Our Saxo is burning oil and I don't know why!

[@carcontrolcommitment]

So I had this exact same problem on my race 106 gti J4 engine. The cause of the smoke is the black breather pipe that links the inlet cam cover with the TB. Essentially with an after market air filter and pipe the oil pools in the rocker cover and then is sucked into the TB. If you check the TB it’ll be soaked in oil and that drips both ways into the engine and down the air filter pipe. Basically as the TB is soaked in oil, it drips into the combustion chamber and essentially hydro locks the engine. The engine is trying to burn fuel and oil. When the engine is off the oil leaks past the rings and you are good to go again. That’s one of the reasons it failed to turn over as essentially you’d done a wet compression test on an other wise healthy engine. There's something about the 90 angle poking out of the side of the inlet cam that causes issues. Particularly under hard right cornering as the oil sloshes to that side of the engine. it just gets sucked into the TB. Short runs, and plenty of overnight parking will mitigate the problem, so I'll take a guess that this was the first long run for this car in a while. The starters on these fail often as the sit where all the gunk resides. The plugs will be covered in oil as you'd expect if the cylinders are full of oil.Also be careful that the injectors haven't been contaminated and blocked by splashes of oil as the pistons do piston things. The solution is either JP 4 cam covers and a catch tank, or revert to the old inlet/air filter. Or re rout the pipe from the cam cover to somewhere else. There's nothing you can do to the existing cover s you have found out. Like I said I had this problem on my race car, took me ages to work it out.

[@JamieCameron-Mackintosh-z7c]

@@carcontrolcommitment I would have to say that I'd go with this diagnosis first. It has to be a breather issue, and these engines are rather known for them and this pretty much exactly matches your symptoms. I would be very inclined to follow the suggestion about reverting to the original air intake and filter box as cone filters have all sorts of issues of their own, such as an extreme liking for sucking in hot air from within the engine bay no matter how carefully you think you've separated it off, and that reduces how much power your engine is producing as the hotter the air is the less oxygen it contains and the less oxygen in the air then the less bang you get and so less power, hence the use of intercoolers on turbocharged, and some supercharged, vehicles to cool the air charge after it has been compressed by the turbo to increase oxygen density in the charge. Car makers don't spend money if they don't have to. The car makers spend a lot of time and money on designing and engineering their air intake and filter systems to take into account the pressures that are going to be put on them, the only thing that lets them down in most cases is the fact that the OE air filters tend to be made as cheaply as possible to keep maintenance costs reasonable in early vehicle life, which restricts air flow into the engine. However, for most performance vehicles now you can get washable high flow panel air filters that fit the standard air box and air intake system that offer the advantages of air flow that the cone filter does and the advantages that the standard air intake and air box does, i.e. the intake air coming from an area where the air will be the coolest so you get the most oxygen dense charge, ways to keep surface water away from the engine intake and guaranteed exact fit in the engine bay. I went through the air filter argument with a friend on his much loved Saxo VTR 15 or so years ago. All his car scene friends told him to ditch the standard air intake and air box and replace it with a cone filter. So he did, fortunately not binning the standard kit, and the performance of his car fell off a cliff so he came to me for advice. We reinstalled the standard parts and fitted a K&N washable panel air filter and the car went like a train... Those VTS/106 GTi 16v engines are pretty well known for being pretty heavy breathers and that isn't really going to improve with age and mileage, it's just something they do like the Toyota VVTL-i engine drinks oil.

[@jimmyhackers8980]

it's the missing oil breather valve....these prevent engine vacum from sucking oil into the intake, while allowing excess pressure (if any even forms) to be vented into the intake from the head. he just need to fit one, or an oil catch can/breather.

[@ColinCarFan]

Air filter clogged with oil so intake suction increased and sucking in oil. Then gets more covered in oil and sucks in more oil. ?? Change air filter.

[@UPnDOWN]

Mmmm, I did clean it a little while ago, but maybe I should try replacing it with a new filter before I do anything else. Most obvious solution is normally the likely one! Thanks.

