Padan Fain Was A Wasted Villain

Padan Fain was certainly crazy, very creepy, and extremely evil. But, was he wasted in the Wheel of Time series? We'll take a look at the character of Padan Fain and answer the question, was Padan Fain wasted in the Wheel of Time?
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00:00 - Introduction
00:41 - Spoiler Warning
01:05 - History Before the Story
03:15 - Actions During the Story
08:02 - Appearance
08:45 - Personality
09:29 - Special Abilities
11:30 - Notable Possessions
11:51 - Relationships
12:32 - Greatest Moments
13:07 - What Happens After the Story?
13:37 - Overall Thoughts
14:45 - Final Thoughts

[@NaeBlis]

Do you think Padan Fain was a wasted villain or a great one?

[@JonasBelgi]

That depends on his initial purpose. In the beginning, he served to show the boys that they can't trust anyone, no matter how well they think they might know someone, and to provide a strong sense of foreboding and danger until the Forsaken show up and become an even greater existential threat (had that happened), thus requiring less input from Fain. At a certain point, it's like RJ realized he'd created this really interesting, unique character, but there wasn't always room for Fain in the story. So he got trotted out occasionally to create chaos, often redirecting the story when he'd show up. If that was ultimately his function, to sow doubt and chaos in the earlier books, then yes, he was was successful until he was basically no longer needed (towards the end of the series, where everything is chaotic, dulling his impact on the story). If he was supposed to have some grand arc throughout the series culminating in a huge or even just really cool showdown (like the last fight with the gholam) then yes, he's absolutely a failed villain.

[@camalienator]

I would have him disrupt both light and shadow's plans (light first, dealing a heavy blow, but then also being fundamental in the defeat of the shadow), converting some from both sides (with some reasoning, other than 'special powers', that would be much more impactful). That would bring some thought to those that are 'neither light nor shadow', and those that 'shift between', or are abandoned by both, and would make it (Shaisam) endure to the new spinning of the wheel, somehow "breaking" the light-shadow duality? Also, Cadsuane. Easy.

[@anydaynow01]

He was a great one considering you saw how he gained power over time alongside Rand. He wasn't really wasted until his role and death in the last battle. I think his ending should have been as ambiguous as Rand's was, maybe even going so far as alluding to him being the seed of the new Dark One for the next turning of the wheel.

[@G-Loheem]

He was great but he could’ve done more and had a much better ending.

[@danielbroome5690]

@@camalienator In that same vein, it might have been cool for him to show up for a coordinated attack against rand by several forsaken at once and Fain just busts out Mashadar and takes them to a standstill single-handedly allowing an injured Rand to retreat because "ONLY I WILL KILL HIM!" maybe he even kills one or two of the Forsaken since there were so many in the later books.

[@jamesphillips4249]

I believe Fain was the pattern's replacement in case Rand destroyed the Dark one as he intended to do until the very last moment. The pattern needs a corrupting force outside of it, so a never before seen source of corruption emerges in this age... As Padon Fain tells us his plan to settle himself into Shayol ghul, Rand decides not to destroy the Dark one, and Fain is immediately vulnerable and killed quickly. This headcannon makes me love Fain in the books, he believes he is willingly using his powers, but he is constrained by them, which is the double-meaning of "fain".

[@ChrisHobson916]

Interesting way to look at it.

[@TheRockhound119]

This is sort of how I saw it too. The pattern weaves as it wills, Padan Fain being a possible replacement for Shaitan makes sense.

[@Iansco1]

Heard the same theory, except it was "He was the creator's reset button". If Rand kills the dark one? Fain itiates such crap it ALL starts over. Or Rand loses same.

[@wilhufftarkin5852]

Reminds me of the 3 false Dragons getting defeated immidiatly, once Rand proclaims himself.

[@KingOfMadCows]

Considering how Fain killed Perrin's whole family, he should have been a bigger villain for Perrin than Mat or Rand.

[@Znatnhos]

Fain was one of the few book characters that literally made my skin crawl. He was such a big part of the whole series all the way from Eye of the World to Memory of Light. Then for him to just die was a bit of an anticlimax. I like your idea of fain somehow being instrumental in defeating the dark one, or becoming the dark one in the end somehow. And Cadsuane sedai can take what she wants at any time...

