Orchestration Tip: Timpani is (not) a Bass Instrument

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[@edharbison995]

Interestingly, in drum corps, the modern timpanist has very melodic lines. Older drum corps had a timpani per player and a hand crank for tuning, but nowadays full chromatic bass lines are very common.

[@Calsop170]

Whenever I listen to Drum Corps stuff, I always find this style really loses the impact of the timpani. Often the instrument is barely heard in most pieces, which is kinda what Thomas said in the video about overuse.

[@borodrew]

Definitely related, but outside of the video. Jonathan Haas recorded a jazz album on timpani. Just because it can be done, doesn’t mean it should be done lol. Still pretty cool to see in both cases, but you shouldn’t write like that for orchestra. Especially if the piece is going to be played by anything other than a professional orchestra.

[@MichaelPuterbaugh]

@@Calsop170 I watch rehearsal videos of drum corps timpanists and they're constantly playing just the most virtuosic passages, degrees of difficulty beyond anything in the standard orchestral and wind band repertoires. Then I watch the entire show performance and I don't even hear or notice the timpani, except when they reinforce rhythmic unisons with the rest of the pit. But excess is what the scoring system rewards, so parts will keep being over-written.

[@evangrover8414]

Because they don’t really care about intonation

[@edharbison995]

@@evangrover8414 Trust me, they care a lot.

[@tahutoa]

Your two examples were great for two different styles of writing that play to the Timpani's strengths. The timpani is like a highlighter pen. You can use it for long, extended passages, or highlight a couple words every so often when you want to accentuate or mark the start of a given sentence. However, with either method, the more text gets highlighted, the less your eyes will be drawn to what's been highlighted. It becomes regular text all over again, only now there's an unnecessary color that's been added.

[@LittleGenevieve]

having to play at 123.7 bpm sounds like an absolute nightmare

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Yeah, that's a joke piece. I invented an example of someone going overboard in a lot of ways.

[@ephraimpinckney8209]

What does the .7 mean?

[@rosiefay7283]

No, having to *conduct* at 123.7 bpm sounds like an absolute nightmare.

[@clutterderp_8161]

*p s e u d o s c i e n t i f i c a l l y*

[@ehess1492]

What’s so hard about 123.7? It’s just a number like any other. We’ve probably all played that tempo at some point.

[@onitasanders7403]

To your very informative presentation , there is a wonderful companion set of videos done by the Principal timpanist of “The Orchestra Age of Enlightenment”. Covering the history of these drums, he manages to impart his enthusiasm and points out that In the hundreds of years that the orchestra has managed to add more and more players to broaden the sound as written by the many, many composers. in general, there is still the “One” timpani player. I said in general. Fascinating.

[@tinevucko8594]

I've been playing timpani for 20+ years and this is an OUTSTANDING video! Multiple thumbs up and huge thanks for pointing out things so perfectly.

[@PJMPercussion]

Concise, Articulate, with Great examples ALL without talking down to anyone or sounding judgmental. I thoroughly enjoyed your presentation

[@BrunodeSouzaLino]

There's something worse than that. What if you don't have a full timpani set and are handled one of those pieces? When I played timpani in a woodwind orchestra, the band only had space for the two middle timpani (26" and 29"). One day, the president handles me a chart he'd written, a sort of medley of Carmen. I look at it and it had notes I could not play on the set, as they would need the small 23" to pull off. Without much choice, I had to transpose these notes down an octave during performance, so you could play them. If you're writing for small ensembles, it's also important to focus most of your notes in the middle range of the timpani set, as most places will not have the full set available either due to budget or other constraints.

[@laurajhball]

That "Thomas acts surprised he's being filmed" opening, though! 🤣 How many of us have wanted to sneak on stage, grab two mallets and, at a vigorous forte, go DOMINANT TONIC DOMINANT TONIC DOMINANT TONIC *DOMINANT ROLL PPP

[@laurencefinston7036]

Sounds great! How about DOMINANT, grab all the mallets and run for the exit?

[@8GigueBits]

The kettle at 2:15 has a smiling face. I'm scared.

