Our First Impression on Shuai Jiao

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By popular demand, Shintaro and Peter are talking about Shuai Jiao! They're no experts of Shuai Jiao, so in this episode, they focus more on their first impressions of the art, and how it fits in the broad grappling world.
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[@bublegumjp]

The Sanda's throws and takedowns came from Shuai Jiao

[@michaelwright3612]

Judo, BJJ, Japanese jiu jitsu, Hung Gar and Shuai Jiao practitioner/competitor here- the United States Kuoshu Federation (USKF) dropped Shuai Jiao from the lack of participants. There seem to be plenty of schools but very few competitors show up and I’ve been attending the annual torment since 1993.

[@junichiroyamashita]

How good is Hung Gar with grappling? The focus on low stance and forearms lenght makes me suppose so.

[@JK-cd6zr]

I've been fascinated by shuai jiao for a while. From what I've gathered, modern shuai jiao mostly owes it's existence to a Qing Dynasty bodyguard school that was heavily influenced by Mongolian and Manchu/Jurchen wrestling and has little or nothing to do with the kinds of wrestling mentioned in ancient Chinese record. In fact, I suspect the ancient wrestling may have had more influence on sumo and Korean ssireum. The Mongolian influence on shuai jiao is most obvious from the jacket they wear. However, there have also been influences on shuai jiao from northern kung fu and judo. While there is shuai jiao the specific sport, there is also shuai jiao the broader martial art. The martial art includes striking and weapons from kung fu, and while shuai jiao looks so close to judo, the actual influence of judo is in shuai jiao's newaza. Yes, there is newaza in shuai jiao, but while the sport of shuai jiao is somewhat rare and neglected, the other aspects of it are exceedingly rare. Shuai jiao itself was a big influence on the kung fu style of baguazhang and the modern sport of sanda/sanshou. The modern styles fall within a few regions and cities where they've taken on a unique flavor. The two I think are the moat interesting are from Baoding and Shanxi. The Baoding variety was the one called "fast wrestling" and taken to Taiwan by heavyweight full contact fighting champion Chang "Iron Butterfly" Donsheng where he combined it with xingyiquan and other styles he knew. The Shanxi style was developed by miners. Because it would get so hot underground the miners would work shirtless and so their version of shuai jiao is also bare-chested.

[@LunaticReason]

You should talk to lavalle Marshall I believe he’s a practitioner of shuai jiao and boxh from the us.

[@jordanburton4147]

Full agreement. He has competition footage on Chaui Jiao.

[@obiwanquixote8423]

Shuai Jiao isn't a single style any more than "wrestling" is. Same way there is freestyle, greco, etc, there are many different types of Shuai Jiao. One of which is Mongolian wrestling. I was taught a little of the Baoding Kuai Jiao style from my father. He was quite good, I was not. When comparing to Judo, I'd say the two biggest differences is Judo is a modern sport. Strength and conditioning is done in a sports performance way. People lift weights, run hills, do plyometrics. Part of Shuai Jiao training would involve traditional conditioning like throwing sandbags, belt cracking and grasping jars. So if you like retro strength training, it's pretty cool. The other thing that I notice is Shuai Jiao puts more emphasis on footwork. Transitioning from Shuai Jiao to boxing felt very natural. Learning to move in the open, how to walk around is part of it. My experience with Judo and BJJ is the standing footwork is more around technique execution, like foot placement for the throw. In boxing and shuai jiao you're going to spend time learning how to step, to pivot, to move in and out. Judo will do a lot of uchikomi but not spend a lot of time, especially early on, on what to do with your feet before you come to grips. Grip fighting is also different. Shuai Jiao, grip fighting is one of the first things taught, and throws only start getting taught after gripping.

[@nickwestendorf1448]

Actually you are COMPLETELY wrong. The Beijing Style is very popular and is a "Style". If by your statement that its no different than "Wrestling", sure, it had Techniques and Attribute Practice to develop skill. but it IS a structured "Style".

[@cullanhamilton1539]

You guys should look at Kudo! It’s a mixed martial art similar to MMA but it grew out of Judo and Kyokushin Karate.

[@sergeantonionzindros-luu2366]

Sounds kinda like Sanda lol

[@NewYorkShuaiJiao]

As a SHUAI JIAO teacher and practitioner for almost 30 years I could tell you there is a cannon of techniques that actually are standardized in the art but it isn’t popularized. It’s called the Ji Ben Gong. It’s a set of drills. The technique you see as Tai Otoshi is similar but not the same. It’s called Bie..means leg blocking. You block the leg only after pulling your opponent over the body’s threshold. If you discuss Tai Otoshi with high level Judoka some actually practice Tai Otoshi in this way. I completely agree that SHUAI JIAO teachers aren’t great at capitalism and unity but there is a USA SHUAI JIAO team that is formed annually and go to international tournaments. The rule base is standard and similar to Sambo. It is based on points unlike Bokh where a touch to the ground wins. Those were the old rules. If you guys ever want a bit more of an education on this topic let me know and will be happy to share otherwise thanks for the show regardless 🙏🏼

[@michaelwright3612]

Lavell Marshall is now a leading proponent of bokh now.

