Outlawed Panels and Breakers

There are a whole bunch of old breakers and panels that are installed in many residences that have created fires and taken lives. Here's a little overview of the different types. This is not a deep dive into each brand, which will be coming soon.
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In this video we discuss Zinsco, Federal Pacific, Pushmatic, Wadsworth, and Challenger panels and how over they years they've been responsible for burning down buildings, causing fires, injuries, and deaths. All of these companies have been forced to shut down and many have faced extreme legal battles as up to 60% of their products were considered faulty.
A lot of this was due to very loose adherence to UL listings, or really just a lack of listings back then. In some cases, however, brands have completely lied about their standardization methods and testing processes.
#electrician #federalpacific #outlawedpanels

[@gwford3]

(8:00) As a retired engineer for a circuit breaker manufacturer, I would never recommend field testing a breaker in a panel by shorting the line to neutral. All factory production testing for trip point current and time delay is done at low voltage. Short circuit testing at line voltage erodes the contacts and shortens the life of the breaker. Our technicians periodically short circuit tested sample production breakers for UL inspectors. The test was at full rated line voltage and interrupting capacity. It was conducted in a protective chamber in the test lab. This extreme test required that the breaker trip three times without igniting cotton affixed to the handle, to be able to be reset, and to pass a dielectric test. These breakers were then broken up and discarded.

[@MarcoPolo-jg1em]

Thank you for the interesting information.

[@petercampbell4220]

Also the time current curve would probably not trip a 20 amp breaker at 22 amps. It may run fine at 26 amps. Want to test thermals? Build your own cheap "toaster" tester. 3 electric heaters plugged into a test rig wired to breaker being tested. As above much better to have a low voltage source-not possible in a house. Add load until tripped. Should trip at 150% rated current within a minute or so. YMMV, a nuclear plant breaker does not like nuisance trips. Dont even bother with stab lock from FPE. Don't touch the panel. Once a knowledgeable person touches it, he owns it (litigeus NY here) . Stab locks did not age poorly, they were cheaters and defective out of the box- they have no excuse.

[@snarp98]

ElectroBoom demonstrated the time delay function when he installed an outdoor heater at his home.

[@fedfreds832]

Lol well then maybe all the UL listed breakers should be able to handle hundreds of trips (arc fault or amp) because I don’t know if you’ve ever done a remodel there engineer but it’s all bullshit and sometimes there’s only one way to find out where the line goes

[@gwford3]

@@fedfreds832 Circuit breakers are designed for thousands of operations within their current rating and about 50 operations when overloaded at 600% of rating. Depending on the impedance of the source and the load wiring, your short circuit could be thousands of amperes. Breaker contacts are eroded every time they are tripped with a fault current. A thermal breaker subjected to high fault current may no longer hold rated current because it now runs hot. Shorting a 20 amp branch circuit somewhat distant from the entrance panel will likely do little damage because the current is limited by the wiring. Shorting a breaker at the panel for testing will reduce its life.

[@BW12149]

Our house was built in 1981. Recently had an electrician out to correct faulty outlets in garage. He inspected our breaker panel, it was a Sylvania/GTE. I had him replace it with an up to code 200amp Eaton panel. The Sylvania didn’t show any problems but being a retired firefighter and very anal about safety, went ahead and took his advice. One of my neighbors came and looked at new panel. He has a Federal Pacific. He’s going to get his replaced as well. It’s a smart move to get the circuit breaker panel upgraded to meet local and national codes.

[@sjgrall]

I'll never forget, I was in an apartment built in 1962 where an outlet shorted, and the Federal Pacific breaker never tripped. Fortunately, I was right next to the breaker panel, and flipped it manually, since it was next to the outlet. It was then that I researched this issue.

[@bdagle]

Your right! Over the years there have been some very bad panels manufactured! However, I disagree with "Pushmatic" being put into this group. In this area, almost every Church had a Pushmatic panel located near the entrance. These breakers were used as switches to turn the lights on and off. While this was not a good idea. These breakers have withstood this abuse for 50 or 60 years! Yet when tested they still break the circuit on an overcurrent, like they did when they were new! This speaks to the manufacturing quality of these breakers.

[@5roundsrapid263]

Breakers that aren’t flipped regularly go bad faster. Pushmatic breakers were grease-fed, so using them regularly kept the grease from drying out.

[@albduke]

I just tell the customer too much liability involved with that equipment for me to even touch it. I just tell them to replace it. Good explanation of all this old equipment

[@havox112]

I just love doing remodels with Feddy Pacific panels. Have enough money to get your open concept kitchen but can't spent 1-2k on a panel swap.

[@victorwanstreet3038]

@@havox112 sometimes the panel swap can be 5-10 thousand

[@prairiefarmer5994]

@@havox112 people don’t know what they don’t know. Saying a panel swap is 1-2k is laughable though. I’m replacing the panel in my house. The dual function and afci breakers alone are over a grand.

[@garbo8962]

Cont. Never observed a pushmatic breaker that overheated or caused breaker above it to burn like murry breakers did. We had close to a thousand of them at large slaughterhouse that I worked out in the 1970's. Only problem was a flush mounted pushmatic panel located in a damp boning room that got hosed down every night. Top breakers would have to be replaced about once a year due to water leakage. The thousand or so homes built in the early 60's where I live all had pushmativ panels. At least 75% of them still in service. ITE who made pushmatic breakers & panels made the best safety switch in the world. They were like a timex took a beating and still keept on ticking. Was able to get replacememt guts the very few times one went bad. Siemens bought out ITE and turned the Cadillac of safety switches into garbage. FP & Zinco were garbage. Replaced some that were not even 10 years old. Another great thing about pushmatic is they are the only large scale residental breaker that bolted on to the quality bus bar. Even the pushmatic were best around. When I replaced my service 30 years ago put the original pushmatic panel in the garage as a sub panel. Still working great.

[@thedonald1029]

I have like 50 extra pushmatic breakers

[@garbo8962]

@@thedonald1029 I removed a least a hundred of them from a supermarket that was made into a carpet sales store. Had the red labels on them. Had to be at least 25 years old. Hung onto to them for awhile but was afraid to reuse them. With life time liability was afraid that if I did use them and something happened some scum bag ambulance chasing lawyer would take me to the cleaners. Looked into pushmatic breakers on google and the 2 big problems were they sometimes did not turn circuit off when button was not pushed in with enough force and only had a thermal trip device where other company breakers were thermal magnetic trip.

