Our new heating system - spoiler it's not gas!

[@Glyn001]

Really glad you have gone this way John people that have gone air to air and have not put one in EVERY room must be mad . ( could you imagine buying a newish house with only heating in half the house but the seller saying we don’t use the other rooms ) ev man has a similar system that works with micro bore . Only one concern but maybe not draining your powerwall by midday on a old one. I will be watching your future flogs with even more interest. Very pleased with your decision

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Glyn. The decision is certainly based on how you use your heating, size of your house, layout of rooms, age of property, lifestyle and so on. There are so many variables that what is right for us maybe not right for everyone else. EVMan did have microbore upstairs and that was swapped for 15mm copper. I'm assured that our system will work with microbore as we've tested it for the past 18 months. Also Mark the heating engineer was comfortable that it would work too. We are having a buffer installed to act as a reservoir for the heat pump rad circuit to ensure there is enough flow and pressure to pump around the system. I'm sure we will find 1 Powerwall will not be enough on cold days for sure, time will tell I guess.

[@Glyn001]

Thanks for the reply one last question did they have any idea of the total amount of litres in the system

[@johntisbury]

Good question, I never asked that tbf. I guess we will know when they drain it, flush it and fill it up again.

[@EVPuzzle]

🤔

[@EVPuzzle]

Nice thorough job Look forward to comparing numbers next winter

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Nigel, I think you will winning in terms of pull from the grid. We have very different approaches to heating our homes , our approach will almost certainly use more leckie.

[@EVPuzzle]

@@johntisbury I'm adjusting slowly towards a more continuous heat and ceasing wood burning too so should use more energy over time but yes we're all different

[@johntisbury]

@@EVPuzzle sounds like a good approach. This is what I love about us sharing data, ideas and approaches. You take away what works for you.

[@Jaw0lf]

Interestingly, on my EPC, done before my ASHP was fitted it shows my floorspace as 171m squared. Home is a 1973, and I replaced most of my radiators as old and full of gunk. First year we used 3333kWh and it kept our home nice and warm at 18c. Tried 19c for a month and found my jumper was constantly on and off, so dropped to 18c. As system was 1 year old we had the old cavity insulation, an 80's foam sprayed that was not done well and had broken down. Since having it replcaced with new insulation, house heating has been off for past 3 to 4 weeks and comparing March use to other similar stages, we are saving at least a third of our usage. So hoping around 2000kWh for heating over the next year. I am sure you will be happy with your choice and it is a whole home solution! I used to have different rooms at different temps dependant upon use during the day, but now switched to all the same and a 2c drop over night. The whole home has felt warmer doing this.

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching and adding your findings on your installation, that is reassuring to hear. We used 11,969kWh of gas for heating in 2022 Jan - Dec so hoping to beat that! I don't think that will be a problem! So far this year (Jan - April, gas off in May) we've used 7,435kWh of gas, just goes to show how inefficient our current gas boiler is.

[@scottwills4698]

I’m looking to do the same! Thanks for your video, I will be interested in how it works for you as I have micro bore so I’ll be looking out for your next video!

[@johntisbury]

The dreaded microbore! I don't believe it's as much as a problem as people have made out. We shall see. Thanks for watching.

[@scottwills4698]

@@johntisbury hope so, my Plummer friend said he has “knocked about” some houses on my estate and he says the “drops” are 15mm and it’s only the tails that are 10mm so it maybe not too bad to change that. 🤞🏻 I’d be interested in your choice of radiator too, from what I understand aluminium radiators push out more heat. My other friend has just fitted an air to air heat pump in a few rooms (mainly for aircon) but he has been amazed at the instant heating from them. If your extension is difficult to heat could you maybe add one to that room?

[@johntisbury]

@@scottwills4698 I found some photos I took in 2000 when our current house was being built and I have a photo of the pipework upstairs under the floor. I believe we have 22mm to the rads with microbore tails, so yes that maybe the case for you too, just the tails. I need to show the photo to our installer for them to look at. We have considered A2A longertemr of a couple of rooms, mainly for cooling.

[@matthewwakeham2206]

Air to air can run heat in one room and cooling in another. Even to the point of heat recovery where you are moving the heat from the room you are cooling to the one you are heating. Obviously it requires more complex pipe work but it is possible.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Matthew, good to know. I was not aware of that.

[@glenmason9755]

Hi John. I’m on a very similar ‘energy’ journey as yourself and have many of the same solutions in place. Really looking forward to seeing how the ASHP install goes since replacing our old gas boiler is also our next of the list. Based in N’pton, also in a micropore pipework house I’ve also had previous discussion with Mark but yet to make a decision.

