Outsmart Your Camera With ZONE SYSTEM (Photo Basics: Part III)

[@forestchaput]

I know it's a bit late! Hopefully you all enjoy though 👍

[@shaunireland5501]

better late then never thanks so much 🙏🏿 🙂

[@danielsahagun4367]

Sir: You made my Day. Thank you very much

[@joshsimpson1739]

I personally feel like the church was overexposed, but would it be easier, better to edit?

[@dishboy14]

Posting from 2024, this video was great!! :)

[@FairfieldFogey]

Only today did I discover this video. You have answered my bewilderment as to how to adapt the Zone System to digital photography. I am SO excited to now go out & try some Black & White shots. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction to try all the things you suggest. I am off to watch your other two videos in this series. I am sorry to hear you are no longer doing videos, but wish you well in your next endeavour.

[@paulweber3339]

I have an Asociates degree in Photography. Great teachers but I sure wish you were one of my instructors at that time.

[@forestchaput]

Wow, thank you!

[@parsleylion6313]

It's frustrating that so many tutorials never explain certain things and assume that everyone either knows or will just accept without question. 18% grey has confused me for years, I've asked in camera shops and photography groups and No One has ever said that 18% grey is actually half way between white and black. You just have today, RMSP, thankyou very much! In my mind I'd always supposed that half way was going to be 50% grey (obviously!), so why on earth did metering systems choose 18% ? Why did they pick that figure? And no-one ever told me! 18% IS half way!! This has just changed my life! Thankyou!

[@myblueandme]

you still are confused. 18% grey is not half way between white and black. It comes from Kodak and its anything that is nuetral..

[@f.l.o.y.d_p.e.p.p.e.r]

Actually, 18% is the amount of light that is being reflected off an object that will look half way between black and white to us

[@vimalneha]

Very useful information !

[@kapurar]

Great tutorial on the zone system. The best on KZbin.

[@forestchaput]

Wow, thanks!

[@paulbonge6617]

Bravo, really well done! I started 50 years ago with a Graflex 3-1/4 x 4-1/4 and a Weston II light meter with the Zone System ring on it and lessons in it's use by my father. A whole lot has been internalized over the years, and since switching to digital, which has presented a few new learning experiences, I've relied on a lot of internalized knowledge and learned a lot more! All in all, you perhaps have done the most commendable job of presenting the Zone System to a new audience in a concise and clear manner which makes sense, that I have come across in a LONG time. I always preferred Minor White's (a friend of my father's) simplified version of ZS to Ansel's more complicated and technical version. In the digital age, this explanation of yours reminds me of how Minor once explained it to me in my very early days of learning about photography.

[@forestchaput]

Thank you so much!

[@TeddyCavachon]

Most photographers don’t understand what the 18% meter calibration was based on or that it changed to 12% when film speed measurement changed from ASA (American Standard) to ISO (International Standard). 18% was based on the response of B&W film which was Orthochomatic when the Weston Meter Adams used was invented. The point was selected by measuring the average reflectance of typically composed outdoor scene on a clear sunny day (1/3 sky / 2/3 forground) and picking the % that exposed the darkest shadows with density on the negative. Based on that 18% standard if one meters off an 18% gray card instead of the scene you should get enough exposure in the shadows of any scene to prevent loss of shadow detail - a very logical solution to the problem. But in the late 1960s when the ISO standard was established film response had change because it was now Panchomatic and color and it was determined 12% was the better calibration point to ensure sufficient shadow rendering on negative film. The gray card now need to be 12% to meter off it correctly. So why does Kodak still sell 18% cards? I was a lab technician at National Geographic in the 1970s and the story I got from Kodak tech reps was that Ansel Adams on learning of the change went to Kodak HQ and lobbied the executives to keep the Kodak card 18% because he had based the Zone System around Zone V = 18%. I started using Adams system in 1971 before going to work at NGS from the 1968 edition of his books. Back then there were only Zone 0 -9 because Adams had divided the tonal scale OF THE SCENE into ten steps black to white OBJECTS but neglected to assign a Zone to SPECULAR REFLECTIONS which are now designated Zone 10 giving the tonal scale 11 steps. He recognized that mistake in the Forward of the 1968 but didn’t revise the text. In the forward of the 1968 edition Adams also addresses the confusion that Zones = f/stops or EV values. They do not and he suggested mentally substituting “Print Value” when reading “Zone”. Zones are Adams narrative description of how tone and detail looks in scene and print. What one needs to wrap their brain around is BLACK in the scene and on a print are different (DARK GRAY) and the brightest WHITE OBJECT is a scene must be rendered GRAY, reserving the white paper base for SPECULAR HIGHLIGHTS ON WHITE OBJECTS. Relating this to digital if photographing white car the brightest parts of the body need to be exposed in the range of 245-250 and the only 255 value should be the specular reflection of the sun on the white body and chrome - the specular highlights are the clue the brain uses to discern 3D in a 2D reproduction. Artists who draw and paint very quickly realize that. We get most of our clues to 3D shape in 2D photos from the shadows but on white nearly flat objects like a car hood all the clues to 3D shape come from the placement of the specular reflections which is why highlight rendering to preserve them is so important. The highlight warning in the playback of DSLR or live EVF of mirrorless is the easiest and most accurate way to expose. Adjust exposure until smooth Zone 9 white objects (not specular highlight) clip then reduce exposure 1/3 stop and you will never blow out highlights in the RAW file. Then look at the left side of histogram to determine if SENSOR RANGE is able to render the shadows accurately. If not just increasing exposure by two - three stops and using HDR in post processing will result in a full range of detail, but requires shooting on tripod or bean bag. I don’t carry a tripod on vacation I just go buy a small bag of rice to set the camera on for HDR captures.

