Outliers, Revisited | Revisionist History | Malcolm Gladwell

Did Malcolm Gladwell blow it in his bestselling book Outliers? What if all he did was write a primer for neurotic helicopter parents? To find out, Revisionist History descends on the University of Pennsylvania to run a roomful of eager students through a mysterious experiment, complete with Sharpies, huge white stickers, and a calculator. It does not end well.
Watch the experiment here: • Wharton Business Stude...
Season 7 (2022)
#podcast #revisionisthistory #malcolmgladwell #outliers #wharton #upenn #experiment
ABOUT REVISIONIST HISTORY
Revisionist History is Malcolm Gladwell’s journey through the overlooked and the misunderstood. Every podcast episode re-examines something from the past - an event, a person, an idea, even a song - and asks whether we got it right the first time. Because sometimes the past deserves a second chance.
ABOUT MALCOLM GLADWELL
Malcolm Gladwell is president and co-founder of Pushkin Industries. He is a journalist, a speaker, and the author of six New York Times bestsellers including The Tipping Point, Blink, Outliers, David and Goliath, and Talking to Strangers. He has been a staff writer for the New Yorker since 1996. He is a trustee of the Surgo Foundation and currently serves on the board of the RAND Corporation.
ABOUT PUSHKIN INDUSTRIES
Pushkin Industries is an audio production company dedicated to creating premium content in a collaborative environment. Co-founded by Malcolm Gladwell and Jacob Weisberg in 2018, Pushkin has launched seven new shows into the top 10 on Apple Podcasts (Against the Rules, The Happiness Lab, Solvable, Cautionary Tales, Deep Cover, The Last Archive, and Lost Hills), in addition to producing the hugely successful Revisionist History. Pushkin’s growing audiobook catalogue includes includes the bestselling biography “Fauci,” by Michael Specter, “Hasta La Vista, America,” Kurt Andersen’s parody Trump farewell speech performed by Alec Baldwin, "Takeover" by Noah Feldman, and “Talking to Strangers,” from Pushkin co-founder Malcolm Gladwell. Pushkin is dedicated to producing audio in any format that challenges listeners and inspires curiosity and joy.
STAY CONNECTED
Web: www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revis...
Twitter: / gladwell
Facebook: / malcolmgladwellbooks
Instagram: / malcolmgladwell
Newsletter: www.pushkin.fm/newsletter

[@malcolmgladwell]

Watch Revisionist History's trip to UPenn for the episode's experiment here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hWTWfIFoZdGYrck

[@JanAdrianusVeenstra]

I love reading your books, they really make you think differently. This illustration of the age effect on academic "performance" that translates into access to an Ivy league institution is enlightening. That those who have more are often unwilling to share is nothing new, one would hope that this is typical for only one Ivy league University, but that is probably wishful thinking.

[@L33PL4Y]

This is one of the most important episodes you've done. Fantastic work.

[@ilahjarvis]

I had the same group of kids every year in elementary school. I was one of three kids who were always in the front row for class photos because we were short, we were picked last for team sports, and so on. My birthday is in November, another kid was December, the third was in October. The bossy grade A student was born in January. While I was never diagnosed with a learning disability, It was clear that adults thought I was slow. Now I'm convinced I was just too young. I finally got over this when I became a teacher, and I watch my adult students struggle like I did as a small child. I have empathy for them, I know what it feels like to struggle with new information, but I am finally convinced there was nothing actually wrong with me.

[@Kinugwa]

I'm happy you found out.

[@lindascanlan6317]

I'm December...

[@sonwabilepapu2232]

The response from the students when they were asked if they were open to an adjustment of the tests, frightened me. Having to know you could balance the scales and still refrain from doing the right thing because it might put you in a worse state than the undeserved privilege. As humans we need to do better.

[@puncherry]

this is privileged adults unaware of their privilege and then scared to lose it because they are not good enough by themselves. and this happens everywhere, scary society we live in.

[@Firrox]

The only animal that puts others above themselves are eusocial. Think ants, bees, termites, etc. Bees are ready to die for their hive, and ants are okay with being the bottom rung on a huge ladder so everyone else can climb over them. The very nature of "normal" social animals is selfish: "me first. Then my family. Then my friends. Then everyone else." It actually makes people SUSPECT someone else when they put people above themselves. What's the catch? What are you out for? Only liars and thieves act like this right before they're going to steal something.

