Orchestration Tip: Scoring 6 to 8 Horns

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[@jsaavedr1]

As I used to say in college, when all 8 are playing in unison, we referred it as "balls to the wall", of course the orchestra director would always yell at us to dial it back due to us drowning out the rest of the orchestra. Ahh, good days.

[@smittywerbenjagermanjensen7027]

I believe the idea IS to drown out the rest of the orchestra. At least, from the perspective of a tuba player, I like when brass gets to play questionably loud.

[@maxgregorycompositions6216]

Behave!

[@Qermaq]

Q. How do you turn hornists into trombonists? A. Write for 8 in unison.

[@Liletter]

Me, the only horn out of my whole city’s middle school bands wondering how on earth it’s even possible to have more than two horns in the same room.

[@Apfelstrudl]

Poor Lilette as you arn't able to get the awesome feeling of playing in a proper horn section.

[@Jwellsuhhuh]

Poor Lilette

[@AndreyRubtsovRU]

6 horns really give amasing new depth to an orhcestra. Shame we didn't settle on this as a standard.

[@SpaghettiToaster]

We settled on 8 instead?

[@maxalaintwo3578]

That'd be overstimulating. After one symphony, your dopamine receptors would be fried

[@TiagoNugentComposer]

@NinjaSnail1080 It depends. For most concert work, 4 is the standard, But in most film music (at least the orchestral scores a la John Williams or even Hans Zimmer to a degree), 6 is the standard.

[@jeannebouwman1970]

@@TiagoNugentComposer and then you have John Powell who uses 12 freaking horns in httyd

[@gammafoxlore2981]

@@jeannebouwman1970 Then you have strauss who asks for 20 horns in his tone poem: "An Alpine Symphony"

[@timothytikker1147]

One especially cherished memory is hearing the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra performing Varèse's Arcana in 1984. I especially remember the moment when all eight horns played a fortissimo downward glissando with bells in the air!

[@timothytikker1147]

Another reference composer for eight horns is Alexander Scriabin, in Poem of Ecstasy and Prometheus (available together in a Dover reprint edition). One way he took advantage of this grouping was to have four horns muted playing an echo to the other four unmuted.

[@itznoxy7193]

That's a really cool idea

[@SpaghettiToaster]

He used 8 horns even before those pieces. He really liked a lot of horns, even though in many pieces (like Symphony 3) it's not at all obvious, at least to me, what he uses them all for. Without having looked at the score, I'd guess he always uses some for sustained padding of chords to add resonance and glow to a texture, with the others free to do melodic stuff.

[@brendanward2991]

3:18: - "One and three" you obviously meant to say.

[@zoeheim4099]

My school band is going to have 11 horns this year, excited

[@violetavalery]

Excellent video, thank you! I've learned much more watching just a few of your videos than in two years attending orchestration classes at college!

[@itznoxy7193]

Can you consider doing more videos like this for other instruments? Like 4 trumpets, 4 trombones, quadruple winds etc.

[@ephraimpinckney8209]

I need to watch this at least 3 more times for this to sink in. Trumpet and cornet parts weren't as complicated as this. Even with all this being said who doesn't appreciate a thick wall of horn sound from time 2 time.

[@NicolasRezai]

Thanks for this video. It's clear and easy to understand when we know the basics.

[@andrewoliver7095]

Hell yeah Star Trek Voyager

[@SaxandRelax]

you should do a video about saxes

[@pauljmorton]

3:19 I wonder if there's a special reason behind the second staff being "5. 2." instead of "2. 5." when all the others are smaller number first, or if it's just a typo.

[@JimCullen]

Thanks as always for the great video. I hope I'm not wrong in this, but my takeaway from this - from all these different approaches used even by the same composer - was kind of just "there are a bunch of different options with different pros/cons. Weigh them up for yourself and go with whatever you think." Not as easy to answer as some other questions, but interesting nonetheless.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Sure, Jim - so long as you can see the logic behind each choice, either from my explanation or from further score-reading - then I've done my work. :) Your own scoring may well conform to an entirely different configuration than I've suggested, and that's fine as long as it makes sense in the scope of both the work and also unity of the section.