[@johntisbury]

Hi Glen, seems we have very similar parallel journeys. I will do updates as I get them.

[@chrishar110]

You mentioned at the pros of air to water heat pump that they have not cooling facility. I am from Greece and at one job site-office we had AWHP that could do that with special radiators with fan. It wasn't as cool as a AC, but it worked fine it could make a huge diference from outside. It could drop the temp from 35°C to 25-27°C in 30 minutes.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching. I found out that it was possible to have a cooling facility with a heat pump. We since have installed a Vaillant ASHP which can have the facility. As you point out it's not quite full AC. I have concerns with a wet radiator set around condensation forming on the pipework buried behind walls and under floorboard which can lead to damp issues within the structure of the home.

[@chrishar110]

@@johntisbury If every pipe is insulated and there is not even an inch without cover there is no condensation. I saw at your video how well they insulate these pipes and I can tell you that you wouldn't have any problem. Don't forget, you will use it only for a few days every year and not in every room, living room and bedroom for a few hours. Condensation will dry out in a few hours in a very hot day and it won't damage the walls or the floors. Good fan coils have a small container-tank underneath that you have to empty every day or you can put a pipe to drain the water outside. I am not sure but I think that for this purpose you need a special liquid in your system, water is not recomended.

[@colingoode3702]

Good video John. I have microbore as well, concrete ground floor & T&G chipboard floor upstairs so replacing pipework is not really an option due to the upheaval required. I have Tado smart valves on every radiator (singles & doubles) except for two rads in the shower & bathroom which act as heat sinks when most of the rad valves are closed. My wall hung system boiler (Ideal) was replaced 4 years ago & like you I have tried running it on lower flow temps. It struggles on anything lower than 55c when it short cycles because it cannot maintain a steady flow temp (I have the pump ramped up to the max speed). Like many boilers it is probably oversized which explains why it cannot control at low capacity. I already have a single 4kW wall mounted mini split in our conservatory which works fine for heating & the occasional bit of cooling. Solar, a 9kWh battery & an Eddie have recently been installed so my next step will, like you, to decide what to replace the gas boiler with. A2W may be an option but having spent 48 years in the HVAC industry I'm leaning towards an A2A multi split system with a separate solution for HW - probably an all in one HP HW tank in our attached garage (too noisy to have in the airing cupboard). I will watch out for for your next video with great anticipation to see how you get on.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Colin for watching and your detailed summary of your circumstances. I guess there are many people like the both of us who are going through the same thought process and deciding what's best for them. Certainly seems sensible to stick with what you know based on your HVAC knowledge, I no doubt would do exactly the same.

[@gsdevme]

Interesting stuff, Do you have any 22mm at all? whats out of the boiler. I hear you said microbore but I wonder if thats fed via a 22mm backbone at all. I've got some 22mm/15mm and wonder if Im better getting the rest upgraded to 22mm first. I've had Type 33/K3 stelrads put in this year ready for a heat pump in future, they are huge! good though.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching. Yes we have 22mm to and from the boiler / hot water tank. They're maybe a manifold somewhere in the house, no idea where, or they may had teed off 15mm with microbore. All pipework is hidden behind the plasterboard so no idea really. The larger the pipe diameter the better in terms of improving efficiency / SCOP values.

[@jerrywatson966]

Another very Interesting video John and useful to compare with my own situation and upgrade. I also produced scaled drawings of the property and performed some basic energy calculations on my EPC A property, albeit with a very inefficient gas fired warm air heating system currently. I am going A2A with a multi-split system using 4 x indoor units. I'm also going through planning permission for similar reasons to yourself plus the added cooling capability. I intend to swap onto Octopus Energy Cosy tariff when my Go Faster expires in the summer. That would enable me to charge the PW2 twice per day as required. Looking forward to the next installment.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Jerry, it’s interesting to hear about others like yourself on similar journeys with slightly different choices. I think local planners will be very busy with heat pump applications.

[@jerrywatson966]

I'm sure they will be. My application was delayed because of the local elections and the council has changed leadership from Conservative to Labour. I went through pre-application and they suggested that there wouldn't be any problems. A2A is the logical solution for me and although not eligible for any Government grant, it is much cheaper than A2W.

[@johntisbury]

A2A makes sense as you are replacing a similar air ducted system although it will be so much more efficient. Has your installer contacted the DNO for approval?

[@jerrywatson966]

I wasn't aware that the DNO needed to be informed. Can you enlighten me?