[@puncherry]

I like your quotes in normal, I think if we would test what human nature could be, we should try environments where our survival instinct is not triggered all the time and we define what "greater good" could be to understand that no human life is more valuable than another. I do believe that we are capable of feeling that with no catch if we embrace that nature is ..I'm going to die anyway...

[@Jopasd]

It's because power corrupts. And also the US capitalist competition driven hellscape means they're scared that if their opportunity gets adjusted out from under them then they could slip through the cracks and there's no safety net... and they're right. When society penalises people for having inherent traits it's no wonder people factor in that insanity into their survival calculation. They're not monsters, they're just reacting to the monstrous system out of fear.

[@sonwabilepapu2232]

@@Jopasd I hear you. The question is don’t you think those with ‘inherent academic abilities’ should be there instead of them? The question I pose in the statement is more so “let the best person for the job, get the job” instead of allowing unrelated privilege to prevail. Not only are we promoting high effectiveness and productivity rates but most importantly equality. Simply because something has been there for years, doesn’t exempt it from change. We acknowledge and are accountable for this current world system, so why should we not change it to accommodate the most deserving? (This is academics like any other skill in life you can improve, for as long you are determined to do so)

[@swativellodi3241]

I am really happy that Revisionist History is on KZbin now !!! wohhooo .. helps people like me also get access to this

[@geephlips]

I was old for my grade and it never occurred to me until now that that was an advantage over students with younger brains. The interesting thing is that being told I was gifted and breezing through elementary school with little effort also meant that I didn’t develop the discipline and study habits I would need when subjects got harder in junior high and high school. I came very close to flunking Geometry in 9th grade, and ended up by the end of high school getting very good grades. So perhaps I ended up where I should have been from the start.

[@mariasison3003]

no one in the hollowed halls of ivy league, big businesses or any angle of privilege imaginable would be willing to give it up for the better of society

[@freekick129]

Sadly true. And it was on full display in this video. Very frustrating

[@anon-soso-anon]

You could probably expand that to every person in the world. What are your privileges as a citizen of one of the most prosperous nations in the world that you're refusing to give up?

[@dhayes907]

We are all just animals working for our own best interests. The best we can do is to reframe peoples worldview so they can see when they are working against their own interests and show them what their best interests really are.

[@James-cz5hf]

Hallowed

[@fatfredthe28th]

@@dhayes907 , far easier said than done. Many of the people you reference absolutely refuse to reframe their worldview, or even entertain that there is a different or better one. Thusly, they will never see that they are working against their own self-interests. Just look to the political arena for never-ending examples. It's a nice idea though.

[@divalivingston1664]

The age factor is relevant. My older sister was born on September 29th and the cut off was September 30th for kindergarten. Years later, my mom said she wished she had held her back a year. I was born in one of the months of better opportunity, but I have dyslexia. I'd like to have had some compensation for that! I wasn't aware of it until much later so all the time I thought I just wasn't getting it. It won't ever be as simple as an algorithm adjusting the scores to get the ideal situation. This was an excellent presentation.

[@loriclyke2143]

So happy I found you here. Love reading and hearing your thoughts and ideas!

[@kristoffernordman6900]

Wow Malcolm! Keep at it! Your work is not finished here, and I think this is one of your historic footprints!!!

[@puncherry]

this is incredible, I'm a January child from Latin America, and our school starts in March, so anyone born before March is a year younger, the difference was noticeable, this is a life changer, I understand so much about my schooling now.

[@Old_Jack_Ketch]

That was fascinating… I find it interesting that (the one female student, at least, and I’m assuming she’s typical) the students have no trouble leaning into the idea of racial privilege, but having an advantage of 12 months over someone else gets a more hostile reaction. That genuinely surprised me.

[@laurajroot]

You're right. It's almost as if they can't do anything about their race, so they are ok about accepting that, but when it comes to age, they get more defensive about that. Like it's more personal to them or something.

[@Old_Jack_Ketch]

@@laurajroot You’re right, and I wonder why. It’s not like we have any more control over our age than our race. I’m just spitballing here, but I wonder if it’s because ‘white’ is a big umbrella that we share with many people, but your birthday is much more ‘yours’, individual and specific.

[@secretcinemalagos5662]

It's insightful and really good points on your comments. The individualistic element of it is challenging an identity that hadn't been challenged often or before in their minds

[@laurajroot]

@@Old_Jack_Ketch I agree. We don't have control over our age, but by being a little older, they/we are defensive. I have big feet and shrug it off because I can't do one thing about it. Same with being white. We can't change it, and we feel if we acknowledge that privilege, we're taking care of it. But age almost feels like we're getting away with something. Like it's more of sneaky thing?