[@SquidKing]

Love Mahler 3 movement 1

[@martineyles]

Any thoughts on 7 Horns (Mahler 1) or Wagner Tuba (Bruckner 7 & 9), or Shostakovich (Leningrad), and what they can teach?

[@leoserna5961]

Thank you Thomas

[@5BBassist4Christ]

When scoring doubling for instruments (especially lines with only two players in unison), how careful do you need to be in considering intonation/timing, least they create a phaser? Technically, string ensembles will phase each other, but because of the number of string players, the phasing becomes a characteristic of the ensemble instead of a clash of pitch/timing. Because of the difficulty of intonation in horns, would it be something more to consider than when doubling parts for flutes, oboes, bassoons, and clarinets? Every time I write for both musicians to play the same line, I think about how the phasing will effect the sound if they're not perfectly in tune.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I cover this in 100 Orchestration Tips. Briefly: doubling good for flutes middle register and up, brass, and strings (3 or more violins, 2 or more violas & cellos); noticeably phased for reed instruments, especially chalumeau clarinets and bass clarinets. Forte exposed doubled bassoons and oboes will have a hard edge to their sound, and the latter can substitute for trumpet in a pinch. Always triple low register flutes, alto and bass flutes.

[@sebastianzaczek]

I've recently had a look at the score of Ligeti's "Nouvelles Aventures" and the French Horn part is written in Concert pitch, Not transposed. Also I have Not been able to find partial (?) scores, it always seems like the musicians are playing from the whole score (which, judging by the Complexity of the piece, is quite understandable). In me, this raised the question if i can write a horn part in Concert pitch without having to worry if the Player will be able to read it flawlessly... Does the same also apply to Clarinets? I can Imagine that it would be a little more difficult to read a Concert pitch score on a clarinet...

[@ejoomf]

Professional hornists are accustomed to transposition, so you could write for Horn in C if you wish or have trouble transposing, but modern horn parts rarely have a need to be written in anything other than F, so it may come off as a lack of understanding of the horn or as eccentricity. Clarinets, on the other hand, would most likely be annoyed with it. They could work around it, but there is also no reason to do so.

[@haroldsullivan4316]

How about Prokofiev and his treatment of 8 horns in the Ballet Romeo & Juliet? (where some of the horns are used to spell the principal, and assistant principal, at times [the wedding scene in particular...] )

[@sashakindel3600]

Missing a bass clef on the bottom staff at 3:08, for what it's worth.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Thanks for helping me catch errors.

[@caterscarrots3407]

Thanks as always for making good orchestration videos. I am writing an original piece for orchestra and the slow sections need some weight. It is supposed to be Lento lamentoso, but I don’t know if the strings will add enough weight given that the violins are playing a countermelody, the double basses are holding the root note, and the cellos and violas are both doing arpeggios. The woodwind melody goes up into the second octave, well within the mellow range of the flute and is at a quiet dynamic. I have been told that 3 trombones in their high register is going to be quieter than 4 horns as far as harmonizing the woodwinds goes. Trombones would certainly add some weight, but are they really going to be quieter than 4 horns in the same octave?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Go with horns. They can play quite softly all the way up to written F5 (sounding Bb 4). I wouldn't use trombones, that would be more difficult in terms of intonation and timbral balance, to say nothing of sounding a little shouty up there.

[@caterscarrots3407]

OrchestrationOnline I will use the horns then. I suppose the trombones would be more suited to the crescendo into the fast section.

[@gustavyeung]

I wonder why the 8-horn canon at the beginning of Das Rheingold and the prelude to Act 3 of Götterdämmerung, which is a kind of reminiscence of the Das Rheingold passage, were not quoted. Wagner is certainly one of the earliest composers to call for 8 horns.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I'm keeping my community focused on Mahler because it's easier for me to teach orchestration in the context of pure instrumental music in a short video tip. Wagner is a huge can of worms that I don't quite want to open yet.

[@igorverissimo607]

Great!!

[@MiloDC]

Anyone know how many horns Jerry Goldsmith used at the very beginning of the Main Title for The Final Conflict? For that matter, does anyone know if/where the score for that movie can be obtained? It's remarkable, one of his absolute best.