[@Nino500]

This was my first thought too. Too much vacuum due to blocked air filter. I'm guessing the first big cloud was when Mrs K. lifted off after accelerating past Mr Slo? The acceleration my have helped the oil in the inlet flow back to the throttle body, then lifting off increased the vacuum and sucked it all in. I was also wondering if there's too much oil in the cam box. Maybe slightly worn cam bearings allowing it to spray around or does it have hydraulic tappets and could they squirt more out when worn?

[@ferrumignis]

18:46 You shouldn't be getting any noticeable vacuum on that pipe at idle, since you are it suggests the air filter is restricting air flow even at idle. My guess is the filter is absolutely soaked in oil, which would explain why it gets worse under load as it would be applying more vacuum to the crankcase. Stick the standard air box back on and see if it resolves the problem.

[@thalamus82]

@@ferrumignis I agree, there should only be a slight vacuum on that pipe when under heavy load. At idle there should be none. I don’t necessarily think that it needs the standard air box back on but it certainly suggests a very clogged air filter - probably sodden with oil.

[@MrManBuzz]

Definitely seems like a blockage somewhere in the breather system. I was convinced it was a PCV gone bad but if it doesn't have one then there's something else at fault like a collapsed hose or blocked passage. I don't know these engines particularly well so I can't really give any specific insight, but I'd go over everything related to the breather system and see if you can find anything amiss. Check the plugs and see what they look like.

[@charliemansonUK]

I had a similar experience back in the early 90's but in a metro. On the A1 southbound near RAF Wittering, slowed for the roundabout (now gone) and as i accelerated off it, and the biggest cloud of white smoke covering both sides of the dual carriageway so I freewheeled into a layby and called RAC/AA 3 hours later they turn up with a trailer to take us home he fired it up and.... it was fine! He followed us the 60 or so miles home without issue. Still have no clue why or what occurred, and it ran fine for another 6 months or so until I traded it in.

[@Lasercapri]

Could be a few things , but I would change that air filter if it’s choked up with oil as the engine is not breathing right . I do agree with the catch can .

[@YorkyPudinz]

The gurgling is air being pulled down the dipstick tube and through the oil due to the vacuum

[@andyyork544]

I had similar issues with an E90 330i. Drive to work wasn't quite long to get properly warm and over time the crack ventilation got gunked up. That caused it to pull oil from the sump and dump it in the intake. First time it happened on the motorway was spectacular. Every winter I'd have to take it long drive / thrash every few weeks.

[@nobbybrown8056]

I'd go for the catch tank too, did it 30+ years ago on a smokey Triumph Acclaim, cured it! (Didn't bother having a pipe back to the air filter box, just plugged that up)

[@Lexusman65]

Do it the old school way and put a pipe from the rocker cover to under the car and vent to atmosphere.

[@fujiuser1968]

Did that with my Saab turbo,instant M O T failure as it turns out you are not meant to road draught crank case vapor,catch tank cured the issue with the ticket 🙂

[@iosilver9920]

So glad that you tucked your tassels out of the way. Professional dude.

[@HowardLeVert]

6:51 some friends of our family were run into by a foreign lorry on the hard shoulder of the M11 in the early 80s: wife was left in a wheelchair with many trips to Stoke Mandeville afterwards, husband had a badly damaged neck and daughter had a fractured pelvis. At the time, their financial settlement set a record. Given that nowadays I see impatient drivers using the hard shoulder to jump queues I can't say I blame you for not wanting to be on it. Good luck finding the fault.

[@bondbug73]

A very anxious time for you all. How very odd what happened. Glad the Saxo made it back home after that adventure.

[@indecisiveauto]

The only thing I'd say 100% verify there's no form of PCV valve elsewhere in the system or as part of the intake as it does very much sound like a PCV fault - that said the fact that it's happily pulling a vacuum and yet oil is escaping into the intake is very very odd. One trick I was told when checking the PCV on Volvo engines was to perform the test at full operating temperature as apparently that can impact the result (glove test over the oil filler). I guess it's because thinner oil at operating temperature behaves differently? It might even be worth putting the Saxo on some artificial load on the dyno and seeing how everything is behaving/performing?