[@thedonald1029]

@@garbo8962 I'll hang onto them, brand new they are like $85 and up

[@ronb6182]

I remember them pushmatic breakers in Jr high school all the panels had them. We also used them on stage we could follow people crossing the stage by turning on and off set spot lights. There were also main breakers for the light panel I would like to see a safety video on the light panel of it's day. We had one shoot sparks out because there was a bad breaker or short. The breaker always tripped and should have been a red flag to repair the light panel but when you let a eighth grader run the show and not report problems anything can happen I should have over stepped my bounds but would get called out not knowing anything about electrical devices. This should have been avoided but there goes the fault of leadership in school. The first problem is you never should use a circuit breaker for a switch there should have been separate switches on the light panel for turning certain lights on and off there were dimming features on the panel but a switch should be in place for turning lights on and off not a protection breaker. Well the story goes I said out loud the light panel is on fire and run across the stage at least my friend knew to turn off the main and everything on stage went black. So I wasn't the fool running across the stage after all .73

[@Journeyman2585]

I'm an electrician in Tennessee, and I've seen all of these panels at one time or another. Federal Pacific and challenger quite a lot.

[@Roy_Tellason]

This 100-year-old house used to have a main cutoff switch and a couple of really humongous fuses connected to the incoming feed, and then going to the breaker panel. Moisture ingress via the feed caused a fault that pretty much removed one of the two phases, which was fun while it lasted. Replacing the fuse (150A!) fixed the immediate problem, but eventually the panel was replaced, as was everything outside up to the weatherhead. Significant pucker factor watching the guy who did the job messing with those wires coming off the pole, but he got it done. And he re-used all of the original breakers, which meant that we had some fun with a new dryer running with no heat. We had to get him back out again to replace that breaker...

[@isettech]

Before shorting any circuit to test a breaker, pay attention to the size and location of the transformer. A pole pig on the street 2 houses down will have different levels of available fault current than that pad mount next to the garage feeding the convenience store on the other side of the alley. They do make proper test equipment to test the magnetic and thermal side of breakers, but very few electricians have access to meter and relay equipment. Situational awareness is important when testing for fault current. Be aware an old splice may shoot sparks in a short circuit test. This may be in a wall or in the attic with or without a box in older construction. Remember, most older homes used electricity for lights, the vacuum, the radio, the fridge, and if wealthy, the TV and washing machine. This was in the day people hung out laundry to dry. With modernization, electric dryers, stoves, water heaters, computers, power tools, etc were added to outdated panels. Keep this in mind when testing in older homes.

[@johnhpalmer6098]

Keep in mind that's IF it's not been updated at all. I bought an old house in 2016, built we think in 1908, but the panel had already been replaced at some point with an FTE panel, yep, I had that replaced. It was 200A/240V service too. I think my current panel is by Square D. Sadly, the house still has some K&T still in service. An earlier inspection revealed it to be about 30% still. The rest was Romex/non metalized cabling. We kept the 200A/240V the same, just with a current panel. Also, the house had a back porch get enclosed in the late 60's and it was wired up and plumbed into a laundry porch, and yes, it's all Romex in there and galvanized pipping for the washer (the kitchen is galvanized too, though the bathroom, redone in 2009 may not be galvanized).

[@freetolook3727]

One of the problems with these breakers and panels is they were fine when they were made but as electrical loads over the years have increased, they become substandard. Houses in the 1920's and 1930's only had lighting. There was no electric refrigerators, TVs, kitchen appliances, hair dryers, etc.

[@normferguson2769]

I had a dead animal smell in my house occasionally. A few months later I spotted a hot spot in my old 1974 breaker panel and found the screw to the buss had broken and was heating up, burning the breaker plastic. The burnt plastic was what smelled! Caught it before it caused a fire!

[@kylestan2250]

In factories breakers are/were tested every 6 months with equipment to find "hot" breakers" lugs and connections checked for snugness, loose connections retorqued due to vibration....in areas that had negligible vibration could still find loose connections............temperature changes[both room and device], load fluctuations, vibration, can and will cause loose connections in a residential panel.

[@LloydBrinker]

@Norm Ferguson Was the dead animal smell only in a certain part of the house? I'm having a similar issue and I can't find a cause. The smell is only in the room with the panel. I don't notice outside. I replaced all my receptacles last year. I haven't noticed any issues with my panel. They trip when overloaded. I may have to open the panel up and look.

[@normferguson2769]

@@LloydBrinker the smell was in an area about 12 from the panel

[@Enlightn76]

Pushmatics are little odd, but I've not seen them act up or cause any safety issues. Zinsco and Fed Pacific are house burners though...

[@sirnatanielson]

I do like the bolt-on feature with the Pushmatics. I just did a service call today where an older ITE had three charred away bus bar stabs. It just showed me that improperly seated breakers can lead to problems too.

[@wizard3z868]

problem with pushmatics they love to corrode and the springs get brittle if they where used as switches a lot other than tht i haven't noticed any issues with them but i recommend to pple who have these to think about replacing them

[@kenbrown2808]

@@sirnatanielson aluminum busbars are crap. I saw a house where the aluminum busbars failed before the house was trimmed out.

[@jeremiahbrown9328]

I've got a cheap ass project manager who refuses to throw away our old fed Pacific parts. It's an accident waiting to happen

[@kenbrown2808]

@@jeremiahbrown9328 a lot of electricians hang on to FPE and zinsco breakers for emergency replacements

[@caseycooper5615]

Ditto the others about avoiding the shorting two wires test. I would edit that out of the video. Not a great idea to plant in a newbies head, no matter what caveats you give. However, I wanted to comment on the cost for installing modern versions of the classic breakers. My experience is they are $80 - $100 each. Say a typical house has 30 breakers: that's $2400 in material, plus labor. Even the fanciest GFCI/AFCI breakers cost a little over half the price of the replica breakers. Eaton has a drop-in replacement panel ("guts") that can fit in a variety of existing enclosures and they claim is UL 67 listed for all appropriately sized enclosures. No tearing out enclosures with all the demo and patching work! Inspectapedia advocates this. It won't trigger a requirement for AFCI breakers, but the inspector at worst may require a $30 AFCI receptacle to protect existing circuits. Also, if the existing grounding system is inadequate, upgrading it is the right thing to do anyway. The other point is what I observed when watching Dustin's video about replacing breakers on his Zinsco panel. In particular was the damage to the buss bar where his main breaker was attached. He even admitted that gave him more incentive to do a full panel and enclosure upgrade. I get how you are advocating giving a solution to customers who can't afford a full panel upgrade. You are to be commended wanting to give them a fair shake and not squeezing every penny you can. I just feel a panel (breaker holder) replacement with modern standard breakers, along with other external requirements is the minimum I'd do. Otherwise I wouldn't touch any of it, so the customer doesn't get a sense of false security. I've told them the dangers and gave a reasonable solution. I could sleep alright knowing I was fair and honest.

