PA28 Engine overhaul - The Flying Reporter

[@stewartwilkinsonsnr]

Again a video that gives you insight to not just flying but what happens when the aircrafts engine needs attention, For me Jon it’s these videos that makes your channel stand out from others. What better way to get answers to questions from subscribers than go visit those who can not only give those answers but are kind enough to show you around. One thing really impressed me, that was how clean the Engine Stripping Bay was, and the documenting process. Even there Pilots Safety was observed for when the engine will be re-assembled. Look forward to you return visit to a very Professional Company. ✈️

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks Stewart. I was very impressed.

[@N101DW]

This is a really interesting video. A whole new insight into a part of flying we all think about in dark moments!

[@TheFroztv]

Very instructive !! Grenat content as usual !

[@iadunn]

Nigel you appeared (or were audible in NW101DW) in one of Jons videos when he did a SVFR through Stansted

[@N101DW]

@@iadunn So I heard. I was on my way to Charleroi climbing up into airways courtesy of Essex Radar. Now I need to start making my own videos again!

[@petermelillo6524]

Been there done that! It's a good feeling when you're flying behind an engine that has been rebuilt. Great video!

[@nigelpage9227]

Very interesting Jon. Even as the Grounded Reporter you're still producing great material!

[@TheFlyingReporter]

I handy thought of changing my name during this layover!

[@martenareskoug7997]

The Flying Reporter Is there another aircraft that you can fly during the overhaul? Always good to stay current and we sure need a few flying videos to watch during the winter ;)

[@BOLIPILOT1]

Great video as always Jon and nice to see some of the great work that goes on to keep us all enjoying our hobby. Very reassuring to see the detail and level gone into in this process. We all know it's a very careful process but to see it documented this way is great. Look forward to watching the rebuild in the new year.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

I'll keep you updated.

[@ckukmale898]

Thanks Jon, great video showing the other side of your flying journals. Sorry that you and your group have had to go through all this but at least a positive is that you got to do these videos because of it, as it is a part of your flying life journey. Hope to see you flying in the skies soon.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks so much.

[@mikevonkleist6767]

These boxer engines are an amazing engineering and design. One hundred years of keeping a machine in the air. Before then, we could only dream about it. Very impressive video. In the good hands of an expert engine mechanic, these engines live forever.

[@Jwood737]

Excellent Video Jon. Looking forward to seeing the rebuild/testing in the next videos. At least you can make something positive out of a frustrating and expensive situation!

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks James.

[@pauljohn8983]

A fascinating insight into the overhaul process, Jon. The thoroughness and professionalism of Dean and his team is very reassuring!

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks for watching Paul.

[@stuartessex4535]

Hi Jon, Absolutely fascinating! As always thank you for your hard work in bringing us such great videos. I knew rebuilds where thorough but didn't realise how thorough. Very interesting and informative and looking forward to seeing the engine going back together!

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks Stuart.

[@Barabyk]

Jon, thanks for another great insight into not so obvious side of flying. I loved the pace of the video, not a second wasted. Looking forward to follow up on the story!

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Glad you liked the video.

[@johnnorris4467]

Very interesting, informative viewing. Thanks for making this. An impressive tribute, too, to Nicholson McLaren.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Glad you enjoyed the film John.

[@tywheeler7131]

Really neat video of the whole process. Thanks for sharing

[@alexhoed]

Great to let us see this Jon...thanks

[@BenBrownAviation]

Fantastic video, really interesting to see all the hard work that goes into the overhauls. Certainly explains the large bills at the end.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thansk Ben.

[@stuart_walsh]

Wow, fascinating. Thanks so much for making this video and the insight. A quality production as always!

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Cheers Stuart.

[@Tom_YouTube_stole_my_handle]

That was fascinating and accessible to someone with only the basic knowledge of what's inside the engine.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

That describes me Tom, so pleased it made sense to you.

[@kevchilton908]

A really interesting video Jon. And a great idea to follow through what actually happens when an engine goes away to be worked on. It all adds great variation and content to your channel.

[@drewtuley]

Fascinating video Jon, especially as we're going through a similar process with our engine (although we're now at 4 months waiting). I suspect making this was a bit of a busman's holiday for you with the added bonus of being something that you're personally invested in. Can't wait for part 2.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks Andrew. Yes, very interesting visit.

[@David_seersy]

Great video! One of our engines just went through overhaul for the same reason so it’s great to see what went on behind the scenes.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks David.