[@sophiedolman2230]

I'd say there should be a lower crankcase breather, which is possible blocked, and then when you accelerate there is too much vacuum so pulls oil through the rocker cover breather.

[@docnele]

TU1M on 205 needs crankshaft vent pipe and vacuum hoses properly attached, including vacuum release vent. I fought with guys on MOT because they required me to plug the valve with one hose attached to the valve and other end free. It is a factory condition to reduce excess intake vacuum and NOT petrol vapor exaust vent. There are vacuum pipes you can block (like ignition timing advance) but if you mix vacuum lines on the air intake you will get sporadic engine (i.e. red "cat") light. Interestingly, if you disconnect lambda probe signal, car will run awfully and smoke white but no red light.

[@Nino500]

As for the 'gurgling', that could just be that the dipstick tube goes down below the oil level so, when the breather tube is on, creating vacuum, it's sucking air down the tube and bubbling into the oil?

[@johnmoruzzi7236]

Oil clogged up the Cat ? Booting the throttle made the car sit up and collected oil gulped in by the induction system ? Compression check to for broken rings ? Maybe the fancy cone filter is reducing the vacuum and oil isn't getting reingested through the induction ?

[@jimmyhackers8980]

you will need an oil breather valve, these prevent engine vaccum from sucking too much oil into the air intake....while allowing excess pressure (if any even forms) to be vented from your head into your intake. atm your setup will be sucking in waaaaay to much oil all the time. the one on my gti6 had gone bad and waaaay to much oil went in my air intake, after a replace all is good. are about 5-10 pound on the ebays

[@jimmyhackers8980]

id also imagine your breather pipe was blocked for a very long time, probably before you did the induction kit. they do like to sludge up with condensate etc. your motorway failure was possible a large sludge blockage finallly heating up and freeing up over the long drive and slamming into your engine intake. maybe it caused hydrolock in a cylinder and a smokey sludge splattering in the others.

[@martinneumann7783]

Nice episode. I like it. Every time… 👍🙂👍

[@cliveprocter3698]

30 odd years ago my daily driver was a Mk1 1300 Golf. Don't ask but I managed to put in far too much oil, well over the mark on the dip stick. It ran OK and thinking too much oil is better than not enough it will be fine. A week later I was gunning it up a steep West Yorks/East Lancs pennine hill and a comedy massive cloud of white smoke billowed out from behind the car. On those engines the crankcase breather is half way down the back of the block. The steep incline had sloshed the oil to the back of the block and revving it hard had drawn it up into the air box and into the engine to be half burnt and blown out of the exhaust.

[@sophiedolman2230]

21.35 ish, you kind of answered your own question. "All of the oil in the inlet and breather burns off white !! "

[@Sam-pw6vi]

Just realised how close you guys are to me when you said Winchester. Looks like Sophie's Legacy based in Fareham, assume you're close. Hey neighbour!

[@HA05GER]

I would say go for a catch can and disconnect the pipe between the air filter and the cam cover. Also maybe the cone is a little small/dirty causing excess vacuum on the pipe. I'm guessing when your misses changed lane she put her foot in it and nipped over quick causing the oil to slosh to the left and sucked up the intake.

[@arneebbighausen5660]

On my saxo I have the same intake but with an oil catch tank. In the tank it’s always water in it and a little bit of oil. Maybe your oil drain on that side is blocked and the oil can’t drain quick enough, filling the cover.

[@yellowbird8690]

BROKEN INLET VALVE SPRING! "Gurgling" sound is the piston tapping dropped valve. Air pipe acting like a megaphone. Oil is running down valve guides (that are being damaged by this) or with valve not closing, exhaust pressure pushing oil out, or both. To test this, with each cam up, use a feeler gauge to check for a gap between valve and cam.

