Trope Talk: Bathos

[@dicegerry5127]

"Sharing a story you care about is like ripping your heart out and submitting it for peer review." As a writer and an artist, I felt that.

[@Some_Siren]

Same

[@lonestarr1490]

As an artist and a scientist, I felt that twice.

[@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527]

@@lonestarr1490 Also an artist and a scientist (ok well an undergraduate researcher but still) I too felt it.

[@MrInternetHermit]

EVERYONE felt that

[@Maraienna]

As a game master for my friend groups, I also felt that.

[@nightingaleblades5493]

The best highly specific case of the older definition of bathos is encountering the phrase “among us” in any media context

[@battyrae1398]

AMOGUS

[@catherinepoteat]

Not just media! I’m Catholic and Among Us is in prayers and ITS KILLING ME EVERY TIME!

[@100lovenana]

An entire essay can be made about how this game-transformed-into-meme has affected the significance of those words, including "imposter". It is such an internet culture-specific thing that anyone who hasn't had much contact with the internet won't have any idea why people laugh when a character in a movie shouts "Imposter!" or something

[@blackcitadel9]

It has also affected vents

[@killerbug05]

​@@100lovenana jokes on you Mandela catalogue ruined the word imposter for me long before among us did.

[@alecchristiaen4856]

I really like Spider-verse's use of Bathos. Several scenes early on subvert our expectation, or are in some way played out for laughs, but the third act is RIFE with moments that mirror the earlier jokes, but are played completely straight. Especially Miles' leap of faith. Earlier he was too scared to jump and went down the stairs again; he fell next to a building before, an onomatopoeia mockingly chasing him down; the Stan Lee cameo assures him that the cheap suit will fit him eventually (it better, cuz no refunds). Now he's wearing a suit that fits and befits him, wearing web shooters that Aunt May even say fit perfectly, and while he is still nervous to hell and back (hence the shattered glass as he jumps), this time he does go for it. And then when he swings through NY, he launches himself up a building, an onomatopoeia of his cheering following him upwards. It's almost bathos in reverse. First they establish a joke, or deliberately use bathos for a laugh, but later scenes parallel the funny ones, but this time with complete sincerity. I think it's utterly brilliant. I mean...hot take of the century: Spider-verse was good.

[@KeitieKalopsia]

Completely agree! I loved that they did this but didn’t know how to put it in words.

[@krysbrynhildr]

Pretty sure the only thing that makes this take hot at all is that its pitched as a hot take. ;p But yeah, bathos can absolutely be leveraged to enhance a story so long as its a deft hand that knows some amount of moderation. On the other end, "realism" ala the Lord of the Rings films that cuts down on the mythic status of the heroes from the novels (Faramir got done so dirty, but also so did Aragorn by making his thing "running from his destiny" to a lesser degree) is something that can hurt storytelling as well. Zack Snyder's take on the DC Universe for the most part, for example where absolutely nothing can be remotely fun, because that's not what a Good Movie about Exemplary Archetypes that Zack Snyder doesn't actually understand because he doesn't really get what the characters are like when done at their best in the first place. Spider-Verse (the first one at least) is pretty deft at walking that line between serious, sincere, silly, and fun, and all while wrapping it up into an in-universe tone about what it might be like for someone to be forced to step up after being thrust into trying to measure up to the legacy of a beloved superhero due to situations outside their own control.

[@alecchristiaen4856]

@@krysbrynhildr I meant my "hot-take" very much Ironically. Gonna have to agree on the realism bit. A lot of writers simply see realism as "put a washed out filter over the camera and we're gonna be awful to each other." Depending on the story, realism can be a boon. The Incredibles was deliberately made with humanizing the supers in mind (like how Mr. Incredible clearly braces for the pain before stopping a train). It can help humanize characters, but sometimes we don't want a character to be human, sometimes they gotta be something more.

[@krysbrynhildr]

@@alecchristiaen4856 Right its just sometimes the characters trying to be more, is part of what makes them feel "human", at least to me, especially where realism is often a stand in for "make everyone and everything look ugly, while calling their morality shades of grey but just making everyone do horrible things all the time with no real explanation of their motivations to do so beyond Humans are naturally scummy violent sex-crazed individuals or whatever". Believable portrayals tend to lie somewhere in the middle of the extremes of what we call idealism and realism.

[@lifewithkat940]

The use of the bathos in the earlier bits and then going on to do it again and play it straight gives the story the opportunity to show off how Miles has grown. Miles just getting to play it straight the first time would make him feel like he's too cool with his new situation and too good at just *being* spiderman.

[@Callie_Cosmo]

“She was like a bad metaphor, either forgotten instantly, or clings onto you for literal decades”

[@tehrealcoralsnek7044]

your pfp has me at a loss for words

[@LincolnChamberlin]

Whats this from?

[@Callie_Cosmo]

@@LincolnChamberlin it’s an old internet joke called loss, I thought contrasting my original semi comedic tone in the comment with white hot rage at someone making a pun would be funny

[@iamnotinvolved1309]

@@Callie_Cosmo You made me lol, don't worry

[@mackenziebeeney3764]

@@Callie_Cosmo I’ve seen a much brighter version I’m opting to call addition, and it’s a birth of a child.

[@bismuth7398]

The problem with Bathos is that, if it's handled badly, it's one of the most obnoxious things ever.

[@flip269]

You're there vibing with the moment, sometimes with tears forming on your eyes, just for the author to take a dunk on you

[@luigiboi4244]

Unfortunately, everyone in this day and age is terrible at it.

[@bismuth7398]

@@flip269 It _can_ be done well. Just look at, well, any James Gunn movie.

[@alearnedman]

I think Red's take that it betrays insecurity is the worst potential outcome of bathos. IMO, self-seriousness has a much higher potential of coming off as obnoxious than most other choices do

[@bismuth7398]

@@alearnedman It's like the old man said: "You can fake being serious, but you can't fake being funny."

[@Oooooof2024]

"... Self-depreciating humor is really only funny to people who are comfortable depreciating you." This quote hit me like a truck. It helping me realize why I keep making self-depreciating jokes all the time and why I should probably stop. I know this probably wasn't the intended goal of the episode but you have really helped me out to think through some stuff.

[@silvermoon2608]

I guess depreciating still kind of works in that context but she actually said deprecating

[@snickerdoodles2551]

I had the same takeaway!

[@ca-ke9493]

Dude Red just obliterated 2013/14 internet humor that I grew up with and now is deeply embedded and parasitic to my soul

[@heysiri3327]

There are two ways to approach joking about yourself: "They're choosing me? Well, get ready for a job fucked up!" vs "They're choosing me? Well of course they are, I'm clearly the most competent person on the face of the earth!" Even if you're being sarcastic in both cases, the second one is easier to bounce off of without being a dick or making a situation awkward.

[@rabanryssel137]

Half of all trope talks are therapy

[@devonrule1412]

I've seen some writers discuss that the big fear of vulnerability driving the rise of bathos isn't fear of the eventual theater/consumer audience reaction, it's the other writers and producers on a project. It's scary to be emotionally vulnerable in a writers room, and feels a lot safer to pitch a joke that breaks the tension.

[@100lovenana]

Are there any sources?? I would like to see interviews or articles from those writers if this is true.

[@9nikola]

@@100lovenana If they're too scared to make an emotional scene that they can disconnect from and excuse themselves by saying "that's probably what the audience wants", I doubt they'd be courageous enough to talk about their own personal experiences with being peer pressured into making cheap jokes.

[@spacebutterfly2873]

ohhhhhhh

[@Mewobiba]

While I'd love to read writers talk about it, as Nana requested, that'd make a lot of sense; The vast majority of viewers (me included) of any given work won't pay much attention to who wrote it. I know when I worked retail that I worried less about how a random customer who'd forget me 5 seconds later thought of me than how my coworkers did, and it seems reasonable that writers' anxiety would work similarly.

[@9nikola]

@@Mewobiba For me, I'm more worried about what my family and friends would think. They aren't necessarily the target audience, nor do they necessarily know what it's like to write creatively, yet they are still likely to check out my writing simply out of curiousity about what I do. Write something about childhood trauma? My parents might make up a connection to their parenting and take it as an attack to deflect. Write about a character with a trait that one of my friends happen to have? They might think the character is inspired by them, and suddenly everything that happens to that character is a direct commentary on my friend. If the character becomes popular, my friend's ego can skyrocket. If the character has a romantic story, my friend might think I'm romantically interested in them. If the character is an antagonist or just has some negative traits, the friend might think I'm passive aggressively trying to tell them something, even though the only thing they actually have in the common with the character is their hair colour or something. Hopefully most writers either have a better community than I do, or theirs are bad enough that they don't care what their community thinks. But for me, and most likely some others, the best option is to either publish anonymously or somehow get through life knowing your most personal stuff is being scoured for ammunition for the next argument.

[@shotgotit_]

"Your Dad, The Goose" is genuinely one of Jolie's greatest line deliveries of her entire career...

[@pinkdaveandchaps3697]

What I love is afterward after she realizes he's being sincere she goes full-on sincere herself about how it must be hard for him

[@lsedge7280]

It's very on-brand for the movie it's in, but also it's some brilliantly placed bathos that doesn't undercut the moment. We can see the humour in it, and other characters can, but for Po it's a fully sincere moment of realisation, and that becomes evident to her character too.

[@skyhideaway]

it gives "that's rough buddy" energy

[@Roycesraphim1]

😊

[@stevenhedge2850]

@@lsedge7280 seems more of a matter of opinon because i feel it does undercut the moment as its another "oh po is a idiot" joke the movies are full of.

[@theeggman7593]

My favourite thing about George Lucas and the original 6 Star Wars movies is the fact they take themselves seriously and that he wasn’t afraid to show his own vulnerability. Moments like “you were my brother Anakin” hit me sincerely because of how sincerely the characters, actors and Lucas were in creating them.

[@BenZ-ui7tu]

But also some of the most classic scenes of Bathos "I love you. I know" "These are not the droids you're looking for" "aren't you a little too short to be a stormtrooper?" etc

[@viperstriker4728]

I agree, we can also see it going wrong too. "I don't like sand". Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I am glad Lucas was willing to take so many risks probably knowing some wouldn't land.

[@LordVader1094]

​@@viperstriker4728The sand line doesn't go wrong. It perfectly shows how awkward Anakin is, as he should be.

[@NelsonStJames]

Well, I'd limit that to the original trilogy. Some of the worst moments for me in the prequel trilogy is what he did with the droids where we'll have this serious moment where characters are fighting for their lives and even dying, and then we'll cut to 3PO and R2 doing a Laurel and Hardy skit, and it takes you completely out of the immersion -- and this happens during several intense scenes. With all the remastered versions we get of the SW films over the years, I'm waiting on one where they cut all that garbage out.

[@thorscape3879]

@@NelsonStJames This happens in A New Hope and Empire. 3PO and R2 talk shit to each other during the prison break and the escape from Bespin while they're inside the conflict. 3PO and R2 are joking during the capture of Leia's ship too.

[@maiaharlap]

"Like the boy who cried wolf, the story that cried 'punchline' will train its audience to always anticipate a joke or a quip." This right here is one of the most apt and concise ways I think you could describe the double-edged sword of bathos.

[@regalvas]

I found it that it is also a matter of execution and effort, I have seen stories where they do it often and are still able to have genuine moments.

[@Broomer52]

An issue that everyone contributes to Modern Marvel movies. They stopped with the sincerity to undercut every moment with a bad joke

[@SpiritOfHugs]

It's a good analogy, but I think it was expressed improperly. They aren't crying "punchline", they are crying "dramatic moment". They are always promising the dramatic moment, and then delivering the punchline. So a better way to express it would be "Like the boy who cried wolf, the story that cried 'drama' will train the audience to believe that cry to be false.", which is the case. If the story cried "punchline", and then delivered something else, we would get something completely different. An example of that would be those stupid animated shows that keep doing long anti-jokes, where you watch a full minute of setup that *sounds* like it should be comedy, but at the end there's no payoff at all except the fact that the frustration is supposed to be funny. Otherwise, solid video, I took a lot of notes, very nice.