[@j.lindback]

Ha ha, came here to say this! I'm so glad I'm not the only one who noticed that mischievous face there^^

[@QA-ut7dd]

I am beyond thrilled that an orchastrator is actually covering this topic. As a timpanist / percussionist, I agree with everything you mentioned. Also, it's rather ironic your choice of background music, I'm preparing to perform that very piece in a few weeks, on one of the timpani parts. A bass instrument, timpani is not. Doing 200+ changes within a 20 minute piece gets old real fast, for the listener and the player. Overuse, the changes get ridiculous, etc, etc. I've participated in many a composer reading where we'll read down a brand new work by a young composer, and the percussion parts are almost always over the top. I understand very well the need to push boundaries in the art, but it seems as though every new work is trying to be the next piece that "does something new", at least it feels that way sometimes. There are points in my playing when I find it can be just as rewarding to play a simple 5-1 (there's a big dom-tonic in the first movement of Mahler 1 that comes to mind.... still the most satisfying 5-1 I've ever played 😂). Never underestimate the power of a great resolution in the timpani.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I really appreciate your perspective and good wishes, R Thomas! It really makes a difference when a pro lets me know I've got it right.

[@ProudBerliozian]

The Berlioz shouldn’t be so ironic, if you think about it; he WAS a timpanist, and played one of the timpani parts at the premiere of the Fantastique-more so to keep an eye on the wayward Habeneck, than to actually participate.

[@VaughanMcAlley]

@@ProudBerliozian I didn't know that. I played timpani for my 3rd Sinfonietta, and the tuning (at least hehe) was perfect.

[@daviddavenport9350]

Well the timpani CAN be a sort of bass instrument.....think of the Mozart Divertimento K. 188 where he employs 4 timpani tuned G,A,c,d.....with five trumpets and two flutes (probably fifes)......it works! Also the Serenata Notturna! Britten's use of the timpani in the Passacaglia from "Peter Grimes" has the timpani intone the Ground bass on 5 pitches (I used 5 drums for that passage....as I really wanted to play it in tune).....

[@bassaroo]

These are all very good points! I am a professional double bassist, and have played all these pieces mentioned. But, I have also played in the pit in shows, and one show in particular had the timp double all my parts an octave higher on one piece. What a tuning nightmare that was! It sounded like every note he played was out of tune, which also made me sound as if I was also out of tune on every note. Ug!!!

[@daviddavenport9350]

Yep...that happens!

[@kiren3168]

So true. Overusing timpani makes it less special and dramatic. I really like the conservative use of this instrument in the Classical era, where it was pretty much only used on the tonic and dominant, the most important harmonic sounds.

[@ethancheung2696]

Timpani players would disagree

[@Holobrine]

Ethan Cheung I’m a percussionist who plays timpani sometimes and I actually don’t disagree

[@ethancheung2696]

Holobrine I’m also a percussionist and do respect your opinion

[@ethancheung2696]

Primo Antonius In conclusion, we all are percussionists who respect and disrespect each other’s opinions

[@ethancheung2696]

Primo Antonius Is the 44th President of the USA

[@lawrence18uk]

Another timpani technique you could have mentioned is where the timpani introduces a new bass note - it could be a single note, changing key, or a a long roll establishing a pedal note. But in these cases the new note is confirmed by the orchestra or the resolving Harmony and that helps to establish the pitch in the listener's ear. because of the nature of the harmonics of the timpani (1- 5 - 8) it is not as clear as a conventional instrument.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I talk about a lot of things in my book, Stephen, but mostly focusing on things that players need composers to know. Some things are what I think composers need to know as well, from the perspective of a craft orchestrator.

[@JesseMilhoan]

I'd like to add that optimally, timpanists still use calf skin heads especially in the professional world, but for school settings plastic heads make things a lot easier as maintenance and cost is substantially lowered.

[@daviddavenport9350]

They also stay in tune....I cheat and use Renaissance heads on my baroque timpani, because I dont want to be retuning every 20 seconds.....

[@kevinnguyen552]

For anyone wondering, the backround music is "Symphonie fantastique (The March to the Scaffold)"

[@mardugeneral7813]

I've missed these classic orchestration online videos, glad they´re coming back!

