Is Scout better than Ranger in D&D 5e?! - Advanced guide to Scout Rogue

[@PackTactics]

The Video is Sponsored by Only Crits: www.onlycrits.com/gatortactics Please check them out and if you like what you see, use the coupon code Gator for 15% discount! Thank you very much Only Crits for sponsoring this video!

[@LucanVaris]

I tend to prefer either Heavy or Engineer. Now... GET TO THE BRIEFCASE!!!

[@alvinleonardo1263]

I disagree when you call Rogues the weakest class, I think Monks are weaker than Rogues because rogues don’t lose their ability to Sneak Attack wile Monks can quickly run out of Ki Points. I also think they’re stronger than Barbarians if the barbarian doesn’t take feats. Then again, most of the martials are so weak without feats…

[@aa6731]

Check out his gunk video, also monks get extra attack and never run out of movement speed, and get ki points back on short rests.

[@AzureIV]

They gave the Thief Rogue subclass climbing speed at Level 3 and not the Scout at Level 9?

[@nickm9102]

​@@AzureIVI wonder if he mixed the two in his head. But for me the best Rogue is either Thief or Assassin, if you are playing at T4 Thief is nice to throw some good caster magic items at and let them play decoy wizard or just to give the Items that are class specific when you don't have that class in your party. Assassin takes some cooperation from the DM to work. If they never let you surprise the enemy your subclass is basically useless.

[@PackTactics]

I'm playing at a rock gig that's at some random barn in the middle of nowhere. 300 people are showing up. Wish me luck!

[@tylarsaunders4303]

Luck bump

[@xiongray]

You got this!

[@hiveinsider9122]

GLHF!

[@epicazeroth]

Break a leg!

[@SaliasLeRounard]

In France, for "stage Luck", we say Merde ! (I would say that it's a nicer version of the "break a leg" the English have, albeit more odorant 🫣) Have fun ! Show them what optimizers can do with an instrument!

[@sebastianfranasovic7005]

It’s important to mention that, after the release of Tasha’s Cauldron Of Everything and the playtests of the game’s next update, Rangers actually get to earn a climb speed and a swim speed alongside an increase to their speed, all by level 6 instead of the scout’s increase by level 9.

[@kongoaurius]

I wish they make a customizable ranger with the favored terrain, maybe you get some damage resistance or unique features

[@sebastianfranasovic7005]

@@kongoaurius Within Playtest 6, the rangers were given a decent amount of customization in my eyes. Within 1st level, you are able to pick a pair of Terrains at the end of every Long Rest which provides you with advantage on Nature and Survival checks within those terrains, as well as expertise in any skill of your choice. By 2nd Level, you could pick a Fighting Style and they changed Favored Enemy to provide you Hunter’s Mark as a part of the core class instead of something you had to pick up. While it admittedly loses some of its immense focus on being good at dealing with some environments and enemies, it allows the Ranger to be generally more useful as a whole through versatility. I’d say that even the Hunter subclass within playtest 6 for the next update to the game is even better than some of the current subclasses, even if it doesn’t learn any new spells, as it provides better customization options and access to strong features like Uncanny Dodge or Evasion at level 7.

[@captainkiwi77]

@@kongoauriusmake it. We can’t rely on wizards at this point to fix things how we want them. We’ve seen the changes they intend and in some cases it’s literally the opposite of what I would do. The rules for my homebrew monk fixes live in my parties discord server and 3 of them are trying it out rn.

[@ChayaNyx]

@@kongoaurius LaserLlama's Alternate Ranger basically has this at level 9, it's pretty cool. Ranger's get Knacks which I basically boil down to Ranger Invocations of sorts. At level 9 you can pick up the Knack Planar Adept and it gives your party the Favored Terrain perk on a chosen extraplanar plane giving you advantage in navigating the plane, resisting it's latent efffects and gives a corresponding resistance to the plane, i.e. Feywild - Psychic Resistance. Also Hunter's Mark gets baked into the class, rather than being a valuable spell.

[@epicazeroth]

The answer to this is probably the same as the answer to "Does Scout have spells?"

[@lexandar11o6]

well, during Scream Fortress Scout does get spells, soo...

[@AdeptusOrkstodes]

Don't need spells

[@coffeeluci]

@@lexandar11o6 nah, man, spell scrolls are items, it's different

[@lexandar11o6]

@@coffeeluci shit, you're right

[@FallenFellFromGlory]

To be useful in difficult games? Yes, you do.

[@gaidencastro9706]

Scout: "I'm a force of nature."

[@nathanfivecoate5848]

"BONK!"

[@Zoddlander]

I arm my Sling and Steady aim! oh right! with Sharpshooter! OH right! With Crusher feat! Oh right! with Swarmkeeper Ranger! Oh! Lets not forget to take some fighter too! Cause Action Surge! Am I still a Rogue? 🤔

[@Nos2113]

Listenin'? Okay. Grass grows, birds fly, sun shines, and, bruddah? I hurt people.

[@engineertf2-v6i]

Give this scout a scattergun and a jar of milk and they'd be so much better than the most optimised peacechrons

[@_mosscat]

7:28 climbing speed has one big advantage over flight: it's usually not banned :)

[@ZohMyFkinGod]

Tbh, I feel lke sudden strike should probably be the level 5 feature of rogues. When everyone gets extra attacks, you kinda get 1 too. Maybe it would be too strong at that level to have 1 more sneak attack, but you also can't use steady aim if you use this so it's not like you'll always hit both. And in fights where there is only 1 big monster, it's useless. It should definetly be on the base class and before level 17.