[@johntisbury]

​@@jerrywatson966it's seen as an energy device so the DNO needs to be informed. www.gov.uk/government/publications/register-energy-devices-in-homes-or-small-businesses-guidance-for-device-owners-and-installation-contractors/register-energy-devices-in-homes-or-small-businesses-guidance-for-device-owners-and-installation-contractors

[@mark_just_mark]

Very comprehensive John, enjoyed that one. A quick question about your ASHP installation / space, is only 700mm in front of the unit adequate ?

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching Mark. Yes the minimum stated in the installation manual is 600mm in front and 200mm behind. So we are above both those figures.

[@stephenpierpoint9109]

Hi. John, very interesting. We had a 14kw mitsi heat pump fitted just over a year ago. Heat loss calcs recommended changing 7 rads, but we didn't change any, through the winter on the coldest days, we only found one radiator which could have done with being larger. Regarding the PW2, on the coldest days we would empty it in 4 hours. We now have fitted a second PW2 , so looking at next winter expect a minimum 8 hours from the Powerwalls plus 6 hours off peak electric on Intelligent Octopus, a bit solar and Ripple Energy makes it so much cheaper than Gas.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for the information Stephen, that's good to hear. Not good to hear about a 4 hour emptying time for the Powerwall mind, I did think that maybe our weak spot. Time will tell. Agree totally about being cheaper than gas with the inputs from Ripple and solar. I will factor those into our costs and savings when I get to do a how much did it cost us to run this winter video next year!

[@markbrice2928]

@@johntisbury Hi John we found the same issue with our 16kW Samsung ASHP in that it would drain our two PW's down. We are installing a 3rd PW at our new place ready for when we convert over from Oil to ASHP. We are arranging for a heat loss survey so that we can size the ASHP accordingly.

[@johntisbury]

A 16kW heat pump is massive, mine will be 7kW, hopefully your heat loss survey will indicate a smaller unit for your new place.

[@markbrice2928]

@@johntisbury yes this was fitted before heat loss calculations were taken into account, it worked well with our underfloor heating and vented cylinder tank. Property was EPC A100 rated.

[@serraios1989]

Thank you for all the information John. Can I please ask about upsizing the radiators? You have already experimented with the current rads at 40 degrees flow temperature and your house was comfortably warm. Of course you have had very detailed heat loss surveys, but if the temperature was satisfactory why to get into the trouble?

[@daviddawson9099]

Excellent and informative interesting to see how it goes thanks.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching David, glad it was interesting for you.

[@bencampbell2041]

Looks like that 700mm is just above the minimum clearance specified by the manufacturer? Do you have the option to put it in a more open area if permission is refused?

[@johntisbury]

Manufacturer states minimum clearance is 600mm with 250mm behind. I can be put elsewhere in front of the kitchen window but that means the external pipe runs are 40m. I very much doubt planning will be declined based on chatting with the planner when they came round to take photos.

[@salokin1]

@@johntisbury What's the airflow like down that side of the house? A "wind tunnel" or a "dead zone". I imagine you need a fairly decent amount of air movement to keep it at max efficiency.

[@johntisbury]

@@salokin1 it's windy like Chicago. I've changed the fence which faces the road to an open slatted design to increase the through draft. I will cover this in more detail in a future update video.

[@IM-Meacho]

Really informative video for the consumer well done. That’s from an installer my self. What cop did you end up with so far after install.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for this Simon. COP for past 30 days is 4.8 which is much better than expected. Heating on 24/7, DHW run most days.

[@IM-Meacho]

What’s the average been across the year that’s impressive

[@johntisbury]

@simonmeachen3375 installed end of July, but reset open energy monitoring recoding stats from 20th Sept when buffer tank was removed and air in system removed. These two things were dragging down the efficiency big time in terms of the stats recorded from the heat meter. the reality was it was working okay, but needed tweaking to improve the DHW runs due to air in system throwing the ultrasonic sensors in the heat meter to record poor flow / cop. I have videos covering this. From 20th Sept cop 4.70. Heat curve 0.4, desired temp 19.5°C. No zones, open loop on 24/7 with weather comp and room influence

[@nickieredshaw7835]

Very interested to see how you get on an the costs etc

[@johntisbury]

I will keep everyone updated.

[@Greguk444]

John, great help, thank you. Did you explain how you use myenergi products and solar to heat your water? I can’t see any video. Did you buy a new water tank?