[@marcoklaue]

Would have been an interesting follow-up question to ask if she'd be willing to give up her whiteness -- to go through it again as a Black person. I doubt it.

[@sierrabaird7620]

They don't want to change the system because it feels like a psychological threat to not know where they stand in the pack. The thing that is highlighted here, and what we would all benefit to identify in ourselves, is psychological immaturity. When we are more developed psychologically we don't need to get our strength from feeling superior to others. What they are doing is human nature, but we can grow ourselves up so that we can make space for others while also valuing our own contributions.

[@sierrabaird7620]

This is the rock you need to look under...

[@bevboersen5778]

Thank you Malcolm, brought a tear to my eye. Fairness….to cynicism, what do we value?

[@coquitlamfalcons3976]

Fascinating. Is there any research on admission/enrollment data of kids getting into the prestigious colleges to see if the iron rule applies to college admission too?

[@pagesculptor]

I skipped Kindergarten and graduated from college early, even after taking some time off to start a family. I'm an October baby, and everything Malcolm brings up is pretty much my educational/athletic experience. In K-12, I was always in trouble for being less mature, never chosen for any advanced activity or program (like my March child), and made to feel quite dumb in everything except English (I'm now a writer). In college, many professors straight-up told me I would probably fail their class because I was younger, and when I passed, they didn't hesitate to express their surprise. Even after I was a longstanding professional, one professor told me to my face that she was impressed that I actually did well in my career because she didn't expect much from me. Funny because all my other journalist peers from my college years have burned out, faded away, or moved on to other careers. My children have decided not to have kids. But I guess if they change their mind, I'll tell them to get pregnant in June or July.

[@crypto_peng]

Thanks for these great great great content!!!!

[@jennyohara607]

Excellent analysis, and sad at the same time. I think those who talk about "gaming" or "re-gaming" are missing the basic point. Accounting for maturity removes the opportunity to game or re-game. It's sad that the seniors in this experiment were so unwilling - or unable - to see how they had benefited from age-related advantage, and wanted to deny the advantage not just to their peers but to future generations as well.

[@lindascanlan6317]

Cynical wouldn't you say?

[@TennisOnion]

I had this age advantage also and was moved ahead in many classes to study with grade higher children, but I still did really well so I think its ok to make adjustments. It won't handicap you to have more expected of you - in fact it motivated me to work even harder.

[@ruffy0001]

This is so interesting. The students reluctance to change the system that favours them is very much a reflection of our society, where those that get favoured by the system get to more powerful positions and then from those positions refraint to change the system that favoured them in the first place. It puts it all in perspective

[@Genya08]

Thank you🙏

[@charlesrivers9868]

This was thought provoking and entertaining. Really well done! Very glad I listened as it put a lot right for me. While we never adjusted anything for our kids' schools and sports based on their birth dates (now known as the practice of White Shirting in Florida), I do have to admit my inner voice has quoted Outliers a lot during times of frustration. We have emphasized to our children that they need to be the best they can be and have fun. It seems to be working out well despite what the data on birthdates has shown.

[@howardgstrecke]

As always, no one gives up their privilege willingly. The lesson? Life ain't fair.

[@RobespierreRobRoy]

I like the coordinated subtitles, big and bold.

[@tsebregnis5422]

Incredible insight!

[@GregD4502]

For context, I'm 68 and was a late August baby, and I often felt that I was behind for reasons I couldn't understand; so I am completely sympathetic to the principal point presented here. That said, I shared the Penn students' skepticism vis a vis putting their fate in the hands of an "algorithm." It feels ripe for gaming, or for just plain getting it wrong. The Penn students came off poorly here because their discomfort was interpreted as cynicism, however I wonder if their responses would have been different if the solution presented in the question to them was the one involving testing based on a person's actual birthday -- as was said earlier in the podcast: test January kids in January, February kids in February, etc.. I suspect that if that was the potential solution posited to the students their reactions may have been far less negative. Using an algorithm to provide helpful information in an informal way is one thing, but I agree with the students that there's something fundamentally disquiting about having life changing test scores handicapped and altered by an algorithim.

[@nasirfazal5440]

I attended a thirdrate public school,in Lahore Pakistan ,never visited another country till l was 24 years old. Never got drunk in all my life.Prof.Dr.Nasir Fazal gold medalist Cambridge USA.