[@40Found]

Gator waking up at 4:35 is *sending* me

[@DucksAndCatnip]

sending you where

[@xiongray]

Scout makes the best capturer when Grappling with Skirmisher. Sneak Attack KO with a Melee Attack, grapple unconscious foe, and you're booking.

[@nurpozz8594]

Might bei interesting to build a Str based Scout for a grappler, mixed with Rune knight or giant barb. Rogue can get you expertise in athletics and with one enemy grappled, you trigger skirmisher every round. With that you can pull creatures in and out of AoEs twice per round...

[@skycastrum5803]

I love scout grappler. It’s so janky and potentially oddly terrifying. That said, my attempt at it was a lizardman based solely on the idea of alligator death spirals.

[@prosamis]

That's really funny actually

[@codebracker]

This will be extra fun with knock out attack in 5.5e

[@turtley8581]

@@codebracker what's the rule on that? hard to look through all of the playtest content for it

[@draghettis6524]

2:23 You left out that this feature also gives expertise. That's double the normal amount when you get it, and 50% more at higher levels, before considering Skill Expert/Prodigy.

[@rayne-c]

Yeah, what the hell? It's not a couple extra skill proficiencies, it's extra EXPERTISE. That's an enormous difference.

[@avakio19]

The meme of "scout being a better ranger" is only because it was before the optional features that buffed ranger, and because people incorrectly believe rogue to be super op. In practice, I'd prefer thief or arcane trickster over scout, but even then you can't really beat the ranged dps of a sharpshooter ranger with just a rogue, and one that can't even bonus action improvised ranged weapon sneak attack and hold action.

[@jdizzy192]

A DM/player sees a crit sneak attack one tap a boss then suddenly they assume that Rouge is the strongest class in game

[@Terker2]

Even then. People were just wrong before tashas. Pre tasha ranger ist still steonger than any rogue because their good features (archery fighting style and access to great spells) are on their own better than all the trash features rogues get.

[@aurtosebaelheim5942]

@@jdizzy192 I really wish the DMG gave more 'behind the curtain' guidance to help with this. A page on class balance that has a few lines saying something like "Rogues and Paladins can deal exceptional damage with critical hits, they are balanced around this. If you feel like this is an issue in your games consider having encounters with more enemies, including forced movement effects to make the positioning for Sneak Attack take more work or having more encounters per day to drain a Paladin's resources" would go a long way. Add in some more guidance for creating fun, dynamic encounters that avoid the common pitfalls that make GMs think X class is OP too. Maybe also a section on "bad house rules we know you'll consider".

[@Merilirem]

@@aurtosebaelheim5942 Indeed. Making them run through a gauntlet before reaching a time sensitive boss fight. That way the Paladins will have to use some slots and can't just dump it all on smiting. Should be common logic. Everyone wants to do fights where wizards can just throw everything out at Maxx though.

[@Ebonzai]

THis gets back to the FEELIING powerful and why it matters. Honestly just feel period. I think original Ranger hurt by not giving Beastmaster the FEEL people wanted and tables dropping travel made Ranger FEEL wrong. With Rogue you one shot some dude and chase that dragon forever before realizing you never do anything else. ​@@Terker2

[@kongoaurius]

Skirmisher should be free when you uncanny dodge or evasion

[@scotthuff271]

Bloody brilliant mate!

[@mitchmcginn4250]

That's an amazing idea. Next campaign I DM I'll implement that if someone desires to play Scout Rogue.

[@pig.sensei]

This video was really helpful to me since I'm rewroking/homebrewing 5e content in preparation for when we get OneD&D. Thank you Kobold for this TF2 video

[@PackTactics]

❤🐊

[@BroanderRentner]

Sooo... i had a few ideas and played around with a tweaked homebrew of this subclass after i watched your video. I made following changes: - Skirmisher is also usable in the same reaction if you get to use uncanny dodge - Superior Mobility also grants a swimming and climbing speed of 30 and its a lvl 6 feature. - Ambush Master was moved to lvl 10 - Sudden Strike was moved to lvl 15

[@loserlw337]

Once I've made a Centaur that was a Ranger/Rogue multiclass with Hunter and Scout, she wasn't stellar in battle but the amount of proficiencies and expertises was WILD (pun not intended) Looking forward for more videos about rogue! Mainly about the thief subclass!

[@ggfrt96]

i made a knowledge cleric, lore bard, soul knife rogue as a skill junky. final spec was 2 cleric, 6 bard, 12 rogue. sage background and half elf (could do shadar kai since monsters of multiverse) race. picked up prodigy, skill expert, and skilled. idea was to collect every skill and expertise proficiency then apply reliable talent and psionic knack so i passed every skill check without fail.

[@draghettis6524]

9:30 Technically, you could gamble on hitting without advantage to get the advantage on a bonus action attack and Sneak Attack that way. Very janky, though.

[@philliptivis3082]

I played a Wood Elf Scout with a Longbow, Elvish Accuracy feat, and gloves of climbing and swimming. It was like table-topping Assassin's Creed 3 or the Predator, and I loved every minute of it.

[@mikecarson7769]

Nice to see a video about Team Fortress 2, so under-rated! Scout in 5e may have felt powerful for a short time, prior to Tasha's new options for Ranger in terms of the skills, mobility, and extra spells per long rest

[@peterrasmussen4428]

The problem with ranger is that sometimes it can feel like a fighter with spells, not a nature expert. Before the ranger got alternative class features, the ranger would sometimes in very specific terrain feel like a nature expert, and scout would always feel like a nature expert. But yeah, rogue has never been able to compete with ranger power wise.

[@nacholord2328]

Fighter feels like a Ranger without spells.