[@CaptainvonDore]

​@@SpiritOfHugs actually, she really meant calling out 'punchline', not calling out 'dramatic moment'. At that point she was exactly talking about you gave as an example for calling out 'punchline'.

[@CaptainvonDore]

​@@SpiritOfHugs 10:47 I am timestamping it so you can rewatch it. You can also go a few seconds backwards to understand it better.

[@RmsOceanic]

For the curious, "Narm" is derived from the TV Show Six Feet Under, about a family of undertakers, where the longrunning Chekhov's Gun of the main character's brain aneurism finally goes off and he suffers a stroke while with his lover, with the iconic dialogue of: "My arm's gone numb. Numb arm. Numb. Arm. Narm. Narm. Narm-!" A potential moment of shock, horror and longtime dread finally made manifest undercut by a silly sounding word. Sure wasn't no Hodor.

[@Tigersight0]

Wow, didn't know that. Also... I don't know, 'narm' as a word is kind of funny, but even just reading that dialog, I can pretty easily imagine the scene being absolutely horrifying. Like, the repetition of the same phrase as it becomes more simple and incomprehensible is like getting a look inside the person's brain and faculties being destroyed in realtime.

[@leilasmila]

Any reference to Hodor is still too soon, I don't care how long it's been!

[@mackielunkey2205]

Didn't that show also have what's considered to be one of the best pilots and finales of all time?

[@zoelio999]

​@Tigersight remember it's all about the execution and given the trope is named after that scene, I don't think it went well

[@NukkuiskoHyvinVaiPois]

Also he snorts before falling, and his lover's reaction is very underplayed. Both of these add to make the scene feel akward and funny.

[@FranNyan]

As I just recall the "She doesn't get eaten by the eels at this time." interruption in Princess Bride, where it cuts the action and tension, but not in a way that belittles anything. Having the commentary come from outside the story lets it have the best of both worlds.

[@everentropy]

The interesting thing about that moment is it brings in the sincerity more. It tells you that the boy cares now, that he's invested. There's a story within a story set-up and it pulls out for a moment to let you know that it's good to be invested in these characters, and to trust the story.

[@caihah.1404]

@@everentropy Yeah, the kid was set up as the I guess audience insert? And skeptical about finding the story in any way interesting, and that's the moment he's caught being emotionally invested, though he denies it of course. But I did think that was basically telling the audience that it's not only okay to care, but that they should care.

[@xavierthomas5835]

​@@caihah.1404 If you're going to listen to a story, why waste any amount of your time not investing, ven a little? Having opinions is validated. It's when you disagree wholeheartedly and only take time to listen so you can disagree that it becomes callous hatred.

[@ritzexists2201]

That movie also does this amazing thing of reminding you about the kid and his grandpa probably at the exact moment you’ve forgotten about them, but never in a way that interrupts the tone in a damaging way. The kid’s comments start OUT bathos-y cause he’s pretending he’s too cool to enjoy the fairytale, but over time he becomes the audience surrogate, reacting how we react to the story. It’s great.

[@clarekrmiller]

Yes, I’ve been thinking about The Princess Bride through this whole video! Perfect example.

[@vowgallant4049]

I will defend the "Toss me" Gimli scene. It shows something he is embarrassed about, while also showing that he is able to swallow his pride and do something he considers humiliating if it means saving the day. It also shows that he cares what his friends think about him when he says "Don't tell the elf." And the fact that Aragorn acknowledges this shows his respect for him. It isn't so much that we can't take sincere people seriously, but for me, seeing someone do something silly who is usually serious is just as humanizing as the opposite. I think that is what that Gimli brought to the table.

[@LollipopKnight2]

I think that makes a lot of sense. Less fond of the drinking game, but I think they cut that from the theatrical release. And while the lines Red quoted are utterly beautiful (I'm feeling a little emotional today, and I actually teared up at Gimli's poetic expression of his utter love and awe of the beauty of Helm's Deep), I'm not sure that they would have played well in a theater, when there's so much human drama going on, and both the human drama and this sort of speech need a lot of room to breathe.

[@sambirch5153]

It's not that scene in and of itself. It's that the % of comedy Gimli versus serious Gimli is far, far too high. It leads to undervaluing those moments and his character as a whole

[@algebraizt]

So this is one where it doesn't lessen his character. The humor is in the situation not the character. There's a lot of funny ones that they could keep that don't lessen his character; Gimli not fitting in the heavy chainmail provided by the Rohans is basically exactly the same gag as Gandalf hitting his head on Bilbo's ceiling. The ones that have Gimli as the punchline instead of the situation are the ones that weaken his character and honestly don't need to be there. They've become my least liked parts of the movie as time went on.

[@Imrooniel]

That being said, I'd love if that quote of Gimli that was in the video, was a scene in the movies, it really drives the fact that LotR setting is post-apo (or at least remnants of once greater societies, that lost so much)

[@TheGreatDanish]

Its a moment of Sincere Comedy. I think its the best comedy. Purely character driven comedy. Character comedy is funnier to me because I care about the characters in question. Gimli's toss me moment wouldn't be half as funny if Gimli was an otherwise silly character. No, he's a stone serious man's man who's so manly, his beard has a beard. He's like the rest of the cast. Serious as hell. And then we get to see a bit of him that humanizes him. And its funny!

[@mitkitty]

The other way sincere bathos works for me is like...a character making a dumb joke in a stressful emotional situation and then everyone starts laughing/crying because they genuinely needed that. It becomes a sweet friendship moment

[@emmaballantyne9937]

This! Also I think it kind of shows how when real people are upset, emotional or going through awful situations, humor can be a good coping mechanism to relieve their personal stress

[@al3xand993]

Kinda like how it's been established multiple times that the reason spider-man jokes around so much is to cope with the danger of super hero work

[@jamiel6005]

I think it’s because genuinely sweet people do that when they can sense that people need a little comic relief - it’s a way to connect with people in hard times that actually happens. People don’t do the quips we get in modern action films, it just comes off as unnatural and one-note for every character to have the same shitty sense of humour that the writer does.

[@stevenneiman1554]

Yeah. Or a character making a joke or throwing an affectionate barb out because they know that someone else is stressed out and it'll make them feel better.

[@KakamileRS]

Or when the funny character dies, and characters unintentionally leave a pause for the quip that never comes.

[@jukori]

love a good reverse bathos, when you set up a joke, and all of a sudden it turns into something heartbreakingly real, hitting you right in the feels

[@octodaddy1602]

The ProZD pizza bros anime 😂

[@elliart7432]

Literally any story that lets you fall in love with the silliest most nonsense characters on planet earth, then suddenly puts them in terrible situations and plays it straight is God tier

[@wjzav1971]

I have to think of a scene from Scrubs where Turk has lost his faith after witnessing a terrible night at the hospital and goes through a personal crisis. Carla tries to cheer him up by saying something like "I will make you find your faith in god again. OR I will make you scream his name later" and she says that later part with a seductive chuckle. Turk glares at her and just says "Do you think this is funny?" and Carla makes a face where she realizes that she REALLY has misjudged the situation.

[@aeropteryx900]

@@elliart7432 that's just Adventure Time you're describing

[@NayrAnur]

Reminds me of Disney's Mulan (the animated one) where Shang's unit is deployed and the soldiers were all jovial and stuff, thinking of their lady loves waiting for them back home, only for the light-heartedness is abruptly dropped once they arrive at the mountain village razed by the Huns.

[@bananabanana484]

Bathos can also enhance Emotional Sincerity. With the Spider-Man: into the Spiderverse example, Miles’ comedic failure to make the jump makes the actual jump so much cooler!

[@connormclernon26]

Yeah, if it’s used in that way, and only that way. Otherwise bathos sucks.

[@samrevlej9331]

@@connormclernon26 No it doesn't.

[@connormclernon26]

@@samrevlej9331 Have you watched The Last Jedi? Far too much bathos in that movie.

[@animeotaku307]

Plus, at that time, it was more true to his mindset. He was insecure, scared, and overwhelmed. Of course he would decide “let’s just start with something smaller.”

[@lonestarr1490]

Really good point!

[@shebjess]

I love how often Spiderverse pops up because Spidey is such a quippy character but he's also bleeding with sincerity and hope. Peter Prime in Spiderverse walked that line every second he's on scene. Bathos isn't bad, it's just often mishandled.

[@AkuTenshiiZero]

Spider-Man's quipping works because often we get to hear what he's thinking, and as the audience we know he is actually dead serious and usually scared. His quips are his way of coping and throwing off his enemies, but inside he's formulating a strategy and thinking about how he's going to overcome something that seems impossible to defeat.

[@peggyliepmann5248]

I think another important thing is that none of the SpiderAlternates are just comic relief. Peter B is out of shape and burnt out, but he's still very good at being Spiderman, as shown when breaking into Alchemax. Peni Parker, SpiderNoir, and SpiderHam are weird and goofy looking, but they're still superheroes and can still kick ass. SpiderNoir's fascination with the Rubik's Cube is hilarious, but the dude's an experienced boxer who punches Nazis back home. CMHB, not The Load.

[@noahjester8471]

I liked how in the Lego Indiana Jones games, that one guy who squares up against Indy, spinning his sword around actually is a genuine opponent. Instead of catching lead, Sword Guy blocks the bullets. I actually saw this version first, so when I saw the movie later I was like, "What?!" 🤣

[@rotciv557]

That's a genius rewrite, tbh. If you see the original first then the sword guy being gunned down instantly is already a hilarious subversion which then gets played for further laughs but also for added badassery when you play the Lego game and you actually fight him, whereas when you experience them the other way around the original movie's joke becomes even further magnified by the expectation of there being a real fight there.

[@squigglydickley1851]

There was actually suppose to be a big fight scene then in the movie, Harrison ford was actually sick that day during filming, and then we got what we got

[@rotciv557]

@Squiggly Dickley yeah, he was sick and had diarrhea so he didn't want to film a whole elaborate fight scene agaisnt a swordsman, so he just shot his prop gun and the director loved the joke so much he left it in. The swordsman actor was apparently pissed off at this change since they specifically hired him due to his skill in sword dances only to not get to do anything.

[@paulgibbon5991]

@@rotciv557 But on the flip side, his scene IS one of the most memorable in the movies, probably more so than if the fight scene has been done entirely straight.

[@kirstenpaff8946]

Red: Talks about stories accidentally making a serious moment funny due to poor execution. Me: I don't like sand. Red: Shows the I don't like sand scene. Me: Called it!

[@MrImastinker]

You know what’s so funny about the sand line? In a different context, it could totally work. Like, say it’s Anakin and Padme just relaxing and having a good time at the beach, and he gets some sand in his boot. Palme cracks a joke at his expense that he must be used to sand, growing up with it and all. Cue him going, “Well I’m not…” and then going from there.

[@al3xand993]

​@@MrImastinker it sounds so easy

[@Saiyanking72]

@@MrImastinker i feel mist of the lines during the Prequals are like that. On their own they arent bad(kinda) just used in the wrong way

[@maximumwill9208]

@@Saiyanking72 mostly because unlike the original trilogy where George had writers and directors to help and wrangle him in, the prequels had him writing and directing with little to no oversight. So when George wants an awkward or stilted line delivered in a specific way he's going to get it with little to no push back. Unless you're Samuel Jackson

[@micahwest3566]

See, I love the prequels because beneath all the goofiness and poor execution there’s a skeleton of a really cool story there! The sequels have the exact opposite problem- they look amazing on the surface but underneath there’s just nothing there at all

[@michaelsandy2869]

Oddly, a movie scene that completely shaped my idea of good romance was Bathos. Leia says "I love you" and Han says "I know". And it hit me that that was actually a very good response. WAY too often in movies, literature and life, someone says "I love you" like it is supposed to be a formula prompt, something has to be said in response to it. And when my now wife said "I love you" for the first time, I responded with "yay!" and a happy bounce. Because conveying how it felt to be loved was more important than saying "I love you" back like a potentially empty formula. Leia is distraught that she never told Han that she loved him, and he reassures her that he KNEW. It was funny, but it was the funny that held profound meaning for me.