[@PowderMill]

I’m currently 58, an EE and volunteer firefighter/paramedic. When I was 10, I was visiting my paternal grandparents at their apartment. They owned a combination building and lived on the 3rd floor above retail stores and additional apartments below. I had seen a welder repairing a steel gate protecting the retail store and decided I was going to become a “welder” and convinced my 80+ year old grandfather that I was capable of building a “welder”. The 1860’s building had been rewired in the 1960’s/1970’s and all branch circuits were aluminum as well as the feeders for the 8 FPE (yup… FEDERAL PACIFIC KABOOM BREAKERS) sub-panels. I cut the alligator clamps on one end of an automotive jumper cables. (Crappy #6 copper cables). I opened the sub panel in their top floor apartment and (wearing leather gloves for “protection”) used a spare 20amp single pole breaker to feed one of the jumper cable conductors and attacked the other conductor to the neutral bus. I then conned Grandpa into driving to the local industrial hardware store to pick up some “welding sticks”. OMG… when I think back on how I almost burn their building (and HOME) down. OR.. electrocuted, myself or others… Yup… welding worked like a charm! The 20 amp breaker never tripped . NEVER tripped! But… the 100a 2-pole breaker feeding the sub panel from the basement service TRIPPED after 20 minutes of “fun”. The service was ALL Square-D QO btw… I still can’t figure out why the electrician opted for cheap with everything else .? Well… after a while, I started feeling like I had sand in my eyes. Yup… “ flash burn” . I quickly disconnected everything, thought, molten metal had somehow burned both of my eyes and was forced to call Mom and Dad because my weeklong trip had to end and I need it eye care ASAP. Damn good breakers - those Federal Pacific breakers never tripped. ! 🤣 To this day, I think God that I didn’t hurt anyone or burn the non-sprinklered building down. My eyes healed up within a week of “patching” and my grandfather never said a word. He simply said I was watching workers doing some welding…. RIP Grandpa! Btw - I inherited that building after aa few years and sold it for college tuition funds. (it was located in Orange, New Jersey, big time ghetto, so it didn’t cover grad school.. LOL) Great channel, great video, and great community! Thanks

[@jolyonwelsh9834]

I have absolutely no problem with the ITE Pushamatics because they bolt right on to the bus bars. I believe that all circuit breakers should bolt on to the busses.

[@fedfreds832]

So Siemens breakers where the conductor is torqued within a bolt is different than a bolt on breaker just because it’s “bolted on” you understand theres a torque setting for a reason. No need for bolt on breakers especially when working on panels live makes it more dangerous and also bolt on breakers are trash

[@jolyonwelsh9834]

@@fedfreds832 Bolt on breakers are less prone to burning up the bus tabs if they are properly torqued down.

[@fedfreds832]

@@jolyonwelsh9834 that’s the point no need for a bolt on breaker if the torque is proper this ain’t the 70’s no more we don’t neee bolt one

[@jolyonwelsh9834]

@@fedfreds832 Well then, why do they use them in hospitals, an application which requires the utmost in reliability?

[@fedfreds832]

@@jolyonwelsh9834 if you think a bolt on breaker is more reliable than so be it personal opinion. In my opinion there’s a torque setting for a reason and using a standard breaker vs a bolt on will give you the same result. If you think breakers should be bolted down how do you feel about outlets that let 14 wire stab in the back?

[@scottd.brutout3835]

Cant wait for your Wadsworth panel/breaker video! Fortunatley "my" Wadsworth panel is at a permanant campsite in a campground (circa 1950's-60's), 70' away from my camper, and feeding a new exterior subpanel. I did install a replacement (new) 2P 40A breaker a few years ago when I did an upgrade, so I hope I'm good (fingers crossed)! Keep putting up these great videos. I'm not an electriciain but have worked in the automaton industry for decades and really find them interesting and well presented. Peace.

[@jotnarymir1393]

Ya ive seen a couple of these in tge states. Idea for video : how to run wire in a finished wall the pro way.

[@leotexas3485]

I second this to be a good idea for a video segment ...

[@derekmorrison8687]

Third this. Would love to see it

[@adamlewellen5081]

Learn finish work, drywall, stucco, containment..

[@johnstancliff7328]

Thank you Dustin! I used to sell all these brands and I'm really glad the oldest ones are gone...

[@ryanmcallister6958]

I definitely would love to see a video on some of these more in depth.

[@anthonysmith9410]

Pushmatic is a good breaker, never seen any problems with them in my 44 years as a master electrician..

[@al2207]

agree one of the fastest tripping under fault made by Bulldog and ITE now Siemens

[@dylanlink9798]

My experience with Pushmatic has been two things: Sometime they will be in on position but providing no voltage when I test with a meter or it will be stuck in off position and never reset to on no mater how many times you push it. Also I find they are somewhat dangerous to work live as when adding one to a panel it requires you to touch the screwdriver contacting the live buss in order to tighten the screw down. Just a little bit nerve racking since I don't like to kill power to the whole house for one breaker especially if it is being occupied.

[@B81Mack]

I agree 100%, I would never voluntarily remove a Bulldog panel just because it's an old design. The narrow panel width was the only drawback, a little tough to work in. Neutral blocks became very crowded too. Bulldogs will trip too easily, if anything, but I'd rather that than no trip at all. I've seen a brand new Murray shorted and fail to trip. Also, being screw down breakers, bus contact was very good, assuming proper installation. Additionally, they were indeed UL listed, I don't know where he's getting his information. Underwriter's Laboratories has been around for quite some time, I don't agree with the statement that they're relatively new, unless one doesn't consider 1894 to be that long ago. 🤔

[@ericnortan9012]

I agree. I have changed out a lot of them only because of an upgrade, never for a failure. I have had to swap a few bad breakers over the years.