[@marrcl7986]

I like that gator is slowly becoming more and more unhinged

[@blacksheepscrook8850]

Survivalist gives expertise in both of those skills

[@djago9415]

Still pretty weak, those are very niche skills

[@hrayz]

When the Rogue also gets automatic min 10 on skill dice to All trained skills: never fails anything. Added to triple movement, unfailing stealth, many many sneak attack dice...

[@LucanVaris]

@@hrayz "The enemy takes the dodge action. As such, he negates your very existence as a Rogue."

[@hrayz]

@@LucanVaris That would be awesome. In 30+ years of d&d I've never seen an enemy waste their turn on a defence move. My other fav enemy tactic is going prone while approaching the party (stand, x1.5 move, prone, until in attack range.)

[@hbsavage0387]

@@LucanVaristbf that’s if they can see you so all it would take is hide bonus action and suddenly that disadvantage disappears and the advantage reappears

[@Lolo1995-R]

I think you read it wrong Skirmisher: ending their turn within 5 ft of you, imposed disadvantage in your range attacks. That is what the feature resolve. It is not a defensive feature. It also make easier to use Steady Aim. Superior Mobility: +10 ft movement not only stack with the reaction, it works also with CA Dash. if you stack more speed like mobile feat you get up to 100 ft of movement while attacking, this amount of speed could win combat by itself. Even more if you add boots of Speed. Considering level 17th feature, steady aim and being able to move when the enemy end the turn at 5 ft of you. Crossbow Expert is not necessary in this subclass.

[@KuaEtus]

I really liked the Ready action advice 🐊

[@captainnyan-nyan2005]

On the ambush master. After your first attack that hits. Subsequent attack rolls are advantage as well

[@MotionlessPotato]

Now I'm curious about soul knife. I think it's an easy contender for best rogue.

[@AndrewBrownK]

it's my favorite flavor of rogue in any case

[@finalfantasy50]

it doesnt work with attacks of opportunity so i think phantom is better mechanically but swashbuckler is my favorite flavorwise😊

[@nacholord2328]

Arcane Trickster is the best Rogue subclass because spells. Rogue subclasses are just really, really bad. Soulknife is outdone by crossbow expert + sharpshooter.

[@slydoorkeeper4783]

@@nacholord2328 Assassin really could have just been implemented in the class to some degree. Not saying entirely, but unless you're doing some meta gamey stuff with multiclass, its rather bad.

[@turtley8581]

@@slydoorkeeper4783 like many things ranger does better than rogue, gloomstalker is the real assassin subclass lmao

[@asturias0267]

Awesome, can we expect more TF2 videos in the future?

[@Ignitus541]

I actually got use out of skirmisher ONCE in one of my games because at one point during the campaign I wandered off into the woods and the DM tried to toss an enemy at me that was impossible for me to beat. The creature had enough movement to catch up to me even if I double dashed and skirmisher apparently made it to where the thing was forced to also dash in order to get within range to hit me (according to DM).

[@macromondo8026]

Have to agree with Kobold, when I started playing DnD I thought Rogue was amazing since it was "resourceless" and thus could always be "at their peak" throughout an adventuring day...now I realize that if your peak isn't that great then there's nothing to write home about. P.S: I love Huner Rangers, it might be abit more basic than the other subclasses but having AoE features on martial attacks feels great!

[@slydoorkeeper4783]

My main problem is that hunter feels like they should have had a "pick two" for most of their feature levels. Because in most games I've played, nearly all of their features don't show up very often. Or tend to be given way too late.

[@SlinkyTWF]

I created a wood elf Rogue/Scout + Cleric/Nature build once that I think worked out well as we had a 3-person party. The character was able to max out both urban and rural stealth abilities and be a very useful character with the backup healing and support spells. It was not a high-DPR character though, despite using hide-in-plain sight with cunning action to consistently gain advantage on sneak attacks. It was stronger than you might expect in the that campaign than it would be in a straight, optimized fight. This was before Tasha's and Steady Aim. But it was not a ranger substitute, it was simply an effective town-and-country rogue, and access to the nature cleric spell list and elemental strike compensated for other weaknesses in the build. I'd play this character again.

[@limaTheNoob]

> hide-in-plain sight with cunning action How did that work? The feature called Hide in plain sight takes a full minute to set up

[@badideagenerator2315]

​​@@limaTheNoob I think they mean mask of the wild, one of wood elves' racial abilities

[@bigsmoke8816]

Since you're talking about Rogue now I'd actually love to hear your opinion about the Phantom subclass. It can actually be pretty good when combined with a mount and elven accuracy

[@VileScarMind]

Skirmisher doesn't mean you have to move towards your oen lines. You can use it to move towards the enemy's rear and target a squishy.

[@arturcorreiasantos4774]

You can't do the triple sneak attack the way said it, since you have to take the Attack action on your turn to trigger the 17th lvl feature (so you couldn't use it if you held your action). And you also can't use Haste to pull this off since Ready Action isn't one of the options you can take with the hasted action. You could, however, do this with the help of a Battle Master Fighter using the Commander's Strike maneuver to allow you to attack with your reaction.

[@Draelos]

You can ready an attack on a trigger with your regular action, attack immediately with your hasted action, and attack immediately again with your bonus action. And not necessarily in that order. Nothing in the rules for the Haste spell or the Ready action says the additional action has to come after your regular action. Additional does not mean subsequent. Nothing in the Sudden Strike feature differentiates whether the attack must come from a regular action versus an additional action, only "when you take the Attack action on your turn."

[@arturcorreiasantos4774]

@@Draelos You're right, I stand corrected!

[@mr.m4302]

One e easy fix of that 3rd level feature is if it allowed the Scout Rogue to make one attack roll as part of that movement.