[@gnarthdarkanen7464]

That's what makes it one of, if not THE best written scene in the movie... It does two things exactly and in order... 1st, Han gets to come across "on the surface" as the obnoxious prick who doesn't tell Leia that he loves her back. It disrupts the whole expected flow from "I love you, too"... AND forces that "Han is always the coolest and snarkiest cat in the room"... 2nd, and anywhere from moments to hours later, you slip back to realize Leia WOULD have regretted not telling Han she loved him... She had to say it, to make sure he knew that before the carbomite... AND Han was letting her know that he knew already... she didn't have to worry about it... AND that pushes forward that Han is somewhat smarter and more sensitive than he lets on, he KNOWS what love feels like... and that's more than a "dumber than a bucket of hair pirate and smuggler"... One line did BOTH those two things, more or less at the same time, in the same moment of the same conversation. TWO WORDS communicated nearly two paragraphs to the audience about a character... Think about that. That's the miracle of refined "dense" dialogue and subtext. It's where writing goes from good to GREAT. ;o)

[@screaminggecko7660]

its also sweet in a very awkward way, like "fuck that wasn't what I was supposed to say was it"

[@michaelsandy2869]

@@gnarthdarkanen7464 As I understand it, this was something that Ford improvised, and was NOT something written by Lucas. But I most definitely agree that those two words communicated a LOT.

[@Exaldear]

​@@michaelsandy2869 there's a bit of debate on whether he improvised it or not. It might have been one of those try it this way and it worked type things.

[@sabertoothkim]

I think one of the big reasons it hits so hard is because, practically since romantic love first emerged as a meaningful concept, countless scammers have made a living by convincing people that happiness in love is exclusively reserved for those who follow a highly specific set of rules (which change constantly, of course). You have to have sex on the third date, never before. You have to close your eyes when you kiss. And when one person first says, "I love you" you have to say "I love you, too", verbatim...Han's line in that scene completely (if perhaps accidentally) undercuts that, and implies that what really solidified their relationship was all the time they spent together before then, so the ritual call-and-response moment audiences were so trained to expect was unnecessary.

[@bazbloodwolf]

One of my favorite moments of Bathos in film is in Return of the Jedi when Han is frantically trying to hot wire the bunker door and yells "I think I got it! I got it!" and he causes the extra blast door to close instead of opening the door and gives a non-verbal "well crap" look. To this day it gets a well earned giggle from me.

[@elianaslivia4405]

For me it’s when Percy reads the Great Prophecy in the last PJ book. “Halfblood of the eldest dogs” undercuts the tension in a way that’s realistic and funny, before dropping right back into a tense moment when Percy realises he’s destined to die

[@owensreviews625]

Batman: “Alfred, I’m watching OSP’s video about Bathos!” Alfred: “What is a hos, sir?”

[@bacsilva]

If you let Bruce Timm have his way, Barbara Gordon

[@mobi4482]

Damn that's a good one lmao

[@TrueAohaku]

It pulls the cawt, pawdnah.

[@waxfigurefamous9189]

I just choked on my lunch lmao. Thank you for this

[@Lechgang]

@@bacsilva God damn you for being so funny.

[@wheres.wolfgang]

“Merry and Pipin were busy getting hash-blasted with the ents” is a helluva sentence

[@Mach1048]

But it's not wrong :)

[@MatthiasPendragon]

Always grateful for book-Ginli appreciation. Also, its so odd to me that they completely rewrote his character to make him the funny one in the movies, when its LEGOLAS who legit makes quips and jokes and acts goofy in the books. Gandalf, exhausted from toiling through snow, remarks that if they could "fetch the sun" they might burn away the snow. Cue the elf frolicking across the top of the snow declaring "I'm off to fetch the sun!" When they lose Merry and Pippin's trail, Legolas suggests that the hobbits must have "sprouted wings and flown away!" He does this all the time, and they could have much more faithfully upped HIS comedy rather than Gimli's and maintained the funny man/straight man dynamic.

[@daviddaugherty2816]

They basically turned Gimli into Bruenor from the Legend of Drizzt series. It's been a while since I've read them, but I'm pretty sure that scene when he's comedically pinned under a pile of corpses is pulled more from _those_ books than the LotR books.

[@phastinemoon]

I reiterate that it was at least in part because of casting -- John Rhys-Davies has a very jovial, natural comedic energy, and while Orlando Bloom CAN be funny, he works a lot better as the 'comically serious' half of a funny man/straight man duo. The second reason, I think, is because they didn't want to necessarily fall into the trap of elves being conflated with the Keebler/Shoemaking/North Pole variety, which WOULD have clashed very harshly with the tone of the films.

[@SerDerpish]

After his little quip, Legolas then correctly reports that they’ve taken the hobbits to Isengard. … I’m sorry, I couldn’t resist 😅

[@quinnholleman1547]

And Gimli gets plenty of comedic moments, but because he takes everything too seriously, not because he's constantly making quips. Seeing him as a lovestruck dope about Galadriel is hilarious and heartwarming and it makes the moments where he threatens to kill people because they insulted someone they've only heard rumors about and never met is genuinely hilarious and leads to a heartwarming scene at Aragorn and Arwen's wedding when he reunites with someone he threatened earlier and they can bond over how Gimli, being a dwarf, looks to the past and therefore prefers Galadriel, a symbol of the passing time of the Elves, while the other person, being a man, looks to the future and therefore prefers Arwen, a symbol of the coming time of man

[@Pinkstarclan]

it's bc Legolas is conventionally hot and ginli isn't :\ people really will just strip an attractive character of all personality so they can be "sexier" while refusing to take anyone they don't find attractive/marketable-y hot seriously. it sucks.

[@_thehalcyon]

Hearing Red say "skill issue" is strangely hilarious

[@coyote-bird1801]

I gotta say I appreciate all the Into The Spiderverse and Kung Fu Panda 2 examples shown in this video. Those movies really executed this trope so well!

[@Exaldear]

That's why I like the thumbnail scene from GotG. Gunn has his cake and eats it too. Undercut moment with dance off gag, steal stone then the guardians coming together.

[@VoidLantadd]

​@@ExaldearI think he went a bit far with it in places in GotG2, but the rest of the series had a perfect balance of emotion and comedy for me.

[@zackhostetler4889]

Hey. -Shoulder touch-

[@Jrpyify]

For examples of not doing it well, they should have included Thor: Love and Thunder - a movie that appeared to be trying to Bathos itself to death.

[@DerMoerpler]

​@@Jrpyify Which is a shame because they wasted both one of the MCUs potentially best villains as well as one of their potentially most interesting subplots (Janes cancer being both paused and intensified by wielding Mjölnir). They managed to pull off this trope so much better in Ragnarok too.

[@hughmann633]

Hear me out: Bathos can work really well when the subversion is much better than the expectation. Spongebob: That's not the worm! Sandy: Pardon? Spongebob: That's not the worm! That's his tongue.

[@BenZ-ui7tu]

It's knowing how to deliver set-up and delivery.

[@dargo5025]

For some reason one of the Stanley Parable endings (Ultra Deluxe) came to mind. There’s a moment where there’s a fakeout that reveals the Narrator is a bunch of prerecorded lines, and you turn off a cassette player of his voice. However, suddenly the real Narrator returns and berates you for thinking he’s just a bunch of prerecorded lines.

[@glanni]

Always give the audience the best payoff you can.

[@zigedelic3909]

She literally spends minutes of the video explaining exactly that.

[@glanni]

@@zigedelic3909 It was a good example though, because the worm being this insanely huge thing is much cooler than it living in a cave and being moderately-sized.

[@kaneobscurum6016]

Liking the King Fu Panda examples being on full display as good ways to blend the goofy and the sincere. I will always enjoy the scene where Po talks to Tigress about finding out he's adopted, because it kinda pulls the double whammy. It starts all serious, then he lets her know what's bothering him and they start the tone shift with her pointing out his dad is a goose. But then just as you've got your chuckle she follows with an attempt at genuine understanding, showing that she does care for Po and that she's matured some from the previous film.

[@amazingdancingturnips9236]

Yes! I absolutely love the fact that they can sprinkle in the joke but it doesn't halt the scene, we still get full emotional payoff and a chance to see how the characters' relationship has evolved

[@samwallaceart288]

What works about it is they're super consistent about Po genuinely believing that the goose is his biological father; this is the reality we're dealing with. The funny part isn't that Po's dumb, but that Tigress has went this whole time calling him dumb and unqualified and slowly building up respect for him, and through all of that she just assumed that Po knew he was adopted. Tigress trying to quickly process Po's lifelong naivete and move past it to be there for him and give sincere advice is the funny part

[@seasnaill2589]

@@samwallaceart288 I love Po's face as she says 'the goose', like he's processing how dumb the idea he was ever the biological son of a goose was.

[@wjzav1971]

@@seasnaill2589 I don't think he ever realized that a goose being his father is impossible. That expression is just him being depressed about learning that he is adopted and wondering what happened to his parents.

[@bluelfsuma]

​@@wjzav1971 Did you all forget when Po says "I knew it." and when Mr. Ping is surprised, he says, "C'mon, dad."

[@rockybirdy1529]

My favourite use of this trope is the Bathos getting snap back with serious/heartfelt moment. (Serious > Joke > Serious) Like in Indiana Jones 3 (aka the one with his dad), where it looked like Indie fell off a cliff and his dad was mourning about how much he haven't said to him while looking down the cliff. Then, of course , Indie climbs up from the side unnoticed and jokingly looks down the cliff with him, like "Oh wow, yeah...that's a long way down". Then, his dad turns back and sees him, immediate hugs him says "I thought I lost you". Indie hugs him back and it is very heartfelt. Another reason why I loves this scene is that it makes sense that indie tried to play it cool and jokingly, cuz the two of them have quite a rocky relationship and aren't good at expressing emotion to each other (ie, there are scenes where Indie does something cool only to turn to his dad's totally unamused and unimpressed face), so it's also in-character, which makes the next moment of breaking the facade and sincere emotion even better.

[@nathank2289]

Despite all his movies the legends best scenes are all him as a father figure

[@tristanstrain9751]

4:05 Okay but a character responding to "You were my BROTHER!" with a sinister, mocking "Look at this idiot with FEELINGS" is actually pretty good, if it were toned as disrespect toward their relationship rather than an edgy "feelings make you weak" sort of way.

[@100lovenana]

The problem isn't showing emotions, the problem is HOW you show them. I haven't watched the prequel trilogy, but if 'feelings make you weak' really is how Anakin answered to Obiwan's quote, then yikes... That doesnt sound like the voice of a broken, betrayed, conflicted young man who's honestly hurt but must keep fighting. It sounds like a a child throwing a tantrum. No wonder people find it corny. Unfortunately, as they always do, the audience misread the problem, thinking that showing feelings is the problem in itself Edit: Ok, apparently the actual quote form Anakin was 'you were always jelous of me', but it still stands my point!! He still sounds like a spoiled brat

[@HobGungan]

​​​@@100lovenanaIt was neither. In fact, if I'm remembering order of events correctly, he didn't have any response to that line because he had just caught on fire. Obi-Wan was responding to Anakin's hurt and frenzied screaming of "I HATE YOU!" Honestly, I-III were fantastic films. Melodramatic of course, but no worse than IV-VI and I'm sick of people pretending otherwise.

[@TwilitbeingReboot]

Adam's entire personality in Hazbin Hotel feels like this - ruthlessly and unrelentingly undercutting every showing of emotion that happens in his presence. We laugh along because he's entertaining, but we're also constantly reminded that he's lost all capacity for empathy in his ten-thousand-year crusade against Hell.

