Our 2024 Shortstop Tier List (with Jolly Olive)

[@sporer_]

Jake: "You're a young man enthusiast" Jolly: "....Can we cut that?" looool

[@thelonelyphish]

Jake completely overlooked Ha Seong Kim's glove when talking about the most important defensive position. Ha Seong Kim is a gold glove caliber defender at short, he has been his whole career, it almost seems like Jake forgot Kim was a shortstop before he was at 2nd

[@Crunchy_Zen]

MLB Career so far: 21 SS: 35 2B: 21 22 SS: 131 2B: 0 23 SS: 20 2B: 106 So it's 186 at short and 127 at 2B. I would argue his 23 season is what would put him in the top tiers. He was incredible last year and I watched a lot of Padre losses in 23. So to me, Jake's argument that he has to prove that he can be that guy at short makes sense. He's not like Mookie though, where we don't know his ability to play there, so I get your point, and you are right about how he said it.

[@thelonelyphish]

@@Crunchy_Zen personally I've got Kim getting gold glove at short this year but what he said about his bat is true. He hasn't proved he's in the same tier as the others but what Jake said about his bat being "capped" seems really unfair, he's been improving his bat every single year, I don't see why it won't improve this year.

[@mattyweiss4871]

Actually that’s a great call out, his defence was always going to be what he was known for as a shortstop when he was coming over. His breakout year with the bat happened when he went to 2nd instead of short, which could just be coincidental. But after the whole Gleyber thing a few years ago, it’s something interesting to keep an eye on for the future

[@thelonelyphish]

@@mattyweiss4871 I don't think Torres is comparable to Kim, Torres had a stellar 2019 then fell off hard while Kim's bat started poor and gradually got better every year, he's consistently improved, there's no reason to believe his bat is going to suddenly fall off because he went back to shortstop

[@thelonelyphish]

@@mattyweiss4871 and what is your argument in the first place, players get worse at hitting when they move to shortstop? Why would that be? Workload? Kim was effectively a utility player last year, he played 20 games at short and 30 at 3rd while also having a breakout year offensively. I just don't see the argument.

[@iamrandom44]

You guys should do a tier list of every player that ended up in the S-tier

[@TheALI3N]

Almost putting Bobby Witt Jr in the 3rd tier is a criminal take, but glad that he stayed in the "A" tier

[@OWENOTFOUND24]

This is 4 month ago as well

[@pwnDonkey]

“You’re a young man enthusiast”

[@mcheath21]

“Can we cut that?”

[@Bruc_eTheBear]

Gunnar had pretty much the same stat line that Bichette has had for 3+ years in a row. Bo's defense is clearly lacking, but he also improved the most out of any infielder in DRS going from a -14 in 2022 to a positive 5 in 2023. I think that Bo could have switched spots with Gunnar

[@Dune24]

I hate the blue jays but honestly this is kinda fair. I think they could’ve stayed on the same tier-especially when you look at OPS+.

[@micahsmith9024]

I mean they're the same level offensively and gunnar is a better defender

[@TheJaaron99]

I think elevating Seager was the best way to thin out that S tier. Turner and Lindor make sense together because Turners bat & Lindors glove give each one the edge over the other. But Seager 1 dotted, both of their OPS were below .806 and that’s more than enough to make up for his average defense. Also WS MVP.

[@docscards]

The Mookie Rule needs to be a thing. A player can only be S-Tier on a single positional ranking... he can't possibly be in the S-Tier conversation on every ranking... can he?

[@johnmaster3663]

Mookie Betts talent allows him to be S-Tier everywhere

[@MattD1234]

Can he play baseball?

[@Celticsandbraveslover]

That is stupid lol

[@calvinhedges2909]

CAN HE???!

[@davidgilbert7994]

Sure he can

[@lachlaneberle2889]

Bobby should have won a gold glove last year and he should be S tier

[@generallukeproductions]

In my opinion, Mookie and Corey belong in their own tier above Lindor and Trea. Both of them could win MVP and you wouldn’t bat an eye. If Lindor or Trea won MVP you’d be really surprised

[@kyleknapp1985]

Bullshit . He’s played 2 games.

[@thekingofpingas]

As a Braves fan, you have Orlando in the Perfect Spot. He is the literal definition of Average Starting Shortstop. He had a great 1st half last year to make him an All Star, but his 2nd Half decline brought his overall numbers back to his career norms. Hes always around 100 OPS + and Defense is also around avg, maybe slightly above Average. I can tell you the Braves are in the process of eventually upgrading from him long term though. They gave up the biggest International Signing Bouns of $5 Million a couple months ago to a kid named Jose Perdomo, who they expect to be their future Shortstop sooner rather than latter.