[@woody5248]

Great video John. This demonstrates that engines should be run regularly and thoroughly warmed to working temp. This will help keep the parts lubricated and remove acid contaminants from the oil by boiling them off.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Exactly.

[@darrenhillman8396]

Absolutely fascinating, Jon! More, please! If you get the scrap crankshaft to keep, you could have it on your coffee table..! Looking forward to the next update.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

I would if I had room in my house!

[@ShaneFleming]

I agree with everyone else here. That was fascinating. It's always interesting to see the inside of an engine. At least you'll have a brand new engine out of it.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks for watching Shane.

[@erikdelamarter8625]

Wow, great video. As a fellow (Piper) pilot I really appreciate it. Thanks to Dean and colleagues for the tour.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks for watching Erik.

[@mickeydefrance]

Who the hell gave a thumbs down??You can see you work in the industry John (TV) .That was really interesting and well put together Thanks Mick

[@TheFlyingReporter]

thanks Mick.

[@christopherwilson6527]

Brilliant video! So glad you did this and thanks to the team for allowing the filming of the process. Seem like a very professional bunch. There is a video somewhere showing why an overhaul engine is better that a factory new and proves it really well. Could be worth a view if you find it. Check out camguard oil additive too

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks Christopher.

[@francoissteiner3542]

Very interesting video. Learnt more than during any ground school!

[@paulgriffin2598]

I think the feedback you have got reflects my views too. Very interesting.

[@dereksanders7905]

Thank you Jon for such an interesting and insightful video!

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Cheers Derek.

[@R2robot]

I didn't expect the pistons to be as massive as they are.

[@gasfiltered]

It's 5.3 L in only 4 cylinders,. Even when you know that, they still seem comically large.

[@superjeffcentola4945]

15:43 damn that oil pump housing is toast!

[@garywheeler2055]

I just discovered your channel, love it...... cheers from the colony. Canada 🇨🇦

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks for tuning in!

[@richardirvine]

Great video Jon. Very insightful. Good luck with the rebuild

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Cheers Richard.

[@justadroid]

Quality content, very interesting. Thankyou

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Pleasure.

[@dontbother665]

Great production again Jon! I do believe this issue has been responsible for a very serious accident in the past. I could be wrong. Very sobering to watch this having read the aaib report on G-AVRP. Be safe and happy flying.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Agree, that's a very sobering report.

[@davep5829]

A really interesting video, what a fascinating (and expensive) process.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks Dave.

[@seanmcerlean]

Great video Jon.Fascinating

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks for watching Sean.

[@RedArrow73]

Here's a Topic, Jon: Laser Cleaning of engine parts, something engine manufacturers would not approve willy-nilly, however, proponents say it is much easier on the environment. Consider going round the shops and asking how much of a given engine is approved for Laser cleaning and whether other benefits are realised, as well as what risks were uncovered.

[@jpmochan]

Very informative, explains a lot.

[@brucefox6580]

Informative. And thanks to Dean for the tour!

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Glad you enjoyed this.

[@jerseyscampi]

Now I can see what mine went through. Fascinating

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Isn't it!

[@thefrog2009]

Fascinating - I learned a lot!

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Brill!

[@dennishickman6128]

Hi Jon thank you so much for sharing that. Very interesting, Obviously this is going to have an impact on costs but at the end of the day your engine will be as good as new, or better! Cheers.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks Dennis.

[@flyingphobiahelp]

Sooo glad you decided to overhaul your engine. Also great (and much appreciated) video since I've never visited an engine overhaul facility. The 2 months turn around time doesn't sound bad. Our flying club Saratoga took over 4 months+ but longer time might be related to it being turbocharged. On a related note I wonder why we in GA don't make more use of turbine engines -way less vibration and consequently less maintenance and higher TBOs. I'm guessing that their economy depends on their fuel efficiency at high altitude-conversely gas guzzlers lower than 20000 ft-not much sense for a 100 nm hop.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks Douglas. Cost, I suspect.

[@nitropete5]

Good video. These guys are great at what they do

[@simondearing7408]

Great content John. Very interesting.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Cheers Simon.

[@Rblazer]

Nobody has mentioned that giant crankshaft sitting behind them! That thing is massive!

[@wayneschenk5512]

Good workshop

[@garywheeler2055]

Amazing insight into aircraft engines 👍

[@MrSixstring2k]

Wow..great episode, sad the bill is adding up but great and informative episode.

[@karmaramamusic7320]

Great and informative video, thanks Jon!

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks for watching.