[@timothycarney9652]

@@TwilitbeingReboot Wait, the guy who's first reaction to seeing a woman who wasn't subvervient to him was to dump her HAD EMPATHY at one point? I need to go back and actually finish that series.

[@TwilitbeingReboot]

@@timothycarney9652 Not proven yet, but we know he was human once, so it's unlikely his entire personality is just a cardboard cutout.

[@prop-a-gent]

This made me think about how, with Bathos being quite a trend these days, there is a unique phenomenon of the rare double-bluff bathos, where in a moment of sincerity, a character (usually the comic relief) tries to lighten the mood, but the others aren't having it. Leading to a confrontation that typically amounts to the comedic relief apologizing with "I'm sorry, I'm scared and comedy is my coping mechanism." Which I think feels pretty good when done right. All characters stay true to themselves, and the sincerity of the moment is preserved.

[@Excelsior1937]

Yeah I was thinking of that too. The moment from the climax of SAO Abridged Episode 8 comes to mind for me. Kirito spends almost the whole show ruthlessly mocking people and delighting in their suffering, and after witnessing a character death that genuinely upsets him, his first instinct is to try and make a pun about through nervous stammering. Someone calls him out for being a total asshole and the nervous stammering continues with “What? I’m the funny guy that’s what I do! I shouldn’t care, I DONT care” followed by him throwing away the schtick when someone else nearly gets killed to, diving to their rescue and delivering a moment of way more sincerity than he’s comfortable with.

[@spacebutterfly2873]

Yes love that

[@Lunacorva]

@@Excelsior1937 Or DBZ Aridged: "REALLY man?!" "Let me cope!"

[@liimlsan3]

​@@Excelsior1937"I CAN'T STOP I'm broken please fix me!"

[@CJWproductions]

Guardians of the Galaxy

[@thomasallred3003]

"Self-deprecating humor is really only funny to the people who are comfortable deprecating you, and uncomfortable to everyone else." One of the truest statements I have ever had to learn the hard way.

[@caitlinb]

Took me 30 years to realize that my self depreciating humor only signaled to people that it was okay if they made fun of me too. I stopped and so did they.

[@CapnShades]

I was dating a girl who makes these jokes all the time. I asked her to stop because it was hurting someone I loved. She never stopped, so we split. :/

[@noriringtail7428]

That's why if you do self-deprecating humor, you have to be really good at making it seem like you have plenty of confidence to begin with- you just acknowledge, maybe a little grudgingly, that you also have faults. I think the same is true of storytelling- it's best used in balance.

[@Respectable_Username]

Thanks for not including the Rocket "standing around like a bunch of losers" scene as one if the examples! I don't know if you just didn't think to put it in or remembered the essay I might have left in the comments section of the last video, but I do think that scene is so unfairly maligned across the internet. Rocket is the only one to undercut the sincerity of that moment, but he does it in service of his character arc and how he's learning to become more vulnerable (he is opening himself up to physical danger to help this new family by accepting at all, but he's still got that barrier to emotional danger), so you get the ultimate gut-punch when he finally drops the protective sarcasm over fear and grief for Groot leading up to and just following the climax. It's not the _author_ afraid of sincerity but the _character_ , as part of an arc about opening up and accepting found family ❤

[@OverlyPositiveFanboy]

And this is why we love James Gunn and the Guardians.

[@yiklongtay6029]

In the most recent OSP podcast episodes talking about Bathos, red basically says the same that there are interesting in story context in why Rocket undercuts any chance at intimacy

[@Respectable_Username]

@@yiklongtay6029 Oooo thanks for flagging! I'm gonna have to look that one up 😊

[@SamBrockmann]

That is, imho, one of the most sincere lines in the film.

[@NelsonStJames]

Gunn knows how to use Bathos properly, but also note that Gunn tends to have more character driven stories than the typical MCU film. Gunn never really has a character act out of character just for a laugh. If anything he does the opposite where he'll show a character that we the audience thought of as a goof actually having more depth than we gave them credit for; i.e. Drax in GotG Book 3.

[@Talisguy]

Narm is interesting, because it can sometimes have nothing to do with skill issues - the trope namer is possibly the most realistic depiction of a stroke or a cerebral haemorrhage ever filmed. Sometimes, narm happens because an accurate depiction of something that's horrifying or dramatic to actually *live* through just doesn't play well onscreen, if you're removed from the reality of what's happening.

[@QuantumWaltz]

1) I'm very sorry, my brain read "trope narmer" and I suffered with that mental image for a time 2) Even if you ARE familiar with the reality of what's happening, you may have a personal defensive reaction to that kind of accuracy in media. Gallows humor exists for a very important reason, speaking as someone who has been _horrified_ by her own in-life * wholly instinctive* quips made as a coping mechanism on the job. My coworkers understand, of course, we're all in the same boat, but it's not wrong to say that bathos and/or narm can in some cases be art imitating life.

[@rickpgriffin]

There was a play I read in college called Six Characters In Search Of An Author, and I wasn't sure that I liked it very much at the time because a lot of the postmodernist "isn't this so clever" takes on adapting a story for an audience seemed almost banal and obvious. But the deeper I get into writing the more I realize how important an observation it is. Like yeah obviously the characters whispering in a stageplay have to talk loud enough for an audience to hear them, but how many movie directors seem to think that a scene taking place at night needs to be in pitch darkness? There's so many ways that authors MUST sacrifice the reality of a story for presentation that often we don't even THINK of them as an audience. The "narm" moment for instance, if it was shot in a way that was as close to reality as possible, I suspect people would be more willing to buy it. But most TV and movies are cleaned up in a version of heightened reality the same way that artists draw the focal point of a scene in clearer detail: it's not accurate, but it serves to let the audience take a closer look, to draw focus, to see the emotional reality underneath. We're not thinking about the literal reality of the moment, but instead picking it apart for the idea or theme inside of it. And often in that moment, what the artist's eye chooses to focus on can lead the audience in one direction or another. If you paint a portrait of the most beautiful person in the world but actually make SURE to include all the blemishes it seems like it's a parody because of that intentionality, even if it's technically true.

[@Talisguy]

@@rickpgriffin Or, sometimes, reality is unrealistic. If you've never actually seen anyone have a stroke in the real world, but you've seen it on a soap opera, a stroke looks like someone clutching their head in agony. That's just how it looks to you. So when a character has a stroke and slurs his words before his eyes roll back and he falls over with a thud, it doesn't look like a stroke, it just looks silly. ...Unless, of course, that's exactly what happened when your grandmother died. It's like how swords and knives always make metal-on-metal scraping sounds whenever they're drawn. That's just what they sound like for most people, and if you don't hear that in a film then your brain thinks something is missing. Horses always make coconut sounds when they gallop, regardless of the surface. An audience isn't always aware of the reality that's intentionally being highlighted - sometimes, filmmaking techniques used to convey something entirely supplant what that thing *actually* looks like.

[@mistared4021]

There was this KZbinr I think talking about dialogue and how "realistic" doesn't always mean good, people irl often mumble, interrupt eachother and use faulty grammar but using that dialogue in a story just feels awkward.

[@mihaiandrei12]

@@mistared4021 What youtuber?

[@AltesBuddha]

I feel like the opposite of this is what Futurama does so well. Being complete comedy the entire time and then injecting heartfelt emotions that pay off so well and hurt so good.

[@rogerostrander3292]

I was actually thinking Futurama for the "She's right behind me, isn't she?" "No, I'm in front of you"

[@conspiracypanda1200]

Futurama is comedy until it's suddenly punching you in the gut with long lost dogs and love letters written with stars.

[@el_goblino413]

I don't think I'll ever forget luck of the fryish...

[@sockpuppetqueen]

It works for the same reason though, right? Especially in early seasons of Futurama, you're not bracing yourself all episode for something serious- so when the serious thing happens, it's really got some impact! Compare the first few seasons, where deep heartfelt moments are very much the exception rather than the rule, to like, after the reboot, where they started almost regularly giving us those moments... they honestly started to feel stale and lose their impact, after a while. There's still good episodes of post-reboot Futurama, but your expectations are different. An ending like Luck of the Fryrish or Jurassic Bark isn't out of left field, it's just kind of a thing that happens sometimes. And that's fine, but it's not subverting your expectations any more, so it loses that element of catching you off-guard.

[@willow1wisp]

​@@sockpuppetqueen I actually remember hearing something about stuff like that and why comedies actually are perfect for some of the most emotional moments. Comedy has a way of making us drop our guard down and be more open to buying the things a story is offering (characters, the world, ect). A dramatic moment in a serious drama is in no way inherently worse, but I think more people are receptive of it.

[@Akkalia]

I'm surprised you didn't mention ALTA. I feel this is a comman trope they employ. When you describe Bathos my mind immediately went to this scene Iroh: [grim] Who would have thought, after all these years, I'd return to the scene of my greatest military disgrace... [suddenly cheerful and puts on a flowered hat] Iroh : ...as a tourist!

[@everentropy]

Or "that's rough buddy". Because Zuko is a character not emotionally aware, of course he wouldn't know what to say. So the monet is very in character but also breaks the tension of the scene

[@BenZ-ui7tu]

Iroh is the perfect example of it done right. The "Do you know why they call me the Dragon of the West" scene Iroh is treated as comic relief but you're also told that he is not someone to fuck with by tertiary characters who look at him in awe.

[@xavierthomas5835]

​@@BenZ-ui7tu Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. Ephesians 4:29

[@frostflamegames673]

I feel like the use of Bathos in Iroh shows his personality in a lot of ways. He has a lot of things in his life that could make him depressed and angsty and such, those surrounding Lu-Ten's death, but he chooses to accept these things in stride and enjoy life to its fullest, since that's the way he is.

[@syringay1949]

Azula too when she does her Zuko impression and says “It’s okay. You can laugh. It’s funny.” It’s kind of bathos-y in the face of the Gaang encountering a new enemy who’s also related to their enemy Zuko. But Azula plays it straight and demonstrates how little she respects her brother

[@foolbio5471]

When I think "Bathos, but still cool and meaningful", I think of the wedding scene in pirates of the caribbean because it is very funny to see them all fight while officiating a wedding, but it doesn't undercut how cool everything is

[@dmgroberts5471]

Barbossa is just _that_ cool.

[@marocat4749]

Honetly terry pratchet, the whole cynical real world commentary that isntthat negative, but very cynical. And how that is used with antasy tropes to subvert them. The entire carrot thing that is more satisying seeing him be that in the guard for example. How other are tht tropes but he not only goes for cynical realism, but makes it really interesting. Also stil very sincere That has top e bathos used the bet way, through it part o that world o maybe there is another term.

[@thehistoryandbooknerd8979]

As someone who has literally just finished a Creative Writing class at college just two days ago, the line of “sharing a story you care about is like ripping your heart out and submitting it for peer review” hit me, as we did that multiple times, both with short stories and poetry.

[@bobaoriley1912]

I'm having to do the same thing in my Pre-AP Eng class, and I'm and dreading the moment

[@thehistoryandbooknerd8979]

@@bobaoriley1912 You got this! It’s scary, but so worth it (my Creative Writing class was nice; the professor made sure the environment was polite and civil, as well as ensuring that everyone treated everyone else with respect in their feedback.

[@bobaoriley1912]

@@thehistoryandbooknerd8979 Thank you very much. I definitely feel that I need a different perspective to view my writing and make it better, and I am very glad that we’re doing it anonymously.

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

That's what we do in my writing class group. Actually, it pushes me to be more sincere myself in my writing too.

[@mariokarter13]

The weirdest feedback I ever got in a creative writing class was the time I accidentally ripped off a scene from something I'd never seen before. When I actually watched it it was almost beat for beat. It was bizarre.

[@mangamango5569]

Does anyone remember that one episode of SAO abridged where Kirito and Asuna had started dating and Kirito started caring about people, but didn’t want to admit it to himself. He ends up seeing someone that he thought was stupid and silly die in front of him and he tries to crack a joke about it, to which Klein is like “Are you serious right now?” and Kirito responds in a shaky voice “What can I say, I’m a funny guy.” The in-universe Bathos was actually being used as a plot point that lead into a fully sincere moment.