[@DIDCHOI]

Love to see the return of Orchestration tips Thomas! I started orchestrating back in 2010 and quickly discovered your videos soon after and learned so much from them and the FB group!

[@jimgott119]

As a timpanist, I totally agree. Conductors such as Lorin Maazel have heavily (and unnecessarily) emended timpani parts of composers such as Beethoven, making them sound like Richard Strauss, and they lose their unique voice in the orchestra and instead become part of the string bass section.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Thanks so much for your perspective, Jim!

[@christopherpaul1810]

Great video that answers so many questions I had about Timpani and how to score the instrument effectively

[@cjjaxxon]

Though I'm not into orchestra music, I agree the Timpani is NOT a bass line instrument. And I agree with your assessment of the instrument here.

[@pedlar6839]

this, is, amazing, underrated channel

[@ThePumaHiFi]

excellent video. seeing some comments that confuse “Classical music “ compositions (which are specific for a theater and with an orchestra) with Drum Corps that are played in a field where the sound is different and the desired musical result is different

[@officaldungeons]

That “bloke in a pub” simile caught me so off guard lmao

[@wesleyballard860]

Thank you for making this! So interesting!

[@LuckyHamburger]

Oh god that Bartok segment looks like a nightmare

[@longlifetometal1995]

As long as the gauges work properly and you practice properly the choregraphy between playing and pedaling (usually, we pedal the middle timpani, leaving the lowest and highest timpani on F and Eb) , that's actually fairly easy to tune since it's mostly 4ths and 5ths. From then, it's only muscle memory

[@daviddavenport9350]

It is the only passage in the Concerto (aside from the rolling passage at the end of the finale) that takes a lot of practice to master....but you need really good professional drums to pull the piece off....

[@marekdrzewiecki3780]

Thank you Thomas!

[@fernandoceli5693]

Thanks life I came across this YT channel 🙏

[@j.lindback]

Just wondering, could it be that people using all those timpani parts in contemporary classical music really are looking for a kick drum, that the accentuation is really more important for them than the pitch, and that they add in all those pitch changes "because they can", or they "feel obliged to do so" since it's a pitched instrument? It is an interesting dilemma indeed.

[@daviddavenport9350]

Good thought Johan....a couple of Stravinsky and a couple of British composers substitute a bassdrum note to fill in a note that the timpanist cannot possibly retune....and that works fine.

[@mal2ksc]

As long as the timps aren't the only source of the bass line, it's also OK to occasionally play one of the other chord tones (particularly the third) in the timpani instead of the root. It will get hidden in the texture, because it is at least fitting to the harmony, but since it doesn't drop out, the "punch" isn't lost. It's not the same kind of punch as a kick drum. You may be right that a kick drum would be more what they have in mind as an overall effect, but who knows, maybe all the percussionists are busy and the union says the timpanist isn't allowed to hit anything else.

[@davidfinnamore3588]

Our church's percussion player once filled in for the cello at a moment's notice, sight-reading parts from Haydn and Mozart, and pulled it off brilliantly with great sensitivity. But it's a good thing there was no Bach that morning. lol.

[@JoelLaviolette]

Great video-thanks!

[@caterscarrots3407]