[@micah7492]

Was pretty disappointed in his ending, but I love his character so much. It's like RJ said "how many horrific magical events can we inflict on one person?"

[@julienwood577]

I believe the character was written poorly not by RJ but by Brandon Sanderson. Sanderson literally stated he messed up with Padan Fain and didn’t know how to finish him cause there wasn’t much about him in the notes. Padan was literally the next topic to be discussed with RJs team but he passed away that weekend. Unfortunately we will never know what he was meant to be to the story. I believe RJ had a very cool ending for him in store.

[@marcob1729]

@@julienwood577 IDK, RJ started dropping the ball with Fain around the Two Rivers assault time frame. It ended with a whimper for him, and I could definitely chalk it up as a storyline that he didn't know how to end

[@samuelrussell5760]

I do like the theory that the pattern created a backup dark one in case Rand chose to destroy the original dark one. One of the major themes of the series is the importance of balance between the two halves. And it’s clear that this includes good vs evil. There has to be evil in order for good to matter. The pattern creates things to maintain balance.

[@samuelrussell5760]

In regards to what could have been done differently, it's tricky to do this in the confines of how the WoT series is written. We get very little in terms of literal exposition written from the viewpoint of an omniscient narrator. It's always the POV of some character, with his or her own opinions, lens for seeing the world, and limitations in terms of what that character knows or believes. In order to actually confirm the Padan Fain/Mordeth = backup dark one, some character could have to understand that and explain it. I'm not sure how you could work that in to the ending and who would even fit to be that POV character.

[@jayb8934]

@@samuelrussell5760 It's a good theory, and I don't think that it needs confirmation. A good story always leaves some things open to the reader's imagination. This is as good an explanation for Fain's role in the Pattern as any.

[@jgalt99]

@@jayb8934 Truth.

[@wotfanedit]

@@samuelrussell5760 there's one way it could be done: Herid Fel's obscure notes could have contained some hint about it. "Always Dark to give Light form" or something similar. Like his notes about clearing away the Rubble. Would have been a good Easter egg.

[@kathryncainmadsen5850]

I took it a little differently. The balance was more like selfishness and unselfishness and what motivates people. Or chaos and order in balance. and I saw Fain as representing the ultimate corruption and imbalance of the dark. Fain WAS imbalance. Rand had to find the balance in himself too and he almost didn’t but then did. Fain didn’t.

[@p.c.windhamparanormalroman4339]

I think I would have made it a perpetual fight one on one Fain against The Dark One while sealed away. Something like this: Fain feels he now has enough power to strike at the Dark One directly for the shit done to him and just has the Dark One's prison was being re-sealed Fain says no, it will only be him who will defeat the Dark One and attacks. While the Dark One is fending off Fain neither getting the upper hand or losing the prison is sealed. Then as an epilogue, a battle is described of the two fighting perfectly evenly matched where neither one can let up for eternity thus keeping each one so occupied with their hatred for one another that neither can spend even the tiniest amount of thought to how they can escape again.

[@USCMM09]

I always had my own mental fan fic of Padan Fain somehow making it to Rand during his battle with the DO and fatally stabbing Rand in slow motion during the "boss fight" (thus being the fulfillment of the blood spilling on Shayol Ghul prophecy), leaving Rand without a physical body. Mashadar would also kill Moridin's soul, leaving his physical body an unoccupied husk. Moraine would kill Padan Fain and Nynaeve would learn how to use the OP to stitch untethered souls into human husks, and thus placing Rand's soul in Moridin's body. The evil in Padan Fain would be unleased upon his death, and sealed away with the DO, leaving the two entities to fight and evolve until they are unleashed upon the world during the next drilling of the bore.

[@TheDesertSpear]

Fain = Gollum. I would have made him somehow help Rand to defeat the Dark One, like how Gollum was needed to destroy the One Ring

[@pastverb1]

I was certain for years Rand would weave Fain / Mordeth into a new seal the Dark One couldn't touch because of the "counterpoint" reaction between their evils. But I guess randomly shanking him works too.

[@askmeaboutmattweiner]

Oh I quite like this take

[@kyrroti9921]

The three shall be one, One Power, True Power, whatever Fain became.