[@lCaptainCanaryl]

Small thing here, but- the Skirmisher feature does potentially lower the movement loss from your Steady Aim, since Steady Aim dissipates at end of turn. Combining this with Skirmisher’s ability to disallow Op Attacks, it’s not entirely shit at a normal table. You can recover your loss if you’re threatened, and if you’re not, then you don’t have to in the first place. Of course, this doesn’t prevent ranged attackers, but that’s a given with the ability and the use of Steady Aim should always consider the situation at-hand anyway.

[@greaterdanemark2397]

When I first read skirmisher I thought it was incredible for ranged rogues as you could keep your bonus action on your next turn for steady aim or a crossbow expert attack, but considering you’re losing out on uncanny dodge and attacks of opportunity I really wish it triggered right when an enemy moves within 5 feet of you and was your full speed

[@buddhaweatherby368]

I can see a fair bit of multi class synergy between Scout and some of the Ranger subclasses. Expertise in Survival and Nature as bonus proficiencies on top of other Expertise slots, multi-attack with doubled odds on sneak attack, cunning action, spells…

[@giraffedragon6110]

Ahh the scout rogue. I’ve been wanting to try this one for awhile. I actually drafted a level 3 Lizardfolk rogue with the sailor background and he had 10 proficiencies (this was before the race changes in Monsters of the multiverse) -2 from sailor -2 from hunters lore -Gain proficiency AND expertise in nature and survival (so 2) - 4 from rogue If you did it right, that’s 10 proficiencies, 4 of which are expertise.

[@XxDAYMONx]

If you are first in the initiative roll you also can just ready an action to get sneak attack : "When an ally is next to an enemy i attack" Also you are a rogue, so in the right environement you can eventually hide as a bonus action before attacking.

[@PackTactics]

Idiot me, I should have thought of ready action when first in initiative. Now I'm actually annoyed with this video.

[@drewpatterson7917]

I don't know, personally I feel a large point of the rogue class is to be able to find ways to circumvent combat. They are meant to do things like sneak behind enemy lines, isolate singular important targets, and use sneak attack to disable them before combat even begins. Or maybe use their expertise in a skill or their thief's tools to disable a mechanical weapon that an enemy intends to use (like a trebuchet or a cannon, or some sort of magic death laser), or better yet rig it to backfire. Or perhaps using their expertise in knowledge skills to gain valuable knowledge at timely moments, like nature to find a favorable battlefield to fight on as the party retreats from an enemy. Essentially, I view the Rogue class as a toolkit designed to allow you to set up the plot. The point of the rogue is essentially to set their own win condition for a scenario (disable the enemies weapon, retrieve the MacGuffin, set the chandelier to fall and crush the enemies, discover the enemies motivations and make a better offer if their grunts, or convince them they need to be elsewhere and quickly, or perhaps setting a trap of some kind - the possibilities are myriad and context dependent). The rogue toolkit is designed to allow for a player to pursue that condition they set themselves (usually with some level of DM acquiescence, but still) whether they are out of combat (and thus free to act), or even within a combat scenario (with cunning action allowing them to more freely move around the battlefield with disengage and dash bonus actions, and the hide bonus action allowing them to do so un-accosted while the rest of the party distracts the enemies and allows the rogue to put his own plan into action. Sneak attack is designed to enable them to more effectively take out single targets of particular importance. The subclasses reinforce these ideas also - although I'll limit my point here to the subject of discussion. The Scout's third level features immediately give you two more expertise points in Nature and Survival, immediately making the character excellent at navigating the wilderness and using the natural terrain to their advantage - allowing them to find secret entrances into places by observing the behavior of small animals or insects, allowing them to track other creatures, enabling them to use the natural environment as a trap or as a refuge, etc. The reaction movement feature also allows them not only to fall back, but to press forward, BEHIND enemy lines without opportunity attacks. The fact that the rogue is not a high priority target because of its lack-luster combat abilities, ironically offers them more freedom because they often won't be the primary target of enemies. At its best, while everyone else is focused on the battle - the rogue pursues an alternative win-condition, one which the enemies realize only too late.

[@nonashubeltaine2861]

I played a game as a Drake Warden Ranger and what became Scout Rouge multicast in a game. I wasn’t planning too but I chose Scout, when actually I only wanted to get the Tasha’s Steady Aim feature to do a Mongolian style mounted archer thing with my Drake, in response to my DM’s habit of boxing us in places and instantly surrounding us with “secret doors” all the time. Soon as I got Scout’s skirmish ability he stopped boxing us in. Over all, that combination didn’t work. As I learn as we player leveled up more and more playing a companion class suffers the more levels are taken away from it. If you’re really dead set on a Ranger/Rogue multiclass then something like Faywander or Gloomslaker would have been better. But yeah, I wouldn’t have wanted to of been a Scout Rogue unless I had a Lightning in a bottle RP idea. Some rogue subclasses are just better as multiclass dips and Scout is one of them for Skirmish.

[@marcosantonio-hj7vp]

I already played with this archetype and I really enjoyed. The power is nothing new ignoring the LV 17 wicht is the point your damege REALLY increse. The main point was all the diferent oportunitis to act in game, a really fun rolle play.

[@MatthewDragonHammer]

You missed an important detail in Survivalist: It doesn’t just give you 2 bonus proficiencies, it also gives you expertise in both!

[@Rebelcommander6]

I had a build in mind for Fighter/Brute and Rogue/Scout, so this was handy to hear. Granted Rogue would have just been a dip

[@fallenphoenixiv]

I am so glad that people are starting to see how bad scout is. I've played one from level 1 to 9 (so basically 3/4 of most campaigns), and it felt like I was just a rogue with two bonus expertise.