[@dreworoirden7675]

As someone who worked for Perkins Engines as an apprentice the claim that the damage is typical of 50 hours flying was a little bit of a shock. The chap then said your overhaul could be good for 2000 hours was very reassuring. If the problem with the crankshaft is the absence of oil at startup for a few milliseconds over so many hours, does the startup procedure need to be addressed ? This poses many questions for me when looking to buying into a share of a plane. Many thanks as always for your detailed vlogs from the pilots point of view and the problems and normal operating costs that occur. Happy and safe flying.

[@christopherwilson6527]

The oil draines back into the sump and when an engine is left for days or weeks unused, the cam lobes, valve tappets and a lot of internal parts end up with no oil on them and dry up. Any moisture in the air, like the rainy britain we have, will then start to corrode the exposed dry metal. That corrosion and dry parts then rub together on the engines first start. Imagine starting and engine with no oil at all, thats pretty much what happens in the first few seconds. Engines need to be used frequently for at least an hour to burn off excess fuel and water in the oil.

[@dreworoirden7675]

Is this why lessons are an hour long?

[@Sterlingjob]

I believe you can pre oil an engine, which if it has been sat around would be useful!

[@DMC888]

The comment about 50 hours confused me. Was that 50 hours between the used valve shown looking like the corroded valve, or 50 hours from new to corroded? I know he said the reconditioned engine was good for 2000 hours, but I’ve also heard you mention a top end overhaul.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

He says that the damage done to the engine has occurred in the last 50 hours. So corrosion reached a critical point, where it wore down very quickly.

[@jdavis460]

Very interesting indeed but would really like to know some of the costs. (Not yours I’m not that nosey) Cost of a new engine and or an average overhaul.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

You can get an estimate near the £20,000 mark, and it can end up costing you double! It's a how much is a piece of string situation to be honest.

[@kestrel5065]

Not good news for you Jon but an excellent video. As a mechanical idiot, I thought it was great. Keep us up to speed!

[@TheFlyingReporter]

We're in the same camp there Kestrel.

[@tune7333]

Really interesting and makes me think of old warbird engines that a need a squirt of oil before startup....

[@neomatrix3612]

Now I can see why the GA maintenance costs are so high..

[@1glopz]

Cold start rev it up high before your pressure goes up and this id what happens ???

[@MassimilianoChiani]

May I ask the price for this ? I have a PA28 200 Arrow II so may be intersting to know

[@TheFlyingReporter]

About £25k

[@jsteiger2228]

Is CamGuard oil additive available in the UK? People in the US swear by it for preventing the exact issue you have here.

[@marvinsmith4322]

Thanks for the very detailed look at the behind the scenes work involved in an engine overhaul. Really informative, shame it was something that was effectively forced upon you to produce.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Pleasure Marvin.

[@jayfarj1665]

Wonder what GA piston engine failure rate would be like if Honda designed and built powerplants

[@jdotsalter910]

This ain’t cars brother. Lycoming is the Honda of this world.

[@andydonaldson5593]

Enjoyed that. Not sure if this has been asked already, but how did you find out it was shot? Standard check catch it ?

[@TheFlyingReporter]

My website has a couple of write ups, but went in for the annual, compressions down, tapped the valves, disturbed some soot, compressions back up, cylinder off owing to a AD on the valve guides, worn lobe spotted. I think that’s basically it.

[@MarkNewtonFlies]

Are you at the point where it’d be cheaper and quicker to acquire an overhauled engine?

[@petermontgomery6498]

Lycoming currently state that they will take an engine in ANY condition in exchange for a factory engine (don't forget that 'factory' comes in multiple condition options...). As soon as you need a new crank you are better off going this route both financially and end product wise. A reworked crankcase is NOT as good as new. It is not an 'upgraded' case as suggested here but is very much repaired and they often come back extensively welded and with multiple measurement on the max limits for service. In fact Lycoming say you cannot do it, it is just a loophole of the FAA system that the FAA have given third party companies permission to do it. It is a great option in some situations so not to be discounted altogether but this engine in the bigger picture would have been better being factory exchanged.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Part of the problem is, to have reached this point, you have already spent ££££££. To start from scratch would not be economical.