[@johntisbury]

Thanks Greg. I have not done a standalone video on how I use the myenergi products, it's sprinkled in most monthly update videos. At present I have a 125litre foam copper tank that was new around 10 years ago. It has a single immersion heater in the top shoulder of the tank. I use the eddi to heat the hot water from surplus in the summer. In the winter I use off peak electricity as it's cheaper than using gas based on the poor efficiency of our boiler, losses along the way etc. With the heat pump I still plan to use the immersion heater and excess solar. However I will use the heat pump during the winter as it will be more efficient than using the immersion heater.

[@rodlewis3544]

Great to see the follow up John. Great idea to test the microbore pipework at low flow temp, going to "steal with pride" and try that myself- Same David Wilson installed boiler and system as you. Are you going to continuw with your present electric hot water via solar and Octopus? - perhaps Mixergy ? This seems a good way to keep your ASHP to 8kw and flow temps at 40. looking forward to the next episode.

[@johntisbury]

Thanks for watching and please do steal away! I'm planning to keep the eddi yes we are having a Vaillant Unistore 200ltr tank and we will still use the eddi / excess solar over Spring/Summer. Probably use the heat pump in Autumn/Winter as its performance is at least 3:1 rather than 1:1 with the eddi for DHW.

[@clarkfinlay78]

Really interested video we are in a similar position but may be able to install under permitted development as we have 1700mm which is just enough for the planning permission did you need to do any sort of noise impact assessment or did yours meet the mcs 020 requirments?

[@johntisbury]

Thank you for watching. We didn't need a noise impact assessment as the position was not near any neighbouring windows or in direct line of sight. It therefore passed the MSC installation requirements for noise assessment. With the planning application there was a 'standard' noise assessment from the environmental team (can't recall whom) this was a generic desktop style assessment following due process rather than a specific in location noise assessment.

[@davebone1104]

Hi John, roughly what was the cost of the planning permission application? I have less than 1m and am wondering if its going to cost prohibitive?

[@johntisbury]

Hi Dave cost was £238.20 for planning application and £10.80 for a scale site map. I did my own elevation and site plans by hand which were good enough.

[@davebone1104]

That's good to know, appreciate that John 👍

[@robinedwards218]

Thanks for another interesting video John, looking forward to the next installment. I'm trying to do the right thing (for once) and investigate going to triple glazing before my heat pump plan starts, not sure I'll succeed. It was good to read about your microbore testing. I have a (potentially) slightly different challenge of having a mix of copper and Hep20 plastic piping. In addition our combi is in the garage and it is an 80' piperun to the shower room. I had the idea of Eddi and tank in a cupboard next to the shower room cutting the pipe run to about 10', this I have to get right as my wife likes showers hot (too hot in my opinion). On a separate question, which I've been meaning to ask for ages, with the second solar array, which is below 3.68kW did you need DNO approval as you already had 3.8kWp and Powerwall? The guys who installed our seemed to think we'd not get a second powerwall past the DNO. (I know they vary in attitude across the country alot).

[@johntisbury]

Had you thought about an electric shower for the shower room? It would mean larger electric bills though, so mayn't be the best solution/suggestion. Yes the DNO were informed with no issues. However, I doubt we would now get a second Powerwall through without going down 3 phase or split phase.

[@kevinmatthews2620]

have you not considered changing from microbore piping to larger piping, the majority of pipes in my house are microbore buried in the wales by the gas engineer before we moved, a bit of a daft idea tbh, but i upgraded all my windows barring the loft velux to triple glazed windows, my central heating is the last big project after a upgrade to my solar /adding batteries funds permitting this year, i await your progress videos

[@johntisbury]

I have considered upgrading the pipework yes Kevin, however as mentioned in the video the whole house is microbore, although I failed to mention in this video it's in the previous video, that the pipework is all behind the plasterboard. We don't want to run external pipework / trunking as it will be very intrusive for 17 radiators. We know our system can run on microbore and yes we may suffer with slightly less performance SCOP scores, but the radiators will all be upgraded to offset the smaller pipework. We still have windows to do, it's next on the list! LOL Triple glazing with wood/metal frames for maximum u/value is our plan. And get the properly fitted with no gaps!

[@TommysDaddy]

one option you missed ! . . . an integrated "heat pump cylinder" for hot water supply ( to pair with air-t-air heating) . . . several manufacturers do them these days. (Vaillant, Daikin (but not yet UK), Curv, Mixergy, to name a few) . . oh and another option is multi-split het-pumps which do both A2A & A2W (just one branch for water heating) . . .

[@johntisbury]

Good call. I’d discounted the heat pump cylinder as A2A is a no go for us as mentioned..