Thanks for making great videos. I think your videos are a major contributor to my improvement since last year as an orchestrator. I am orchestrating the Pathetique Sonata. I know Bruckner has already orchestrated the first movement of Pathetique Sonata op. 13, but the videos I find of this Bruckner orchestration always stop right at where the exposition goes into the development section. I have been told before that the changes that I have occuring with the predominant harmonies at beats 1 and 4 of each measure and the notes on the tympani will cause a tympani glissando. I am doubting it however, given how slow the tempo is in the section with quicker changes(tempo in that section is 30 BPM) Here are the first 4 measures of the Tympani part and the corresponding harmonies in the Beethoven sonata(also first 4 measures: Tympani: Bar 1: C, 2, 3, G, Bar 2: F, 2, 3, C, Bar 3: Eb, 2, 3, C, Bar 4: Eb, 2, 3, Bb Harmony in Sonata: Bar 1: Cm, 2, 3, G7, Bar 2: B°7, 2, 3, Cm, Bar 3: A°7, 2, 3, A°7, Bar 4, A°7, 2, 3, Bb7 The harmony might not be exactly correct in bars 3 and 4, but it illustrates my point. That is, that I am giving an accent to a harmony that is already there from the time that Beethoven wrote this sonata. Given that the tympani does nothing on beats 2 and 3 and that the tempo is at 30 BPM(that's where I tend to play the Pathetique Sonata introduction at), than even with the forte strike on the first beat, it should decay enough that there is no glissando on beat 4 and that likewise, the slow tempo combined with the quieter dynamic would mean no glissando into the next forte strike, right? It is only at faster tempos or in places where a tympani bass line fits that I have to worry about a glissando in the tympani, right? By the way, the Bb is below the C in my tympani part. Should I have the tympani thusly tuned in Eb while the rest of the orchestra is playing in C minor? Or can the tympani pedal be used to lower the pitch as well as raise it? Or would the manual adjustment from C to Bb be fast enough given the slow tempo and then the adjustment back to C would have plenty of time given that until the Allegro, I give the tympanist a break?

[@grailgnosticism2342]

Tis time to trim the timpani, thanks for the tip

[@bcbdrums]

Do you have opinions on Frank Ticheli’s (band composer) use of timpani?

[@rhymeswithyetiv2331]

Where can i find the piece at 5:47 I want to listen to these extra Planets from Gustav Holst?

[@jelleverest]

Do you have experience orchestrating for percussion bands? It is a vastly different sound and I cannot seem to find much guides for online.

[@mairaleikarte43]

2:52 1st timpanist A2, B2, E(!)3

[@conforzo]

I love the Timpani gliss in Bartok's Music for Strings, Celesta and Percussion.

[@daviddavenport9350]

I never understood that passage!

[@d0nnyr0n]

I think I have both issues. I try not to make them change to fast, often making it a rather boring part. In addition to this, I tend to try and use every instrument all the time, which leads to Timpani being very constant. I suppose that is something I will learn and refine with time. Thanks for the vids like these, they're very helpful to someone who has only ever written Concert Band or Small Ensemble pieces.

[@Aio-Project]

I love you just for the topic/title

[@panplayer]

Great video! I will say on the Bartok that most players set the outside drums and just pedal the inner 2.

[@daviddavenport9350]

Yes!!!! it is that way with the Nielsen 4th as well...

[@nncortes]

What is your opinion about Jean Sibelius's use of the Timpani? He uses it often, but he is a pretty conservative composer.

[@daviddavenport9350]

I never much cared for Sibelius' use of the timpani, although my first major teacher Cloyd Duff...LOVED Sibelius timpani parts...

[@toronado455]

very true

[@Michael-Oh]

Timpani of has a sonic advantage when it comes to sustained bass notes. Sibalius's timpani writing utilises smooth legato rolls that can be generated by the timpani. Rolling from one bass note to another with a natural crescendo sounds more powerful in a thick texture than a tuba or a double bass. When sustaining notes tuba players would run out off air and bass players will run out of bow, but timpanist can roll for as long as they need.

[@daviddavenport9350]

That is true...I just think Sibelius overdoes it.....

[@Michael-Oh]

@@daviddavenport9350 Yeah true especially in 7.

[@Aduysvmncmkouyf]

Here’s the thing, the note doesn’t sound still, if you want a sustained clear note that isn’t rumbling which lots of composers want out the bass instruments, Tuba/Contrabassoon/bass trombone/bass clarinet/string bass, would be your best option.

[@Michael-Oh]

@Aduysvmncmkouyf5864 I would disagree. If you asked a timpanist to play with sticks with no articulation then they would be able to produce a still smooth sound with those sticks. Korsakov, Tchaikovsky and Strauss often wrote for timpani in this way.

[@jmwoods190]

Bruckner also does this very frequently to a powerful effect.

[@josejrtuti]

Great video! Thanks. Just a technical note. In 4m30s if the viewer doesn't wear a headset (or have a subwoofer connected) the passage will seem to be muted :) the frequencies generated by the example are too low for the usual laptop loudspeaker.