[@tomcockrem5606]

I had similar problems on my C2 VTS, gradually lost power and consumed ungodly amounts of oil, bores were completely worn out, compression test was fine but so much oil was getting past the rings it was sealing it up. Put a camera down the spark plug hole and could only see a puddle of oil instead of a piston after a compression test

[@AutoShenanigans]

2nd place on the dyno board ;)

[@douglasfur3808]

"Why is this happening all of a sudden?" Or is it that you're suddenly noticing something that built up slowly? Something went critical with the toll road heavy foot? Yes to an oil trap even if it's just to prove the situation .

[@dudleycollyer3181]

All the point you raised during the video sounds like oil is being burnt and probably getting in through the inlet, instead of a cracked head type issue. The engine locking is probably hydraulic and the oil in the intake look to be the fault, which will be worse when the engine is nice and hot making said oil thinner etc. On a standard vts the blue pipe from your cam cover is connected to a valve on the side of the air box (?). I assume this valve is probably a vacuum thing that opens up when the engine has stopped. Allowing the engine to breathe into the intake. It’s been a long time since I have looked at one so I could be wrong on what the valve does. But the bottom line is that pipe should not go straight into the intake. As any engine gets worn the engine breathes heavier (obvious) so the importance of where the engine fumes go is more important. Gone are the days when you can point the breather on the ground, or a chain like British bikes do. So I guess it’s either a complete engine rebuild to limit the breathing or a catch tank.

[@tomwinch9107]

Just what you need, more expense! Hope it is as simple as the air filter getting a bit clogged and causing oil to be picked up suddenly ... but certainly perplexing. Has your wife reduced hours to study? My wife tried to do a masters but found getting the brain to study after over 2 decades was just too draining - I hope Mrs Kitch finds it easier!

[@johncallaghan4616]

Sometimes the problem is right in front of you, you just can’t see it - I’m no expert, but knew the white smoke was excessive oil getting sucked into the exhaust from minute one - given that you have taken the rocker cover off with comparative ease, lauded the PTFE gaskets, but then (did you notice?) there were ripples in the oil build up on the drivers side of the first rocker underside baffle plate (suggesting the oil is getting drawn outwards), PLUS and this is the most ‘staring you in the face/forest for the trees moment’, there is a tell-tale stream of oil on the underside of the bonnet, starting immediately above the drivers side of the rocker cover, MIGHT suggested that atomised oil vapour is getting sucked out from the rocker when the engine is under load, then getting sucked across the engine bay, into the air filter, cooling, dripping / ponding into the exhaust, then flashing over spectacularly under exhaust reheating, causing the ‘space shuttle discharge ! I could of course be completely wrong, but that stream of oil seems to offer some very strong evidence as to the origin of the issue - the air filter side just seems to be the victim ! JCHK

[@pmcxr2]

Only time I had something like that the oil had been overfilled. I thought the engine was toast by the amount of smoke, did about 5 miles and it cleared up.

[@tichwykes]

I were going to mention a PCV valve as I'm having the same issue with my Citroen C4 so I'm waiting for a replacement to arrive so I can replace it. Very weird as to why the Saxo started doing it unless your good lady wife was driving it on its roof up the motorway which is very unlikely lol. I wonder if there's an aftermarket PCV valve that can be used instead of a catch can which could be used, although if its been ok up till now all these years like you I'm baffled!!

[@grumpy2.0]

It wanted to be like the Daihatsu? To stick my neck out a bit. Whats the difference between a 3 lane "A" road (which has no hard shoulder and a 70mph limit) and a 3/4 lane Motorway (which has no hard shoulder and a 70mph Limit)? I know "A" roads have round abouts and motorways dont.

[@JohnLawley24v]

M271 would like a word 😂 even has traffic lights... A 3+ lane dual carriage way with hard shoulder has different speed limits to a motorway for non-cat B vehicles, unless it's had a restriction applied you can even ride a 50cc moped or bicycle on them.

[@grumpy2.0]

@@JohnLawley24v I hadn't thought of the mopeds. Wow traffic lights on a Motorway that must be a delight.