[@CadChamberlain]

I love that Bobby Witt Jr. and Gunnar Henderson sat in the tier named 'Trea Turner' below Trea Turner for half of this.

[@armychowmein8021]

These debates are so fun

[@korbinsworld24]

22:11 Dansby is the 3rd best SS in his own division.

[@joewestistrashproductions5422]

Bro thinks he’s a comedian

[@andrewduncan3214]

ha seong kim certainly underrated

[@JoltingZ]

Even as a Jays fan. The question in regards to Bo's defense is still valid and I agree here. Going from leading the Majors in Errors in 2021/2022 (combined 47 (24/23) down to 8. A 15 Error improvement. So we shall see with the departure of Chapman. If it stays around 8-14 or ballooned to 20-30.

[@S0appy-t8w]

I mean errors don’t tell the whole story

[@benbrown3973]

@@S0appy-t8w I totally agree but coming from a jays fan that watches almost every game, all the advanced metrics say hes average at least (5 DRS -2OAA 4.1UZR), and the eye test shows hes improving and his bat is just too good all he does is hit and is the most valuable asset in the lineup

[@Bruc_eTheBear]

@@S0appy-t8w he also improved 19 DRS last year, best of any infielder :)

[@JoltingZ]

My point is I want to see Bo Bichette without a Gold Glove infielder beside him. Marcus Semien at Second Base in 2021, Matt Chapman was robbed of a Gold Glove in 2022. (still not over that one) and a Gold Glove in 2023. That's where my point lies. 2023 Bo Bichette was the best season he's had collectively. Will it continue in 2024.

[@kotch35]

Story's arm is finally healthy again. He's going to have a great season.

[@nathan55699]

Oof

[@ayydubs987]

would it help you guys to semi-rank the players within individual tiers? i’m thinking something like, the first player on a tier can move up a level if they improve while the last player on a tier could be demoted down if they struggle. just an idea!

[@lionelrust4896]

23 year old Bobby Witt was a rookie who had one good year. 25 year old Bo Bichette was in his 4th year and a proven consistent producer. Bo led the AL in hits at the same age as Bobby Witt's rookie season

[@Limptriscut]

Defensive woos from Bo don't help. Bobby Whitt prolly has more upside this year

[@YouTubeChannell7]

Bo is extremely overrated offensively, his numbers look good because that’s end of season numbers, he has horrendous months of being one of the worst hitters, and then months of producing he’s far from consistent unfortunately and is a jays fan, I watch this each day, I just can’t agree that he’s even a top 10 shortstop, and yeah his defence is beyond bad. Huge knockoff, if he’s a 2B he would be up more, maybe top 10, shortstops should be defence first then focus on hitting, it’s a very valuable position

[@alexthomas7923]

Bro what are you saying. Bobby Witt has had 2 seasons and has only gotten better from his already pretty good rookie year. Probably would’ve won a AL ROY in many years it just happened that he was a rookie the same year as J-Rod and adley

[@daltongorham6768]

How you feeling now?

[@davidott886]

As a Tigers fan, I need the Tigers to eat the 98 mil from DFA’ing Baez, because literally anyone with a pulse could be a more impactful shortstop than him.

[@Bruc_eTheBear]

im a Jays fan in a Tigers house and I hear constant grumbling about some "old geezer shortstop falling asleep at the plate"

[@lilflo36]

as a cubs fan who enjoyed his prime…i’m sorry

[@jacksonroberts2205]

Perdomo and Arcia belonged in a tier together. “2023 All-Stars in Name Only.”

[@yardsaler5417]

Bo Bichette Boutta be in A tier at least

[@baileysmith4744]

i cant have Lindor and Turner on the same tier as Betts and Seager. either Seager is on his own and Betts moves to Kenny Pickett (he already took S tier on what could be his other main position if he cant pick it), or Betts and Seager share the top tier and Lindor and Trea have their own tier below it (could argue for Witt and Henderson to join them, but thats a next years tier list kind of move if all works out)

[@peterharris6409]

Gunnar Henderson 8th place MVP and rookie of the year. Pretty nice season. Didn’t realize it was THAT good. 6 WAR is nuts. Really just needs to work on the Walk/Strikeout ratio

[@777ACES]

Seager is the best SS in baseball. Having Mookie ahead of him is crazy

[@willholloway8590]

Dodgers fan here , idk why mookie is getting handed these 1-3 best ss title.I just watched my beloved former shortstop make a mockery of every team in the playoffs. Seager is #1

[@777ACES]

@@willholloway8590 mookie is sure fire hall of famer and one of the best to ever do it. But I agree with you, let’s watch him play the position first. Good luck this season!