[@itspienoon7883]

God I love SAO Abridged, that scene and many others involving Kirito's snark have such a good balance in comedy and consistency. "HOW DARE YOU MAKE ME CARE ABOUT THEM??"

[@FrancisR420]

Brings up an interesting concept, Is it still bathos If you undercut humor with sincerity, or what do you call that cuz It is equally annoyingly common. The double reverse bathos

[@KMShinobiFox]

Regarding Gimli: I will say that without his bathosiness throughout the films, I don't think the "what about side by side with a friend" exchange betwen him and Legolas would have hit me quite as hard.

[@BFedie518]

Gimli and Legolas's relationship in the movie is friendly rivalry, so the bathos and the "side-by-side with a friend" line work. In the book, their relationship feels downright romantic--talking about how they'll go and live in a forest together after everything is over. Very different.

[@BBoxCleaner]

While I do agree on this particular line in the movies, I’m also of the opinion that movie Gimli was a case of “too much bathos”. By the time the movies get to Edoras, it felt like they decided to make him the jester and that nothing he says or does had any “weight” to it. In the books, he’s not only a dignified warrior/noble from Erebor; I really get the impression that he’s used by Tolkien to underline that no race was safe from the threat of the ring. This race of people who live most/all of their lives inside mountains (veritable fortresses) could theoretically wait out nearly any attack on their kingdoms, but him turning up at all in the story seems to show rather than say that they, too, are doomed if Sauron reclaims the ring because Sauron’s able to even corrupt and ruin the very earth itself. By giving Gimli so much bathos in the movies, it felt like the director and screenwriter were undermining the emotional weight of one of the story’s overarching themes, which was that no one (no matter how isolated) can remain completely unaffected by the events in the world around them. Movie Gimli’s “bathosiness”, to use your term, in my mind has a very similar effect as the director choosing to leave out the scouring of the Shire. Sorry, I didn’t mean to get so intense about this. 🙂 I have had strong feelings about the choices made by the director and the film crew ever since the LOTR movies first came out in theaters.

[@readmachine18]

@@BFedie518 All the Gigolas shippers make even more sense now ;p (though that ship name is *awful,* my goodness)

[@davidprince6877]

@@BFedie518 And then Legolas builds them a boat and sneaks Gimli into elf heaven.

[@LordVader1094]

Yeah but I would've liked some more serious moments with him. They made him into pure comedic relief which got annoying by the third film.

[@Blairington]

Self-deprecating humor for the confident: "I'll publicly display my flaws since it would be insecure to hide them, and mock myself in the process to show I don't take myself too seriously!" Self-deprecating humor for others: "Are they joking about their flaws because they're fishing for a compliment/reassurance? Weird and insecure." If you're going to make self-deprecating jokes, be sure you have an audience that doesn't mistake what you mean! Edit: English is my only language, and I ought to at least know it well.

[@boosterh1113]

Note for your future use: deprecate and depreciate are not the same word. (It is easier to distinguish them in verbal vs written English, because the "c" in depreciate is pronounced as an "sh." To deprecate is to speak ill of something, to insult it with the intent of making others think less of it. To depreciate is to lose value. You you might have self-deprecating humour, and your car depreciates when you drive it off the lot.

[@Blairington]

@@boosterh1113 Oof, cheers!

[@LuckySketches]

Okay but what if I AM weird and insecure?

[@enderluckjarmg985]

Idk if you meant "make self-deprecating jokes" as in writting but I absolutely do not support those types of jokes in real life. Its ok if its a coping mechanism or smtnh similar but if you WANT to do it, dont. Its not healthy. And if you dont, and like I said, is just you coping, seek to better yourself and not get caught in a negativity loop, cuz this can happen: "I hate myself" -> "They hate themselves" -> "Do I hate myself? They believed me!" -> "I hate myself..." But if you meant it in that way, oops, sorry xD Just wanted to tell this. A lot of people, especially age 18 or so do it consciously and think it is good /funny to self-depricate themselves (SPOILER it only worsens whatever insecurities you may have).

[@iantaakalla8180]

Given that making too many self-deprecating jokes actively makes you feel worse and therefore perform worse, does this mean that those jokes also become self-depreciating?

[@elizabethgodwin7679]

I noticed you used the Indiana Jones gunshot as an example of bathos. I love that one! I'm told that it was an improv on the part of the actors because the lead had food poisoning that day and was too tired to do the planned long swordfight, but my favorite thing about it is that in the next movie they set up to do the exact same thing with a "bad guy" doing the exact same choreography that lead up to it the first time then Indy reaches for his gun and it isn't there!! He lost it in the river! They subverted their own subversion and it was brilliant!! I laughed so hard

[@horacevonbergamot5093]

Funnily, as annoying as the modern quips get, Bathos coming from a point of sincerity or established character points will stand the test of time. One of my favorite examples is when Azula undercuts her opening up about how her mother thought her a monster with a joke about she was right. That is not just funny because of the comedic timing, but also good because someone as unhinged and broken as Azula would actually joke happily about something like that. Generally, so many of the jokes even the quippier ones in that series still work. Its just a matter of execution.

[@Daughter_of_Stories]

Part of what makes that line work is that, while it is funny, it's also deeply tragic. You might laugh in the moment, but you don't just remember that it was a good gag, you remember that Azula believes her mother rejected her as a monster /and was right to do so./

[@Rukdug]

It also works because while Azula is kind of joking, it's yet another sign of just how mentally damaged and hurt she is. Like, the entire episode she is out of her element and we realize...she can't really function properly outside of some sort of battlefield, whether it be physical or political.

[@nathroe1415]

I always saw that moment as Azula covering up the fact she was actually a little hurt by that thought with a poor attempt at humor.

[@horacevonbergamot5093]

@@Daughter_of_Stories @Rukdug @Nath Roe Exactly the way I took it as well - I mean it literally follows her friends explanations on how they deal with their issues, with Ty Lee beeing pretty extroverted and Mai well beeing Mai, bit grungy and all that, the scene basicly just expects you to connect the dots. Bathos works, when it is fitting. For example, within the MCU Movies, it works for some characters, mainly Tony Stark because he is an detached billionaire genius, but it gets pretty fucking annoying when every character tries to be like that and the worst of that, interchangeably so. On the villain side, I found the "Who am I to judge" Line pretty funny, because yeah, the guy is an unhinged sorcerer in contact with eldritch powers, its reasonable that he is a bit detached from things, while with Ultron I found most attempts at humor pretty cringy.

[@brigidtheirish]

@@horacevonbergamot5093 Ultron was basically a newborn with the personality of an edgy teenager. Yeah, his attempts at humor are going to be pretty cringy.

[@SeanFlynnNB]

One of the things I love about Pacific Rim is how unapologetically keeps its main story sincerely heroic and sandboxes its humor.

[@LimeyLassen]

It's the best of both worlds. The spectacle of a modern production with the cheesy heart of the old retro stuff it was inspired by.

[@sebastianlee3821]

This is one of the reasons I will always love the Riddick series. They're dumb as a stump but oh boy are they sincere.

[@warrenpeace0]

I don't even get mad about "Gypsy's analog. Nuclear." because everyone in the movie is absolutely 100% into it

[@_TimelessX]

“Joy… I know you have these feelings, feelings that make you so sad, that makes you just want to give up. It’s not your fault… it’s her… Juju Chewbacca.” As someone who’s been on both sides of the language barrier, this scene made me laugh and tear up

[@jordanloux3883]

Honestly, I read that as Evelyn not seeing the part she personally played in Juju's creation/her daughter's alienation. It was her not seeing the problem right in front of her.

[@elliart7432]

I think that’s another way to do bathos right, if the character themself is remaining sincere but a genuine mistake they would actually make on that moment happens to be funny

[@liimlsan3]

Best version may simply be the boy from "The Princess Bride." We see him undercut every dramatic turn, ask if we can skip the kissing, until at the very end, he realizes - "I don't so much mind the kissing."

[@lukeroberson2115]

More than that, you see him genuinely grow invested over the course of the story. Like when he gets genuinely upset when he thinks Humperdinck is going to get off scot-free.

[@frequencyoffun5159]

This episode could be called "Why people dislike modern MCU humor" and it would be perfectly accurate.

[@thezerowulf2046]

Exactly

[@MysteriumArcanum]

THIS! I love Marvel but I'm sick to death of all the times a seemingly epic moment is ruined by a joke that has at best a 50/50 shot at actually landing.

[@reganator5000]

Weirdly, as one of the series that pioneered this exact type of humor, Guardians of the Galaxy volume 3 seems to... well, use it well- it's the expected form when things aren't actually too serious, but, having seen it last night, I'm pretty sure it's gone from being how Gunn undercuts moments he wasn't sure of to a way to highlight ones he knows are going to work by its absence. Weirdly dark, serious film for one that's full of MCU action & comedy. In particular, it's notable that any emotional moments early on are painfully undercut, but also that when the emotional arcs ARE coming to their conclusion, the bathos falls away to leave behind actual sincerity that is then so much more impactful for not being undercut with a joke.

[@אדם-ג6ז]

This is the same honour for like 10 years now

[@TJDious]

And yet people threw tantrums when a complete comedy character wasn't in Quantumania.

[@ignorant1126]

My favourite moments of unintended bathos: Trolls 1: "Why not, why can't you sing?" "Because singing killed my grandma!" Avatar: "My ex girlfriend turned into the moon." "That's rough, buddy." Riverdale: "If you haven't guessed, I'm weird, I'm a weirdo. I don't fit in and I don't want to fit in."

[@navadax4541]

I would say Avatar was very much on purpose because it was showing Zuko's difficulty to emotionally connect with people, but the other two were definitely trying to be serious

[@UpbeatMisanthropist]

@@navadax4541 also how the hell do you react to "my girlfriend turned into the moon". There's no hallmark card for that one!

[@ZedAmadeus]

HAHAHA I fucking love the singing killed my grandma one. It kills me every time, not that I've watched Trolls a lot of times, but I have a younger sibling, so ya know. Definitely think the my girlfriend turned into the moon was on purpose though.

[@Pinkstarclan]

"That's rough, buddy" was VERY much on purpose lol

[@giantslayer9335]

This is one of the many reasons I adore Puss in Boots 2. In any other movie, the scene with Perrito comforting Puss during his anxiety attack would have been undercut with a joke. But it wasn’t, and I’m very glad for that

[@nathank2289]

Same with Puss bleeding. I was fully expecting it to be jam but was impressed they left it intact

[@Swordsmen99]

@nathank2289 Heck, when he was escaping from the wolf through the toilet, I was expecting, well, toilet humor

[@xavierthomas5835]

Playing it straight shows you have depth. But if you're going to play it crooked, at least show that you have the skill to do so. Otherwise you end up with comedic relief characters instead of comedic relief. Whole characters dedicated to an idea on humor that amounts to irony.

[@mesektet5776]

Red starting by going off on a tangent about how she can’t understand why we like her going off on tangents: Perfect.

[@starmaker75]

My response to red: this is KZbin, it build on watching people go on tangent.

[@eyald.8252]

I'm certain 90% of red's audience is neurodivergent

[@steelrexer1062]

Only 90?

[@kohakuaiko]

Yeah, that checks out. I have a few NT friends who watch her, but most a obviously ND.

[@pendragon2012]

My favorite Bathos line came from a retelling of the King Arthur myths before the Battle of Badon Hill. Kai says, "There are twenty thousand down there, if there's a thousand. We have less than 300. It's not a fair battle." Arthur shakes his head and says, "You're right. They should have brought another twenty thousand. Ah well. They'll just have to defend themselves as best they can."