[@katiehesse6578]

Just put a dedicated tuning person under the timpanist!

[@carminemattiamarino7911]

How is the introduction piece called?

[@onewhogetsbread9975]

where can i find the nibiru planets piece?

[@TheBardsCorner]

Possibly related question: when arranging a piece for romantic orchestra w/timpani down to string orchestra, would you consider giving some of the timpani’s part to the double bass for example? Or would you just let it out? Thanks

[@daviddavenport9350]

Depends on how important the timpani notes are to the whole.....

[@shayneoneill1506]

"pseudoscientifically" is going into my scores tempo markings from now on.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I demand a .00432% royalty - which can be paid in treating me to lunch someday.

[@MrInterestingthings]

I was so hoping to hear a timpani gliss.! I'm now going to search for extended timpani or other percussion instruments ! Berio didn't write a Sequenza for percussion or maybe he did.Research is the best friend of music lovers. Why does Holst use 2 timpani sets like Neilsen but only has themPlaying singly ?

[@daviddavenport9350]

Holst was dividing a single line between the two sets, so they should be placed next to one another in the orchestra. Nielsen was essentially writing a canon for two sets of timpani in the 4th, so they should be some distance apart. Note the double glissando for the two timpanists at the end of the 4th, unique in the history of music....and this symphony was written in 1914...THE SAME YEAR AS THE PLANETS

[@michaellaumusic]

Hey. Sill question, but have to ask it. Should the pitch of the Timpani used be the same pitch a what's in the bass? So of C is in the bass of a C chord, it should be C. Similarly, if using a 2nd inversion where G is in the bass C/G, should G be used? Just general guidelines. Thx

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Not a silly question at all. Do some score-reading of the classical to modern eras, and you'll see all kinds of inversions that trick the ear into assuming the root has been played. The most common are the dominant and the minor third. The major 3rd less often, and usually when the scoring of the chord over it is a 6/3. But an inverted chord need not be scored in the orchestra for these substitutions to work in the timpani.

[@debug8377]

which recording did you use for the background piece "marche au supplice" from "symphonie fantastique"? i have never heard it played in that fast of a tempo

[@OrchestrationOnline]

It's in the credits. DuPage SO w/Barbara Schubert conducting.

[@debug8377]

@@OrchestrationOnline thanks!

[@peytonbrennan614]

W video, very captivating

[@NailikNoteworks]

That was informative. But I gotta ask; Do I spy Bionicles sitting on that shelf? :P

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I'm not saying that it's aliens. But yeah, it's aliens.

[@RockStarOscarStern634]

@UCSt_ZRe_mla4tRgYC_GNElQ It would be awesome if the Timpani can Double the Bass line for tonal enhancement. You'd need a special set of Chromatic Timpani that can also play melodies and are ideal for transcription cause imagine hearing the Franck Violin Sonata played on the Timpani.

[@MattMusicianX]

That old T-rod timpani is smiling :)

[@claudioestay5783]

I don't know if I agree with your statement. Lots of parts were missing, especially in the Richard Strauss repertoire. Operas like Salome, Elektra, Rosenkavalier have tremendously influenced the repertoire. Everything has been a back and forth between good new instruments, good players and improvement in general. The timpani can be a great bass line instrument. And your exposition of the glissandi is exactly what a student should learn. There should be no excuses in the glissandi! It's practically a thing of honor ;) I think that the German timpani with the Berlin pedal, with sprocket and kalfskin help a lot in the true sound of these instruments. Unfortunately, the ludwig model "gas" pedal timpani that you are presenting do not offer the precision of the instruments that I am talking about.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Hi Claudio! Great to get another perspective from a timpanist! Give the video another watch. I'm not saying never to write a bass line on timpani. I'm saying that one should use caution and a heightened sense of craft when enlisting timpani to do any kind of extended/exposed scoring, and to not default to timpani on the bass in every tutti or climax. I want your moments to be spectacular and memorable, not dulled through overuse. 🙂 As to presenting any kind of pedal, that is not my intention - just the photos available to me at the time I made the video (and being realistic about what's available to a lot of timpanists). I work with players who use the Berlin pedal or something like it quite often here in New Zealand and with clients internationally.