[@grimpo635]

Seager has one 119 game season of being the best SS in baseball. It's possible he'll continue that this season, but if he's more like his career norm, he's probably not #1

[@777ACES]

@@grimpo635 well. It’s a 2024 tier list based on what they did in 2023.. so

[@grimpo635]

​@@777ACES It's a 2024 tier list based on how good they're expected to be in 2024. JP Crawford was better than Trea Turner in 2023, but nobody's putting him in S tier

[@azwells]

Bo’s defence was WAY batter in 2023 than in previous seasons.

[@goadedbear]

Arcia is weird because SS is a very important position, but the Braves really just want him to be league average and they are happy. Compared to rest of the league he's meh, but he is exactly what his team needs him to be.

[@hippfyre4704]

No way yall are starting this off with the teirs named S, A, B, and C "what are you doing baby"

[@jaredfreeley8283]

Jp and Bo would be a nice tier. Jp better if anything

[@sunsunavery4237]

in rick voice : “best i can do is mo bamba”

[@caseyaicher3050]

Jolly driving me nuts this episode lmao, where is the Bo love coming from

[@AgentAlpha0]

Oniel is considerably better than Elly and Witt is S-Tier

[@karlapants]

Jolly what is that Mr. Met tattoo!!???why is he sad? Lol never mind that is the perfect Met tattoo

[@TheTEN24]

Trea Turner definitely has an argument for S tier. Glad Lindor is an easy s tier cause the guy does it all and does it consistently.

[@ayydubs987]

he’s a terrible defender, so no he does not, lmfao

[@yommish]

@@ayydubs987 huh? Among all SS over the last 3 years he is 2nd in outs above average, 7th in defensive runs saved, 2nd or 3rd in most other metrics. You don’t put up back-to-back 6 WAR seasons at SS if you’re a terrible defender. Why am I even replying to this

[@alexparker3277]

Jolly had the right idea @29:20

[@N0isybag]

By far the most challenging group to rank.

[@kangaroodude34]

why is Paul Dejong the Giants rep lol that should be Luciano or Ahmed

[@dominickdicarlo1191]

Been waiting for this one.

[@echeaux]

SP Tier List Mega Ep When?? Opening Day???

[@kevinmcdowell11]

Cruz Missiles is a better name for that tier, just saying

[@Indicadominant07]

Valid points about trea from a Phillies fan.

[@gregorygoodman1842]

The Dansby disrespect is crazy

[@anthonytribendis6484]

Missed the perfect tier listing name “young gunnars”…

[@Eli-bg7ig]

Imo u can’t put Mookie at S because there are ppl we know are elite at SS, I’m sure Mookie will be great but we simply dk what his defense will look like

[@qwuzzy]

Kim is A tier and it's not even really a debate, sorry

[@YouTubeChannell7]

As a jays fan my whole life, Bo is severely overrated, he’s a top 15 Shortstop not a top 10. His glove is EXTREMELY suspect, and his bat is consistent year to year when u look at the end of the season numbers but it’s usually him having a beyond fantastic month then being one of the worst hitters there are in the game the next. He should be in the 3rd or 4th tier at best. Personally in order of who I would take above him: Seager.Turner.Lindor Witt Jr.Henderson.Swanson Kim.Crawford.Adames Cruz.Edman. Then I would put Bichette

[@jaredfreeley8283]

Story’s fielding was ridiculous last year in the short amt he played

[@asdfaeou]

I just don't think Elly Is near O'Neill yet.

[@bensweetra4871]

I share a birthday with Judge Judy

[@jackiemoon5906]

Watching this in June and Jonny take of Bichette over Henderson and Witt did not age great

[@marcusc1121]

I don’t hate Abrams placement but he’s better than all the guys he’s in the tier with.

[@tapastro]

Ha-seong truly the forgotten man, disgraceful placement.

[@barstoolking11]

How are we ranking Arcia in the bottom third of shortstops? Just because you painted yourself into a corner by putting him in with Story and Anderson? Even the metrics you all noted were around league average at worst (and he was an all-star last year, even if that was better than he's usually been). Not sure how that can look right to you, given your own commentary and his stats. He certainly projects with the back half of the "Hope." line

[@Mattybaseball_90]

We haven’t even seen mookie at short outside of this first game. Y’all stop!!