[@maskofice9432]

I think the most interesting counterexample of Bathos was in the recent Dungeons and Dragons movie (spoilers for one of the scenes) So the barbarian woman has just finished talking to her ex-husband and it was rather emotional (and that scene itself could probably qualify) and afterwards her closest friend, the bard, comes up to her and starts singing a song. It feels for all the world like a buildup to a moment where she smashes his lute or tells him to shut up or something, but instead she smiles and starts singing along in an actually sweet moment that demonstrates how much these two are there for each other. It's really interesting that we have reached a point where the setup is a bathos punchline but instead it swerves into sincerity and can be a great scene that way.

[@LoremasterYnTaris]

I loved that scene, aye. And the call-back later on made it all the better!

[@emblemblade9245]

The character interactions in that movie were so good. It really did feel sincere, while still having the right amount of quipping and chaos for a TTRPG setting.

[@Gloomdrake]

Kind of reminds me of that one scene in Promare. Where the joke is that it looks like it's going to be a generic "no homo" joke, but it turns out the character doesn't mind being kissed by another guy, and is actually angry about something much more reasonable

[@calicodavis1511]

Yes! I loved that scene for that same reason!

[@SPofSaturnProduction]

Oh gosh your right, and I remember bracing for it too. Gosh that was such a good movie.

[@Methus3lah]

“Telling a story you care deeply about is a bit like tearing your heart out and submitting it for peer review.” This means a lot to hear, honestly. Despite the fact that I like to think of myself as a writer, it’s really scary. It’s relieving to know that it’s scary for everyone.

[@sharodnowshadabdullah3598]

As an Arcane fanboy, this trope talk reminded me of a certain scene near the end of the 1st season. *SPOILERS* In the final episode of season 1, Jinx kidnaps Vi, Silco and Caitlyn, and holds them hostage at the tea party. As Jinx is having an emotional confrontation with Vi and Silco, she remarks that someone seems to be missing and that she had paid Caitlyn a visit. With Jinx being drugged up with shimmer and suffering acute psychosis, Vi is understandably terrified of the implications. The scene is played out completely seriously as Jinx brings out a serving dish covered with a cloche. The big moment arrives, and surprise! It was just a cupcake. Even Jinx says, "Sheesh, I'm not THAT crazy." This scene is basically anti-bathos. It presents as a subversion of a serious moment to the audience, but in-story it is absolutely heartbreaking. Jinx, as unstable as she was throughout the season, never maliciously intended to hurt the people she cared about. Scarred by the death of her family in the cannery explosion earlier in the season, and later groomed by Silco as her father figure, Jinx is broken by the world and lost in her own mind. She is too blinded by trauma to see the suffering she inflicts on others through violence and killing. But throughout the season we, as the audience as well as the characters in-story have slowly bought into her surface-level chaotic nature in spite of witnessing the true nature of events. This scene serves as a test for all onlookers, both in-story and out of it, to assess their opinions on Jinx. Vi is panicked because she thought, even if subconsciously, that her little sister was so far gone as to murder her love interest for sadistic pleasure. And you can see Jinx's sadness in her face when she realizes what Vi is thinking. This scene serves to highlight the ignorance of all of us onlookers at Jinx's plight through a moment of bathos. I smiled and felt relief at the Cupcake joke at first, but then became horrified when i realized the subtext the scene was implying. The sudden uplift into humor from seriousness is brought crashing down into an even darker abyss, all communicated with a flash in Jinx's eyes.

[@The_Jackpurgis]

Man, Arcane is great. Can't wait for the second season to arrive.

[@stevenhedge2850]

i don't know its still bathos because its undercut by the simple knoweldge that: they won't kill off the main champions of a popular game franchise in the first season.

[@sharodnowshadabdullah3598]

​@@stevenhedge2850I think that mileage varies mostly by your personal suspension of disbelief. Without the outsider knowledge of Caitlyn's status in-game, she should be treated the same as any other character in the series. Silco got much more character development and screen time than her before his death, and he was a new "non-canon" character.

[@Lyoko1309]

@@stevenhedge2850 Yeah, it's not like league of legends had a character die in lore, and actually didn't let you pick them. That'd be crazy. Especially if it went on for two weeks, until the character reappeared, having faked their death, with their abilities changed.

[@AnarchistArtificer]

That's a great example. I think some of the tragedy in this scene is that in Jinx's sadness, we see that she is at least somewhat self aware of her mental instability and is willing to lean into the "crazy" persona as an intimidation tool or a masking/coping strategy (likely both).

[@ShawnRavenfire]

I kept waiting for a Dr. Who clip. The Doctor undercuts important moments all the time with things that at first seem like a joke or him/her being disinterested, but the twist later, is that the Doctor was actually either paying attention to a more important clue (asking Dalek-Clara where she gets the ingredients for the souffle, or asking Amy why she calls the pond a duck pond when there are no ducks in it). Other times, he/she is trying to distract an enemy or keep a friend from becoming frightened.

[@galengraham7494]

Not only that but the doctor is often doing it to keep those around him (or even himself) from being afraid. Although I think my problem with Capaldi's era was that this got taken way to far, there were episodes that felt embarrased to be Doctor Who. The Davros one and alot of the later Missy stuff stands out pretty badly.

[@konrad1916]

​@@galengraham7494 For what i received i passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the scriptures 1 Corinthians 15 3

[@stupideronjupiter]

@@konrad1916 What does this have to do with this video or that comment???

[@nathank2289]

10 and 11 were masters of feel good bathos. "Look that child over there is crying" "First rule of time travel we can observe but must never interfere" "So you see these people who need help but you can't? That must be hard" *Sees Doctor comforting child*

[@OverlyPositiveFanboy]

I don't know if this is bathos, but I always liked the moments where The Doctor sees a scary monster and gushes over how beautiful it is.

[@snoopsq.527]

Another really good example of bathos is the Genie from Disney’s Aladdin. A very comedic, high energy subversion of the “all powerful genie” trope with a nonetheless very sincere emotional core to his character to balance it out.

[@kennyholmes5196]

*UNLIMITED COSMIC POWER!* _itty bitty little living space._

[@xavierthomas5835]

That's Robin Williams fortei, being able to laugh at situations that make others cry. Honestly alot less to do with the whole movie than that one major character in it.

[@SamBrockmann]

I think, with any actor besides Robin Williams, that wouldn't have worked.

[@keyblade9876]

That's Robin Williams for you

[@eldritchinsomniac]

I've got a fresh example of unintentionally anticipating bathos- it came out the same day this video was posted, actually. The newest SAO Abridged episode dropped, and at the end, there's a massive tearful fight between the two siblings- and you expect Kazuto to play it off with a joke, or a quip, like he tends to- but no. He just says "I... had no idea." And then the music cuts and she shuts the door on him, asking him to just leave her alone. And you think he might make a joke *here,* that this is where they'll get you. But no, he just.. stands there. Quietly facing the door in an unlit hallway as the credits roll.

[@diegonunez3492]

That shit left me speechless man

[@kokirij0167]

SAOA is fucking fantastic with its comedy and seriousness. The "I hate people" speech not being interrupted or ended with someone recording it but that being shown in the FOLLOWING episode makes it retroactively funny without ruining the impact of the scene itself. I am unironically at the edge of my seat for the next episode, I wanna see where they take Suguha and Kirito's relationship (hate that word in the context of family but the meaning's obvious)

[@janisir4529]

​@@kokirij0167the meaning is a bit less obvious if you know what's the plot of the actual anime...

[@conspirasister5945]

What I have learned from this video: -Bathos isn’t inherently bad, but, like a seasoning, needs to be used smartly and sparingly. -Into the Spiderverse is really good and I should rewatch it. -Sometimes in writing you really CAN have your cake and eat it too, and those opportunities should be taken advantage of. Great Trope Talk as usual, Red!

[@chloeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee]

bathos is a vanilla extract of storytelling

[@a-heroic-furry-i-guess1378]

@@chloeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee If that was the case I would like the MCU.

[@BR4IN1N4J4R]

I also love those gut-punch inversions of Bathos where something comical suddenly shifts to deathly serious. I'll say my example is Flash in the animated JLU universe. Ever the joker, never takes things serious, but THE MOMENT Flash doesn't have a funny quip, when he's not kidding around anymore, you know some serious shit's going on

[@Sonar009]

That's its own trope - 'Let's Get Dangerous!'

[@BR4IN1N4J4R]

Can't wait to see that one get a vid down the road

[@ViralN9]

Another example I like is Spider-Man. He's always quipping and making jokes at the expense of his opponents but the second he gets serious he gets *silent*. There's this comic I saw that had a silent Spidy taking on villains that immediately turned themselves in because "Oh shit Spidy's quiet, he's on a warpath" only for a good use of bathos in revealing the reason that Spider-Man wasn't saying anything was because he had laryngitis and lost his voice.

[@animeotaku307]

@@ViralN9Pfft! Reminds me of the Spectacular Spider Man episode where he burned his tongue and still tried to quip.

[@YayaFeiLong]

@@Sonar009 Could also be Cerebus Syndrome or Knight of Cerebus

[@MattAnd]

This is precisely why I think media that advertises itself as comedy first can have some of the best heartfelt moments. Kung Fu Panda being a prime example. Po as a character is inherently goofy, but it’s embraced and even held up as a good thing, both in and out of universe. At no point does it go too serious to the point of goofiness (in a Prequels way), but still takes itself seriously from a story point of view. Or maybe it’s just because it’s genuine and seems to enjoy what it’s doing. God those films are great, I need to watch them again

[@animeotaku307]

Hardest moment from a comedy for me was Zombieland. We get a montage of Tallahassee with a dog to “Puppy Love,” but then that montage gets repeated more sincerely after the reveal that Buck was Tallahassee’s son. And suddenly, like Columbus, you feel like an asshole for laughing about the first montage.

[@100lovenana]

That's because the writers of Kung Fu Panda were honestly trying to tell a sincere story. You can't really say the same for every other film that advertises itself in a comedic way. Kung Fu Panda was one of its kind.

[@samrevlej9331]

0:15 Red, what you call "going off on tangents" is some of the finest literary and media analysis I have seen anywhere on the Internet (as a former teacher used to say, "tangents from lecturers are what's really interesting, the rest can be found in manuals"). You are good at what you do, and what's more, you manage to be funny about it without any bathos. Well, I said that. Now back to listening to the rest of the video.

[@LashknifeTalon]

In academic papers/books, I believe that's what we would call a footnote, or an appendix.

[@samrevlej9331]

@@LashknifeTalon I’m writing my master’s thesis and this just sent me down a spiral about how I don’t have enough research to substantiate my non-source-based claims. Sorry, that was probably really random and incomprehensible to people who didn’t go into research.

[@kilotun8316]

About two seconds after Red defined what Bathos was, I was like "ah, this is going to involve every single modern Marvel movie".

[@andrewgreeb916]

The older ones honestly barely had bathos, it's more like the newer ones got infested with it.

[@bluesbest1]

@@andrewgreeb916 Just another reason why Phase 1 was the best part of the MCU and why I hated every moment of every Guardians movie I watched, as well as Thor 3.

[@seasnaill2589]

@@bluesbest1 See I liked both of those movies because it was very clear that was the *style* they were going for. Guardians is a movie about a bunch of goofballs, and Thor opening with the fourth wall breaking monologue made it easy not to take it seriousely. The bathos infecting every other movie afterwards like a parasite though, *that* is an abomination absolutely.

[@bluesbest1]

@@seasnaill2589 "Hey, people seemed to like this movie a lot! Let's learn the worst lessons possible from our analyses of their reaction!"

[@kingofdragons7]

​@@andrewgreeb916 well, they're fanbase are kids so it's understandable

[@smoldragon339]

One thing I hate about memes is how often they can retroactively turn serious moments into bathos, thus ruining perfectly competent writing. For example, I can never watch the "It's not always about the money, Spider-man" scene in Spider-verse without immediately thinking "...it's about DA METS BABY LOVE DA METS"

[@100lovenana]

I agree with you and it surprises me that people aren't talking about this more often. The internet has ruined many heartfelt images and/or scenes by turning them into meme material. One prime example is Mufasa's death. There are plenty of videos out there that use the original clip and audio for comedic purposes, therefore ruining the impact of the original scene when watching the film

[@FrancisR420]

That's all jokes though, or at least all parody. I can't hear a character in a show or movie say "there is no air in space" without thinking "there's an air and space museum" At least the Mets joke only 'ruins' that one very specific scene Also for the record I enjoyed that meme before I saw the movie didn't even make the connection.