[@forestchaput]

Love this insight! Thanks for sharing!

[@johnyjsl9219]

Thank you. Working for NG was a dream as a kid, but Asian father pointed me to engineering.

[@TeddyCavachon]

@@johnyjsl9219 It was a really amazing place to work - I operated a process camera that filled an entire room and used 30 x 40 inch film - but there wasn’t much opportunity for advancement, which is why I left for work in printing\.

[@dansr8342]

Again - another SUPERB video. After years of shooting, experimenting, YT videos and thinking I got this photography stuff, along comes RMSP. I took some classes many years ago and was disappointed. I wish RMSP existed then and live close to the school. I am off to view more of RMSP video clips. Thanks for making them available.

[@forestchaput]

Thank you for the support!

[@robertbreining]

Best video I found on the topic so far. I was truly lost in technicalities studying some other sources. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, much appreciated!

[@forestchaput]

Glad it was helpful!

[@farahjo2123]

Thank you! I’m taking a course discussing this and was just not getting it. You summed it up so clearly, I finally understand this concept. Thanks!!!

[@forestchaput]

Great to hear!

[@patricksteinmetz44]

Outstanding video tutorial. Thanks for posting. RMSP provides a good - no, terrific service to KZbinrs.

[@forestchaput]

Haha thank you! Glad you found it helpful!

[@valhala73]

Great video !!! I couldn't find the chart in the description

[@donnapoirier]

You’re a very good teacher and I learn a lot from your videos, thank you.

[@forestchaput]

So nice of you, thanks for watching!

[@PhilippeDekyvereBe]

I was trying to understand the zone system in camera itself, but went through like 8 other videos. This video hits the spot and I immediately understood this. great explanation. My idea is to not spend time in Lightroom (or dark room for film) but to get it right as best as can be at the time the shutter is pressed.

[@liesel.8758]

your content is so useful! I went from knowing nothing about cameras to using manual mode in my paid photoshoots in three months with your content and other resources. I still have tons of room for improvement but it's helped me get some really pretty shots :D

[@forestchaput]

Awesome! We have paid photo classes too if you ever want to take your knowledge even further! rmsp.com

[@tomjodis8670]

Want to thank you for this simple explanation of the Zone System. I have always shot in manual - and with trial and error I was able to get my image the way it looked when I saw it - but I never knew that I was using the Zone System - I was just making the exposure adjustments till what I saw with my eye was what I saw on the back of my camera. This will for sure simplify my capturing images with the better understanding of the zone system and how to correctly set the exposure right from the start - instead of making adjustment after adjustment to get it right.

[@forestchaput]

That's awesome that you figured it out on your own!