[@tobyjimmy7194]

I've always thought that if I ever got about to writing a book, if have a Padan Fain type villain/rouge anti-hero character who's only concerned with sowing chaos for everyone else

[@istuilhos]

I've long suspected RJ wrote himself into a corner with Fain, specifically that Fain's arc would lead the full story arc in a direction he didn't want. We'll probably never know, but I'd love to see what that abandoned full story arc would have been like.

[@danecooper2749]

I agree. Originally I thought Rand would kill the DO an then realise his mistake only to have Fain take the DO spot... then I read RJ saying Fain was unique. RJ had an idea for him but just couldn't get it to work with how the story evolved. It sucks with what Fain went through only to become an after thought of "Oh hey, he needs to be delt with... there dead." Would love to know what RJ intended for Fain from the beginning

[@istuilhos]

Was Fain frequenting Emond's Field before he was summoned to Shayol Ghul? I think this matters a lot. If Fain started frequenting Emond's Field after his summoning, it makes sense that Fain went there due to his new tracking sense. But if before, how did Ishamael know to choose Fain? I would surmise he didn't, and that Fain was only one of a number of trackers. What happened to those others?

[@JesseSierks]

"I'm not locked in here with you. You're trapped in here with me."

[@ElliotEdits]

I agree, it felt like Padan Fain's character was building up to being an unprecedented piece of the puzzle for locking the Dark One away. Wonder if the show will come up with a better ending 🤞

[@danielbroome5690]

I know exactly what I would have done. RJ already did a great job in Winter's Heart of setting up Rand covertly organizing this secret mission to cleanse Saidin. (It's frankly masterful that he made the chapter where he recruits Nyneave an Elayne POV chapter and she enters the room just as the conversation with Nyneave and Lan is wrapping up and then immediately they go into seemingly more important events like their love scene and the bonding). Fain also stabbed Rand prior to this point in Crown of Swords IIRC and gave him the double wound. What I would have done would be to add just ONE more detail to Rand's plan. That to cleanse Saidin he would need ALL of Mashadar/Shadar logoth IN the city if he was going to be successful. So, what I'd have changed is that Over the course of the book prior to Winter's Heart, add a few chapters that hint that Rand is getting an impression of where Padan Fain is in relation to himself and let the reader piece together that somehow the dagger has transferred a fraction of this finding ability Fain has, into Rand so that Rand has a vague impression of where Fain is at all times. Flash forwards to Winter's Heart and Rand hiding in Far Madding, Fain is there and attacks and the same events happen except that the trap Rand and Lan suspected they were walking into was ACTUALLY an intentional disinformation ploy for Fain. I would have Rand invite some loyal Ashaman to the city (perhaps Logain and a few others just cause i like giving him screentime) and "let slip" to them that he's got something important planned, then individually because he doesn't trust them, seed information similar to Tyrion in Game of thrones that indicates that when he leaves far madding he will appear in a different place that he tells each of them for this "big plan" then he uses this new ability of his dagger wound to pinpoint where Fain shows up and he is able to look directly where Fain travelled to as if he was bonded to him like a warder. This reveals a darkfriend ashaman to Rand who then makes him a personal guard and allows him to eavesdrop with Lan that he will be cleansing Saidin at Shadar Logoth and the ashaman will report this to Fain (This dialogue can be vague to keep the audience in suspense as long as they know that the ashaman is being fed info to give to Fain). After this, events play out exactly as before except that at Shadar Logoth Rand can feel his wound pulse and we see Fain sneaking up behind him slowly pulling his dagger and as he is about to plunge it into the kneeling Rand's back, he finds his hand immobile and he lets out a shriek as the saidin with the taint of the dark one burns his hand and he looks wildly around in a daze to see Logain step from the darkness of a crumbling building as he is lifted into the air and the dagger drops to the ground, its ruby hilt glittering in fury. And Rand, having gathered all the darkness of Shadar logoth into one place begins to funnel Saidin through the city and through Padan Fain himself who cries out in pain and fury as the darkness within his body surges to face the darkness of the dark one and his body is slowly torn apart by the power of the Choden Kal's Saidin as Nyneaves weave of Saidar settles over him and the shadows of the city seems to dim as it retreats towards the centre point and buildings crumble to dust around them as it centres on Fain, immobile but thrashing in the air against the weaves of air, but he drops to the ground panting as Logain temporarily loses his grip on saidin and he looks down at his hands in astonishment as he feels the taint purge itself from the power and slowly the crippled and burned fain crawls towards his dagger and his hand falls to rest on the ruby encrusted hilt as he coughs, everything going silent and rand and nyneave standing and looking at him in disgust, and the last thing Fain does is bark out a coughing fit of laughter at Rand as if thinking of some joke that only he was in-on before his hold of the hilt loosens and he dies of his injuries and we close the scene with the ruby on the dagger's hilt fading to a dull and dark red putting an end on both the city and Fain forever.