[@MaitriNancyLivingCoCreatively]

Malcolm while I have little time to read. I love revisionist in your title and in my college a lot online many used online data, ethically. Educators I vant remember the marxist who said ediction is theatre. You are brilliant. But the world has already world renowned. I am passionate for peer to peer learning.

[@mremington8]

I really like that he reads his own books

[@patricedeavila4771]

.. they don't want the playing field leveled, is what it sounds like by the floundering of their weak excuses for why they don't like it. As a "gifted" kid who is old now, their entire identity is wrapped up in being better/smarter, your asking them to not be so gifted and they are naturally hating that idea. They haven't learned that lifting others up only increases your shine.

[@willmpet]

Thank goodness I made it through! I was born in late October! I was so much younger than the other people in my class!

[@skyzfada]

Loved this book read it back to back

[@mimichapman6210]

As a person who physically matured very late and who also had an end of October birthday I can only say that I wish these students who will be in positions of power reevaluate their position. My schooling was very difficult.

[@Hot_n_Spicy101]

Social classes and birth-dates - so much information in this comparison

[@markkirschbaum7328]

Well, this explains everything to me. I was the youngest kid in my class in 1st grade and was almost kept back a grade by my parents except for principal that talked them out of it. I was the youngest kid in high school as a freshman, and although physically talented, never got a chance to play varsity sports. I finally caught up academically senior year. Wow!

[@benherr9130]

This really reminds me of the response when proposing ranked choice voting, approval voting, or other alternative voting methods. The response, almost universally, is to point out possible ways in which RCV or Approval can go wrong, or how it might be gamed. All the while ignoring the bountiful prevelance of problems and frequency that First Past the Poll/single voting goes wrong. I think that you are right, we game the things we've given up on. But also, we don't notice gaming that is accepted/common place, we only tend to notice/fear new kinds of gaming of systems. Side-note: An RH episode on single-voting and how it impacts who we conclusively see as the "winner" of an election, when in reality, simply changing how votes were counted would have completely changed history, would be amazing!

[@Jopasd]

27:25 Gladwell absolutely nails this guy to the wall on his Where-will-it-end Fallacy. As Gladwell gently points out, we go as far as needed! It ends at the end! If you can still think of ways to make it more fair, you're not at the end yet. And if you can't, then you still set up a review body to double check into the indefinite future in case something new comes up. I feel for Gladwell dealing with these clever morons 🙄🤦‍♂️

[@Bladesong2309]

My birth month is September, and I am 25, throughout my life people around me always considered me as slower, clumsier, and less smart than the majority and now I know why. It is so scary that such a simple concept like this could snowball someone's life, this society only give opportunities to the best of the best while people in the middle or last will forever bear the idea in their mind that they are somehow no good comparing to others while that is not the case.

[@kf013109]

This same principle can be applied to the other spectrum of success. Understanding better behavioral patterns that is evident in the criminal justice system. Also look into how it maybe applied in generational relations and simplify the complex patterns.

[@krism793]

I have found this podcast late, so likely no one will hear this. However, this episode reminded me of when I took typing in high school, and also read an article about how the QWERTY keyboard was designed to keep the old fashion typewriters from tangling by slowing the speed that someone types. I lamented learning a system that would forever hobble me, and when I discussed it changing to a more efficient keyboard , there was no enthusiasm to relearn a system that would make them more efficient because of the status quo..

[@fatfredthe28th]

Yes, the "this is how we've always done it" crowd. And people generally don't give a shit about changing the system for someone else when it's currently working for them.

[@godbluffvdgg]

I, recently bought your three book collection *hardbound-I am in the middle of Outliers. I read The Tipping Point years ago, a couple times. I really enjoyed "Blink...:) It Helped me with my football bets in week two ( I won on a 4 team parlay) ...I didn't overthink my choices...:)... Your writing voice is very interesting, you present your position in a style that lacks ego...After reading 2.5 of your books, I'd think you see a lot of yourself in many of the attributes of your examples... A great book suggesting; "Tweeners"...Those born shortly before great events and sort of missed the bus. Take you for an example; Your great works would have been the bell of the ball in the 60's early 70's...Compared to Fear of Flying and other dreck like that. Yet, we Tweeners persevere and succeed...(Born 1960) ...Good health to you and yours.

[@emilianojr.dumalaog7052]

Sometimes it is harder to accept a new perspective or a new way of thinking than to what we had gotten used to. Learning and education should teach us to challenge old stereotype, to explore new knowldge and to be critical thinkers..