[@tomjodis8670]

@@forestchaput Wish I had known at the time what I was figuring out - all I knew was to keep playing with the exposure settings till it looked right in my camera - now I know how to do it faster and simpler. Thanks

[@kylepetersen1915]

This is the best video on exposure out there! I take pictures of my car a lot (it's white) and always wondered why it was so hard to get my photos looking right, I've started to implement thinking about my images and where I wanted the exposure beforehand and the results are so much better

[@larry5018]

This is a great series. A or two questions on meterring. 1. Often folks are told to use Aperture Priority and Evaluative Metering and use Exposure Compensation to adjust the brightness. Am I correct that basically use a "zone" to set the composition to correct the exposure. 2. On my Mirrorless I can set my spot metering to match the spot focus. Are some DSLR's available to do that? 3. Meter and recompose when not in Manual I assume you must set the af/ae setting to lock the exposure before recomposing. BTW I use Olympus M5 iii.

[@alienmoondudes8071]

It’s neat to see the older methods of exposing for photography before digital. Like the sunny 16 method or the zone method

[@forestchaput]

Heck yes!

[@roiloubia4483]

Excellent video..In fact you explained that the 18% gray card is just a reference, you set your own reference using object in the real world, as long as you know by how much it's tonality depart from an 18% gray, the dark green foliage you cited is a good example..Someone can train his eyes to recognize the tonality of very common objects we encounter in the field and place them in the right zone. I am sure you know that there is more into it, I know a short video like this one cannot touch everything, but Bravo👍👍👍

[@forestchaput]

Thank you!

[@kaydee3407]

Os there a link or a book that goes more into it ...

[@richardhartman3179]

I like the way you handle yourself. Keep going.

[@forestchaput]

Thank you. Will do!

[@user-charlieccchong]

Good to see you after years pass the part II. Take care.

[@James_Bond_Fantasy]

omg what I learned in this and the 2nd video is more than what I had learnt hear and there in the past few years. Thank you so much

[@fullabullasailing2361]

This technique has been one of the best you and your Dad ever taught me! And, I’ve found it to be priceless to come back and review. Another awesome tutorial! Thanks! 🤙🏼🤙🏼

[@cyclopspp]

Please create more 🙏 Really Really great!

[@shaunireland5501]

I like this you covered it so well for me curiosity, you answered my questions spot on keep up the great tips I love it !

[@forestchaput]

Glad it was helpful!

[@Richie_]

Very useful video. A great help, thanks.

[@forestchaput]

Glad to hear it!

[@LINDAOZAG]

practice-practice-and then more practice...You are doing a great job!!!! Hopeful you will have another video series. Yesterday I shot in RAW and jpeg, very confusing trying to find the correct photo. Will shoot only in RAW. For your next video I would really like to learn how to file photos and save them. I want to take them off of the computer because they are taking up too much room.

[@KeithMarshall-nd2fs]

Very well explained

[@forestchaput]

Glad it was helpful!

[@GerhardBothaWFF]

I must say I hardly ever look at the meter anymore other than dialling in the aperture and shutter speed and iso to have a starting point. I look at the histogram and how the image looks in the EVF. I just make sure I don’t blow the highlights. We never had tools like that in the past. I photograph birds etc so I usually can’t do anything about the shadows- no chance to take multiple exposures etc. But with the dynamic range you have nowadays it’s no issue usually. And that is with a crop sensor (R7). Larger sensors have even more to work with

[@forestchaput]

Heck yes! Unfortunately (or fortunately), zone system is becoming a thing of the past. It's still a good tool to have in the toolkit, but very soon I feel like it will be completely irrelevant.

[@sarahtieche2299]

You’re an awesome teacher! Thank you for these 🤩

[@forestchaput]

You are so welcome!

[@gyurxi551]

Thanks! Great video! I'm shooting equirectangular panoramas since 2002 as a hobby. I take my 18% grey card to everywhere to pre-set my meter and just shoot. But I have never though that the green grass could be my grey card as well. :) ✌

[@ruedrolet]

Thanks for an interesting concise, simplified view of the zone system as well as encouraging us to get out and practice to internalize these skills! One question: rather than shooting in manual mode, can’t we achieve the same effect by staying in a automatic mode like Av or Tv or P and use exposure compensation?

[@quentinmangel2265]

showing the histogram is also quite useful to understand the metering, isn't it ?

[@ravikanagasabey285]

Aging fantastic presentation 👏 👌

[@forestchaput]

Thank you! Cheers!

[@PracticalIT]

Thanks for the tips, enjoyed the video!