[@ikebirchum6591]

See also literally any time a story uses the words "among us", "suspicious", or "imposter"

[@sempersolus5511]

You know the best example of intentional bathos I've ever seen? A _Cyanide and Happiness short._ Spoilers follow: A man is running to catch a bus, but when he finally gets to the door, the driver yells, "Don't get on! If this bus dips below 55 miles per hour, it will explode!" However, instead of ripping off "Speed" for the rest of the short, we instead follow the man, who realizes he's been running at 55 mph for a while and isn't particularly tired. He quickly wins multiple gold medals, achieves fame and fortune, finds true love, and is very happy. Then... A _56_ mph man shows up. The 55 mph man is forgotten almost instantly. His cash flow dries up. He begins to drink. And smash his awards. And smash his wife. One day, he wakes up, and he has nothing left. He faces a brick wall, closes his eyes... And _runs._ He was wrong about being forgotten. Many people come to his funeral. Even his ex-wife is here, with her new family in tow. Hell, look, there's that bus driver from the beginning of the-- *_KABOOM_*

[@atlassolid5946]

i thought it was that his life fell apart after he decided to run in the Indy 500 and lost

[@sempersolus5511]

​​​@@atlassolid5946 Yep. That rings a bell. And his wife is against it because racecars go faster than 55 mph. But he's on top of the world and feeling invincible. Yeah. But considering I recited the entire plot from memory, I did okay.

[@atlassolid5946]

@@sempersolus5511 honestly, yeah. im reciting it from memory myself. i forgot the part about the funeral.

[@Ditidos]

It's funny, written like this it sounds like a joke. Like an actual old joke people told when the internet was young and before than.

[@Stratonetic]

​​@@DitidosI never thought the day where I was called old would be so soon. lol Hasn't C&H been around for like a decade?

[@Cactus_Rat]

"Vulnerability is scary, and on some level, telling a story you care deeply about is a bit like tearing your heart out and submitting it for peer review." Damn. Sum up every anxiety I have whenever I try to write something.

[@magusred]

"Self-deprecating humor is really only funny to the people that are comfortable deprecating you, and uncomfortable to everyone else." -Red This is something I've been trying to put into words for a long time. Thank you, Red!

[@clydesdale1775]

For me personally, this is the *most helpful* episode you've done. I had no idea that the reason my scripts have been feeling weak is because I have been using bathos accidentally in avoidance of sincerity. I appreciate the honesty, it is a skill issue! 💓🌿

[@BoojumFed]

Skill issues are fixed with practice; it's arrogance/ obliviousness issues where you don't recognize your own weaknesses that are fatal. ;^)

[@ThatNutmegGirl]

I think this is one of the reasons I'm a musical theater fan... it's basically impossible to have a huge belting emotional song if the writer is insincere with their emotions, so almost all great musical theater is more likely to be painfully genuine than sarcastic and distant (looking you in your painfully sincere eyes Orpheus)

[@merrittanimation7721]

And why a lot of adaptations fall flat because they tone down the sincerity to reach a wider audience.

[@ravenwilder4099]

Counterpoint: Reefer Madness the Musical

[@newtypealpha]

Yup Sweeny Todd: * Completes the final stage of his transformation into a homicidal maniac with a completely epic orchestral suite and lyrics full of rage and despair* Ms. Lovitt: "Okay. Great. What about dead guy in the trunk?" Todd: "Aw crap..."

[@kingofdragons7]

I hate musicals

[@wordforger]

...The entire soundtrack of Spamalot?

[@PeanutStrawberry]

5:57 reminds me when Cpt Ed Mercer joked about his infiltration mission into a Krill ship, and when Kelly pointed it's no time to joke... "Yeah, I'm scared shitless, why do you think I'm trying to lighten the mood?" The Orville has really this weird but effective balance between sincerity and comedy. Hope we get a season 4 😢

[@overseerpjoe9477]

There was a Yu-Gi-Oh fanfic series that I really enjoyed back in the day called Shadowchasers, and the main characters were always ready with a quip of some sort (kinda like modern MCU, now that I think on it.) A villain called one of them out on it eventually, and the hero just told them "Hey, I fight dangerous people like you daily. If I didn't joke all the time I would go crazy."

[@rubyamateurtactician4354]

I think I've got an example. Recently I got to watch a production of Cats for the 1st time (an actual theater production, thank goodness.) We were neck-deep in the 1st song, settling ourselves in the world building, when a long dramatic note was suddenly cut short by the sound of a giant prop shoe hitting the stage. At which point I was reminded that this highly acclaimed work of theater craft is about a bunch of cats "singing" their lungs out in a junkyard in the middle of the night. And it was hilarious. Good tone-setter too, Cats is a weird show.

[@TheSYLOH]

I love you brought up the Hunter unmasked / Luz kiss subversion from The Owl House. That is a perfect example of Bathos employed correctly. Prior to this The Golden Guard was supposed to be a threat. But that entire episode was focused on bursting that mystique. We lost a stereotypical villain and that smack was the fist step in gaining a grounded relatable character. He isn't a hypercritical Darth Vader character, he's a traumatized kid, and we want to root for him.

[@lckaboom6810]

The Owl House is really good at handling Bathos in general. Especially considering it’s a comedy show, it’s genuine emotional moments are very rarely undercut by a bad joke.

[@nowherels64]

I got so happy when you used Leverage for that example, the characters manage to come off as cool and great at their jobs while still caring deeply about the situations they're in (and it's one of my favourite shows!)

[@biketickler65]

I love baths!

[@exavier5616]

I like baths so hot I look like a lobster when I get out.

[@breadg1818]

Same

[@quagsire413]

i dont have a bath :/ (i have a shower tho so im not that smelly)

[@javierhenriquez7927]

I prefer cold water

[@Great_Olaf5]

Same

[@SylverMage]

Can I say how much I love that most of the 'good' examples are from Into the Spiderverse? I was nearly comatose from laughter in the theatre, but the 'what's up danger' scene still gives me chills.

[@glanni]

"Do you know why a ship floats and a stone cannot? Because the stone sees only downward. The darkness of the water is vast and irresistible. The ship feels the darkness, as well, striving moment by moment to master her and pull her under. But the ship has a secret. For, unlike the stone, her gaze is not downward but up. Fixed upon the light that guides her, whispering of grander things than darkness ever knew."

[@theflyinggoldfish3526]

The thing that’s amazing about Bathos is that, if done well, by undercutting a possibly impactful moment with incompetence, indifference from other characters, or just plain bad luck, it can greatly increase the impact of a later moment in which the climax actually follows through. Spider verse is a perfect example of this. Miles’ Bathos failure the first time he jumped off a building just made it even more amazing when he was able to actually do it! I can comfortably say “What’s Up Danger” was one of the most memorable moments in any movie I’ve ever seen and it’s the payoff from not only his badass powers and the buildup from previous scenes but also from his comedic failures early on. It was like “yeah he was kinda goofy back then… but NOW LOOK AT HIM”

[@5peciesunkn0wn]

Definitely one of the funniest scenes of the movie too.

[@kx4998]

it also shows that miles is not ready to be spider man and needs help in growing and becoming spider man

[@justanotherchannelonyoutub126]

One of the best examples of Bathos I can think of is in the first campaign of Critical Role *Spoilers* Towards the end of the campaign, Scanlan decides to leave the group because he doesn’t feel appreciated by them for all the work he’s done, and it’s something that hits everyone in the group hard. During the scene, all the characters leave the room (described in the story), and Sam (Scanlan’s player) jokes about how they’re all just walking to the room next door. It’s a great scene because it lets everyone know that Sam is just role playing the serious stuff and doesn’t really harbor any Ill will towards the rest of the table. It’s a moment of relief in a really tense situation

[@alex1.23]

They're all amazing at this, but Sam especially is a master at knowing exactly when to interject with a hint of comedy

[@Kris-wo4pj]

@@alex1.23 he makes ya wanna punch him with every character twist. i think Liam almost did punch him for real with the Nott twist.

[@mickey4125]

Dude Scanlan's melt down FUCKING DESTROYED ME. WHAT WAS HER NAME??? 😭😭

[@Kris-wo4pj]

@@mickey4125 that damn question is now an on going joke. Its kinda bittersweet.

[@annakrawczuk5221]

I've never watched main CR campaigns, but Sam seems to be absolutely amazing at this type of thing- I remember a scene in Calamity, when SPOILER After making the very heartfelt, beautiful, brave announcement to the city in the middle of the Calamity, he ended it with the smoothest transition to in-universe product placement. "And remember the Market of Wonders". In the post-game wrap up, someone said it best- it was the perfect joke, because not only was it funny as all hell, completely in character, but also did not diminish any of the impact of things he said right before, but actually elevated it. Loved that moment. Honestly surprised it wasn't in the vid, since Calamity appeared in a Trope Talk before

[@LizardOfOz]

During the Force Awakens' final scene of Rey handling the lightsaber to Luke, I was like "should I take this moment seriously or will he throw it off in the next movie?" Which is worse: modern media pre-conditioning us to not take things seriously, or Luke *actually* throwing it off?

[@careydaniels310]

I honestly think a good example of something that balances the comedy of Bathos with sincerity is s3 of DBZ Abridged, in the creator commentaries, they talk about how they wanted to "let the cool moments BE cool" and only add the comedy after the fact, and the raw sincerity of the events in the 3-part finale makes it so much more re watchable than if they undercut everything with a joke. Even giving "joke" characters genuine moments contrasted by the rest of their performance is such a breath of fresh air in an already excellent finale.

[@jbark678]

Vegeta saying, "I'm sorry" to Gohan hit different.

[@Joe-nh8eq]

DBZA is also a great example of bad bathos. DBZA got funnier as the creators felt more confident in writing serious moments as serious.

[@Mr.Maguro]

Since DBZA is a gag dub I'm not sure... What you say is definetly true in the Cell Saga, but most of the series was a parody of the original.

[@shika15]

The fact that we’ve reached a point where pure sincerity is the more nuanced thing to do is…. dark.

[@SonofSethoitae]

...not really? What's dark about sincerity?

[@SubZero-wb1lw]

@@SonofSethoitae they’re saying the fact is dark

[@EleiyaUmei]

@@SonofSethoitae they didn't mean the sincerity being dark but the development (sincerity having become the more nuanced thing to do)

[@9nikola]

@@SonofSethoitae It's the _lack_ of sincerity that's dark.

[@grandpagohan1]

I agree. But I also find that we've reached the point where jokes and humor, usually a way to make the audience laugh and be happy, are now seen as negative, even when in the context of a comedy. And frankly, that's depressing.

[@glanni]

15:38 That scene between Gimli and Legolas is my favorite bit that wasn't in the movies. It's one of the few scenes I distinctly remember from reading the books as a teenager, and it kind of changed my thinking a bit.

[@optichris]

Bathos is interesting because media has a sort of balancing act with how seriously it takes itself. Red used the "Swear to me" scene as an example of unintended bathos, and there was a lot of that during that period of cinema where the movies took themselves a little too seriously, the real era of gritty reboots. Then, as the MCU started, especially by the time we got to the first Avengers movies, things started to get quippier, which I remember a lot of people finding as a nice breath of fresh air from the overly dramatic. Now it definitely feels like with a lot of mainstream media scales have tipped too far in the bathos side of seriousness, and audiences are starting to push back again. Red's main point is very well stated, it's about finding the right measure, timing, and theming for bathos to hit right.