[@gregoryclemen1870]

it was the only breaker that was "BOLTED" to the buss in its day, not bad for residential equipment!!!!. I never knew of any electrical problems with the "PUSHMATIC" breakers either

[@steve-o6413]

Back in the 70's Zinsco actually lost their UL label, just a little bit of trivia I thought you might be interested in...

[@jeromewelch7409]

I've seen lots of gear with listings on it which is got to be bought and paid for because. no way does it meet the listing criteria for which it is labeled...

[@kylestan2250]

@@jeromewelch7409 I was in an engineering training class on spotting fake UL stickers.......some Chinese printing plant was churning out fake UL , CSA, & FCC labels that were being applied to counterfeit electronics, tools, motors , etc.......

[@blakelimesand1840]

I have done a panel swap out on a couple pushomatics and theirs just something about them that I love for some reason. It just makes me feel like I’m in the 50’s 😂

[@jburnes41]

they were the only bolt on residential breakers

[@normILL]

Please do those deep dives on each of these. Trying to convince my dad that his old house with some aluminum wire and a pushmatic panel needs some serious work done and would love to send him another professional's opinion.

[@kenbrown2808]

aluminum dryer or range circuits, are annoying. smaller aluminum wire is a fire waiting to happen. pushmatic breakers will be slow responding to a short.

[@davenag957]

I'm a very experienced electrician. The thought of telling someone to purposely short circuit a breaker is crazy!! There is no telling what can happen. Edit your video, take it back! I have experienced many arcing shorts in my 40 years and getting your eyes flashed or burning your fingers is something I wouldn't wish on others. I've had 6' of metal fishtape dissappear before my eyes when it shorted to a live 277/480 volt 600 amp bussbar while pulling wire through an underground steel conduit. I got flashed and lost my hearing for a bit. Little drops of molten metal bouncing around like bb's inside the panel and on the floor around me. Not fun. Saw purple for about an hour afterwards and eyes felt like sand for a day. I don't know what the inrush current was, but the pad mounted transformer was right outside building, 10' away. I know, I installed it. 120 volts from a breaker that won't trip can do plenty of damage too, don't be mistaken! Could even start a fire anywhere upstream in the circuit. Take some advice from an old crusty guy who has survived a long time in this industry, leave electrical work for the pros. The guy at the homecenter most likely knows nothing!! Oh yeah, pushmatics are great, FPE Stabloks are good for arc welding!

[@seanbouker]

I'm glad you found this video and gave that description... Most I've ever been hit with was 40 amps from a line that should've been dead... Helper was at the panel with a walkie, "I'm like ohkay that was it!" Proceeded to cut the line, luckily rubber handles are a thing God forbid my hand was on the bare metal.... I launched my linesman's a good 100', and just sat there contemplating my life choices; laid out on my back... He does service installs now...

[@andrewtibbetts9181]

It’s all fun and games until the wires you touch together weld to eachother and the breaker doesn’t trip and shit starts melting.

[@michaelbitetti5300]

@@andrewtibbetts9181 EXACTLY!

[@willschultz5452]

Never had a problem! I have a device I made that uses a heavy duty switch to short the hot to neutral, flip the switch and it trips the breaker. Sometimes it saves time looking around trying to find the breaker! Ive never had anything bad happen 🤷‍♂️. I use a heavy duty switch so it doesn't fry the switch contacts

[@willschultz5452]

@@seanbouker you don't get "hit by amps" Its how good of a conductor you are as to how badly you are shocked. You can touch a little extension cord and be standing in bare feet in a puddle and fry yourself instantly! Or you can be on a fiberglass ladder and have insulated shoes on and accidentally touch a leg of a service entrance cable and just get a minor shock. It doesn't matter how many amps a circuit is capable of carrying.

[@nick76dune]

My Zinco was replaced...it was supplying power to a waterheater. When I took it apart, I saw a melted breaker and it was making cricking fires.

[@BadReligionQL]

210.12B provides an exemption for arc faulting during service changes. Extend the circuit more than 6', then you will be required.

[@BadReligionQL]

As of 2020 NEC it appears to have been moved to 210.12D

[@Elfnetdesigns]

You should visit the south USA and see how many people care about the NEC codes. it's a JOKE down there a DANGEROUS joke..

[@jamesortolano3983]

Crouse-Hinds I believe was omitted from list .12:47 showed the side stab breaker in fact. Simple put as you stated these elec.delivery sys.,were not ment to last as long as they are doing!. Pushmatic,to change the breaker you are screwing into the live buss You omitted showing your viewers what that was,but did talk about it in detail, On commercial my choice was □-D. Reason being their buss was of heavier gauge, comparative. Federal P, sometimes when you shut them off ,nd tied to put back on ,it didn't happen!! Best advice given Change out your breakers on the load centre.(PANEL) BUT START ,a savings account to eventually change it all out from the drop,to metre pan,and the new copper feeders into your square D panel. Dont ever try to arch out your conductors!! Please leave that to people with experience, nd have done it before. You brought back a lot of memories, Thanks for the video!

[@yuri53122]

I recently had a Federal Pacific Stab-Lok panel at home replaced with a Square-D Homeline panel. It never caused any issues, but I do feel a lot safer now.

[@ericnortan9012]

Homeline are really nice panels and breakers. I like square D for service equipment. Freaking QO's are getting crazy expensive anymore, it's almost $10 a breaker (15 & 20a single pole)

[@staberdearth3130]

I do not know if this is a mandate everywhere, but in our city, if you have a FedPac panel you can not sell the house without replacing it.

[@emorales617]

I am State side and my home had a Federal Pacific stab lock breaker panel in it. I didn't know about the issues with it until I tried to find breakers to add to the box. After not being able to find any on the internet, I searched for the breaker panel and found an old 90's news clip about it being recalled. I was terrified. Needless to say I had it replaced by a licensed electrical contractor less than 30 days later.

[@pokeyreames]

I would love to see that news clip. I have never found an official recall on any FPE breakers.

[@calebs730]

Home inspector told me my Zinsco with a 70a main was ok “they don’t trip” he said He was not wrong...

[@that1electrician]

Story time! Plz do tell.

[@HBSuccess]

Home Inspection generally speaking is a scam. I’ve never met a “certified home inspector “ who knew jack squat about anything. And I’ve never read one of their canned “reports” that wasn’t just stating the obvious. It’s a way for Realtors to CYA.