[@forestchaput]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@nilofido411]

Soud advise for beginners, except that it has very little to do with the zone system, actually to achieve the goals of the zone systems in digital you have to do the opposite than analog. with the zone system in analog you expose for the shadows in camera and optimize for the highlights in the developper; in digital you do this by shooting ETTR, exposing for the highlights in camera and optimizing shadows inpostproduction. the technique described is a fancy way of doing sunny 16 and +/- 1-2 stops, it is a great technique, and works brilliantly as long as you can live with the dynamic range of the film or digital sensor.

[@michaelreale2877]

I'm looking for the link to the Zone card, but there doesn't seem to be any where below your presentation. Thanks

[@forestchaput]

Here's a link! rmsp.blob.core.windows.net/images/zone-card.pdf

[@leahfulton3213]

Yes

[@forestchaput]

Yes!

[@dee9692]

A nicely simplified (but not overly-simplified) version of the zone system which was appropriately presented. However, I was looking forward to picking up the colour/zone equivalence chart in the links but only found your PDF guide to the Zone System (e-book) with descriptions rather than the colour swatches card that you seemed to signify in your talk as the thing available. Pity! Would have been very handy since converting the range of colours/tonal values to zones (apart from the most commonly encountered ones such as green grass or a concrete footpath) is probably one of the most difficult things to come to grips with when getting experience using the zone system.

[@forestchaput]

rmsp.blob.core.windows.net/images/zone-card.pdf

[@forestchaput]

There you are! Sorry about that!

[@tebnuhotep217]

Great Video Bro

[@angelfallen3211]

is there a part 4?

[@tititatiti]

Hi there! Thanks for the informaive video! Quick question: If you turned up your meter 2 stops to the right wouldn't it blow the sky (highlights) of the photo? Thanks in advance for your input, best of luck with your work!

[@forestchaput]

Good question, if you want the sky not blown out then you would meter off the sky instead. You can't always get everything properly exposed, so you have to pick and choose what you want properly exposed.

[@ageprevention]

Great Vid thanks :)

[@forestchaput]

No problem!

[@paulweber3339]

At 2:17 of your video you say you want two stops darker however the arrow on the far left is pointing to THREE stops darker. I'm confused.

[@forestchaput]

For that, count the arrows in the graphic showing that it is two stops, not the colors :) I hope that makes sense

[@globalfunseeker6733]

I've always found that the easiest and fastest way to determine a proper exposure manually is to spot meter off the lightest portion of the image and decide how you want to expose for it. I find it much more difficult trying to identify a medium or dark tone.

[@forestchaput]

Yep, that's a great technique!

[@roiloubia4483]

I think you got it. You can choose any tonality as a reference, as long as you know how much it depart from a medium tone, or by how much stops you need to compensate to get it rendered the way you want. Example: you meter a white object with detail, like a white towel, if you shoot at the Metered values, the towel will be rendered gray (18% gray as your gray card). But you know that the white with details is 2 stops lighter than 18% gray, you should modify the Metered values by opening by 2 stops (placing the white towel with details in zone VII). Same thing with a black towell with details,, But in this case you change the Metered values by stopping down (closing down) by 2 stops. You can open by 2 stops by changing the aperture or the Sutter speed: Example: meter readings on the white towel is 1/125 sec @ F8. Need to open by 2 stops. Final exposure would be 1/125 sec @ F4, or 1/30 sec @ F8, or 1/60 sec at F5.6 (open 1 stop the Aperture, and open 1stop the shutter speed). It's the other around if you shoot a black towel.. I think you got the principle.. In this example, detail = texture, though not exactly the same thing. But a good start.. With some experience and experiments you can refine the order of compensation. Once you get the correct exposure, after metering a tonality and applying the compensation, it is not over yet. You just got the correct exposure for your film ((ISO). That combination of Aperture and shutter speed,, represent only the correct amount of light needed to get a proper negative. Now you can alter this exposure by changing this combination. Let's say you need a big depth of field, you choose a small aperture, F16, (you closed down 4 stpos, from F4 to F16 then you open by 4 stops the shutter speed, to1/8 sec to maintain that correct exposure. Then at this shutter speed you need a tripod..,bottom line, you can change that determined correct exposure for an esthetic effect..

[@waynestoneman]

In the provided photograph, the church is properly exposed, but the sky is overexposed. Would it not be preferable to have a shot with a blue sky?