[@joshconklinmusic3856]

What's the piece playing in the background?

[@mattheasboelter5217]

At least in the beginning it's Berlioz Symphony Fantastique.

[@markchapman6800]

Specifically, the second-last movement from Berlioz' _Symphony Fantastique_ , the _Marche au supplice_ ( _March to the Scaffold_ ).

[@paulblichmann2791]

Some tymps you can't find a pitch in the tone, or the overtones suggest an entirely different pitch. But some are fully tonal. Undersized kettles for the note, head material, worn heads, too hard mallet? Just guesses.

[@laurencefinston7036]

I think it's nice that timpani are tuneable but for myself, I would prefer not to use too many timpani in a score and to avoid tuning changes. The tuning mechanism certainly adds to the cost of the instrument and the more complex a construction is, the more likely it is that something will go wrong. I'd rather spend the money on aspects of the instrument that improve the actual sound. That's why I have a Bb and an F French horn and not a double horn. Of course, that limits what you can play, but there are always costs and benefits. I am also somewhat suspicious of pedals on instruments, excepting the piano, effects pedals for electric guitar, etc., because of the time it takes to actuate them, e.g., harp pedals. A concert harp is out of my price range, to say nothing of a set of timpani, and the only instrument I have with pedals of this type is a pedal-steel guitar and it would definitely have to be carefully scored, if one wanted to have a player use the pedals and especially the knee levers. I wouldn't want to require a player to have particularly fast hands or feet, nor would I want any score of mine to only be playable by professional musicians. The same applies to page turns, which I particularly dislike, not having particularly fast hands myself.

[@hiiexist479]

Me wanting to play careless whisper on timpani for my school talent show: *well yes but actually no*

[@OrchestrationOnline]

😂

[@goofiest-ahh]

"balance on head, operate pedals with hands and kick timpani" 😂

[@tucker6072]

I had this epiphany one day and it was so mind opening lol, but yeah I've noticed timpani is not really a BASS instrument.

[@composerdoh]

I just noticed your tempo marking and title page "The Extra Planets- Pseudoscientifically Q=123.7" lmao

[@redicendia1355]

when are we getting orchestration 105?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Slave-driver. ;) Late this year if I'm lucky, early next year otherwise.

[@redicendia1355]

OrchestrationOnline can't wait!

[@MaestroTJS]

Is it necessary to write "tune __ to __" or is that just left up to performers to figure out now?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Mostly leave that to the timpanist - but work out on your own whether you're making allowances for all the changes.

[@MaestroTJS]

@@OrchestrationOnline Thank you for your response!

[@daviddavenport9350]

We always analyze the parts and write our own tuning schemes.....

[@Histgyph]

It is helpful for less experienced players and sightreading.

[@tj-co9go]

This should be obvious for any orchestrator but is a good reminder anyway

[@mrsnooz1]

holst could have just used e flat (for tonic and subsominant) and b flat (for dominant) for all those notes, it might sound even better

[@daviddavenport9350]

I think Holst's own Wind Band arrangement of Jupiter does something like that...his thinking was that most Bands of the time had access to far fewer timpani than say the London Philharmonic......

[@seanplayscl]

Using the March to the scaffold as background music without talking about it's timpani use :(

[@rosiefay7283]

If anything, I'd like an orchestrator or timpanist's opinion on Berlioz's timpani writing in Scene in the Fields. Startling writing for 4 timpanists with 1 drum each. But in every performance I've heard, the effect is muddy. Could this be a case of the master orchestrator Berlioz overestimating how clear 4 drums could sound when being played together?

[@daviddavenport9350]

@@rosiefay7283 Berlioz also wrote for three separate timpanists in his Overture to Benvenuto Cellini...each playing one drum....G,B,D....it sounds quite good!

[@lonard7221]

I have a question: how many different notes can a timpani play ?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Effectively, two pitches per player. Read my chapter in 100 MORE Orchestration Tips no. 62 Timpani “Double Stops”

[@lonard7221]

@@OrchestrationOnline Thank you!