[@marknewton1884]

@@TheFlyingReporter Yeah, it's a wicked problem, isn't it. Spend so much money tearing it down that by the time you've found out what's wrong you've already spent the cash needed to replace it. You might be able to acquire a zero time or low time replacement and sell your core to recoup some of the cost; but I'm guessing you've already considered that. The O-320 in my RV-6 has 1730 hours on it (still giving 77's and 78's on compression checks!), and at my current rate of flying it'll be up for overhaul in a bit over two years. I can get a completely new engine at OEM pricing from Vans, so I figure if literally anything happens at all to degrade the engine, I've already accepted the replacement cost and will pull the trigger on a factory replacement right away :-) The newer Lycomings have roller tappets which don't degrade the way yours have, by the way. I'm sure they have other failure modes, but at least that one has been rendered moot.

[@steveknight4090]

So if I am understanding correctly the life of a PA28 engine is 50hrs from a decent rebuilt engine to worn out like that one. That doesn't sound good.

[@NDCDA62]

A very interesting video. Given the safety aspects involved, I would be opting for a new engine.

[@forfengeligfaen]

So how much does an engine overhaul cost?

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Depends...but the whole process is going to cost us between £26,000 and £30,000

[@BruceDuncan]

So the takeaway is that the camshaft is poorly designed... I hope they had a really good reason for putting it above the crankshaft instead of below, next to the oil!

[@Sterlingjob]

Bruce Duncan The engine is life expired, 2200 hours is quite a few years in the sky.

[@BruceDuncan]

@@Sterlingjob that's true but if it had done fewer hours over the same time it would be in a worse condition because the camshaft is not being adequately lubricated!

[@DMC888]

I thought that all cam shafts were above the crank. It’s the same for all internal combustion engines surely?

[@BruceDuncan]

@@DMC888 I'm not an engineer, but it's a horizontally-opposed engine so the cams could go either above or below the cylinder heads. In fact I believe Continental engines do mount the camshaft on the bottom. If you were talking about an inline engine then yes the cylinder head is on top so the camshaft has to be on top.

[@marsgal42]

The engineers go to a lot of trouble to make sure the cam lobes and tappets are equally hard. Some engines have had issues with this (e.g. O-320-H2AD), but 99.9999% of the time it works just fine. I use oil in my plane that has additives to reduce cam wear at startup (as specified by Lycoming SI 1409C) and expect many more hours of flying before I too have to pay big bills.

[@Sterlingjob]

Mandatory Service bulletins are not mandatory!

[@marknewton1884]

You'd be foolish to not take care of them while the engine is in bits on the bench, though. There's "cost cutting," and then there's ... something else.

[@Sterlingjob]

Mark Newton as I said they are not mandatory. There maybe damage but is it within limits? And if so how long will it last?

[@rnzoli]

Probably the most expensive video of this channel :( On the contrary to popular belief, flying is not expensive. Taking care of an airplane is.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Very true!

[@MarttiSuomivuori]

That's quite an old design, isn't it?

[@flightsimcentre9244]

Bugger

[@TheFlyingReporter]

uh, huh!

[@MegaJohnhammond]

raise your hand if you'd like to belt Luke in the mouth for no particular reason.

[@thepurpleufo]

What a great video. Every aspect...the topic and the presentation, just brilliant. Thank you.

[@empirecook]

You’re a great interviewer! You give plenty of time to let the person talk, rather than rushing and talking over people.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks Michael.

[@paulhendershott8930]

Great video Jon! Yes I would like to see the follow up video putting her back together. Thanks for keeping it real, it does make sense on the cost - maybe you can get a total man hours when the engine is ready to be reinstalled and share that.

[@john3Lee]

As an engineer, I found that fascinating - Thanks..

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Well, that's a result!

[@sputzelein]

As an engineer too I found it fascinating how outdated this camshaft technology is comparing it to high end car engines. Almost like my old Harley Davidson and that had aready hydraulic lifters. And comparing again to car engines: I`ve never seen these small metal parts collected into the piston side. Isn`t that a massive faulty engine design?

[@superjeffcentola4945]

@@sputzelein these aircraft engines are still better designed than most automobile engines. You know what the FAA makes this things do before they accept an engine design? I forget exactly but they do something like 80 hours max rpm, then 50 hours 3/4. Im not doing the process justice because i forget it. BUT basically the FAA wants to see hundred of hours of engine time with 0 wear. There's a reason only lycoming and teledyne make GA engines! They are the best and getting the FAA to approve another design isn't easy. This isn't a design flaw of the engine because this wear happened from not having the aircraft ran enough.

[@flybe146]

That was really good Jon, can't wait to see the engine in the workshop when its ready to be put back together again.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Me too.

[@belgianquill]

Does your maintenance company use Camguard?