[@fallenphoenixiv]

I do have my own take of a scout revision, and every who's looked at it loves it with only a couple of minor complaints (primarily about the secondary feature at 3rd level)

[@SaegleBagel]

I've taken this subclass when multiclassing 3 levels into rogue from ranger, the expertises are pretty good and the escape on reaction is situational but nice to have

[@amyeasler2086]

One of my fav characters was a scout with 3 level start as a gloom stalker ranger it was just alot of fun

[@Gw2Zoke]

what video does he go over haste? I had always considered it a pretty good spell

[@jinxtheunluckypony]

It still blows my mind that people seriously think Rogues are overpowered. They see the Rogue make one big hit and don’t realize the fact that the Fighter’s tree attacks delt more damage overall. I told WotC to buff Rogues in every OD&D survey, let’s hope they get something in 5.5E.

[@fadeleaf845]

And just about any source of disadvantage on the attack makes the big hit evaporate

[@mrskribble]

A multi class scout rogue/ranger would be tight. But just the three level bit to get scout rogue stuff.

[@Psychomaniac14]

I think you missed that if you hit a creature as a level 13+ scout rogue using your action then you can attack them as a bonus action and get advantage because you hit them, letting you trigger sneak attack yeah it's not much, but it IS something you missed that makes the subclass slightly better

[@ridgetmacaroni7015]

Love the team fortress 2 content! This is what I watch this channel for!

[@AllThingsFascinate]

I feel like our tables have different experiences with skill checks. Expertise might be the most powerful thing we've seen.

[@40Found]

There's a full video about it on the channel but expertise mathematically does nothing 85% of the time at level 5.

[@brandonlopina7733]

I am playing a Scout Rogue, as the DM, as an DMPC. He is the party's Nature guide as they travel cross-country and up a deadly mountain. It feels like the perfect level of strength and skills to be useful without stepping on the player's toes. Which is to say its not very strong but incredibly useful. He is able to do all of the "objectives" during a combat that the party asks of him without the party feeling like they are missing out on impactful damage. He's the master lever puller, scroll nabber, jewel breaker, button pusher, door unlocker, explosive layer, etc. On the topic of the Skirmisher, I also found it lack luster when it came to keeping away from enemies in testing. I then gave my DMPC the Mobile feat and exclusively used Skirmisher to not play keep away but to run through a crowd of enemies. Scrolls of Jump were also useful for this character. He used the Skirmisher movement to jump over or up objects, effectively giving him something like a climbing speed. He also took the Mariner fighting style with a feat. Not always available at each table but it make thematic sense for this DMPC to actually have a climbing and swim speed. I agree that Scout isn't the strongest rogue or that they even compare to Ranger's at even levels. I do believe that it's effectively a near perfect sidekick.

[@kaien17]

But can you really combine sneak attack of opportunity via haste and scout feature? With haste combo your action goes to ready action and Sudden Strike specify you have to take an attack action

[@ellysemilton1309]

Sudden Strike's attack is a bonus action, while Haste grants you an extra action (if you choose to attack you can only make one attack with that action). It is still the attack action and because the Sudden Strike attack isn't part of the action, it should work.

[@kaien17]

@@ellysemilton1309 Yeah, after reading haste I think you are right.

[@punishedwhispers1218]

I wouldnt say this is the 'optimal play', but three levels of rogue to grab scout on a Ranger 5 setup seems kinda nice. You get aim, and then skirmish to cover up the cost of having no movement if you still need to move for whatever reason.

[@neceon4586]

I DM for a lvl5 Arcane Trickster Rogue. Her combat consists of chilling in the back line, using steady aim and shooting once with her +1 light crossbow. She doesn't have crossbow expert or something similar. How do I make combat more engaging for her? She doesn't really have a good reason to get more into the action

[@supersmily5811]

To make it good you'd have to swap Sudden Strike and Skirmisher (yes, really, see all other Rogue subs boosting Sneak Attack at 3rd level). Then you'd have to change Skirmisher to trigger without your Reaction when an enemy moves into melee. Make it so after you choose to move, then it can't trigger again until the end of your next turn. Oh, and what the heck, give the class Extra Attack 1 at level 5.

[@JaredHight-g4e]

You should do a video on spells. Specifically what a spell means by see a target vs area within range and all those other little foible in their descriptions. How does it interact with invisibility (and of course alternate sights) and how does cover affect it? Is it intentional that a wizard can’t use half their spells on an invisible enemy or is this bad rules lawyering? And of course spells that trigger on the start of a creatures turn OR when it enters for the first time: it’s generally accepted that pushing an enemy into it causes damage but was that intended? I give my PCs the benefit of the doubt you can get double damage from moon beam or spirit guardians but it always seemed weird, especially since the initial casting doesn’t cause damage (or maybe it does and we’ve been doing it wrong)? Anyway I feel like this is a topic that doesn’t get brought up until an enemy starts being invisible, then half the party’s spell list is “useless”, or what is the limit on “a point within range”. Can you throw fireballs around corners or behind walls or is there a secret line of sight rule somewhere? I’d like to here your thoughts on the subject.

[@slaplapdog]

I wish the Scouts movement related features worked with mounted movement.

[@Marshall-p5z]

@PackTactics I'm making a homebrew spell caster that burn 3× the level hit points to the level of the spell you cast instead of sell slots. What do you think of it?

[@PackTactics]

Any healing spell in the game outpaces that.

[@Marshall-p5z]

@@PackTactics good point, I could make it were healing magic doe's not work on him. Are there any homebrew classes that you like? Or going to do a video on?

[@SpiritWolf1966]

I enjoy all of Pack Tactics videos

[@DogBehaviorGuy]

me, seeing the video title: "what? no way... they don't even have multi-attack!" me, watching the video: "excellent, kobold hasn't lost his damn mind."