[@lonard7221]

@@OrchestrationOnlineI'm a little confused, is it possible to play these notes with a timpani or modern timpani ? C, F, Ab, Bb, F#

[@OrchestrationOnline]

@@lonard7221 It's possible to play any pitches on timpani from C below the bass staff to A at the top of the staff (and higher with a piccolo timpani). For five pitches, you'll need a 5th drum in addition to the usual set of 4, or some quick tuning on one of the drums.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

@@lonard7221 Watch my video "Timpani Tuning Shortcuts" for more details.

[@matlactliacatl]

Timpani is my favorite orchestral instrument...

[@lukasrba1]

It´s 0 string BASS

[@lawrence18uk]

Timpanists like Beethoven for a reason... 🤣🤣

[@ThomasDawkins88]

If I could play only one timpani part for the rest of my life, it would be Beethoven 5. G and C in all four movements, but it's what he does with G and C that's so magical.

[@lawrence18uk]

@@ThomasDawkins88 yeah he's so totally not ashamed of asking the timpani to play the major third of a chord... whereas other composers would ask the timpani to retune. And in the ninth symphony he asks the timpani to play the minor third but when it does that it also often swings harmony back to to the relative major 🙂

[@rosiefay7283]

@@lawrence18uk Why be ashamed of asking the timpanist to play the third of a chord? It's common for them to play the 7th of V7 of V, because that's also the tonic.

[@Quotenwagnerianer]

Beethoven's timpani writing I consider still unrivaled.

[@MaestroTJS]

@@lawrence18uk This may come out wrong but I am actually being serious: what is it about playing the third of the chord that makes it so interesting for you?

[@daviddavenport9350]

One should have told John Williams about such an approach....of course, his movie scores were meant to be done piecemeal in recording....not played straight through as a concert piece....you see top professional players using multiple timpani just to be able to play the parts....

[@michael18276]

Timpani is a tenor instrument.

[@daviddavenport9350]

Actually you are correct!

[@sivadepilif]

Richard Strauss didn't know that LOL...

[@daviddavenport9350]

No he didnt!

[@clauswirnsperger983]

I fear no man... but that bartok passage... it scares me

[@daviddavenport9350]

That is not the hardest passage Bartok wrote.......the 2nd Piano Concerto and the Violin Concerto are even harder in my estimation....

[@SoFallsWichitaFalls]

"...and lead not the orchestrator into the temptation of writing what doth computer sound samples can do, but deliver us from evils of a poorly written timpani part.'"

[@ppheard1254]

Technically its one of those tuned bass percussion instruments

[@OrchestrationOnline]

The video is about whether to frequently write involved bass lines involved bass lines in the timpani part. It's not about whether the range of the timpani is in the bass of the orchestra, which obviously it is.

[@nicolasadornetto5428]

ALL instruments are BASS! SLAP like if you agree.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

All instruments are bass if you use "bass face" when you play them.

[@GreenBoy9000]

I mean... Who said it WAS a bass instrument? I mean, it's in the bass register, but....

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Did you miss the point of the video? The scoring approach of developing composers often treat it as if it were, right? So it's helpful to point out that it's not as the basis of a deeper understanding of the instrument.

[@GreenBoy9000]

@@OrchestrationOnline I didn't. Sort of.

[@AndrewGordonBellPerc]

Timpanists have gotten better to the point where the bartok should be trivial. In general what I've found is contemporary piece tend to be either ridiculously impossible or trivially easy both of which are both to be avoided, however I find the latter less enjoyable. P.S. referring to each drum as an individual kettle isnt something I've personally heard and it sounds odd to my ear

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I wouldn't call the Bartok trivial. More like fundamental. :) As to "kettles," that's pretty common among some players but not others who'll call them "drums." God help me if I start using the word "timpanum" to refer to a single kettledrum.

[@AndrewGordonBellPerc]

@@OrchestrationOnline that's a fair assessment of the bartok. To expand my previous thoughts I think a lot of orchestrators try and figure out too much for the timpanist (change this drum to this note at this time). I think the best practice is to just write what you want for timpani and let us figure out the logistics

[@MichaelPuterbaugh]

I think orchestrators should work out pitch changes as they work, to check that what they're writing is playable, but they shouldn't be engraved into the part.