[@EvosBasics]

Shuai jiao only has a few main schools in the US, NYC is one of them. It’s a Kungfu system that has Mongolian roots but it’s definitely not as organized as other grappling arts. It’s popular in certain regions (Tianjin, Beijing, Baoding, Inner Mongolia) and Taiwan. China is more occupied in trying to get better at international grappling like Greco/freestyle/judo because they’re more recognized. In sport universities the guys who don’t make those wrestling teams usually drop down to the SJ team.

[@xKaidoh]

I'm glad it's getting some more awareness. In So Cal, there are two places that I know of that teach Shuai Jiao. It was also cool seeing someone like Lavell Marshall showing shuai jiao and bokh as well.

[@kogoromori30]

It doesn't have Mongolian roots, bruv. But Mongolian wrestling is related to it.

[@tichtran664]

NOT Mongolian in origin. In fact one style the shanxi style goes back to PRE mongol song dynasty. It SHIRTLESS and the way they wrestle kind of resemble freestyle wrestling. Except NO pinfall only way to win is to make sure your opponent body, besides feet, is on the ground. But suplex is probably legal. And freestyle wrestling and catch wrestling USED to be shirtless also. In the 1930s.

[@justzisguy]

You're an awesome judoka, Shintaro. You should hire people to help you with your channel, I feel like your potential as a YTer is way underutilized!

[@noiseworks]

my friend in taiwan was some kind of champian at shuai jia and he decided to take up Chen Tai Chi. He said it had alot of grappling in it but i never saw him use it.

[@JacoboKungaApito]

I have some experience in Shuai Jiao. It def doesn't have a ton of practitioners in the states, but in china it's pretty legit and a lot of the best techniques and training systems are not demonstrated in the west. Weili Zhang is a world champion MMA fighter who displays excellent Wushu Sanda and Shuai Jiao in her fights. I've met some shuai jiao practitioners over the years who are very very good. I'm a wrestler, mma fighter, sanda practitioner, and bjj brown belt and have been asbolutely man handled by some shuai jiao guys (granted said guys also have black belt judo experience). Theres only one guy in Boston who does shuai jiao i respect , Paul Lopez at All-1 MMA in Hyde Park who is an absolute master in martial arts, TKD, judo and bjj black belt, with loads of Bokh and shuai jiao experiecne. He's a buck 30 but jeez impossible to take down and he has some very unorthodox techniques that he attributes to shuai jiao. I think it's something that enhances martial arts, but on it's own isn't the best. Like, (i'm sorry) karate sucks, but muay thai with karate training is OP. Judo is obviously great- judo plus some knowledge in shuai jiao can for sure give you an upper hand. Same with Bokh. If you're a grappler with Bokh training, your balance and sensitivity to touch/ movement is going to be so high. The best judokas I know are judokas who also have high level newaza or wrestling training. So I'd say, train shuai jiao, but don't only train shuai jiao. :)

[@thecollector6746]

It was the Judo my dude..

[@JacoboKungaApito]

@@thecollector6746 thanks for the valuable insight my dude

[@thecollector6746]

@@JacoboKungaApito I'm here to help.

[@JacoboKungaApito]

@@thecollector6746😂

[@wolftotem2367]

The majority of the martial arts practitioners today aren't into fighting competitively or actively looking for street fights. Most are in for the health benefits and a sense of self discipline and accomplishment.

[@raylantz5144]

A KZbin named Chadi covers some Shuai Jiao videos as well. He's very informative.

[@vids595]

He is deeply biased in favor of aggrandizing Judo, sometimes at the cost of historical accuracy, or at the cost of clear insight, but his channel is valuable.

[@bluetiger5064]

@@vids595 I was about to say this, thank for saying it

[@dhimankalita1690]

​​@@vids595i Don't know where you got the idea from but he clearly is rational and fact based. Any video I've watched of him and fact checked i found mostly authentic info. On the contray he has many videos criticising judo and its rule Can you please provide me some example where he lied?

[@pilota86]

Shuai Jiao practitioner since 1993 here. I actually agree with most of the opinions up until 12:17 mark. The modernization of Judo is unmatched (or soon to be by BJJ?) in the martial arts industry. You simply can't scale things if people are getting killed practicing it. Modernization has it's drawbacks but what other ways are you gonna get liability insurance for your school or tournament? However, why not do some more research if you are gonna do a 30min talk on this topic? Felt like you emptied your opinion tank on the topic 12min in.