[@donaldjmccann]

In 1959 I moved from the UK to Canada. Because I was born in December and not quite 7 when I arrived, I was put into grade 2. My father had already taught me logarithms and the last book I read in England was Robin Hood; I cried when Robin died. In Canada I was forced to read ''Dick and Jane'' books and learn addition and subtraction. I never did my work and busied myself with daydreaming until I was in Grade 5. Eventually, the education system caught up to where I was when I arrived in Canada, and I began to like going to school again.

[@lavernegray4606]

The school systems used to account for age years ago, at least in Chicago. So they had both January and September start dates. A relative born in February was in the 8th grade in the early sixties when they changed to September only start and graduated from HS at 17 in 1968. That relative is 72 years old now.

[@TheDylls]

Is there somewhere I can access the questionnaire list? like in a published paper somewhere? thanks!

[@cherylcarlson3315]

30 yrs ago tried to convince school that prematurity did so matter in physical prowess but didn't have the data, gave up and bought 3rd set of training wheels and researched home schooling

[@luv2charlie]

It is odd that we have babies born 365 days per year, yet we only have 1 start date of school! For $$ we don't have staggered starts, but it seems it would be more efficient and cost effective to stagger, at least elementary and high school, start dates!! Technically you could start college twice per annum if you start at a community college, because at least in California you can begin any semester, even summer (but it's high volume learning) but I don't recommend it!

[@naftalibendavid]

Life is not fair, but wow!

[@karinaplecker120]

What if, instead of an algorithm to adjust scores, we adjust the system. Say we start kids in quarterly blocks. If a child turns 5 in Jan, Feb, or March, they begin school (Kindergarten) on April 1. If they turn 5 in April, May, or June, they start on July 1, and so on for each quarter. that way the age gap in any given quarter of Kindergarten is 3 months instead of 12. It wouldn't account for outliers in size or maturity, but it would be a start.

[@willmpet]

Some time in my elementary school time I assume I was given an IQ test. Though I was young born in late October, I was tracked with the brightest students. So, though my grades were only average (B GPA) but I finally got an MBA in the long run. I am proud of having a 97th Percentile on my GMAT.

[@brimendis]

I think retention could improve by reducing the silence between 'chapters'

[@kambrose1549]

Crazy! The world could have gazillions more successful people. It's not just competition it's contribution guys!

[@laurabrown6522]

Human intelligence is not a limited resource - education is our greatest strength & skill. We have so much potential.

[@rubes8065]

Malcolm, I’m as baffled as you and your team must be on why your podcast hasn’t yet found the following it deserves. I believe and hope it will. Clearly you and your team have put an incredible amount of time, research, and effort into each show. I appreciate the hard work greatly but it bothers me for some reason that more people aren’t yet watching. I can’t get my mind around it. But I keep thinking. I wonder about a few things, but maybe most of all, I wonder about the crossover between the format of books compared to podcasts. In fact, I taught reading and writing in the university, and I study closely essayistic writing and thinking, going all the way back to Montaigne, all the way up to what you’re doing. I mean, what you’re doing is almost too high level for what listeners of podcasts on youtube are looking for. It seems, that KZbin channels are too often underproduced from a writing standpoint and overproduced in every other way. Your channel presents the opposite, which is why I like it so much: the reader isn’t hooked in by the visuals, they are hooked in by your lines of thinking and how they connect so elegantly. The connections between your lines of thinking, layered and complex, have a sort of perfectly delayed convergence, in my mind (I’ll never forget listening to your entire audiobook “Talking to Strangers” as I traveled thought a lonely Nevada desert-scape; the openness of your thinking mirroring the landscape). It’s almost as if you leave your thesis (theses really) until just the right time. I have a feeling though, that while this gives me and many others great pleasure, it may cause the opposite effect for most audiences. Ironic how what makes you so special cannot be appreciated by a larger audience, at least not yet. I wonder whether you will have to revise even more your essayistic style and thinking around the podcast medium. How can you take what makes you special, and bring it to this format? Whatever the case, I’m listening intently. Revisionist History, I think, is my favorite podcast. I’m excited for what is to come. This is a terribly long comment. I’m sorry. But you are so very appreciated. I share a passion for all the topics you discuss. Never stop doing what you do, Malcolm. Thank you

[@laurenedson7625]

Probably more simple. I found it randomly looking up Malcolm on KZbin after reading his recent book. I am surprised it wouldn’t show up in my algorithm bc I’ve avidly watched his podcasts!