[@NaeBlis]

Love this

[@danielbroome5690]

@@NaeBlis thanks, I do also enjoy using him in the endgame somehow, but RJ was clearly running out of ideas for Fain around this point in the books so it seemed logical to take out Fain around Winter's Heart in a way that was still able to directly guarantee victory in the end. This way he still serves that purpose and Fain himself essentially kills the taint on Saidin and at the end of his life realizes that Rand beat him at his own game by becoming the hunter not the prey.

[@marcob1729]

@@danielbroome5690 this is great, and I totally agree: RJ had run out of ideas with what to do with Fain. Unfortunately, he seemed to be stuck in a cycle of not ending story lines by around the time that Fain's should have ended

[@jugies01]

Agreed- loved how it was easy to forget about him at points in the story, and thought that was really setting up to have a huge roll in the final book. Was underwhelmed by his death.

[@subdragon007]

Fain was meant to be forgotten about. Just like the main characters forgot.

[@donbrady7321]

That still image of Padan Fain which showcases this particular video is really creepy. Love it! I wonder where it came from🤔

[@chastealford5968]

I like the idea of Fain becoming the new dark one that has a source of power that people might try to exploit after they have forgotten or disregarded the mistakes in the past. The turning of the wheel. I wish there was a way for, when they tried to access this power, I woke up the dark one

[@allenbird]

Padan Fain is one of my favorite characters in all the books. thank you for this.

[@Reoh0z]

I believe the new Padan also has the royalty rights to his whistle tune.

[@travishighbaugh5245]

I miss you making videos like this my dude. You are the best Wheel of Time youtuber for me.

[@MrBdl32]

I think you are right, he was wasted, but mostly because Jordan didn't finish the books and didn't left enough notes for Sanderson to get a proper grasp of the character and how to continue his story, Sanderson basically hid the character under a rug until a very unsatisfactory ending, which should have been much more grandiose, considering he was basically the impersionation of the other half of the evil power.

[@jeffbergstrom]

I had hoped for more from Padan Fain's story. He was a great wild card that not enough was done with.

[@egmccann]

Yeah, Fain was an interesting villain, full of possibilities. I think a better ending for him would have been having him at the battle where Rand and Nynaeve cleansed the male half of the source - since he's related to what would be a crater - and either have him fighting that somehow, or having its destruction make him even more of a threat to all sides.

[@Namron9797]

1. Rand could have convinced Padan to help him kill the dark one since he changed him. Since the prophecy states Rand will die, Padan sees and end to both causes of his suffering. Rand could have then tricked Padan and locked him in with the Dark One, getting rid of 2 evils that will always battle eachother, just like his wounds. And it keeps the dark ones eye off of the world. 2. Have the Dark One demand one of the Forsaken impersonate Rand during the last battle to confuse people. Then Padan runs into him and begins fighting. It's a tough fight so he releases Mashadar. The forsaken uses balefire the exact moment he is touched by Mashadar causing them both to be burned from the pattern.

[@novengeance8119]

The white board presents a difficult choice, cause on one hand I would love to talk with Padan Fain, and on the other, I really like Cadsuane.

[@hunterwolf6646]

Give me some defenses and I'll be in a room with Fain any day. You did not put 'with the dagger' so we'll assume he don't have it

[@pthomas1967]

I’m just disappointed that it’s only a year. 😂

[@zane4575]

Fain intrigued me the most, the way he pinned the fade on the barn door was shocking to read.... and then nothing. A damn waste of a character.

[@ChrisHobson916]

I have to agree 100%. I expected Fain to be there when Rand confronted the DO. The way the wounds reacted with each other seemed so important. I also expected he would be sealed in with the DO. My expectations were probably due to reading too many theory threads on WOTmania when the books were coming out. 😂

[@karlmiller7188]

Very good assessment!