[@padraicfanning7055]

What about Michael Daugherty’s “Raise the Roof”?

[@daviddavenport9350]

Standard rep...as is Stravinsky's Le Sacre du Printemps.....difficult standard rep though....

[@austinshoupe3003]

So, the overall point is fine and needs to be said. Don't write melodies if you don't know what you are doing. But timpani are a bass instrument. I think the point you wanted to make was whether or not timpani are a tuned percussion instrument or a percussive string bass. Given their relatively aggressive articulation and noisy overtones, they should be treated like a percussion instrument. But there are a lot of problems in the video. A lot of your historical information is inaccurate/misapplied. Some of your thoughts on performance practice are assuming the timpanists isn't a professional, such as the glissando conversation. It's roughly the same as saying you shouldn't write for trombone because they might glissando. Timpanists can sure as hell hide/eliminate a glissando. We have a number of tactics for doing it. Most college undergrads learn these skills. I'm also always bothered by the overuse conversation about percussion. No other instrument has this asterisk over them. I would love to be treated like a part of the orchestra rather than a novelty. Essentially, this video rides the line between making a good point and ensuring percussion writing doesn't advance to match the increasing capability of instruments and performers. I really wish this video was aimed more at how to write busy lines effectively rather than advocating that we don't advance and stay in the past.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Nothing could be further from the truth than your summation at the end of your comment. While this video is cautionary, it doesn't forbid anything. It just points out some consequences of taking timpani for granted. I've heard very active involved timpani scoring that fit the music perfectly. And I've heard timpani that was so overused as to become trivial. It really depends on the context of the music. The point of the video is the frame of reference for the developing composer and orchestrator as they move forward. Of course they can embrace any kind of scoring they like. But evaluating thousands of scored from student composers as I have, you begin to see a trend - and that is a general misperception of the roles and abilities of timpanists. The end result is textures out of balance, overemphasis of certain lines, complete lack of intuition about the factor of harmonic resonance being cancelled out or exaggerated, and timpanists killing themselves to accomplish a subtle line that's just getting absorbed into bass pizzicato anyway. The best "busy lines" I've seen scored for timpani appear to be the result of an evolved perspective of the instrument as the result of careful observation and practical knowledge, not to mention working with the players. And that can take a while to develop. All I'm encouraging here is to start one's understanding of timpani from a baseline, and then to move forward with caution and, if possible, interaction with the player. If some timpanists find this to be a bit prissy and hand-wringing, so be it. Other timpanists, like those who advised me on the writing of this tip, have their own perspective which is reflected in this tip, admittedly imperfectly through the filter of the writer.

[@daviddavenport9350]

You will note that the low F in the first full measure, and the Ab in the 3rd full bar are noticeably out of tune.....and I would quibble with the Dd and G# later in the passage....and the thing is....this passage was not badly played at all! So...if you are happy with near intonation....well then write like this.....(I always found Bartok far more interesting to play than to listen to....dont care much for his aesthetic)....

[@RyanAlexanderBloom]

I’m not a pro timpanist by any means, so when writing for people like me continuous pitch change is likely to result in terrifyingly bad intonation. If your piece needs a virtuoso timpanist you should expect it to be played correctly only in rare circumstances. Maybe at a prestigious premier by a very good orchestra will it sound right, but subsequent performances by students, community orchestras, semi-pros or other lower caliber players will be awful. There is generally not an over abundance of world-class timpani talent floating around.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Thanks for the very honest comment, Ryan!

[@daviddavenport9350]

I have even known orchestras the likes of Chicago and Cleveland to divide badly written parts between two timpanists.....I did that on one occasion at Indiana University.....a first rate timpani/Orchestral school....

[@justinharvey2691]

**Confused melodic percussion noises*

[@AndreyRubtsovRU]

Melodic lines on timpani is an abomination.

[@jhowe5571]

Davie504 disagrees! It's a BASS! All instruments are BASS. If not then, it's illegal! So, it's a BASS or he will send the police after you! Get BASS!