[@MikeSadlerAU]

As a Jan 25 kid, no wonder I did well. But I found it frustrating trying to explain complex ('kid-ley' complex) things to my peers and get buy-in, which would have been great to understand. So even the 'older' kids would benefit from a departure from the one-size-fits-all system as it now stands... and I *may* have got the additional help I needed in some domains where it was simply assumed I'd thrive because 'he does everything else well, he'll be fine'. I also just realised that my single-sex high school *may* have been difficult may have been so difficult because I was a more emotionally mature kid (boy) than my peers... very few of which were had birthdays before Easter anyway?

[@rogersam1294]

In the 80's, the knowledge in my family was the inverse. I was put into school too early because they thought I was talented and smart so I was but in too early thinking I would thrive.

[@politicus56]

Bravo! The Penn students worry about the algorithm being "gamed", but have no problem with the already "gamed" system running the show now? The hypocrisy is so transparent it's frightening. As a child of privilege, born in May, in my late 60s now, I know I started life on the 99 yard line and many people...many people, don't even have any way to get to the stadium let alone play on a level playing field. Many people don't even know there's a stadium to play in level or otherwise. This video and the students' reaction to the "experiment" belie the idea that we have really made significant progress over the medieval idea of the "divine right of kings". All one needs to do is listen to how many in a position of privilige use phrases like "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and "I worked harder and smarter". The system is rigged. We know it. The evidence and the science are there. As a society we simply choose to ignore it while rationalizing our reasons for sustaining the status quo.Those with privilege and power don't want it to change. After all it's working very well for them...for us, if I'm honest. Sadly we all know what happens if we say "let them eat cake" long enough......

[@stevejawbs]

interesting cause i read the book and got the feeling that i mightve had a lot more opportunities and "better" life if only a few things were different and i "deserved" more but they probably read this and feel like they dont deserve what they have but neither are really true in the big picture of life

[@MnMcancook]

Privelage, it is difficult to agree to give something up that many feel they were born to have, and in many cases were just that...born into it. The systems we have in place normalize this behavior, so it is that much harder to shed. Love the experiment and the story, and would like to add that i myself was born in Septmber of the year i was supposed to start Kindergarten (turned 5 a week after school started, my father had to push for me to be admitted early), and made it easily into advanced and gifted classes, and even was able to outshine the "elite" students on standardized tests. Guess I would have been a zero in your experiment.

[@anonymous-wi1pw]

27:10 find the paper

[@pequodexpress]

If schools have a Sept. 1st cutoff, wouldn't kids turning of age between Sept. 2nd and Sept. 30th have the greatest advantage, as they would regularly be the oldest in their cohort?

[@bobcornwell403]

I read your book with great interest. But I am more skeptical than ever about the possibility of a fair meritocracy. I think that in a more ideal situation, we would rank prospectives in just plain levels of achievement, and create maybe three rank, based on achievement level ranges. Once these ranks were filled with all available prospectives, several would be chosen from each rank by lottery. And every one of them would be informed of this method. So, everyone who made it would know that dumb luck had at least something to do with their success. This is what I find missing in this discussion, the luck factor.

[@James-cz5hf]

People always do what they have to and what they can get away with.

[@rogersam1294]

The reason it's not coordinated by the date of their lifespan because, on the individual school level, there needs to be more staff to administer the data from the database to action behavior. Could you add to this coordination with parents? For example, I teach in Southern California, with a large Hispanic population. In the fourth quarter, many students from that demographic leave school for North and Central American countries (not so much South America). They visit relatives, go to lots of funerals (it's always a dead grandparent), or have plastic surgery and dip out of the school year early to heal over the summer before college begins. Teachers would have to track down students outside the country. The schools must report data but would get a type of "ding" if they have too many missing student scores. As teachers, we need to be given more resources. Without good-faith cooperation from parents, having a fixed weekly time to get some data makes sense. Because no data isn't helpful either. Maybe more parents could get involved and help raise their own children!

[@yeti2352]

I would have chosen the tollbooth over the architect option.

[@bettydean4149]

I don't think the kids realize the importance of the algorithm, they just thought that by applying the algorithm something will be taken away from them, which is not necessarily true.