[@shadowjkl]

Liked Oulton Park in old TOCA 2, I need to find that one again

[@stevenmoran4060]

In a strange way you were lucky to be on the M6 Toll as the M6 proper doesn’t have a hard shoulder any more and, I wouldn’t have fancied that on a Friday night. Oulton Park is only about 30 miles from me and I visited there since the 1970’s and, like you I have done the pace lap or laps too. It used to be run about 9 am before the days racing but things must have changed for you to do it in the afternoon/evening. I was in a Saab 93 and just did the whole laps in 3rd gear getting up to 90 mph in parts. Not bad seeing as we were never meant to be going more than 50.

[@Simonicusmaximus]

Sounds like there is some thing is flapping about down there where the dip stick is. Is there an oil gauze blocked in the sump or loose causing a block on another breather that causes oild to be sucked through into the inlet?

[@mikes747]

2 tu engines going wrong at the same time? That's very poor luck!

[@mervynsowman51]

TU stands for totally useless.

[@mel20004]

Blocked breather , not sized hydronic lock , had a mini diesel do it with the charger cooler full of oil from the turbo

[@LordClunk]

I once had a car that had the engine breather enter the air filter. (I think it was a Pinto engine) One day it had sneezed oil into the filter, and of course oil got sucked into the carb and created smoke. Didn't clear up very quick, and I had to strip the carb (I miss those days) to stop it smoking in the end. Maybe something similar happened?

[@bulkheadlamp600]

If the filter is getting blocked then the engine will suck harder on the breather pulling oil through - maybe.

[@Mickhanic-garage]

As Hubnut would say.. Because French!

[@chrisstoddard1144]

So that’s Hubnut's former Oldcit?

[@willhaer2894]

Valve stem seals probably need doing. See it all the times on saxos

[@iangrice329]

Gummy rings? Glazed boors? Used to get that on Iveco mini buses, after plodding around if they were reved hard they would chuck most of there oil out the exhaust.

[@huwdavies6650]

If you don't locate the issue (pretty sure you will), could you fit the rocker covers from a later TU5 with pcv as fitted to 307, C4 etc?

[@UPnDOWN]

It's a common mod, yeah. They have separate gaskets too! Would like to try and keep the alloy though.

[@janmortensen9314]

It almost looks like it had been intimate with hubnut's Daihatsu

[@HubNut]

They own a Daihatsu now. I think the Saxo is trying to fit in...

[@twenty_years_with_a_saxo]

​@@HubNut another reason to add to the list of getting rid of the Sirion 😂

[@mrcogginsgarage7062]

A couple of quick questions Rich What is the normal oil consumption rate How often does the car bdo longer trips at motorway speeds Has that intake kit been on for a while or is it recent And last for now does your oil filler cap have a one way valve in it and is it clear ?.

[@rustyrover3808]

Brake servo weeping through and built up over a long time, first time you booted it it came out?

[@good-ql6un]

My e46 316ti with a n46 engine would do the smoke and sometimes want to die in traffic as a result of bad valve steam seals. Possibly similar?

[@10rGreenninja]

Outon Park IS definitely one of the best driving tracks in the UK - FACT

[@mel20004]

Carbon between the baffle plate and the valve cover forming a seal and then allowing the oil to “ pool “ ???

[@jonnycole9944]

Have you considered that the Blue silicone pipe having a low spot between the cam cover and the induction pipe could be causing a "P" trap? essentially the oil blocking the pipe in the low spot.

[@matslundstrom7763]

That is my theory as well. Over time oil accumulates at the low spot, which then got sucked into the engine when the Mrs lifted off after the blast. Oil not sucked into the engine soaked the air filter causing subsequent oil burning and smoke.

[@woollen797]

Not sure if this is of help but I had an A series that the breather was blocked and caused similar problems

[@timcollins5552]

Does the oil smell of petrol I had injector stick open and send petrol into oil.

[@That_106_GTi]

oil left overs could prevent it from giving propper spark hence the loss in power. idk just my theory.

[@greengrass9572]

Your dipstick looks a little bent. Has it mislead you into over filling it? Or did you accidentally put the wrong dipstick in atcsome point?

[@simonprime5541]

How do the plugs look? Are they all the same or are two showing 'burnage'?