[@tsuritsa3105]

I couldn't even remember how he died, or what he had done after he left Tar Valon, which tells me that his story faded and petered out for me without satifying resolution.

[@wolfbrother795]

It would have been kool to see if, in the later books, fain was able to make a foresaken do his bidding. With the way his story ark ended… I would have been more happy if had he never had mashidar powers and have him battle with mat or Perrin. But not die. And then still have the pull towards Rand in rand’s new body.

[@NaeBlis]

That would have been so cool. If Padan Fain had corrupted a forsaken and became a much bigger deal

[@marcob1729]

I had assumed Fain would've appeared during a pivotal moment in the battle with the Dark One and maybe there would have been some sort of The Fly/teleporter mutation event when Rand accidentally tried to seal them at the same time. It's annoying that one of the story arcs that spanned the entire series ended up so anticlimactically

[@abigailslade3824]

Personally I alway felt how Padan Fain died was perfect when you consider the taveren effect Mat was meant to find the dagger and go through all that early trauma in order to lead to him being immune to its effects and thereby being the downfall of Fain. ThT being said Fain could have been a bigger part of the story between his attack on Rand and the last battle.

[@cyruspalmer98]

Fair point

[@abigailslade3824]

@@cyruspalmer98 thanks

[@brandonchristian9600]

I feel like RJ didn’t know what to do with him in the back half of the series. I know Brandon has said that RJ left no notes on him. (this comment left before watching)

[@santagonewrong]

So, I was always really fascinated by the idea that Padan Fain was not a normal part of the pattern for this Era, but was unique to this time through. He seemed to be a sort of wild-card outside of both the standard struggle between the Shadow and the Light and I had always figured his role was going to have to do with that fact disrupting or breaking the Pattern in some way. Like, we're kind of presented with only two options throughout most of the series - the Dark One destroys reality, or the cycle continues and everything repeats (I do realize there was a third considered at the end - that of Rand killing the Dark One, but that wasn't really talked about earlier on). I'd figured Padan Fain was the key to a third option. That he was going to interfere with the Final Battle at just the right moment and do something so world-changing that the Pattern couldn't adapt and we would wind up going down a totally new path that wasn't the cycle at all. I didn't know what that action was going to *be*, mind you. But that was my thinking for his role.

[@materialsdan]

I think fain should've perished during the cleansing, closing the arc of shadar logoth

[@Adam_okaay]

Johanna Meyers did an excellent job as Padan Fain, but Rafe still did Fain dirty by not clearly making him a threat until the end, and also not showing him as a more successful merchant than some sketchy ass fence.

[@StannisHarlock]

When you do the math, Fain was a let down, and the Great Lord was a let down, but if you put the two together, as you almost suggested in this video, it really could have been something. Since Fain was something that had never happened in any turning of the wheel, it would have been a worthy twist for Rand to Kill the Great Lord as he had intended throughout aMoL, and then have Fain live forever as the new manifestation of evil.

[@DRAMATICA1100]

I do think Fain was under utilized. I think it would have been interesting to see the effect he would have on the Ogier. You can’t channel in a Stedding, but could Fain use his power? Also, I’d totes put up with Cadsuane for a year than an HOUR with Fain.

[@KnifeHand]

I would have loved if Fain went the Riddick route and became the crucial factor in Rand Defeating the Dark One. Finally make Fain choose between the one he was forced to track and the one who made him the Hound in the first place.

[@amirsyoutube9518]

Felt he was the only competent villain and was disappointed in his character’s resolution. He represented total chaos, and I think that idea could be explored more deeply.

[@rainbowsprinklez]

I don't know about you, but I am happy we got significantly less spoilers this time around. For S1, we pretty much knew episode by episode. I never realized just how much spoilers were ruining my enjoyment. Which is really nobody's fault but my own.

[@briangemmet3567]

Shadar Logoth and Mordeth was one of the scariest parts in the series imo

[@wyvern723]

By the end of the series... I think there's a point where it seems like Jordan/Sanderson just didn't know what to do with him. also... Cadsuane... no question.

