitar)- but if no open strings a triple stop is a safer bet (of course make sure the notes you choose can be played on different strings!). A lot of times the player will play the lower two strings short/on the downbeat, and then flam to the higher strings and sustain (like solo entrance of Dvorak cello concerto)

[@Biditchoun]

That really depends on the chords, there is no precise guide on how hard a chord is to play. Generally though, if there are two notes in a chord that have a separation that is divisible by a perfect fifth, if those two notes are not played on adjacent strings or if the two notes are not open strings, the chord will gain a ton of difficulty. But again, it doesn't mean unplayable, it really depends on the chords. If you want I can say if something is easy, doable or unplayable if you post screenshots of it ^^

[@NidusFormicarum]

@@Biditchoun One would be (from above) b flat, d, g to a, d, f sharp on the upper three strings on the violin (and viola one octace lower). This very close (just a semitone) tripple stops I have seen on charts and in reel scores. Also, g sharp, d, f. A major second (f, e flat) to a minor third (f, d) on cello, I hope will work. (d and g strings)

[@Biditchoun]

If I understood it correctly you meant all those on the image linked below, they are all easy, except maybe for the cello, but the musician should still be able to. cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/634725981005021204/969001010544660530/unknown.png

[@Lamvevo]

thank for your time

[@drummonk3699]

Thank you ! Clear and to the point!

[@RyanLeach]

Thanks for watching!

[@hugobouma]

re Tip 10: context matters! Violin and viola are essentially diatonic instruments, in which one "note-letter" corresponds to one finger. Enharmonic spelling often informs the fingering: you'd play an F# on the D-string automatically with the second finger, whereas the same pitch spelled as Gb would get a third finger, as you are likely to also need an F *and* an Eb in that passage. A good player can play in any key, and this definitely includes the flat keys. However, if you have a diatonic passage in, say, E flat minor but with Gb spelled as F# "because Ryan said so" it will counteract the player's natural fingering instincts as well as confuse their sense of intonation. Making scales and triads look like scales and triads definitely supersedes the "favor sharps" rule.

[@MichaelJohnson-composer]

It would be great to have a video where you go into more depth with each tip. Maybe do an example for us.

[@ComposerAndiKrueger]

very good ideas and tips. thx

[@bryndayy]

Interested to hear more on #31.

[@yaqoot2687]

Hey, does anybody know the string player in the thumbnail?

[@RyanLeach]

What tip(s) would you like to see a more in-depth video about?

[@Boinzy476]

Tip 13 might make for an interesting video to expound on. Writing for string quartet using one or both forms and the rule of 3?

[@RyanLeach]

@@Boinzy476 Great suggestion, the rule of 3 can apply to just about everything!

[@JanKleinSwormink]

Obvious nr 15. And besides 13 and about the available collors. Thanks for the video

[@edelcorrallira]

For us guitarists out there ... Think of it this way... Highest violin string is, then A, then D, finally G... Same thing just upside down. You might be able to map things better with this in mind :)

[@nicolasbarronstudent6084]

sooooooooo helpful

[@chrislopez9997]

how much do you charge to write strings for a song? thanks

[@RyanLeach]

Hey Chris, email me at [e-mail] and let me know what you’re looking for!

[@lizziesmusicmaking]

When you said get your player to bring a second instrument, I thought at first you meant a completely different instrument, like violin vs flute and went 'wait, that only works if your musician is a multi-instrumentalist on the instruments you want'... ooh. That's what he actually meant. Oops. That makes so much more sense.

[@maccabanana1373]

Would have never guessed you had a guitar background

[@celiofmusic]

9:44 the girl on the pic isn't a violinist, wtf is that pinky??!!!

[@donlawrencessongs188]

I suspect a meta-tip: keep a journal of things you learn, so that you don't forget them. (And in case you want to make a KZbin video someday.)

[@yes_future]

2:30 I had heart attack as violinist

[@ShaharHarshuv]

"Marry a Violinist". I married a singer, and that's more helpful that you would have thought.

[@wampfinzlord8878]

I always get in conflict with tip 10 when I want to write for a full orchestra because woodwinds, to which I belong to, and brass instruments I think even more prefer to play flats instead of sharps. Especially when I think of transposing instruments. Imagine you want to write the piece in D major which is a perfect key for violins but then think about the poor Alto Saxophone player who has to play in B Major which is not a nice key for Saxophone. In my experience B Major is not a nice key for any instrument (except for piano. Everything is fine on the piano. B Major is mostly not harder to play than C Major or F Major). I once wrote a piece in D Major and my trombonist friend (who is actually not a good player because he is more into sports, though he doesn't practice much, which is totally fine) has gone mad because he is not used to play sharps

[@kevinmkraft]

Wish I'd seen this before I sent in my entry fot this year's composing contest! LOL

[@timothytikker3834]

My cello teacher showed me a part she had to play recently, in which the composer wrote an extended passage with an ostinato of four sixteenths forming a descending arpeggio -- one was Eb major. She explained that it was simply unplayable as written. She had to leave a note out of the pattern. She later found out that the violas had the same problem, and had come up with the same solution.

[@edmorris1437]

Something that guitar players might consider is picking up an inexpensive concert or (even better) a tenor ukulele and replacing the strings with Aquila’s strings for fifth’s tuning (CGDA). Basically you create a strumming/picking instrument in the same tuning and range as a viola (or cello + 1 octave). You’ll also be able to test which double stops/chord shapes are most playable. Basically you create a poor man’s mandola that isn’t nearly as loud as a violin or cello and is easy on your fingers. I enjoy noodling around on it, and it’s a good instrument to travel with too.

[@christopherravelbell8899]

I like those wild hogs. They are cute!!!

[@tanukibrahma]

Paul Buckmaster’s strings on Elton John’s Madman Across the Water album are probably my favorite in the pop-rock genre.

[@GersonSalvador]

Ok, the 15 one trick me 😅

[@rlmaestromusica9934]

#15 MARRY YOUR MUSIC THEORY PROFESSOR ✅DONE

[@doricdream498]

another tip - whenever possible, dont write for the instrument, write for the *player.* Everyone has their own preferences on what they do, and if you give a player something they really don't like playing, they will never play for you again. For example, you mentioned string players are good at scales and arpeggios but that absolutely does not mean that's what we actually want to play. And the more a string player actually has FUN playing your music, the better it will turn out. So if possible, know who your performer is WELL before the compositional process even begins.

[@mariesyvian8187]

#19, though I'm a percussionist, when nobody in the orchestra is following dynamic markings, the conductor calls it mezzo-mushy