[@BearMeat4Dinner]

Moved into my grandmas house 6 years ago. This joint has been in our family fir the past 70 years in San Francisco. I am the one that finally got the electrical updated. Knob n tooth around the whole place n we had those light bulb fuses that were like dealing with a loaded gun. Fun times. The joint is as old as Wrigley field! Both born da same year.

[@jackkreighbaum783]

In 1975, I bought a home in Cheyenne, WY, which had aluminum wiring. (I was ignorant of the situation and ramifications). My wife was ironing and the lights in the room started flicking. The receptacles were push-wired instead of hard-wired. I repaired them as I found a problem. I subsequently replaced the kitchen cabinets, and when we moved seven years later and took out the refrigerator, the receptacle was burned and fused at the connection with the refrigerator. The fusing saved our lives because it prevented a fire from starting. I don't recall if the boxes were metal or plastic, or the condition of the electrical panel. Be aware.

[@nics-systems-electric]

Great video the amount of federal Pacific in Canada is crazy they were installed up to the late 90s

[@darrenwoloshyn]

Federal Pioneer.

[@FireAlert]

oh hey there pickel

[@nics-systems-electric]

@@FireAlert hey what are you doing here lol

[@FireAlert]

@@nics-systems-electric well i guess i am learning about old breaker boxes, you?

[@nics-systems-electric]

@@FireAlert I just enjoy watching the videos

[@randyriegel8553]

As a DIY homeowner I had a house with a PushMatic system in it when I bought it. My uncle is a union electrician so I learned lot from him by helping him though the years on sides jobs after my day job. I figured I was up to replacing to squareD. The panel and breakers I needed only cost around $400 bucks with everything I needed. I called my friend Mike that works for AEP (American Electric Power) in Ohio. Told him my my security tag fell off and my meter fell out :) He knew what I was doing. Gave me another tag to put on meter box when I was done.

[@jsb7546]

Lol I know it's a year later but I love that "my meter fell out" gotta love friends in high places.

[@Sparky-ww5re]

Good video. Well you are on the subject of outlawed panels, you should do an article about a problem you would very rarely ever see today. It's called fused neutrals, and was used in some very old panels with knob and tube wiring. From around the turn of the century to around circa 1928, and it may have lasted a few years later if installed in a part of the country where the code adoption was slower, they used to have Edison base fuse on both the hot and neutral wires.

[@superspecialty5169]

After posting your comments don’t you proofread it for proper spelling & use to do any editing if necessary?

[@elc2k385]

Thank you for another informative video.

[@mamaswamma1234]

This is a great video thanks Dustin

[@BenKochendorfer]

I've come across this situation a few times and I like a bunch of what you've said. One thing that set up a red flag is triping a braker with the hot and neutral wires. I can see how the thought prosses of minimal damage is being done to the system wires. With that said there are rules in some areas that state a once a braker has been flipped due to a falt in the system it must be replaced after the second time this happens. I know the ridiculousness of this comment. But the idea is after you test a breaker this way what are the possibilities it will not work the next time, and approving the system as safe.

[@woodlandburl6648]

Thanks for the great information.

[@dodgeguyz]

We had a pushmatic in our house when we moved in. Never had an issue. But I upgraded it to a GE 150A panel. It was 45 years old when I replaced it.

[@mxslick50]

You actually downgraded it, GE breakers are crap. High defect rates out of the box, and very slow response to short circuits. Eaton, SqD and Siemans are all much better than GE and most of those cost less than GE as well.

[@bobroberts2371]

Pushmatic. I do some work in a factory that was built in 1960, it has Bulldog branded Pushmatic panels for 120 older office / bathroom loads, only one or two panels have a 240 breaker. The bus duct is Bulldog too but that has been fine.

[@stevebabiak6997]

Space heaters are going to be the load test device for a breaker when evaluating current draw and time to trip. You might need multiple units to overload a 20A circuit.

[@brandong6244]

I deal with a ton of pushmatic , I appreciate the info and will be looking forward to the breakdowns!

[@brandong6244]

They constantly get stuck when dirt and grime gets in there . Faulty on/ off windows also cause a lot confusion for the home owners. Im glad I now realize the old ones are outlawed, I will be swapping them out asap!

[@cward1954]

Years ago, I had a GE panel in a house built in 1972. That particular panel had a bus that was aluminum, possibly could have been pure aluminum. When the A/C would turn on, you could actually hear an arcing sound. The breaker was hot to the touch and it had actually melted the plastic on the back of the breaker. Eventually, that whole panel was replaced.

[@ericnortan9012]

Good thing. If you waited much longer your whole house may have needed replaced

[@sparkymyrl]

Federal Pacific lost their UL listing. All the others, off of being bought and sold they stopped manufacturing those panels. The government has a law that the manufactures have to produce replacement product for x numbers of years. Time up and the production is stopped. That's what happened to the other brands you mention. Breakers can not be sold with out testing, trip time, overload, and fault, that's why they have a UL listing.

[@B81Mack]

UL was founded in 1894, sonny.

[@jamm6676]

Good stuff bro thank you for the vids🔥🔥🔥

[@colinstu]

gonna be a great series

[@_steffinwolf_]

Our house, built in 1957, had a 100A Pushmatic panel that was woefully overloaded due to so many electrical devices that are now part of daily living. When we first moved into the house in 2001 we had many overload issues and some of the old breakers failing. Soon enough all but the main were cycled through and newer breakers. Also most of the receptacles throughout the house were non-grounded type, with but a few exceptions in bathrooms and for garbage disposal location. Somehow all of this questionable circuitry passed inspection. A couple years ago we had solar panel system installed, which required an updated & relocated panel. We now have 200A Square D panel, but SCE chose a location that is on south (sunny/hot) side of house. In summer I have to place patio umbrella in front to shade panel as it gets extremely hot during heatwave periods.

[@jonathan3518]

Have an old sub panel that ran a furnace I was going to use to run garage power. Turns out that would be an awful idea. Thanks for this.

[@JMjayesim]

0:48 That comment and the subtitles after that comment made me lol so hard 🤣

[@jonathanmartinez9308]

Was just working on a challenger panel recently. It's 4 residential condo complexes maybe about 40 100A challenger panels. when we went through them few burnt wires under breakers but nothing too terrible. Everything else was labeled and tight.