[@JonFrumTheFirst]

So are there seventh horn players out there, just waiting to get a call for a 7th horn gig? I know nothing of horn voicing practice, but it's hard to imagine aspiring professionals would turn down a 4th horn gig because he/she trained as a 3rd horn. Always willing to learn.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

No, that's not how it works. Usually there's an established section in an orchestra of two high players (1 & 3) and two low players (2 & 4). Each high and low player pairs up by number - 1+2 and 3+4. In older scores, these pairs might be playing different natural tunings in order to cover all the different pitches that a score might call for. So that's the normal section. Then in a larger work, the orchestra will hire additional players - freelancers, retirees, and members or other orchestras being the most typical choices. Orchestras have lists of players they call on when they need a substitute in case of a contract player not being available, or needing additional players. Now that you have all the background, the answer to your question is that usually out of this pool of players, the most-suited player will be asked to play whichever part is needed. There aren't any 7th horn players waiting by the phone - but if the orchestra is playing Mahler, then the other orchestra in town's hornists may get a call.

[@AlgyCuber]

is it ok to score horns 1 and 2 as the top horns and 3 and 4 as the bottom horns in when scoring for 4 horns?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Hi Algy! It really depends on the situation. You need to do a ton of score-reading. Usually, third horn is the lower or alternate high horn. Read these two tips: orchestrationonline.com/scoring/horn-wars-scoring-12-34-vs-13-24/ orchestrationonline.com/instruments/horns/horn-section-teamwork/

[@paoloannunziato7798]

Dear Thomas, please pardon my ignorance; what was the very first extract from the introduction? Many thanks for all your hard work!

[@joeabc]

Gustav Mahler: Symphony No. 3, Movement 1. The excerpt's right at the start.

[@paoloannunziato7798]

Ah of course it was also mentioned during the video, I should've guessed! Thank you very much!!

[@AydarAkhmady]

For me, it sounded so much like Shostakovich at first hearing! Now I can see how Mahler influenced him.

[@brendanward2991]

Is the traditional distinction between high and low horns a thing of the past now? I mean, does a modern orchestral horn player have to be proficient over the entire range of the instrument? If so, does it really matter how the parts are divided up?

[@PLTConductorComposer]

In theory, a professional should be proficient throughout the instrument, but in practice it is still risky to give something high to 2, 4, 6 or 8; the same for low stuff and 1, 3, 5 or 7.

[@avrumgolub2735]

Today's horn player must be proficient over a nearly 4 octave range. To quote my teacher, the late John Barrows, "Good 1st horns are a dime-a-dozen, a good 4th horn player is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow". He said this to me some 50+ years ago when I asked him about major auditions since I was already 1st horn in a number of orchestras by audition (I was 14 years old, then, Mr. Barrows first "kid" student in his New York City days). BTW, I turned down a scholarship to the Julliard and became a physician. Tonight is the first rehearsal of the West Islip Symphony Orchestra, a community orchestra - Tchaikovsky's 5th - I'm principal horn.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

"...a thing of the past...?" Not at all, Brendan. I'm married to a fantastic second horn player. She can tune the inside of a chord like nobody's business, and partner with her first in beautifully seamless ways. But she'll occasionally play first horn for the fun of it, or third. The psychological challenges for each of those parts (or rewards for playing the 4th part in Beethoven's 9th, movement 3) are distinct. Also, "does it really matter how the parts are divided up?" God, yes! The way players relate to each other hasn't changed, and that is at the heart of how the parts are scored.

[@Tmjr6]

Horn student in college, by far the largest thing we are taught is how to use and learn our vast ranges to learn the part philosophy. It is very much a standard practice today.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Thanks for chiming in, Tmjr6! Indeed, I rely on players who understand that philosophy in my own scoring.

[@natheniel]

That is some bad youtube audio compression at the end there.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

And the whole world has to answer right now just to tell you once again what's bad... ;)

[@hfdokoy9989]

What is the reason to give Hones Numbers Ex: 2 and 5 ?. Thank you

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Horn players sit in order across the stage. Each position has a number and a different essential role.

[@hfdokoy9989]

Thank you. I think I just got more confused.

[@crazygermn]

Not gonna touch Alpine Symphony and it's 12 horns?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

We'll leave that for "And Yet 100 Orchestration Tips on Top of That."