[@Ninja9JKD]

I want to learn a few good Shuai Jiao throws which have solid transitions to ground submissions :)

[@arbogast4950]

Northern Longfist has so much wrestling in it. It's a real shame how it turned into a performance art. There's also archery, spear fighting, and sword play too. At this point it's practically dead. 😢

[@AztecUnshaven]

Xu Xiaodong is a bit of a scammer. There are plenty of actual Gongfu practitioners that are legit that have called his ass out, and he turned quiet as a mouse. He even called the cops on some of them. Most of those old goofballs that Xu beat up have zero history of being a reputable "master". As far as Shuai Jiao goes, there are many Shuai Jiao styles. Shuai Jiao is embedded into many Northern Gongfu styles, like Nothern Preying Mantis, (lots of striking, wrestling, joint locks all combined). You might wanna reach out to a guy named Lavell Marshall. He's a very strong Shuai Jiao/Hung Gar Kungfu guy that has thrown around people from ALL kinds of backgrounds (BJJ, Judo, freestyle wrestling). He also has spent the last few years exploring Mongolian Bokh (which is closely related with Shuai Jiao). Shuai Jiao throws have been used by top tier UFC competitors too. Remember Zabit Magomedsharipov? His "Judo throws" are all from Shuai Jiao and Shaolin Kungfu (he comes from a Dagestan Shaolin school).

[@Ed7501]

Xu knows who's legit and who's fake. He just wanted to expose the fake ones.

[@AztecUnshaven]

@@Ed7501 That's nice and everything, but the problem is, Xu doesn't explain this to his ignorant followers. And goofy clickbait channels like "Fight Commentary Breakdowns" (and others) then feed off of this, and go around labeling a bunch of nobodies "kungfu masters", because it gets a lot of views. It's a chain effect... then soon enough viewers start believing these goofballs getting their asses kicked were actual "kungfu masters". It's nonsense.

[@JasonWu21212121]

@@AztecUnshaven yeah well it's not his responsibility if a bunch of americans want to feed off his clout, he's also gone on record talking abt how he respects proper instructors like Qiu Baolong of the Beijing Baji club, so it's not like he's some kind of bitter old man who hates everything that has to do with kung fu.

[@kingkazuma2239]

@@AztecUnshaven understandable. I believe Xu just wanted to expose these fake Kung fu masters but instead made out all other Kung fu masters to look bad. He may or may not have intentionally wanted to cause this but he did so I think that's why people hate him

[@raylantz5144]

There's about 10,000 Shuai Jiao in China. It's not that popular. It's fantastic to learn though! I had a book on it once.

[@hughwebb1712]

Do you mean schools or practicioners?

[@raylantz5144]

@@hughwebb1712 practitioners

[@morpheus3128]

I have EXTENSIVELY trained in judo, Shuai Jiao, and BJJ. In China, there are some Shuai Jiao wrestlers that are certifiable killers. Judo is awesome. Shuai is also awesome. Think of it this way, if you are a student of grappling, Shuai Jiao is another 3000-year-old, pressure tested study in throwing. You have to give it a look.

[@ARCsvideos]

I have some experience with Shuai Jiao as a Sanda practitioner. I’m primarily a striker, so take this with a grain of salt. Shuia Jiao does superficially resemble Judo, but a decent amount of techniques are similar to western wrestling too. The lack of ground fighting means there’s some holes. The rule about you being penalized for landing when you throw someone is correct. I would say it definitely doesn’t feel as refined as other grappling arts. The Judo and BJJ players can usually throw me without too much trouble, but that’s more indicative of my skill than Shuai Jiao.

[@thecollector6746]

Nah...it's pretty indicative of Shuai Jiao.

[@hong-enlin4651]

The Chinese Shuai Jiao actually has it's lineage more in Bokh. The majority of the styles came from Qing dynasty-Manchurian royal body guard battalion (San-Pu-Yin), they would always lose to the Mongols in the past so they would hire Mongolian coaches. The tournaments would happen in the royal hunts where Mongolian and central Asian steppe dignitaries would be invited. The so called 3000 year lineage from ancient text was not a continues thing that eventually lead to the shuai Jiao today. When Qing dynasty was overthrown, some of it survived. The most popular stye in the US is the Bao Ding system, which was from a Chinese Muslim martial artist Chang that joined the Nationalist and moved to Taiwan. Eventually China tried to revive the art into a sport and but it was really late.