[@slydoorkeeper4783]

That's been my big problem with rogue in 5e, they are really all or nothing. and its not like their all is that good unless you are playing ultra vanilla 5e. Its the same light as fire bolt vs eldritch blast (unmodified). Don't underestimate the power of several attacks, even if they are weaker, than one big/"big" attack. Because at least with several attacks, you have a chance of doing something. An all in leaves you with the chance of doing nothing. This kind of stuff is why I usually not recommend people using the -5/+10 from sharp shooter on rogue.

[@calledwidge8930]

I'm playing a rogue at a table that allows the OneDnD weapon masteries. Having played my fair share of rogue in the past, the impact that they make on the class impact is actually insane. Vex basically fixes the main issue that I find with rogue, being the reliance of your teammates for consistent sneak attack. Having advantage on basically all of your attacks also mitigates that huge DPS loss of missing a SA, and with elven accuracy you can pump out some insanely consistent numbers while also not being completely useless if you're separated from your party and have nowhere you can hide

[@jpjfrey5673]

Cunning Action Hide. Fire a shot. Hide again next turn *Rinse and repeat* What teammates do you need again? There's *always* somewhere you can hide, and if you're in an open field, you've made a much worse mistake than just picking Rogue

[@weirdo1060]

Late opinion: multiclass scout rogue with gloomstalker ranger

[@derektom14]

Crossbow Expert is still pretty bad for the Scout at level 17. You don't need to reload at all if you're using a shortbow instead of a hand crossbow, and you could always switch to a melee weapon while in melee, so it only helps in the case where you need to attack an enemy in melee and an enemy within 30 feet. (And even that is unlikely with Skirmisher to escape melee before your turn starts.)

[@PackTactics]

As you progress in levels, pick Crossbow expert anyways.

[@derektom14]

@@PackTactics Crossbow Expert is an option, but if you're in a campaign where you expect to hit level 17, you may want a feat that's good when you get it and also still good at level 17. The rogue's bonus action already has several useful options of Hide, Dash, Disengage, and Steady Aim, so they'd use the bonus action attack far less often than a fighter or ranger. Elven Accuracy, for example, grants more DPR with advantage from Hide or Steady Aim than Crossbow Expert offers with an additional attack even in cases where you'd get Sneak Attack regardless (at least at level 11 that I checked), and that's not even counting that it also progresses your Dex and increases your short-range for ranged attacks from 30 feet to 80 feet (or 150 feet as a high or wood elf with a longbow).

[@pyromaremoto]

1:10 TF2 mentionated #SAVETF2 #fixTF2 🗣️‼️‼️‼️‼️

[@fadeleaf845]

The real problem of Rogue shows up the exact moment there are monsters that can do any of the following: -Possess high passive perception and has access to special senses -Move at a rate faster than 30 feet, especially if they are ranged attackers -Use attacks or powers that impose disadvantage on attack rolls -Move in terrain that makes it difficult to close in on them in melee While it's normally considered standard to sneak attack every turn that will absolutely not hold if the monsters do things to foil sneak attacks. Which I would expect at tables in which monsters account for a caster's spells and try to plan around them.

[@a99barnsey]

Scout is a solid dip for a ranger. Pairs well with Zephyr Strike. Probably not as good as gloom stalker but what is?

[@Athorment]

I enjoy some of these flavor subclasses, but seeing how late even their 2nd feat comes up, i only ever use rogue levels for Multi classing :/

[@allenkeith7160]

Climbing Speed: Honestly between Athlete and Mobile, rough terrain and climbing does not slow you down anyways, AND your movement speed is 50 feet now at level 9 if you chose these two. Not certain if Mobility applies to my climbing speed too, but I think it does? Also, I think I just doubled my Centaur Monk's land speed (For 1 minute) from 110 to 220... So Movement, then Dash, and then Dash Again, would be 660... AND since Monk's Step of the Wind can be used for yet ANOTHER dash as a Bonus Action, I could dash another 220... for a grand total of 880 movement speed in 6 seconds? For a total of 1 minute and however long my Ki Points last for. Hopefully most chases will not last long enough to find out. Without Ki, that's still 1 minute, or 10 turns of a 660 feet of movement (Hasted Double-dashing), and 220 movement speed un-hasted, un-winded step of the Normal Dash... Or back to the beginning, 110 base movement speed. I should add I think lv 16 is when a Monk gets ALL of their movement speed class bonuses, so this is TOP SPEED at lv 16. Prior levels will be a little bit slower. Mobile has already been calculated into the total movement speed, hence the 110 speed, otherwise it would have been simply 100 without it. But no penalty to movement while Dashing, +10 movement speed, and if you have to pass by someone and don't mind giving up one Dash, you can strike at them and pass by without provoking opportunity attacks, whether you hit or miss. I double-checked this build for validity and for a purely speed inspired build it is very legal I promise! For anyone curious, this build is only Valid IF your DM allows your "Centaur" to put Horseshoes of Speed on your little Horsey Hooves. I have one DM that stated he would not allow it, but others have said they may. The Horseshoes can be worn by "Horses" or any other similarly "Hooved" creatures, so Centaurs completely fit that bill by written rules! Without them, minus 30 feet of base movement speed from all the movement calculations. Also think of it? A Centaur running 110, 220, or 330 feet per round running over Water like some kind of freaking motor-boat? (Because Monks can still run on water last I read) This build was made mostly out of fun and curiosity. It is a Chaser, it has Charger (Charge at you at 20-30 MPG only to body-check or kick you gotta hurt!). I chose Monk only because they had the highest movement speed bonus of all the Classes, I chose Centaur because of 40 foot Movement Speed, and glad I did because I ran across Horseshoes of Speed. I began attempting to fine-tune it from there! I am happy with the results, though this character feels more like an NPC the way he is built than an actual PC. It's fine either way though.