[@jonathanmartinez9308]

Was working on another one somewhere else went to pop out 2 pole 50 breakers plastic feet broke off

[@djfrank59]

Back in the 60's (and earlier) FPE panels and breakers were cheap to buy and profitable, and most electrician's used them. The average breaker price was anywhere from a buck per breaker for a SP Stab-Lok and $2.25 for a DP up to 30 amps. Can't go wrong; right? Well, we eventually found out that you got what you paid for. I clearly remember the FPE 108-16 was the go-to panels for an average 100 amp service. and the panels took either 8 FPE type NA breakers or 16 type NC breakers. I never liked FPE from day one, I used to use Murray panels and breakers. much better breaker than the FPE. Murray eventually was acquired by Couse HInds back in the late 70's through the early 90's, and then bought out by ITE. ITE for the longest time had a run of bad breakers where they would burn up under a resistive load (anything with heating elements) I remember seeing ITE breakers with holes burnt through the sides of the breaker. I've been using Square D 95% of the time, But they are even getting cheap with their build quality. Plastic rails and cheap metal bus bars. Even though Edison-base glass fuses had their drawbacks, they were still a good method of over-current protection if you put the right sized fuse in as a replacement and not pennies. at least the proper sized fuse would blow.

[@russellhancock9765]

I worked for an Electrician for a very short time. We went to do a service change once. The guy had a welder with the long round fuses that are like a cartridge. They had given Him trouble, so He put copper pipe in place of the fuses. My boss asked Him if He wasn't concerned that He might start a fire like that. He told My boss that You can't burn down a concrete block building. How do You deal with a person like that?

[@wizard3z868]

cash only and no paper trail lol

[@kenbrown2808]

show him pictures of burned out cinder block buildings.

[@gregoryclemen1870]

I deal with a person like that with" either I repair the problem , or get someone else" and walk away!!!

[@jburnes41]

pushmatic might have been one of the best breakers ever. they just did not have the cabinet size needed.

[@jcaleca60]

Yes I was putting in a lot of Federal Pacific Breakers and the early 1970s the company I work for we get a lot of houses only to find out half the time they didn't trip I'm in my late sixties now I have spinal stenosis love being electrician but it takes its toll on your body

[@WalterKnox]

when testing breakers i made a box with a switch and a light socket, to test the breaker you put a fuse in the light socket that is larger than the circuit you are testing, so if it was a 15 amp circuit you put a 20 or 30. when you turn on the switch the breaker should trip, if the fuse blows then the breaker is bad.

[@kenbrown2808]

a fuse will react to a bolted fault faster than a magnetic trip breaker can react.

[@WalterKnox]

@@kenbrown2808 that is why it only works for a smaller circuit. If you are testig a 15 with a 15 amo circuit it will blow before the breaker trips. So i use a 30 amp fuse, a 20 mau work as well but i am notnsure, but for 15 and 20 amp circuits a 30 amp fuse works fine and i have only had the fuse blownwhen the breaker actually did not trip.

[@donaldfrederick1557]

On the first house I bought had a FP panel. When I turned on the kitchen light the stove came on. A breaker in the panel shorted across the bus

[@wizard3z868]

a lug on an old edison bus bar to a ceramic porcelain lamp base in a pinch is a great simple repair to a damaged fuse socket also same concept works great as an equipment disconnect or a branch feeder. my old workplace had a bunch of electric blowers tht where all tied into one heavy amp line with a bunch of porcelains with 15 amp fuses next to them. our electrical eng. came up with the idea for 1950's repair on the fly in todays world

[@JonasVilander]

For whatever my $0.02 are worth, I vote you do Challanger after FP & Zinsco/Sylvania. I kid you not, one of the first things my inspector told me for the inspection of the house we just bought was that "that's the first time I've seen a Challenger panel", and he didn't mark it as a deficiency in his report. The only reason I found out that Challenger was a problem(shortly after the inspection) was because I was pretty paranoid about certain things(like electrical, certain plumbing, etc) being hazards(the house I grew up in had an electrical fire that killed one of my brothers), and I did some independent research on it, and was relatively paranoid about panels after running into other 1960s homes with aluminum wiring and FP and Zinsco panels(that the inspector did catch). Mind you this isn't an extremely old house, as it was built in the early 90s, and relatively high-end custom home too. I don't want to give him too much grief, because everyone has gaps in their knowledge(hell even the relatively young Master Electrician that replaced my panel, didn't know you shouldn't run high-voltage wires

[@Rich-oz8ut]

I have a situation I need help with. We do service work on a high rise apartment building in Trenton NJ. Most calls are for electric heat no working. When we open the panels I find that the 2pole 20amp breaker is bad and has been arcing on the buss bar behind the breaker. Occasionally the main breaker will be affected also from the heat generated from the faulty breaker usually right next to the 70amp main breaker. The panel and breakers are Bryant with the color reset handles. I don’t know if any recalls exist that I have found on these breakers but we are experiencing more and more of this recently. Normally we have to shut down the entire circuit in the basement and remove the main breaker and I clean up the buss bar with a file and replace with a new Bryant breaker usually old stock we buy online. The problem has come up and it’s coming up more and more where the buss bar is beyond burnt up and there’s no way to use that breaker space anymore and now the panel needs to be replaced. The issue then arises how to go about this. The main feeders are a continuous uncut run of 500mcm in a 2” conduit run from the basement all the way up to the top floor. They are not cut inside the panel. They use tap lugs to attach a smaller 2awg conductor that then goes to the main breaker. So theres no way to actually remove the damaged panel without cutting the main feeders. If you did cut them how do you reconnect them now that they are too short and so big you can’t really maneuver them much in such a small space. What we started doing was replacing the panels on the top floor where the feeders end and we can remove that entire panel then using that old panels bus bar in the effected panel on a lower floor but I’m running out panels on the top floor to do this. These Bryant panels are strange. Kinda have a larger space off to the side to allow for the feeders to run directly through and have space for the insulated taps for the feeders to the main. The feeders pass through the panel. Can’t cut them. Can’t remove the panel. Can’t find replacement buss bar that will work and fit the panel covers. They are 12 circuit. Main breaker. If anyone has come across this please help. I can provide more information and pictures if needed. Thanks guys.

[@SudburyMan]

Good old Bull Dog panels... Still have NOS, same with Blue Line (scary), Stab Lok.. scary too.. been involved with a faulty panel. Never ever forget the results.. PTSD indeed.