[@johnmichaelcule8423]

The reason we don't test kids at the same age is that you'd have to reorganise the teaching profession and maybe the schools kids go to as well. I don't think a teacher exists who could teach a class of thirty children (which a small class in many schools) a topic split into (say) four streams, one for each of the four quarters of the year. So you would need more teachers. Or maybe more, smaller schools. And I'd really support more teachers and more smaller schools but I don't see you getting the money for them. (I'm an August birthday and what is more my parents moved me up a year from the class I started in because they thought it would be good for me. Maybe it was, I dunno.)

[@Edo9River]

Malcolm, Malcolm, I was always labled a slow learner, and I was Always in the bottom quarter of my class 😮. Always. However I came up with on, almost clear thought, in elementary school. That now 65 years later in another continent, is essentially the same as this storyline in Outliers. That grossly immature idea has at last been put to rest in peace, after wandering through times and places not knowing, because, after all, I was in the bottom quartile.😂

[@laurajroot]

I get it and this makes total sense especially as it applies to hockey and other sports. It's more physical. That said, if an older student and a younger student are in the same class all year, learning the same material, why would the older one score higher? Are their learning skills better? I get that they've been in the world longer, but they haven't been in the same English/Math/Science class longer.

[@Old_Jack_Ketch]

The older kid’s brain has had 12 months longer to grow and develop. Same as a physical skill, if you take an illiterate seven year old and an illiterate eight year old and teach them reading and writing from scratch, the eight year old is likely to pick it up faster.

[@laurajroot]

@@Old_Jack_Ketch Makes sense and kind of what I was thinking.

[@leonardwalls870]

Where does M.G. finish in this stu?

[@anon-soso-anon]

So when do we end the age correction factor? Let's say two students graduate from college and go to work. They both have the same adjusted grade but one student scores lower on every test. Do we tell the employer to pay them the same? Maybe a better example is with an Olympic sprinter. Do we age adjust race times? Why is age the only adjustment factor? IQ is highly correlated to test scores. These scores should be docked to account for this privilege. What about children from single family homes? Let's give them a bump in score. I see a lot of comments about how selfish these very young adults are being but you would be pretty sceptical if someone came in and told you they were changing the rules too. If you think hard enough you can probably think about unearned privileges you don't want to give up. I can and I'm fine with it.

[@raistarithon]

i clicked on the link to the transcript and was redirected here. where's the transcript?

[@PushkinPods]

Transcript here! - share.descript.com/view/VDS7PW2XdA1

[@raistarithon]

@@PushkinPods excellent. thanks. I see you also updated the link on the website :)

[@jakejacobs4463]

Dear Mr Gladwell, Back when I was in School, there was a kid in the grade below me that was born the same day as I was…. I had higher SAT scores by 300 points, but he made Mational Honor Society

[@charmerci]

And this shows clearly why the world is going to stay F'd up. Those with privilege and advantages simply won't give it up.

[@James-cz5hf]

So you've come to the conclusion that being a typical human in a typical human system indicates something is "broken" and needs to be fixed?

[@freekick129]

I was not expecting such a selfish response from the students. Glaring lack of empathy when standing in the face of their own privilege. Afraid the new system might be “gamed” when they were just shown to have benefited from the current “gaming” of the system.

[@anon-soso-anon]

I don't think it counts as gaming the system when they were unaware of their advantage and none of them deliberately acted in a way to take advantage of the system.

[@WNH3]

His point about "regaming" is valid. Introducing a "fix" is akin to how we pass a new law, which has unintended consequences & effects new strategies to circumvent the intention of said law. A better mousetrap can lead to smarter mice...

[@lukehoward334]

And yet, should we abandon any attempt to improve the system simply because it doesn’t completely fix the system? “This remedy only solves part of the problem” is a pretty lame excuse for maintaining the status quo.

[@osmanali7865]

Age is just a number, effort is the key

[@ttayanlade]

Permit me to rephrase. Age is just a number after high school (or a certain statistically determined number)

[@sharonpolome3033]

It wasn't BARNSLEY who made the discovery -- it was not HIS discovery, it was his WIFE who made the shrewd observation. . Barnsley would probably never have noticed it; mothers would be more likely to notice this phenomenon because they are the ones mentally comparing the performance of their child to neighbor's seemingly smarter child -- "Ah yes, but THAT brat was born in January but my Jimmy's birthday is in September!" Actually, I made the same "where born in the year" observation when I was in 8th grade, in 1960-61, though not about athletics -- just about classroom performance. As it happened, just by chance, the two youngest 8th graders were the two best students, with their test scores falling in the highest stanines -- the oldest 8th graders in THAT class were, without exception, very much poorer students. Mine was a working class neighborhood in Phoenix. . Perhaps things are different in the upper MC schools in the Eastern U.S., longer established, with more resources than were available to us. It would seem to me that the earlier children start learning to read (for instance) -- the better their academic test scores. I don't understand how delaying entry into school for a supposed academic advantage -- would make ANY sense at all. As for athletic performance, so what......everyone needs to know how to read (etc.) but comparatively few of us yearn to find ourselves on professional sports teams. But I speak for myself.