[@FakeDadRealFriend]

I always thought it was called the "real" Ranger as a matter of executing the fantasy. To many, arguably most, the fantasy of the Ranger focuses on things like hunting, tracking, and having your mystical bond with nature more directly empower your SKILLS. But Ranger as a class derives a large budget of its power from clever usage of things like Conjure Animals, Spike Growth, and Goodberry. I think this is the OPPOSITE of what a lot of people imagine the focus of a ranger should be, overshadowing their image as a sort of Master Hunter and instead making them more into a Shaman who happens to have Extra Attack. Since Scout lacks spellcasting, and people believe in skill monkeying as a concept, the Scout hits their brains right as a more "correct" focal point for power budget - with focus being on having plus one-million to Survival and Stealth and being a survivalist who can dish out crazy-feeling (but bad) ambush damage with sneak attack. Perception is EVERYTHING.

[@naum2099]

So, i see Kobold doesn't think that barbarian is the weakest class in the game anymore... What made you change your mind ?

[@40Found]

It's in the tier list but probably just extra attack

[@AvangionQ]

All that a scout really needs to be a better ranger is some way to use their concentration for a damage increase ... so, dip, burn a feat, or better yet, what's a good magic item for this effect? Skirmisher + Uncanny Dodge, I've seen a table where these triggered both after the rogue was melee hit ... after the hit, reaction was triggered, rogue took half damage, then moved 3 squares.

[@Zoddlander]

IMO 5 levels Swarmkeeper and the rest rogue is pretty fun! and if you use Crusher and a Sling! you can have very fun moving some of the monsters around a few times every turn! Extra attack is needed! but I would probly use Samurai 5 or 6 levels first!

[@tridentgreen3346]

I’ve played a scout before and damn does that 3rd level feature just screw you over more than help. Scout rogue was my fastest character death, took all of an hour. Twice actually.

[@jaxwarp8373]

I find it weird how often people just kind of forget that rangers have spells. And yeah their spell list is kinda wierd, but it's got some bangers on it tbh

[@Erakay9533]

Swashbuckler for next Rouge vid?

[@PackTactics]

Its funny you say that, I was looking at Swashbuckler first but I decided that would be a boring video so I didn't do it.

[@greghamilton9505]

For me the best Ranger is Gloomstalker 5/Scout X I’ve played one for almost two years from 1-17th level. A very fun build

[@KiithnarasAshaa]

Rogues are my favorite class to play, but they really are the weakest class of all (except a melee monk). Having a lot of fun with a (for now) straight class soulknife.

[@ADT1995]

AT is the best rogue because they get spells, but I will say that I have been very difficult to pin down with this subclass once I don't remember how I got it but I ended up with a 55 base foot movement speed, which paired nicely with the reaction movement, and was consistently using my bonus action to dash, had sharpshooter and xbow expert. And I was playing as a kobold so I was consistently landing sneak attack. I would have still been better with a ranger or fighter, but I wasn't optimizing (basically I'm not trying to argue that it was better, but it is still very viable at mid-optimization tables)

[@CivilWarMan]

Scout's not better than Ranger, but it is the obvious subclass to go with for a Ranger-like character in a low to no magic campaign.

[@3personal5me8]

You know, speaking of climbing speed and underpowered abilities; A monks whole "running on vertical surfaces" is, for one, limited to vertical surfaces. So any kind of overhang ruins it for you. And there might be some ambiguity in that it says you can run "along" a vertical surface, but it doesn't say you can run *up* a vertical surface. It also doesn't persist between rounds, so you can't travel long distances with it, and finally, its a 9th level ability. A climb speed still has the issues with overhangs, as it doesn't affect trying to move along a ceiling, but in most cases, its better than what a monk can do. And to top it off, at third level, a Dhampir gets a climb speed equal to their move speed. And at fifth level, it expands to allow movement upside down and along ceilings, while leaving their hands free, meaning they can just stroll up and down walls, casually hang from the ceiling while they fight, and generally do Spider-Man stuff.

[@KaitlynBurnellMath]

Honestly, Scout is mostly noteworthy if you want to make one of those "ultimate skillmonkey" builds. Like...1 level dip in knowledge cleric for proficiency and exertise in two skills, Half-Elf Rogue for proficiency in 8 skils expertise in four more skills, Scout for proficiency and expertise in two more skills. That's 8 expertise and 12 skill proficiencies, without being a terrible character (still a mostly mono-classed rogue with a 1 level cleric dip). That said, these days if you want to be good at skill checks as a rogue, you probably just pick Soulknife anyway so that you can use your psi dice to get even higher skill checks.

[@jahuuuu9625]

Wouldn’t skirmisher be good for enemies that are 60ft away from you? They dash to reach you and you use it to walk away, then you cunning action dash and attack them with your action. If they are melee only and you have enough space to keep running, they’ll never reach you

[@matthewlaird5235]

I played a scout 3, gloom stalker 3, battle master 14 in Ryme of the Frost Maiden. I also did not use the alternate ranger features. The ability to have advantage on Wis. checks in an arctic environment was amazing in that campaign, it came up all the time. Expertise in perception, stealth, nature, and survival, also came up constantly. With all that being said, I don’t think I would ever go strait rogue, it’s kinda week.

[@matheusberzaghi]

Okay okay, a will give Ranger a chance after 7 years

[@TeaRanosaur]

With regards to rogues being weak I think my biggest problem with them power-level-wise is that pretty much any dex-based martial can benefit from a 1-3 level dip in rogue after getting multi attack and then they're just straight up better rogues than rogues are.