[@gsxrsquid]

The first house I bought had Zinsco. One day I was walking by the panel and I heard a sizzling sound. I pulled the meter to kill power and pulled all the breakers. The spring tension was so weak where they clamped on the bus that they barely made contact and were burning. the bus was aluminum and the breaker contacts were copper?!?!?!?!? I got some copper bars and cut them to size. Bought all new breakers (You could still get them then) A few years later I heard about all the houses that burned because of the Zinsco panels. Years later bought a house with the old glass fuses. They had 350 amps worth of fuses in a 100 amp panel......SMH

[@gdhskdjdhhdjsjdjxbu3519]

Orytttt!! Watching from the Philippines!! Keep it up sir!

[@GH-oi2jf]

I have a Challenger sub-panel in my condo. The condo conversion was done in the early 1990s, so it isn’t ancient. Breakers are still available from Eaton. I’m assuming this panel is ok. Am I correct?

[@jimharris1590]

Very good!!

[@dutchleussink156]

Thank You Sir 👍

[@Martin4Mary4Ever]

Thank you soo much for this video. These have been a pain in my arse but I've not been able to find a good lead to learn more about them. (I didn't know of the names of these buggers beforehand)

[@topher8634]

If you take the stripped ends of the hot and neutral conductors, lay one stripped end on the insulation of the other and slowly slide it up until they are making contact and hold them firmly together until the breaker trips. You will hear and feel a hum. If the breaker fails to trip, you will have to pull them apart and you want to do so quickly. Its best to have a pair of Kliens handy in case the conductors weld. There will be an arc when they separate. I see failure to trip quite often with GE breakers and panels.(aside from the brands mentioned in this video)

[@alphaconombo9782]

Wassup bro thank you very much for your video it is really helpful for electrician and student that are learning electricity . May God bless you and keep making videos to impact people lives .Am Alpha living in africa one of your viewer's and followers on youtube thank you again

[@coreyday2148]

Thanks brother..🤛🏾🤛🏾🤛🏾

[@danr7715]

Just came across you channel, not many U.S based electrician youtubers, ive replaced dozens of the. FPE, and a few zynsco's...havnt seen any of those others, looking forward to seeing how those other firestarters compare.

[@electricidadbasicaparaprin6459]

Hey good job on every videos

[@cali-electro-dad]

Can you please point to the code section that requires upgrading to AFCI breakers when changing a panel? My understanding of the exception to 210.12(D) is that if the branch circuit (wire from final OCPD to outlet) is not changed and no new devices are added, then no AFCI is required.

[@gregmercil3968]

I’m an HVAC service tech, a rookie one at that. This is pretty interesting stuff. Consider me subscribed.

[@allangoh5107]

Awesome video!!! These old daddies had taught us a lot. They improved our troubleshooting skills as the younger generation. Glad to have chance working on them.

[@Rahayammakon]

Really enjoy your videos,just had company change and in the new company they just do service calls....I was wondering if you could make some videos about service calls issues like smoke detectors...grounding....generator and transfer switches etc. thanks

[@igorpiedade]

What about Bryant ? Are they outlawed ? I have a Zynsco outdoor panel that I'm looking to replace and a Bryant indoor sub-panel that I'll replace in the future, but I can't do it right now.

[@WyattH]

What about commander panels I have one in my house some people say they are ok and some people say replace immediately

[@craigslaunwhite579]

I believe challenger and commander are affiliated

[@MadMetalShop]

I inherited a zinser panel that someone double tapped my 1 awg al shop feed into my 4-0 200 amp main breaker and a lot of the strands were cut to make it fit 😬.

[@cward1954]

Not good. To say the least.

[@phillipsofthedriver]

15:20 ish. I'm just a handyman with a gadget problem. I got a FLIR attachment for my phone, mostly to find problems in walls, panels, heat leakage around doors & windows, circuit boards, car things, etc. I showed one of my clients where her major heat leakage in her house was on a cold day, and recommended some licensed contractors to fix those issues. Some I could fix like adding some weather stripping around doors. Beyond that you need a contractor's license, or risk the wrath of the CSLB.

[@jonathancall9967]

Do you know if siemens breakers will fit BR Cutler Hammer breaker panels?

[@hgbugalou]

Good timing. Essential Craftsman just replaced a Federal Pacific home ignition system with a new panel. This may give some other people options if they can't afford a new panel. With all AFCI now, you need a second mortgage for your panel in the best of conditions.

[@luckyhiker3434]

Very good Justin!

[@workingshlub8861]

i worked at a apartment complex that had a fire years ago ...guy was smoking with oxygen and burned out 6 units...anyway long story short it was public housing and they got federal money to add sprinklers and new fire panels....it was around 1 million in total renovations but of course they never bothered to replace all the federal pacific stab lock panels in the units...

[@lelandclayton5462]

I am a bastardized electrician, as in I do low volt stuff. Some times I've worked with electrical stuff like adding a electrical outlet 6ft high for a TV mounting or swap out light switches for smart switches. Anyway, even I know shorting out 110/120 to trip a breaker is a no no.

[@sirnatanielson]

The contractor I'm working for right now just picked up a contract where we're going to swap out all the FP panels in all the apartments in this complex. Around 100 or so I think? And they're all aluminum wired units. Plus, the service disconnects are all FP as well of course, so it's gonna be a big swap job this year! And aww, poor Pushmatic. One of these days I'll find time to swap out my Pushmatic in my house. Should really try tripping them. I haven't had one trip yet, so part of me wonders about that.

[@kenbrown2808]

gut the apartments and make a fresh start - they'll probably save money. and I've never had pushmatics fail to trip. I've had them wear out and trip too easy.

[@Slightlysalty1]

I feel like I’ve unknowingly been playing Russian roulette for the last 20+ years! After watching this video, I checked my panel and of course it’s Federal Pacific. This house was built in 1980, I bought it in 2000. According to quick research, the panel was already outlawed when I purchased. 😠 How and why the inspector didn’t address this is beyond me but it sure makes me angry. About 20 years ago, when the well pumps breaker repeatedly tripped, I hired an electrician to fix the problem. He replaced a 15A breaker with a 20A and switched the pumps to draw 220 instead of 110. He never mentioned the panel. Neither did the electrician who ran wire for a room addition in 2005. Which was never hooked to the panel due to lack of space (but that’s another contractor horror story) I have exterior receptacles that do not work, very sketchy outdoor switch and receptacle wiring, interior switches that seemingly do nothing, a ceiling fan that stopped working, switches that get warm, receptacles that get hot and a terribly mislabeled panel. I’ve no idea what rooms half the breakers are for. Except for the well pump issue, the breakers never trip. Reasonably, I’m now worried. I’d like to have this entire house rewired and a new electrical panel installed. Obviously, it needs to be addressed but it sounds like a $5-10k job. Bringing it all up to code would be great but that work just isn’t in the budget.