[@evilemuempire9550]

I kinda feel like Fain was lost in a sea of more important villains. Like you have all of the forsaken, the Dark One, Slayer, Taim, various dark friends, and to more or less extents Cadsuane, the Seanchan, the Aiel, the White Cloaks and Elida. I’m sure I’m forgetting some less important villains, but the point is that all those villains have a lot more connection to the world and plot than Fain did.

[@baardseth82]

Fain's ending was definitely a little bit meh, but overall I still loved him as a character. I'm excited that they will have a chance to reimagine the character for the Amazon series. So far, I'm pretty happy with how they've portrayed him, but he hasn't hit rock bottom yet, so they've got a long way to go. Overall, I wouldn't say he was wasted. He just ended up being a persistent minor villain rather than a major one. Great video!

[@leescience]

absolutely... i really wanted him to become the new Dark One... i really thought he was Moridin... his evil had both the old types and created a new evil. .. his end was disappointing to me

[@MrJethroha]

I'm surprised I'm not the only who thought Fain would 'become' the dark one! He always seemed pure evil in a way the foresaken never did. They were supervillains, but still human, while fain was like a manifestation of malice and destruction. He is kind of a direct foil to Rand in that he is two men in one body driven insane by the taint, but he's rarely used to his fullest. He had ta'veren-like effects on others in the way he corrupted them, could assume control of trollocs at will, and basically kill anything he got close to. I thought it'd be cool if he worked his way up to corrupting the foresaken and using them like Damane, and maybe being the leader of the Last Battle hunting Rand to the very end.

[@maxieprimo2758]

Fain was so perfectly creepy and cool and interesting, and was probably supposed to be there as a "backup Dark One" as we've all heard a billion times (for good reason, it's a good theory, like Logain or Demandred as backup Dragons). Having him amass a Trolluc zombie army and killing Myrdraal with a touch was crazy, and his few appearances in the last few books felt like buildup to something crazy, but then Mat just kinda kills him with no problem. He should have done *something.*

[@quinnpd]

Cadsuane probably knows some tricks.

[@kathryncainmadsen5850]

Inktar let him out? Wow. I missed that. I always thought it was Liandrin.

[@benhuether5474]

I do not consider him a wasted villain because I still believe that there is a deeper meaning behind his death scene. Besides, RJ already wrote the epilogue for A Memory of Light which tells us the aftermath of him being killed by Mat. So, letdown or not it’s still accurate to Jordan’s original vision.

[@anitareasontobelieve378]

Padan Fain is the embodiment of the Dark One.

[@g2024_]

What’s happened to the chapter reads & breakdowns

[@bobok5566]

It is difficult to sustain a character arc and a plot line with a truly insane individual. Once you lose rational cause and effect, you are left with more chaos than purpose. It would have been interesting if RJ had taken this multi-partitioned villain and given him a partitioned mind that could maintain sanity enough to steer the otherwise insane entity to great works.

[@kathryncainmadsen5850]

Fain should have fought Rand to be the one to “kill” the Dark One. Fain always hated what he had become and blamed Rand for that, but at the end he should have helped Rand by accident because Ta’veran.

[@hunterwolf6646]

I would have put him with that mist at its strongest and just killing everyone left and right, ruining plans for the Dark and the Light. Get him almost to Rand because he wasn't even close in the book. Make him almost nick Thom with the dagger, then Matt show up and say something like 'This started with me and that dagger, now my luck will end that dagger' or something like that. And some explination for the dagger disappearing--no ties physically anymore, the place was cursed. No Shadar Logath, no Fain/Mordeth now he is dead, therefore the dagger also vanishes after being rejected by Matt. I also wanted a stronger temptation from Matt then 'eh.'

[@brutusmaximumus]

Just finished the series, and for the last X books, I kept asking where's Fain?? A dark friend who swears to kill Rand, just vanishes :/

[@ampictish8052]

Agree, totally. Both the light and dark groups should have had to adjust to Fain. A forsaken should have died at the hands of Fain. The dark should have made plans to remove Fain from the board out of fear. One of the major characters on the side of the light should have died too. Perhaps Rand and Moridin team up to take out Fain. He should have been a major chaos actor opposite to Matt’s luck.

[@hawaiiantimes7702]

He could’ve been the agent smith to neo. What an anticlimactic ending for him.