[@RaedZamzam]

Royal Jordanian Air Academy with a good business relationship with Norvic Aero Engines and wish to keep this relationship in continuous

[@oscarpimentel3364]

Very good, THE OILS LUBRICANT OF AIRCRAFTS NEED TO HAVE MAGNETIC FUNCTION FOR SUPLY A GOOD LUBRIFICATION TO COLD START CONDITION.

[@marsgal42]

Just in time for spring. :-) My plane's engine is 1200 hours SMOH (OK) but 27 years (on condition). Some day I'll need to make decisions too...

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Yep, hoping to be back in the air in January....

[@JUSTYH82]

Very informative episode Jon. Thanks

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks JP.

[@jnorwood321]

You’re getting screwed. Better get second opinion starting with a shop there that can mill it. Wow. Welcome to screwyouville.

[@martenareskoug7997]

Brilliant video! I had no idea all those things go on during an overhaul. I learnt loads. It looks like your engine is in very good hands and I’m sure it will be well worth the money spent. I predict your channel will blow up in terms of subscribers during 2019. Such high quality!

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks Marten.

[@mikeyswingsacrossthesky2244]

Wow, that was good! An engine is much more than just a load of fast moving metal keeping us alive. So much to learn about just how engines can talk to us if we listen and understand it may well save us thousandsin costs I guess once your engine is back its performance will feel unbelievable. Thanks to Dean for sharing his knowledge.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks for watching Mike.

[@cavok1984]

As always, a very good episode. Very interesting to see what goes on on an overhaul and the service you're paying for. I can tell it will be worth every penny.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks for the comment Pete.

[@markdoan1472]

Great video , well done

[@aureliomarsili3902]

The workshop looks as clean as an operating room !!!

[@6robertdavey]

Effectively, it IS an operating room. One tiny little bit of grit, in the wrong place, could negate ALL the good work done during a rebuild.

[@mattlong1890]

While on the subject of engines, have you ever thought of completing your MEP Jon? I’d love to see you buzzing around Europe in a PA31. Ive got a soft spot for the Chieftain.

[@simonhughes-king]

YOWZAS that is terrible wear. Would you have flown across the channel if you'd known what was going on in that engine? No wonder some people try using car engines instead. I guess if there was truly a "better way", then we'd be doing it. Or maybe Lycoming and Continental et al are pretty much just sticking with selling what they can get away with because they have the market. But sheesh it never ceases to amaze me how bad these engines can get. And they cost so f** much money! Roll on when electric motors and battery technology can deliver the performance.....

[@TheFlyingReporter]

I don’t think you really need to ask the question!

[@simonhughes-king]

The Flying Reporter. On the other hand, it was running apparently without issue, and without catastrophic failure, so, there you go...

[@garydell2023]

Trying to catch up with your videos. Boy that engine is thrashed but at least you've decided to get it rebuilt. Appreciate the info your presenting even though your 'grounded' temporarily.

[@markgunnison]

I had an engine overhaul on my 1961 Mooney a few years ago. Although it was a financial hit, I do enjoy the plane more how. Annuals are also a lot less painful :-)

[@TheFlyingReporter]

I bet!

[@speedbird01]

John, great production, a link to Dean's shop would be worthy I think

[@gregrsvr3947]

And the quoted price for this repair is ?????

[@networkscotland2656]

Fab video! A reminder why flying is expensive

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks for watching Stephen.

[@OFFROADMAGIC]

Another very interesting video Jon, many thanks

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Thanks for watching Joe.

[@anthonybryantmedia]

Great video Jon. Really informative and helpful to me as a new PA28 owner. Keep up the good work and look forward to more videos.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

New owner, or new pa28 ;)

[@anthonybryantmedia]

The Flying Reporter New owner :-)

[@TimmmehhhPlays]

Great video!! So interesting to see inside the engines and how the overhauls are done. Cheers Jon!

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Pleasure.

[@markk5764]

Genuinely fascinating - looking forward to more of the same.

[@TheFlyingReporter]

Glad you liked it Mark.

[@flyhalf2]

So why do aircraft engines suffer corrosion damage when car engines don't? Surely they both operate in similar environmental conditions?

[@superjeffcentola4945]

Because people drive their car everyday. An airplane for some is a luxury. However it needs to be started at least once a week or atleast lubricate your camshaft/ lifters with camguard or similar

[@superjeffcentola4945]

Also they dont operate in similar conditions at all. Whens the last time you left your house for work at 60 degrees and then 5 minutes later you are at 0 degrees. Then you land at a place thats 100..