[@luketheroux3358]

jake is sleeping on kim like crazy

[@nickclark1026]

Can he pick it was my fantasy team this year haha

[@secondaccount6749]

I hate Anderson being where he is with Baez at the bottom. Baez has the better resume and wasn’t nearly as awful as Anderson. Both are in dark places rn but Anderson is WAY too high.

[@DRay210]

I cant wait til Jake tells Jolly dude shut up with your bad takes

[@bologna_lover]

not having bobby witt jr at s-tier is literally the dumbest thing in the world, bro has a 30/30 season and is the only reason the royals didn't win 7 games last year "yeah no he's good but not great"

[@asdfaeou]

How you got "Good not great" from what they said is wild to me. Jake basically said Bobby will probably be S Tier next season.

[@bologna_lover]

@@asdfaeou look I wasn’t paying very close attention, I had to mute like half the video since I was in a meeting, I just saw Bobby Witt not in s-tier and the demons took over

[@Raxiums]

He's only done it once. He does it again this year and he will be S tier.

[@RileyMerlino]

They also put Julio in A tier for center fielders. I feel like Julio and Bobby will always be linked because they came in at the same time and are both perennial 30/30 guys. I expect them both to be S tier next year

[@corithekid72]

This is disrespectful af to Bobby

[@britw1407]

jp crawford pod

[@WHlSKYtx]

Seager is the best SS on the planet

[@Zachrdoodle]

‘Nick Ahmed’ for the Giants is criminal, use Marco Luciano you cowards

[@stephenmacfarlane5061]

Underrating Peña’s glove. He wore gold in 2022

[@Bruc_eTheBear]

he did take a pretty big step back though :( 2022: 16 DRS 2023: 5 DRS

[@TwimsFan]

Calling Mookie an inner circle HOFer at this stage in his career is as bold as it gets

[@kevinmcdowell11]

I think by bWAR over past 3 years, bichette is at like 14.5 vs JP at 11.5. Bo also had more bWAR than Witt last year.

[@Lookout1000]

I think it’s hard to put Arcia as a bottom 10 shortstop coming off the year he had. I know it’s a 2024 list, so if the other guys in that tier are similar to Arcia, I think it probably would have been better to put them between “Young and I wanna see more / Hope” and the “best of the young guys” tier aka Cruz/Cruz, and maybe you fatten up that tier with some more of the young players with the most promise

[@alexham28]

Seager is the best SS in the game lets not be silly

[@laserred87]

As I blue Jays fan I can confirm I would take either gunnar or bobby witt over Bo any day. And I'm one of the biggest bo supporters. But those 2 guys are different

[@Bruc_eTheBear]

I too a Jays fan would take Bobby, but not Gunnar. Gunnar 2023 had the same numbers as Bo's career averages, Gunnar gotta show it a bit more. (I love Bo)

[@Mattybaseball_90]

Seager is way better and there are other people at short better than Mookie

[@RyanSheppard-tq4pg]

Bichette in third tier, hahaha

[@Bdot1588]

Mets fan here but I’d honestly take a lot of SS over lindor lol I haven’t particularly enjoyed his tenure with us

[@dylanristau5414]

Lindor and turner aren't even close to seager or betts. Seager and Betts are elite, your telling me you look at lindor and turner and think elite? Hell no, you look at them and think decent. Trash S tier, I thought you guys knew ball.

[@yommish]

if you’re someone who cares about stats, Seager has a season average 5.7 bWAR (including 2023), Lindor has 5.6. It’s not that big of a gap

[@jaredfreeley8283]

Arcia above the Cruz’s is WILD

[@jaredfreeley8283]

Yeah bo don’t belong w them

[@Antw0n22]

Lindor does not belong on S tier. Clear difference between top 2 and next 4

[@kyleknapp1985]

I saw Correa at the top and stopped watching.

[@williscoolification]

Make jolly permanent

[@mickeyellison7929]

Orlando Arcia was an All Star last year. Just saying.

[@Celticsandbraveslover]

I'm a braves fan and that all-star selection means like nothing lol

[@andrewthomas8798]

Gold Glove finalist Corey Seager seems pretty good at defense lol

[@jaimelannister1797]

Just like gold glove finalist Juan Soto

[@Goncalo.]

andy don’t kid yourself

[@TheTEN24]

If you believe in the gold glove having any relevancy anymore you don’t know ball

[@saintbeesechurger2800]

Gold glove winner Vladimir Guerrero Jr. has entered the chat

[@MojoJM]

I watched probably 175 Ranger games last year and don't remember Corey messing up one time on defense.

[@thethomaslampe]

Bo bichette 👎