[@myerr21]

I was soooo soooooooooo disappointed in the way they jobbed out Fain. Why was he given to Mat and not Perrin?

[@hiredgoon93]

I definitely think that Padan Fain was a wasted villain. He was another character that Jordan set up and then didnt know what to do with. Such a shame because I find the the idea of Padan Fain becoming the next Dark One really compelling.

[@33jamesds]

To be fair, I don't think it's that Jordan didn't know how to end his story.....it's that he died before he had a chance to properly develop that ending. I'm guessing the rough, vague outline he had for Sando wasn't what he would have ultimately turned out, had he lived long enough to properly develop the ending, moment by moment. I've only done a little bit of amateur writing in my own life and free-time, but I can say comfortably that there's a huge difference between when you start planning something, when you start writing something, and what you finally turn those initial ideas and drafts into on the backend. I know you don't mean it as a harsh criticism of Jordan or anything, but I do think the extreme circumstances make it fair to say we didn't get the ending we otherwise likely would have. That's not to say we can't be constructively critical of what was wrong with the ending, but I just don't think it's fair to attribute that to things Jordan may or may have not had answers to while he was still planning and drafting.....and dying.

[@lexieve8673]

Padan Fsin was a TOTALLY wasted character! They should have done so much more! Should have dedicated full chapters to him instead of that Male Channeler who could only make Portals. It passed me off how little Fain did in The Last Battle!!!!!

[@Gamedaughter1]

At 10:14 ish you mention a link about Mordeth but I don't see one.

[@sneakyspyder07]

I choose Cadsuane lol. Padan Fain creeps me right the hell out. XD

[@kathryncainmadsen5850]

I am not sure he stands alone. That Luke-Slayer guy…

[@justinthislife]

He was suited to his purpose. Think on what would have happened if he wasn't there. Prophecies wouldn't haven't been fulfilled, Intgar wouldn't have sacrificed himself, you wouldn't have had all the branches of what could have been, machinations in Amador, the rebellion in Tear. If he didn't wouldn't Rand, Rand would have never cleansed Saidan. Maybe his end was a problem but again suited to its purpose. Mat coming in to stop him, one of the three helping seal the prison.

[@shara1979]

Padan Perm the new look!

[@kathryncainmadsen5850]

Keep calm AND WHAT?.?.??!!??

[@taliefer16]

His ending was a big letdown. I was never a fan of the "altnernate DO" theory some people had tho, where Fain was being sort of prepped to take over as a new Dark One. I liked him being sort of a wild card and amalgamation of different evils. I'm not sure what I would have liked to see, besides just something better than we got. maybe some of teamup with or among the forsaken to take him out because hes a threat to everyone. I really think Jordan missed the chance to tie up Fain's arc when Shadar Logoth was destroyed during the Cleansing. That seems like it would have been an appropriate time and place to finish off Fain.

[@zayx08]

it would have been interesting if Fain was The Prophet considering his change in language is a heavy case of multiple personalities and at the Last Battle most of his followers would have been normal people tricked to fight for the Dark One...let's see if Mat can manage this tactic

[@tylerbarnick8750]

Padan Fain in the start of WoT: I am a mirror of the corruption by the dark one. Fain later in the series: Ooh look at me licking this knife, hahahahaha ooooga booga!

[@hotsaucesteve3433]

After the first few books he really didn’t do much.

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

Difficult to say. I sometimes feel like Fain should have died with Shadar Logoth, or undergone a significant transformation at that point to keep him a bit more relevant to the overaching story. For example, when the Forsaken start travelling there, maybe one of them travels to Fain, and punts him through a gateway into the battle in an effort to have him go straight for Rand and act as a distraction for the defenders. But the move goes arse over tit, Fain manages to plant the seed of SL's corruption in one of the Forsaken and he comes back into more prominence in the story gouing forward that way.

[@GeeksandGrub]

I read the board as "Cadsuane's Sexual Simian" and got really confused...

[@WalkerRileyMC]

I think it's just Sanderson not understanding how to write WoT. Still stand by my personal opinion he was the very wrong person to write the last books. He showed a severe lack of understanding on the character growth of several key players and in some cases (Mat) ignored a full ten books worth of character development. With Fain, he really had no idea what to do with him, so opted to do nothing.