[@ariston8368]

Richard Strauss uses 4 horns on and 12 horns behind the stage, so there are even 16 horns

[@Maddenhawk]

Alpine Symphony uses 8 horns (bottom 4 doubling Wagner Tuba), and 12 off-stage horns

[@ariston8368]

@@Maddenhawk I knew about that, but didn't want to count the Wagnertuben as "real" horns

[@wilfriedk7378]

@@ariston8368 But the Wagnertuben 1-4 are also Horn 5-8. In alpine symphony they switch instruments. So they are really 8 Horns that play on stage and 12 off stage

[@GoOKuSj33]

To this day I still have not bothered using more than 2 horns.

[@rachidajewher8649]

can we apply this in pop music ?

[@lorddisappointment1792]

Rachid Ajewher why are you putting that many horns in pop music

[@rachidajewher8649]

@@lorddisappointment1792 cause im the king of atlantis

[@Jwellsuhhuh]

Step 1: Get 6-8 horns

[@gredangeo]

Here I was thinking that each horn has its own set of music sheets, showing one note for them to play.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

They absolutely do. Every wind and brass player gets their own part. These are score excerpts, not parts excerpts. Some older parts may show two players, but that's not done today.

[@paulc778]

I'd say that can't be relied upon as a rule. And indeed sometimes its VERY useful to have both parts on the page, so you can see when (for example) the 1st might come in a bar beforre the 2nd, or have a different rhythm, etc etc. Or just to see the harmonies you're expected to play. But then other times it can become muddled to have >1 part on a sheet. There's really 3 variations on it: 1) each part has their own sheet; 2) 2 parts on a sheet, but on different systems (aka staff - I know there's a slight technical difference between 'system' and 'staff'!) 3) 2 parts on the same system. The intermediate variation can reduce the clutter and make it easier to read, but then of course you can fit less music onto each page, so there's more page turns. Fortunately for horn players, page turns are normally a non-issue because they usually have periods of rests too. Not true for all instruments (eg bass players) where often they will be playing for most of the time.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

FWIW, I have rarely if ever seen a modern published part with two players to a page. Well-placed cues probably cover most of the concerns above. Most publishers would probably ask the composer/copyist to split their parts and add better cues if two-player parts were submitted. And most horn players I know would consider such parts to be amateurish.

[@paulc778]

I guess you only know professional horn players. Its interesting you say "amateurish" - its exactly the situation I play in - amateur orchestras etc. We don't have the luxury of copyists or even complete parts sometimes, we need to scratch around for bits here and there; and some of the music, you fear handling it due to the risk of catching some weird disease off it - I am sure you know the kind of thing I mean! Anyway, be reassured that parts which two players read off is not uncommon. And isn't really such a bad thing, a lot of the time, anyway.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Haha! Don't worry about that! It's just that you have to look at it from my perspective: on this channel, I have to give the most reliable professional-practice advice that I know. You added a perspective which, while very welcome, didn't make clear that you were coming from a different type of experience. So naturally we didn't agree, but there's nothing personal in that. I deal with many approaches of scoring and part preparation, and I'm not personally knocking anything, but just trying to keep people on the most up-to-date practices. Also, I'm not opposed to semipro and amateur musicians - I work with them all the time, and respect what they do. But some pro musicians can be snooty at times, and can be even harder on composers who aren't fully aware of what they need. Hence my strong cautions. :)

[@kiren3168]

Can someone explain to me why horn numbers matter? I am familiar with mozart and classical stuff so I find this confusing.

[@liamskeen2884]

Das Sir The horns are usually categorized (in four horns) with horns 1 and 3 as higher parts, and 2 and 4 as lower parts. This stemmed from each pair, say 1 and 2 were playing horns in a different key from 3 and 4, so the top parts of each pair played high, and he bottom played low.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Hi there! Please go to orchestrationonline dot com and look up the article "Horn Wars" - that will explain everything.

[@kiren3168]

OrchestrationOnline thank you so much :)

[@hirokokueh3541]

in wind orchestra we usually perform works from many different genres, they put horns in different order that's a big problem. some pieces are default horns set (1.3./ 2.4.), and some jazz or pop pieces only have 2 parts (1.1./ 2.2.) or 3 parts (1.2./ 3.3.), so the 2nd and 3rd horn have to switch their seat