[@bravelizard494]

I’ve seen that too. A lot of factors play into that like socioeconomic background, parental involvement in their education, racism, and personal autonomy. Some kids don’t want to work with the teachers. Doesn’t matter how old you are. If this is true, you will be set back.

[@cmcain6186]

This episode was somewhat disheartening. Makes me re-think what might be socially possible. If folks are unwilling to give up this random advantange, what makes us think anyone (in the U.S.) would give up a greater advantage?

[@AnhTuPhucDerrickHoangCanada]

it's a chicken, like a big fern. they can't do it. along side the books of Atwood and rushie, it's like the codec gigas: the answer.

[@AnhTuPhucDerrickHoangCanada]

I did 9000 hrs in 3 years once, 2 years in engineering and 3 in economics, that's 9000 in 3

[@kevinpoole6122]

Nothing so sacred as *status quo*.

[@davidwilkie9551]

Another "Just So" story?

[@TheRealCeeJai]

That this only has 21k views and 500-some upvotes after 3 months is borderline criminal - and as much an indictment of the average person's curiosity as anything I've ever seen.

[@tah3099]

Matteo is the reason we should implement this system. He is not very bright for such privileged group.

[@natenicholes4659]

The hypothesis that should be tested with the college students is, when did their age differences arise? Were they up to two years older than their classmates when they entered college (so their admission was a function of their age). Or does their age range reflect additional years spent in college trying different majors or doing study abroad or gap years? Also, to fully prove the point here, you would need to show that the comparative numbers were different at a different institution. I love Malcolm gladwell’s work, but there are some statistical holes in this analysis.

[@thebeebyboys1751]

Malcom, I held my kids back, I dont care about the arms race.

[@ConanDuke]

This is SO NPR. 5 minutes of actual information stretched into a 35 minute broadcast, complete with gratuitous music and painfully long pauses. Cliff Notes?

[@the_wrong_folder]

I worry about America’s future…this is supposed to be the best and brightest

[@rogerpatry5167]

I disagree. I do find fault in these students’ perspective. They are a group of selfish kids of privilege. They represent weak character traits that detract from our society, not improve. Their success is partly the result of holding others back. They are delusional in taking pride in their accomplishment. While some of their success comes from their own efforts, this experiment shows that it was also delivered by randomness, and a randomness that could be corrected and made more just. And the saddest part of all, they will go into the world, with their selfishness and live among us, metering out that unfairness in their every day lives, and trying to instill those same bad characteristics in their future families. As a Canadian in the US, I have observed this selfishness in this society. I dared hope that educational enlightenment like this experiment would counteract some of these societal norms. But out of 75 young adults, not one was interested in exploring this injustice. Really sad. If my kid was in this school, and behaved this way, I would: 1. Let them know how ashamed I am of them 2. Feel I failed as a parent, and that at 21/22, it might be too late to make change 3. Spend whatever equity I had left as a parent trying to rid my kid of this selfishness, which at Wharton may be based on valuing the wrong things in life 4. Immediately withdraw financial support

[@coquitlamfalcons3976]

Note that the kids are in Walton BBA; they are there to get ready for power and wealth They are not even in the MBA program in which most students have at least a few years of work experience to gain some real life perspectives

[@sierrabaird7620]

I hear you. But I don't think it's a moral issue and that these are just selfish people. We have natural desire to dominate and be seen as strong (which comes out in this example). But as we grow psychologically we feel less threatened by the success of others. This is just a common case of psychological immaturity. And I agree that a stronger show of character would be to push on this weak area for the benefit of everyone.

[@Fanaro]

Lol, these idiots came up with gamification arguments but they were the result of gaming the system in the first place.

[@markknopflerisnot]

Interesting and very cleverly presented but the outcome was neither surprising nor ever in doubt...it might not be human nature but it is predictably selfish, fearful and exclusive

[@mariasison3003]

no one in the hollowed halls of ivy league, big businesses or any angle of privilege imaginable would be willing to give it up for the better of society