[@cyruspalmer98]

Sigh.... cadsuane. One day would be more than enough for mordeth to corrupt me with his evil, or just kill me with a mist and turn my carcass into a zombie killing machine.

[@jeffelliot8064]

I think the best thing for him to have done would be to kill Ishamael/Moridin. Hear me out. Ishamael was the one who originally controlled Fain and chose him to be his hound. Fain hates the shadow because of his own choice, and hates Rand because the shadow makes him. If he cut a swath to the bore, had everyone at his mercy and was about to kill Rand with the dagger. Then Fain breaks through his madness, struggling against the dark ones touch, mordeth, machin shin, and everything to instead stab Ishamael/Moridin to allow Rand to win their clash. Rand would then go on to use the evil inside Fain to help seal the dark one. The bore would be sealed, but Fain would be bound eternally to the spot, both as a guard of honor, and an example of "One can not walk so long in the shadow, they can no longer find the light". A sacrifice bound to the wheel for all time, and the ultimate use of the dark one's tools (Specifically his first hound who started everything) against him.

[@crookedevolution]

I'd do anything to please Cadsuane. Anything. I'd argue Fain's greatest moment is when he stabs Rand with the dagger. Almost kills him, and contributes to his understanding of how to approach cleansing Saidin. But overall, definitely a waste.

[@pstonge123]

Fain=Dark Ta’veren….shit happens in the pattern. Great vid dude. 🍻

[@terrymetzger9909]

12 forsaken?

[@jayb8934]

Not to criticize because I think that Sanderson did a great job ending the series overall, but it's like Fain was just an afterthought. Like he spent 300 pages describing the Last Battle and Rand's confrontation with the Dark One, and then he's just like, "Oh yeah, and Padin Fain died too... Um... let's just say Mat stabbed him. The end".

[@paulramble7687]

Can we say it was also wrapping up. BS had to finish it, his writing is faster paced than RJ. I'm not tarnishing BS's writing skills all I'm saying is. He's faster paced. If it was upto RJ I wouldnt be surprised if the books were at least another 2 more.

[@jamesderosa2041]

Twelve Forsaken?

[@G-Loheem]

Brandon Sando dropped the ball there. Hopefully they change that up

[@davidbowles7281]

There was no time. Multiple plot threads had to be just dropped because Jordan went off the rails.

[@kathryncainmadsen5850]

Cadsuane for a year or ANYTHING would be better than being alone with Fain.

[@stevenhernandeznon-profitf968]

1000000% agree

[@williammontgrain6544]

I'll take a day with Fain, since I could just beat him into submission. One Power or not, there would be no such luck with Cadsuane.

[@calebtatro6512]

Cadsuane’s se…… DON’T THREATEN ME WITH A GOOD TIME

[@robertjackson6917]

He was the anti Moriane. Agreed it was a waste. But I loved that was going to Rand and then the Dark. That's a crazy creepy Mo fo.

[@mad0813]

I agree he was wasted but I don't think it's anyone's fault. Yes I think if Jordan lived longer we would have had a better ending for him but with his passing I feel Sanderson did the best that he could with what he had to work with.

[@frodofraggins]

Absolutely. But I'd say the Forsaken being brought back from the dead multiple times was a far bigger problem. I understand how it was done in the series, I'm just not a fan of that trope.

[@frankb5586]

There was no Time!!!....The story outgrew him.... Maybe if RJ was given the time to write 5 book.. Maybe..... But by book 12 the plotlines had to be consolidated regardless of how many books were left.....Both he & Slayer were excess baggage that caused major Yawns in the last 3 books.....BS should have killed him off earlier..... I did....

[@silasclayton7777]

I was angry by what was done with Fain. The "last battle" fell flat.

[@kathryncainmadsen5850]

Sanderson wrote dialogue better but I was disappointed in the endings for LOTS of characters. Nynaeve and Moiraine TOTALLY wasted. They were just power uteruses for Rand. Fain at least had agency, even at the end.

[@logansfury]

I believe I'd rather spend a day locked up with Panan Fain. If I had to be stuck with Cadsuane for a year I'd cough up a lung.

[@kght222]

cads is a green, she is probably pretty creative in the sack.

[@TathagataMitraTom]

I wish his ending could have been slightly more epic... Like the Gollum and Slayer