[@ericlee1226]

Shuai Jiao is almost literaly translate to "Wrestling"

[@kenn.alexander]

"Average jiujitsu blue belt in his mid-30s going through a divorce" 😄😄😄

[@Ninja9JKD]

So far many of the Shuai Jiao techniques to me look like Judo, but with more circles :). The Jacket is like between a gi and no gi

[@Noel_D]

It's hard for me to deny these points about Shuai Jiao. I like and still practise it on the side, but the only club I know of in NYC was Wrestling Evolution where I practiced. It was a good experience, but I can't deny the sport itself is too niche and unorganized. So, there really isn't a standard to how its taught, let alone the level of teaching.

[@Shigashi84]

noel my brotha!!!!!!

[@ShuaiJiaoUS]

Shuai Jiao is a form of jacket wrestling. Footage from Taiwanese police college: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l4PGoaKIhNRnrrc

[@symmetry08]

Yeah, it is essentially nomadic people's influence and this wrestling popularized by Manchus, which was pretty much dominated by Mongolians back then. And all these wrestling, somehow, is in the north along the border of Nomadic settlement, that which says where the origin is.

[@KingoftheJiangl]

Sensei you could link up with Coach Francisco Gomez. He's in the city as well and has good Shuaijiao. Good guy too. Would be a crazy podcast...

[@hectorcervantes2558]

Sambo is directly linked to judo i mean it essentially is judo

[@mrmushin1]

It is meant to be very elder art of judo, the founder of kito ryu studied it

[@thecollector6746]

1. No, it is not considered an "elder art" to Judo. Japanese Martial Arts have nearly nothing in common with Chinese Martial Arts with respect to lineage. 2. No, the founder of Kito Ruy did not study Shuai Jiao given that Shuai Jiao didn't exist after the fall of the Ching Dynasty and it wasn't at all a discipline that was commonly found outside of royal court body guards and Manchuria.

[@jeffdabarbarian9816]

There’s Mongolian wrestling up in boston

[@MbisonBalrog]

Shuai Jiao has no grip rules like judo but they don’t take advantage. It ends up looking like judo.

[@BillHallProductions]

Ichinojo is not only Mongolian but nomadic Mongolian

[@vagabond4576]

Ive seen some really physical specimens that have no talent for fighting at all no matter how gifted they are in another field. Lebron James could be doing windmills like I saw a 6 foot 8 muscled dude in my school. Looks imposing and muscular but no common sense in fighting. Always lost. So cant just go by physical gifts either. The dude has to have some kind of common sense to at least know hes a big dude. So grab him and throw him around. I even seen wrestlers lose because they want to throw hands all the time. So its depends. Lebron James has a high chance gifted wise. But if he doesnt have any natural fighting sense. Hes done like his shitty ankle.

[@paulmitchell5349]

If some punk wants to challenge a 65 year old master, he should choose some guy who is at least 200 pounds of solid muscle. Hard to find I guess. Mike Tyson keeps in shape but he ain't 65 yet.

[@KingoftheJiangl]

If I understand you correctly you're referring to the Chinese guy who challenged taichi "masters". His name is xu and he's actually two years older than the taichi guy who challenged him. He's got anger issues, which I can relate with, and that's his problem, but he's not the bad guy as he's responding to a younger challenger

[@pignokor5536]

Shintaro is based!

[@a.m.4479]

2:13 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@ToughBreaksGrapplingClub]

is peter gonna compete in Shuai Jiao yet?? lol

[@sergeantonionzindros-luu2366]

Pretty sure Sanda guys practice Shuai Jiao

[@frankmartinez4856]

Higashi Sensei! Good show 😏Shuai Chiao, don't want to be a sport 😳that's why it not big, like you said 😬

[@gontraf8702]

That bit about Xu Xiaodong kind of bothered me tbh... If "he entertained all of us" is all you took away from what he did, I think you missed the point. Idk, it felt a bit thoughtless and kind of dismissive.

[@Shigashi84]

yaaa, I'm sorry. Definitely a lot going on there. should be an episode of it all on its own.

[@vids595]

They did seem to fail to properly recognize his sacrifices in the name of martial arts.

[@Shigashi84]

Are you guys pro or anti Xu?

[@gontraf8702]

@@Shigashi84 Thanks for clarifying 👍 The show was good though! Thank you for your work, it's super helpful.

[@SwordTune]

He didn't do anything that people didn't already know.

[@BillHallProductions]

Sumo baby I wish it had critical mass in America

[@vids595]

Martial artist Xu Xiaodong. kzbin.info/www/bejne/j5TYaJesfaetoZI

[@philipmontanti7344]

I disagree forms so help you to be a better fighter. Especially street Fighting no rules!

[@SextonHardcastle2]

Haha

[@andrewmaniglia7257]

Honestly Shuai Jiao doesn’t understand capitalism, economics, or Tai Otoshi

[@nickwestendorf1448]

Dude, not refined ? its THE OLDEST style of Chinese Kung Fu !