Ott Jud's Ringen, At the Arms; Lesson 1

This is our interpretation of the first two techniques from wrestling at the arms covered in Ott Jud's teachings. We do our best with these videos, but make no claims to perfection. We are works in progress. Please enjoy share with others. Thanks for watching!
For more information, please consult Ott Jud's teachings, transcribed and translated on the Wiktenauer.

[@thalld89]

Hey guys just couple of tips on the first throw... Start the throw with a stronger pull of your opponent's arm(and keep pulling!), step between his legs rather than outside, and change levels by bending the knees rather than the hips(think squat instead of just bending over). This should pull him onto your shoulders better and make it easier to lift your opponent. Video here shows a nice execution of this throw as well as some variations on how to dump your opponent. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nnO2e6J9jtJ4odE The beginning of this video explains the level change used in modern wrestling for techniques like this kzbin.info/www/bejne/iZSTaqKVftqSlac Aaron, I hope all is well with you. Are you planning to be at Longpoint this year? If so we should find some time to wrestle again! - Tim Hall, VAF

[@hkdharmon]

On they first throw, try this. Step between his feet instead of behind. Also, reach through between the leg much deeper so that his groin is on the top of your shoulder instead of on the bicep. This will require a slightly deeper squat, but you will not need to lift as much if you also extend his left arm further past your neck. That is how we do it in jujitsu.

[@NuggetsForBrains5]

a basic firemans carry

[@herring3997]

Trying to take down a guy who’s 208 centimeters while being 170cm 😂

[@rgarcia7392]

On the second play (the trip), the technique looks like it would be easier if the person being thrown actually stepped towards the thrower with the leg that was going to be tripped. I would imagine that the thrown player would be pushing with his right arm and stepping with his right leg. The throwing player would then pull that right arm and trip that right leg with his left.

[@carlosensei1]

First of all...Excellent Videos, I do traditional Okinawan Isshin-Ryu Karate, and find this material very similar to a form from our system called SEIUCHIN, which deals with wrestling. It is actually uncanny how similar it is. Thank you for sharing them. I have been viewing all 7 of your video lessons and found them truly useful, entertaining, and insightful. You guys rock!!

[@SwordCarolina]

Awesome! Thanks!

[@SwordCarolina]

Yes, Study in Steel is going strong, no plans of stopping. You can do it, man. Just have to find out what works for you and in your area-to-be.

[@docjjp]

Great video, guys. I've really enjoyed all of your work so far. Thanks a lot! I'm getting a general feel from both the longsword and the ringen that the larger combatant has a significant advantage in that he can dictate first action to some extent. Longer reach obviously means you have the opportunity to offend your opponent before he is in range to offend you. Greater size / strength means you have the advantage in the push / pull, and the smaller opponent is going to have to try to adjust to your motion and use your force against you. Am I oversimplying or overstating?

[@SwordCarolina]

docjjp I agree with you, though the advantage is more pronounced in Ringen than when fighting with equal weapons. You can counter strength with skill and speed, and vice versa. If two fighters are equal in skill and speed, the stronger of the two will likely win. Parallels can be made with the other two qualities.

[@skylerburton9903]

Really cool stuff! Hope you keep up these videos, I enjoy and learn a lot from them.

[@1066BigDaddy]

This was awesome, gents! This'll come in handy with my own training. Thanks!

[@williamdelsolar4857]

Regarding spreading his weight on your back, another way to look at is to align your center of mass beneath his to lift him. Also consider stepping with your left leg between his legs rather than behind his legs to see what it does for body mechanics.

[@SwordCarolina]

William del Solar Stepping between his legs is also seen in very similar techniques, though in this case we are trying to follow the text as closely as possible.

[@hkdharmon]

Which text ads they using? Wiktenauer had no illustrations and did not mention foot position for the first throw.

[@SwordCarolina]

My mistake.

[@hkdharmon]

BTW, I really like the video.

[@SwordCarolina]

Thanks!

[@diphyllum8180]

Have you guys ever looked into Chinese internal martial arts, and the exercise Push Hands in particular? It's interesting how you guys are saying Ringen is the fundamental exercise which provides a basis for all fencing, because Push Hands has a similar relationship to Tai Chi Sword. They're far from the same, and yet the premise is identical... pull each other off balance... but whereas the European styles place a lot of emphasis on fast-twitch muscle strength, and are mostly frontweighted, Tai Chi and her sister martial arts (Bagua, Xingyi) are mostly backweighted, focus far more on slow twitch muscles, and gets a whole lot more subtle in terms of structure, weight transfer and balance. It seems like there's very little communication at the moment between Chinese and European traditional martial arts, and potentially a lot they could learn from one another

[@Ithkrul]

***** So I do CMA and HEMA, interestingly. I notice a TON of similarities, both in practice and form.

[@Ithkrul]

***** So I do CMA and HEMA, interestingly. I notice a TON of similarities, both in practice and form.

[@diphyllum8180]

Ithkrul Cool. I'd be interested in hearing a compare and contrast between CMA and HEMA... it seems like CMA gets ignored a lot, or even devalued and insulted by a lot of Western martial artists. It seems that's more in MMA though, and HEMA is much more open to Chinese techniques, so I look forward to cooperation between CMA and HEMA which transcends that bickering and bigotry we occasionally see from MMA guys

[@Ithkrul]

***** There are a ton of similarities in "rules" between Shuai Jiao and Ringen. I feel as though Ringen is somewhere between Grecco-Roman and Shuai Jiao/Mongolian wrestling than anything else. I am reading through Jessica Finley's book right now. I swear some of the moves are the exact same in Shuai Jiao. A lot of the foot work is very similar to Tai Chi as well. Some of the body angles and posture are very similar. Now there are some ideological differences in some concepts. But in practice there are more similarities. Because ultimately we are looking at human beings, swinging metal things at each other. And the body only moves so many ways. MMA offers the best "most realistic" sport fighting platform. While everything is situational, and competition and "defense" are not things I would ever tell anyone to separate from their pedagogy. It is important to test what you know, the best you can, against other people and CMA are notorious for ignoring this important method of actually fighting other people.

[@neohenry8292]

Fascinating! What physical training would you recommend for wrestling? I'm also curious about the situation of when the opponent doesn't want to arm wrestle you and just want to punch you.

[@davinelLinvega]

Neo Henry Oddly enough, punch blocking and closing the distance to wrestling range is rarely mentioned in the manuscripts. You could try the Codex Wallerstein for some ideas of how to do this.

[@SwordCarolina]

Neo Henry Lots of body weight training: pushups, situps, pullups, squats, etc. Plenty of partner drills to get comfortable being extremely close to people. If someone punches me, I would block and try to grapple his arms. Arm wrestling does not have to be agreed on by both; I can just seize his arm.

[@davinelLinvega]

Which version of Otts Text are you using? Because in the 44 A 8 the fireman carry is the second throw, so you have one whole throw before that :P

[@SwordCarolina]

Davinel Linvega And what throw would that be? I've got a scan of the original...

[@davinelLinvega]

Sorry it's not a throw but an arm wrench: So var mit deiner lincken hant aus seine~ rechten arm~ vñ begreif ÿm vnden seinen rechten elpogen | vnd zeuch den zu° dir | vnd mit der rechten do du sein lincke hant Inn hast stos Im den arm~ von dir so verenckstu Im den arm~ ~

[@SwordCarolina]

Davinel Linvega Yeah, we did that. It is the setting for the two techniques in this video, and in the next one coming.