[@BrianSmith-zs5wg]

Blocked oil return to the sump? so all the oil is ending up at the top?

[@iamthenotbenamed365]

Brother, some might ask; how come (all) your cars break-down ...

[@twenty_years_with_a_saxo]

Technically it didn't actually breakdown as it made it to Oulton Park and then back home again 😂 It is 25 years old to be fair. And our newest car is 15 years old!

[@UPnDOWN]

Which ones have broken down? This is the first breakdown in ages, isn't it? Last I can remember was VEP when towing that trailer, and to be fair that was more my fault than the car (crud in the tank)

[@UPnDOWN]

Oh yeah...Hilda. Forgot about that one! Still, it's hardly "all your cars break down!"

[@samgray5818]

The air filter may need a clean

[@sataneatcheese6243]

I am still game to putting my Metro on your dyno.

[@SiR2Dean]

Isn't that a sign of the oil rings breaking down? Excessive smoke and oil through the breather..? The engine oil is passing by them and leaving through the breather.. into yoyr intake.. ? Or is tgst a daft conclusion? Good luck buddy 👍

[@MrManBuzz]

Can be a sign of rings being tired, but not the only one. Could be a blocked PCV, or valve stem seals leaking, or a head gasket. Head gasket would be a rare failure to cause oil burning it but it can happen. It's usually just tired rings though.

[@mrsmith697]

Nä if it was that i shouldnt go well after that happen..

[@MrManBuzz]

@@SiR2Dean After watching the video, it's clearly a case of excessive crank case pressure. And that's either because the rings are gone or the breather system is blocked. Given it doesn't have other signs of failed rings, I'm betting on a blockage in the breather system somewhere.

[@MattBrownbill]

My mum watched Fangio racing at Oulton Park. Just saying.

[@mrsmith697]

As someone said..clogged cat or exaust..sound like what..?

[@JohnLawley24v]

2005? Was that fareham multistory?

[@UPnDOWN]

Correct

[@JohnLawley24v]

@@UPnDOWN ah memories.....it was much better up hedge end way.

[@duggy788]

restricted air filter creating more vacuum in rocker breather .

[@justso1823]

Check that the oil is returning on the intake side on the head. It might be pooling up then getting sucked into the pcv/intake pipe. There is a thread on someone having the same problem on a forum from 2015 but its in Spanish 😢

[@mrc7478]

Take air filter out, go for a drive. Bet its ok.

[@BrianSmith-zs5wg]

Oil filter full of oil, causing excess vacuum and sucking too much oil.

[@BrianSmith-zs5wg]

Sorry Air filter, (Freudian slip)

[@MGBetts1]

Because French!

[@WildWildWeasel]

Yo wait, I got unsubbed from your channel and had to resub. Am I the only one having this issue?

[@chrismills9346]

I think head gasket going On that leaking water in to cylinder

[@mervynsowman51]

Could be head gasket.

[@SoLDMG]

One of the ways I determine “excess blowby” is to lay the oil fill cap on the hole it goes into, if its enough to jiggle or even toss it off the engine it’s excess. The engine might have a PCV issue…? I’m very interested as I’ve got two of these engines… Most older engines have some sort of PCV valve with a ball in it, so the engine doesn’t suck in oil when it doesn’t have to. I think the original intake piping does this with a diaphragm!

[@SoLDMG]

Also, the PTFE gasket standins are absolutely terrible. Waste of money. Best way to get the original covers to seal is to machine/file the little standoff steps it has off. They are not sealed from the factory with sealant. They had rubber gaskets. Which went out of production as soon as the TU5JP4 came in. I managed to find a set hiding in my now defunct PSA service center, alongside NOS 106 headlights and 106 GTI air filter!

[@UPnDOWN]

I've found the PTFE gaskets to be amazing, one of the best buys for that engine. Perhaps if the covers are slightly warped you might struggle. The gaskets weren't available separately, not even from Citroen. They only came with the cam covers and were pre-bonded on. They almost felt like a dry bead of sealant, so I'd say it's fair to say they're sealed tbh. Semantics either way, the outcome is the same.