[@MasterTheNEC]

Dustin - I would be interested in your data. I have been involved in many of these discussions for years. When you say "outlawed", none of the manufacturers you discussed were ever "outlawed". In fact, with Federal Pacific is was a class action suit in NJ and location specific. Zinsco was never an issue with the devices, it was the decaying Aluminum bus. Even the " stab-loc" design is still in use within Canada and is owned by Schneider. Anyway, there is alot of historical data on these things so again lots of "death" statements so I again would be interested in your data my friend.

[@lorenguaylg]

I've been looking for a bulldog breakers for years. It's the only breaker I read about that needed greasing.

[@SudburyMan]

I have some here...

[@al2207]

Pushmatic very fast tripping breaker were made also by ITE that was bought by Siemens

[@neilkurzman4907]

Connecticut electric makes replacement breakers for pushMatic

[@Chris_In_Texas]

5:36 Ah the Square D XO series. Seen many of melted ones of these! 🔥🔥🧯🧯🚒🚒

[@gregoryclemen1870]

yup!!!, those things are "JUNK"!!!!

[@nicholasfattizzi6168]

Apologies if you addressed this and I missed it but does Connecticut electric or anyone else make AFCI or GFCI breakers for the death trap panels that you've seen?

[@kenbrown2808]

I've seen both Zinsco and FP GFCI breakers.

[@martingonzalez529]

As an apprentice I really, really appreciate all this information 👍

[@raymondgarafano8604]

Ur a good man Gonzalez, always rad up on ur work and everything electric, you could really come across something fishy looking and remember reading about cementing ur thots this is a bad situation. Keep up on electrical theorey.

[@vladaar2798]

Episode suggestion. I noticed homedepot does a project guide where they tell you how to wire a circuit breaker. What about Electrician U version of this with a discussion on how to chose the proper material, fishing wire through a wall and wiring one circuit up for a receptacle or something.

[@SparkyPreacher]

What about Bryant? Ran across one recently that had the lower split bus. The breaker that fed the lower bus bar had a burnt wire. 4 breakers were effected

[@electricianslife1984]

Love this guy

[@ottoroth9377]

I can add GE home panels to the outdated or trouble list. The ones installed back in the 70 and 80's have loose breakers, widened spacing on the stab plates, breakers which do not trip when called for arcing...etc. Many times you can just replace the old breakers with new ones, and other times just swap out the panel. One thing about GE panels is there is a main house disconnect breaker which shuts off all the 110, but the 220 is left without any main breaker protection.

[@SquishyZoran]

How does that even work then?

[@Imwright720]

My friend was having a problem with her breaker panel. An electrician had come out and wouldn’t work on it. He said it was to old. He didn’t say it was unsafe. I told her I would come take care of it. It was federal pacific. I had never heard of it before. Turns out Ace Hardware carries a replacement brand . I picked one up and went over. Actually she just wasn’t resetting the breaker correctly and that’s all it needed. A few days ago I asked my friend who owns a State Farm about insuring a home with polybutylene. He said they won’t insure anything unless it was built after a certain year. He also brought up they wouldn’t insure anything with these breakers because of fires. That brought me here.

[@jfbeam]

The problem with replacing them... you don't know what the bus bar looks like until you pull the breakers. If it's damaged, you can't shove a breaker back on top of it. Maybe there's room elsewhere in the panel, but in my experience, that's usually not the case. (the nuts that used these (zinsco) appear to always install the smallest panel they could find.) [When the difference is $75, put the largest panel that will fit. That $75 is way cheaper than replacing the panel, or adding a sub.] [Also, Zinsco's have been used up into the 80's.]

[@lousassol3]

Alot of TERRIBLE advice in this. 1: Connecticut Electric junk isnt UL listed. Most business insurance policies WONT cover you if you install that garbage, and the NEC specifically forbids it. No reputable electrician would touch that brand. 2. Telling someone to purposely dead short a live circuit to test it is insane. You have NO idea what the condition of the splices and conductors between the short and breaker are like. This is a great way to smoke a wire nut, feed through receptacle or old soldered connection when the breaker fails to trip. They make load testers for a reason. 3. Charging a customer to replace all the breakers in these obsolete panels doesnt address the issues with them in the first place aka Split Bus bars/disconnect rules, and bad breaker to bus connections. FPEs fail to trip due to design. CE FPE breakers DO NOT address this. Zinscos fret and melt the bus, challenger bus bars melt, etc. If a customer cant currently afford to replace the service, they certainly cant afford to waste money fake "updating" it either.

[@rpsmith]

Richard is on the money here!

[@walterbordett2023]

Connecticut Electric replacement breakers are ETL tested to UL standards, (per their website). It is my understanding that NEC and OSHA recognize a formal list of certified testing laboratories as equivalent to UL testing. The list includes UL, CSA, TUV,ETL, and others. ETL is now a division of Intertek, which is an international testing lab organization that has expertise in other types of safety testing as well as electrical testing. I have personally toured an ETL facility in Cortland NY and it is a world class facility that knows what it is doing and its listing can be trusted as a faithful test to the applicable NEMA and UL standards. ETL is well represented in the NEC Code Making panels and has a good reputation world wide in the testing of electrical and specialized equipment ( especially medical equipment) to US and international standards. I have no connection to ETL other than my contacts with them over my 40 years involved with medical equipment and hospital electrical systems.

[@bobroberts2371]

# 2, " Bridging a hot and neutral by hand only if you are trained " Nope, never. I'd like to see the " training " involved in doing this not to mention the spark / ball of molten copper that lands on the floor and sets the rug on fire.

[@rpsmith]

@@bobroberts2371 - I've use a 20 amp switch to do this in the past but it's hard on the breaker and the switch and could cause some arching on other connections as it makes its way back to the breaker panel.

[@fnckyou2]

Thank you!