[@forestchaput]

You could! But there is too much dynamic range in the scene so you need to choose what's most important and I chose the church.

[@jameshoy380]

In a high contrast scene; is there a way to compress the dynamic range in camera so that you don't lose shadow/highlight detail if you purposely over or underexpose a scene?

[@RickLincoln]

With only the camera, and without bracketing and blending, I don't think so. There is confusion about a camera's dynamic range measured in stops and the number of stops between clipping points...the points where you begin to loose detail in the darkest part of the image and the brightest. For example, DxOMark says that my Canon R5 has a dynamic range of 14.6 stops. But I only have 4.5 stops between clipping points. 2.1 stops from mid tone to black and 2.4 stops between mid tone and white. This has been measured using a Sekonic L-858 U and Sekonic Data Transfer Software and those measurements, while slightly conservative for dark tones, hold true in use. So, if I'm shooting a high contrast scene with let's say a 5.8 stop dynamic range (Also measurable with the L-858) my camera will not capture it all. I am left with the choice of keeping highlight detail or shadow detail. Can't have 'em both without bracketing/blending. That "no" answer above changes to a possible "yes" if you can use lights to add brightness to the dark areas of your scene. I will sometimes frame a landscape with foliage from above...like leaves on a tree branch. Often, that foliage is the darkest part of the image as it is in silhouette as I shoot the bright landscape in front of it. I'll gently light that foliage with a speedlight thereby decreasing the dynamic range between the brightness of the subject and the darkness of the leaves and giving me detail in an area that would have gone to black. I've also placed lights into the blackness of a building so that the windows become brighter and sometimes I'll put a touch of light on parts of a dark foreground during a sunrise or sunset. And of course balancing the ambient light with flash makes a big difference when shooting outside environmental portraits in harsh light. Unfortunately, one can't light themselves out of high dynamic range scene problems all of the time. Sometimes composition can help. Sometimes you just have to take what you get. It's like what Forest Gump said....

[@kevfrets]

How does this effect or relate to using ETTR?

[@forestchaput]

I would use zone as a starting place and then tweak to ETTR.

[@kevfrets]

@@forestchaput Thank you 🙏. You are excellent! Much appreciated.

[@everillangel5037]

Haha. Jokes on you I take photos in slog 🤣🤣🤣. Jk I predominantly do video and a lot of these photo basics are great lessons. Thank you for the video

[@forestchaput]

Hahaha, you're welcome! One thing to realize though is that log profiles actually require more accurate exposures than non-log!

[@everillangel5037]

@@forestchaput I agree. especially due to how they compress data. Incorrect exposure and its a lost image.

[@EJej-z5g]

I believe the zone system is absolutely irrelevant in modern digital photography. We now have histograms and shadow/highlight clipping warnings, exposure bracketing for uncertainty in challenging conditions, and JPEG previews that, even if slightly clipped, allow us to estimate what can be recovered in RAW and what is truly clipped. While you can divide your scene into 100 or even 1000 zones, ultimately, you'll still aim for ETTR (Expose To The Right) after determining the critical highlights because it offers the best quality approach for digital photography today. In film photography, the zone system was indeed useful with development and printing techniques. However, trying to fit it into digital photography in various ways (as every KZbinr explains it differently as they see fit) no longer makes sense. Examples like showing a black camera sample or a black cooktop and saying, 'Look, it's gray, but it's actually black' - come on, that's not a significant issue. You can always darken it in post-processing; it's not a big deal as long as nothing is clipped.

[@forestchaput]

Thanks for your input!

[@Notmy00000]

🙏🙏🙏🙏👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

[@132indo]

for digital you dont want to expose white at +2 bc it might blow them out and you cant recover in post. its better to underexpose the shadows and keep highlights and adjust the raw file in post. for film you expose for shadows.

[@bettiecsuhta8189]

𝙥𝙧𝙤𝙢𝙤𝙨𝙢

[@0rb0d]

Reasonable advice, but dont call it the Zone System because it's...not.

[@forestchaput]

I would disagree, but okay!

[@davidkachel]

So completely wrong, it is pointless to criticize this silly video.

[@forestchaput]

What?

[@mikereilly4518]

Love your content, but the videos would be much easier to watch if you would stop waving your hand about in view and keep your head still a little more, sorry but it was a nightmare to watch!

[@ichampagnez2204]

u must be fun at parties