[@madskristiansen]

I think that Gimli's interpretation in the movies made both him and the dwarven fantasy race so popular to modern fans. We saw the movies as kids,and Gimli was the funny, short and eccentric guy, but he was still a badass fighting machine. The combo of goofiness, working man fighter is to me the very reason why fantasy dwarves are appealing.

[@TheOmaga13]

Over the garden wall's final confrontation is one of my all time favourites. I love that ending so much.

[@ojrmk1]

Douglas Adams was a master of Bathos "The huge yellow somethings hung in the air exactly the way bricks don't"

[@egoalter1276]

Hitchhikers guide is simultaneously both incredibly nihilistic, but also tells you to have fun regardless. The key is to realize you were never supposed to care about Arthur Dent. He is a bad rolemodel. The real protagonist is Zaphod.

[@floraidh4097]

I have always felt that Galaxy Quest is one of the best at using that keeping sincerity while still being funny. When they press the abort button and it doesn't stop and they look at each other and they can't find the words to say as they think they'll die and then it stops and they laugh because the countdown always stops at 1. The same with Alan Rickman's Grabthar's hammer moment, it's all very sincere and then the sincerity helps the next joke land even better.

[@dmgroberts5471]

It helps that they're massively out of their depth, fully expect to die any second, and are only holding their nerve at all because in showbiz, that's what you _do_ when things go wrong. The jokes are only funny because we know it's a comedy; in universe it's all either stress-induced bickering, or increasingly desperate gallows humour. My favourite moment is when Alan Rickman storms off "to see if there's a Pub." I think he must have either come up with that line himself, or tweaked it, because that's a perfectly British reaction to everything going to shit.

[@DarthRayj]

I think this very prominent trend is part of why Arcane hit so hard. Does it include moments of bathos? Yeah, for sure! But it's more often sincere. It also has a very consistent pattern of setting something up, and then either just fulfilling it more or less as expected, or fulfilling it in a way that is far *more* emotional than expected, and never less. When it does use twists, which it does quite a lot, they pretty much universally intensify the story rather than undercutting it. The characters also are *all* sincere to their own characterization and worldviews, but they all have *different* things they're sincere to, which is what all the conflict is built on. I do think that the positive reaction to Arcane and other more sincere media that's come out recently shows that the scales of sincerity to insincerity may be balancing a little bit, which I think is a good thing.

[@timothymclean]

3:00: I don't know why "for TV Tropes reasons" as an explanation made me crack up, but it did. TV Tropes coined _so_ many idiosyncratic terms that bled into surrounding corners of the internet, divorced from their original contexts.

[@thomasallen9974]

TV Tropes is a magical place on the internet

[@gota7738]

Kind of hoping that if Red ever covers The Starscream she keeps the trope name and tries to use as many different versions of Starscream for different versions of the archetype. I think it would be funny.

[@thomasallen9974]

@@gota7738 Ah yes, gotta cover the trope of the Starscream to the Starscream incident

[@ShyGuy1347]

Another example of good bathos is in the owl house finale. Luz has a dramatic dialogue "child of the human realm, student of the demon realm", and then "undercuts" that with "now eat this sucka". But the drama is preserved, and like red said, we got to see both the comedy and the final battle. It also serves as a callback, showing we've come full circle.

[@sylibane9811]

I think it also works because it lets Luz be herself at her moment of triumph. For the whole series, she's struggling with being her goofy, fantasy-loving self, so having her yelling a ridiculous line from her favorite book while bringing down a villain who represents wanting to destroy anything outside its definition of normal fits perfectly.

[@OverlyPositiveFanboy]

"NOW EAT THIS SUCKA!" was the moment that made me fall in love with the show, so obviously I felt the full emotional impact of it's use in the finale.

[@5peciesunkn0wn]

I really need to watch The Owl House...

[@leyvadira]

This made me remember one of my favorite moments from Mob Psycho 100, when it seems that our protagonist is gonna have an epic fight with this powerful villain but then the punchline is that Reigen, the person with no powers, just caughts him off guard and suddenly beats him up lol

[@HardCodedGaming]

D&D Honor Among Thieves is a fantastic case study on this, one that might be worth revisiting on its own. I was expecting a punchline during Chris Pine's backstory early on (a lot like Red's Arwen example), but once you learn what the film is taking seriously and what it's willing to joke about, the stuff that's sincere is pretty effective. It stays consistent like that, and doesn't fake you out during the serious moments. Conversely, the bridge puzzle scene is so obviously going to be de-railed, but the anticlimax of it makes another obstacle the heroes have to deal with, creating a new conflict rather than sidestepping one.

[@daviddaugherty2816]

What's interesting about that is that this, along with so many other things in that movie, reflects how people really play D&D. Backstories usually are kept pretty serious, despite how quippy the character might be played.

[@rdr1973]

That whole movie was…. Underwhelming. It was full of bathos of ever variety, unintentional, intentional. I left the theater feeling so defeated that it was so… underwritten. It was as bland a movie you could possibly make. It has no horrible traits, but nothing was really good either. It was a thoroughly competent movie. It had no like, great elements. The villain was mid, The plot was mid The action was mid The stakes were constantly undercut I don’t think any of the characters cared about their own lives….

[@Widdershyn]

This sort of thing was precisely why I enjoyed the D&D Honor Among Thieves movie, and also was so nervous going into it. There was a genuine potential from the trailer that it'd be more along the lines of Guardians of the Galaxy, and yet while there's a lot of humor, it's also got sincerity. Feels more like the balance in Kung Fu Panda

[@ajdynon]

A lot of people have compared the D&D movie to the MCU, but I did see one review which pointed out that it actually took a lot of cues from Ghostbusters. In Ghostbusters, the writers made sure there was one thing that was NOT made fun of - the idea of the supernatural. Likewise, the D&D movie made sure that the idea of magic and monsters existing was played seriously.

[@Punishthefalse]

​@@ajdynon In Honor Among Thieves, the world and the main plot is taken seriously. Everything else is your typical D&D campaign.

[@ajdynon]

@@Punishthefalse That's probably a better way of putting it.

[@justsomejerseydevilwithint4606]

15:08 Honestly, I think marry and pippin being high as a Nazgul Fellbeast would be GREAT comic relief for tense situations. Imagine Frodo and Samwise beleaguredly following smeagle up mount doom, not knowing who to trust, and it cuts to Pippin hallucinating like an 80's rock show audience

[@SamBrockmann]

You realize that, in the books, that's how Merry (it's spelled with an 'e', not an 'a') and Pippin were depicted for much of the story. They're not taking anything seriously, because they can't. They're naive. And then, when Pippin looks into the Palantir, it's a major character development for him.

[@mathnerd97]

Counterpoint on the Gimli thing, the fact of him being comic relief makes his sincere moments land harder. Since there's the impact of "even he's not joking now"

[@Rainears129]

In my current watercolor class, a fellow student likes to comment on how a painting makes her feel, like if there's a particularly strong emotion, or if the painting can get her to feel something like a physical sensation. Another student has done studies and has been recreating this one portrait of his wife all semester. And both my regular teacher and the sub we had at the time understood why I didn't finish this self-portrait I did because I was not in the mood for a light-hearted and silly painting after getting the news my dog had kidney failure and had to be put down a week before my birthday. And during our critiques, our teacher encourages us to say what we like, what we think can be improved, and what we learned while making the paintings, as well as ask for advice, both from our teacher, but also from our peers. The point is, my art class fully supports sincerity, and I honestly think many different mediums would benefit from following its example, as well as if more people would just ask "How can I improve this?" both of yourself and others

[@Levsa399]

This is why I love Lord of the Rings! It’s so beautiful in its sincerity and the humorous moments stand out all the more because of it.

[@kennyholmes5196]

And the joking moments make the sincere ones hit that much harder because of the "oh, the funny man's not joking around. Oh dear." factor.

[@SirCowduck]

5:50 Oh my gosh, THIS. This is exactly the point in Ragnarok that ticked me off the most for exactly what you're saying, and it was the main thing I didn't like about it even when everyone was praising it. If you keep undercutting all the dramatic moments, it stops being subversive and starts being expected.

[@jacobmonti453]

I know exactly which scene you’re talking about. Have Thor shed a tear or look stoically at Asgard instead of blue rock boy trying to make a funny at the literal emotional climax of the movie.

[@lindseylindsey9200]

@@jacobmonti453​​⁠ Alternatively, do a funny that fits the themes of the movie- maybe have him stare at the remains of Asgard, about to get lost in his emotions, and have it be interrupted by something silly- a kid getting really excited over the cool spaceship and running around asking questions, not quite realizing the severity of the situation, or someone’s stomach rumbling and them asking “uhh this place has food right” and someone else gives them some snack they had on hand, or a grandma asking “wait what happened to Asgard” because her sight isn’t what it used to be, and he smiles wistfully and realizes that this is why they had to destroy Asgard the location, for the sake of Asgard’s people. The little kids still so full of wonder and joy, the complete strangers who share what little they may have with each other, the elderly who have lived through so much and have earned the right to spend the rest of their days in peace, all of them are still here and still alive and are going to be okay, and that’s worth so, so much more

[@cewla3348]

@@lindseylindsey9200bathos the bathos! undercut the undercutting, it zooms out to asgardians cheering that they did it, they lived. it goes to the elderly wondering why everyone’s happy. it goes to children being amazed by the big spaceship.

[@carolinemcgovern4488]

@@lindseylindsey9200 I think what you wrote would actually be a lot more impactful- like come on.

[@renjoku3771]

The fact that they were able to make this video after streaming several hours of them playing Breath of the Wild for a fundraiser is both concerning and impressive to me. The OSP work ethic is truly a sight to behold

[@YourBlackLocal]

What? Do you think they literally sat down and recorded straight after? It was probably finished before the fundraiser. It obviously had to be edited.

[@l.o.b.2433]

(This comment, especially the term "work ethic", gets a lot funnier once you listened to Red describing her work process in the podcast a couple of times)

[@just_that_girl3873]

Yeah videos are usually done/planned months in advance

[@nathanandsugar5252]

@@l.o.b.2433 powered by insomnia lol

[@Guest_1300]

lol they have 2 weeks each to make videos, you think she's recording this the night before?

[@KingZolem]

Guradians of the Galexy, which you included in the thumb but didn’t discuss, is also a good Bathos. Because what they substitute at the end there? Was the villian winning and destroying a planet full of innocent people. And they picked a good method to do it because there was nothing stopping them from interrupting the villain with the shot and going "Gun's done!" Instead Star Lord starts dancing, confusing the villain to ask what he is doing. The hero claims he is challenging him to a dance off and the villian is flabbergasted like "you actually expect that to work?" And then the hero reveals no they were just distracting him and buying time for the gun to be finished. So it's still the same "villain's triumph is cut short" cost, but the payoff isn't "gun done in nick of time" it was "hero managed to outwit and dtall the villian to pull off the win". Following it up with actual pathos afterwards with the infinity stone scene just made it work more.

[@animeotaku307]

Same with Mantis getting hit with debris in volume 2. Sure, it undercuts a sweeping scene with our heroes, but because she was the one suppressing Ego it quickly turns into an “oh no!” moment.

[@iantaakalla8180]

There is also the infamous “you killed my mom and destroyed my Walkman” moment, which is a funny thing to say but in the end of the day he basically is saying he can’t even connect with her memories anymore and he also made it impossible to be with his mom, so he never cared about him. It is a very powerful refutal of Ego’s care of Quill.

[@SuperCatPrincess]

I think there's a type of bathos that purposely gives the audience an "oh no" feeling and is a good thing. It's mainly found in stories that initially have a nihilistic tone and the ultimate message is that a nihilistic attitude is unproductive and living life is a good thing. For example, the moment in Everything Everywhere All At Once where Evelyn is first facing Jobu and accidentally shifts into the hot dog finger universe is both comedic and gives the audience that sinking feeling of "oh no, she's really in trouble". It's more interesting and it also serves to show that Evelyn is nowhere near experienced enough to be dealing with Jobu. Basically it's the "protagonist doesn't actually take this situation seriously" kind but for the villain.