[@TheAusar]

I thought this would be about some cool things scout can do, but instead it's just a 12 minute roast session

[@Grygus_Triss]

I played a scout once. Loved it. But I was playing it for the roleplay, not at an optimized character.

[@braintornout6555]

I feel that you're underestimating Scout just a tiny bit, especially with how much he can rely on Steady Aim. The way his 3rd level feature works you can use steady aim and still with the right positioning make it so that you can safely dodge-roll to safety. So your Steady Aim movement drop doesn't get punished nearly as hard for misstepping.

[@bjarnivalur6330]

It's funny how different tables view different things, I have only ever heard people talk about Scout as being pretty bad or even as a "nonSubclass"

[@stunnfisk1276]

So many rogue subclasses just give you early access to higher level abilities

[@hrayz]

That "small" speed boost is actually Triple. They can move, dash, cunning action dash.

[@felixhenson9926]

You can't move and also dash can you?

[@hrayz]

@@felixhenson9926 Anyone can Move + Action(Dash), often just called "double move". The rogue has the Cunning Action - as a Bonus Action can Dash (or Withdrawal, or Hide.) So, "triple move". 😀

[@strahlungsopfer]

in other words, rogues already have excellent movement and don't need this at lvl 9

[@codebracker]

​@@felixhenson9926what did you think dash does?

[@aurtosebaelheim5942]

I feel like a lot of the early Ranger hate comes from D&D tropes not being as culturally ingrained as they are now. 4e's Ranger was nonmagical and the go-to examples of Rangers are Strider and Legolas from LotR. The Ranger class description doesn't even mention spells until the first subheading (paragraph 6) and even then only has 4 sentences on magic before going into rules text. What D&D-style Rangers do we even have in popular culture? Geralt of Rivia? - Witcher 3 is the right time-frame for the comparison but he casts very different sorts of spells. Some character from WoW I'm unaware of? - Of course not, 5e is the edition that definitely isn't like WoW, how dare you make that comparison. John Bloodborne? - Maybe closer than Geralt but the magic still has a different vibe. San (Princess Mononoke)? - I'm not sure she does any magic, but at least she interacts with magical phenomena in a way that's close. Yoda/Ben Kenobi? - The aesthetics feel all wrong but they're a lot closer than it initially seems (but nobody's looking at Ranger when they want to play a Jedi). Skyrim's Dragonborn? - Shouts are primal-coded, but there's too little character there for them to be much of anything. Link? - the character changes a whole lot between games and the series was at its least relevant around when 5e released. Fremen? - Pretty close, not exactly on people's minds in the early days of 5e. Aquaman? - Nobody wants to be Aquaman. That was a fair chunk of text. If I were the Ranger description I'd be mentioning spellcasting for the first time about now. Spellcasting just isn't part of the class-fantasy people go in with - they're looking for the bow class or a medium-armour skirmisher with a green aesthetic - so they ignore it or pick the least overtly magical spells. If you take the spells away, what are you left with? A worse combatant than a Fighter? A skirmisher with fewer and more niche skills than a Rogue? A man with a dog? Ranger is a fine class, but it compares poorly to its martial peers in the areas people wanted it to shine. Scout is a 'better' Ranger because it's better able to embody the characters people thought of when they first heard the word 'Ranger'.

[@torch1028]

The best ranger is a toss up between a hexlock of the chain or the pet artificer Change my mind

[@RokuroCarisu]

Scout Rogue makes a decent multiclass for a Monk if you want play a ninja.

[@princephantom1294]

It’s very interesting to me how the community at large was fooled into thinking “rogue op” because sneak attack can do big numbers once per turn, without realizing that other martials were doing more damage, just spread out over multiple attacks. Just interesting to me how easily out brains can be tricked.

[@hrayz]

Unless you stack your other character with every available damage boost (flaming sword, poisons, ect.) those multiple attacks will never add up to a +9d6 sneak attack (or more.) Best they can do is to keep up. (Wizards can out damage for a few rounds, then run out of magic.)

[@brachmindunsparce6044]

​@@hrayzThe thing is that those damage boosts are very easy to acquire. XBE/SS/PAM/GWM exist and boost martial DPR over a rogue's. Druid and Ranger have access to the best summoning spells in the game. Spamming blast spells isn't very smart but even from this stand point, the guaranteed AOE damage from spells like Spirit Guardians, Fireball, and Binding Ice are very good.

[@hrayz]

@@brachmindunsparce6044 having played and run games for many years, as well as running as DM as big tournaments and events, only the most dedicated min-max'ers and power gamers have been able to put together martials that can keep up with basic rogues.

[@princephantom1294]

@@hrayz you’re comparing a level 20 rogue to a martial with only extra attack, ignoring every other buff that they can collect along the way. Subclasses, class features, spells, and most of all feats (either a combo of GWM/PAM or CBE/SS) easily allow any martial to outdamage a rogue at nearly every level. Wizards don’t run out of magic after a few turns either (and I assume you used wizards as an example for all casters). A single big shutdown or consistent AoE damage spell will normally be enough for each individual encounter, supplimented by cantrip spam. Rogues lose in nearly every category, and it’s not particularly close.

[@hrayz]

@@princephantom1294 I am certainly not. Any game past L11 and the rogue is unstoppable. Play the game, not just look at numbers.

[@theuncalledfor]

I was going to make a Scout Rogue actually named Scout, but after seeing too many of your videos and starting to understand what makes a class good, I noticed that it's... really weak. I made her a Swarmkeeper Ranger instead. Not the strongest subclass, but it looks fun.

[@MrTwyres]

Good + TF2 reference. Demoman ftw