Paddle Corruption, LAWSUITS, and Fighting for This Game That We All LOVE #61

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Get free access to our ATTACKING MASTERCLASS so that you can attack like the pros and be the most dominant player on the court: www.brionespickleball.com/AttackLikeThePros

[@kellenoneill2050]

I think this was one of the most interesting episodes of the podcast. I don't agree with Mike on everything, but he is clearly really passionate about the game and has thought a lot about the topics he discussed. Really like how he follows thoughts to their full conclusion rather than staying on the surface and keeping answers simple and safe.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Thanks!

[@PickleballPrime-v2n]

I know Matt Fisher personally from PPA and cash game tournaments in our home state of AZ. I have to say, he is not only a phenomenal player, but a great human being. He is always mentioned amongst the top 25 best players in AZ. All the love Matt!

[@BrionesPickleball]

👊🏼

[@Mr.DJones]

How can he be a great human being when he is freeloading off his parents, doesn't care about them, and takes advantage of them. That is NOT a great human being. His own words.

[@PickleballPrime-v2n]

@@Mr.DJones I hear you, but can you please help me to understand your statement “doesn’t care about them”? Not sure where you got that idea from.

[@Mr.DJones]

@@PickleballPrime-v2n He is living at home, he said his parents don't really want him there. Does he pay rent? Basically, he is freeloading off his parents. And for anyone who does that, they could care less about them. JMO. :)

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Tough crowd lol

[@rogerhook8002]

Don't know much about either of you. Heck, I'm new at pickleball. I sure like the perspective expressed toward people who aren't as fortunate as some of us. In reality, the only thing that matters are people. Thanks for the conversation.

[@shelbylangston329]

Matt might be interested in Brian Cain's mental performance coaching. At Matt's level everyone is good. What separates the best from the rest is mental performance.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

👍🏻

[@tonym753]

Best podcast I have heard regarding power paddles. I played today where my partner and the opponent’s played with gearbox power paddles. I played with a gen 2 paddle. I felt like I brought a knife to a gunfight. There’s no way to stop power from being produced. The game is already going more to group play with players not using the gearbox or jolla. Another answer is to label courts gen3 and above and other courts gen 2 and below.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

lol thanks !

[@catr4030]

I like this idea. Everybody should be happy.

[@DraconianMeasures]

weird dude but interesting and important topic. kinda cool to see just an honest conversation with not a whole lot more to it.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

lol thanks

[@NewsPickleballBz]

The UPA-A is looking at setting the paddle base fee at 100K, not the USAP, which is the current certifcation non-profit. UPA-A is owned by same person that owns PickleballCentral, PPA, and MLP. As most people play under USPA rules they can continue to cerifiy paddles and keep the fees low. The UPA-A can do their own, but most people don't need UPA-A certified paddles.

[@ajones68]

But it keeps the small companies out of the pros which decreases publicity and advertising.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

We’ll have to see how this pans out

[@Nix27.]

In my opinion, the way they should regulate paddles at the highest level is to 1. Test the paddle at the start of the tournament with multiple scientific tests to see if it's legal. 2. After they test it, they need a permanent way to mark that specific paddle, e.g: a permanent marker on the edge of the paddle that says "LEGAL" this will ensure that after the tournament, the administrators will know that, that was the paddle they tested. 2. Test the paddle again at the end of the tournament to make sure it passes all the same tests as the first time, if it doesn't, that paddle needs to immediately be banned from the approved paddle list for every top-level tournament forever, the paddle is illegal and should not be allowed if it has such a serious change/reaction to temps, contact with the ball etc.... 3. This is where people may disagree you have two options (A) the player who played with the illegal paddle keeps their win and their standings (B) the player loses their win(s) and is removed from that bracket, if they are playing again in mixed after doubles they are fine and just have to pass the same tests as the first time. This seems full proof to me. But if you see any flaws, comment them.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Yes, problem is many paddles would fail, and pros wouldn’t have anything to play with lol

[@Nix27.]

@BrionesPickleballPodcast Yeah, true. I think a lot of that should be the pros' job to find a paddle that isn't cheating. I'd rather pros be out a paddle than for the corporations to continue to make illegal paddles that create unfair advantages for their players, which in turn make them hundreds of millions of dollars.

[@owenallenaz]

In table tennis paddles are tested right before the match. The test is not based on the deflection or anything like that, it's based on easily measurable values such as weight, dimension, width and the presence of easily identifiable chemicals. The paddle and rubber have to be pre-approved so then pre-competition testing isn't based on performance, it is simply to make sure it is free of alteration from what was sold. It's up to the certification committee to perform the necessary random tests to ensure that they random off the shelf paddle always pass the tests. It is not sufficient to test a paddle once and say it's good forever, paddles need to be randomly purchased and tested intermittently outside a competition environment and if a company is caught using 1 paddle for testing and selling another paddle, that's a serious offense which could take an entire companies product line out of approval. Every sport mandates equipment meets standards from baseball to tennis to hocky, you can't get rid of standards.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Thanks for the insight

[@mra3373]

I don't really care about pro PB because of all that you're speaking of - but it is interesting. What it will come donw to is the unionizatioon of players, going back to what JB has brought up long ago. Howerver, as you were talking, I started thinking, let everyone cheat and then it's a level playing field, except for the players who don't have access to the power that some o fthe companies have - and then you addressed that particular point. Now my prediction. Suppose with eye protection, ALW gets injured by a James Ig or Daescu - at that time PB will do something about regulating PB. But until a top girl player, is injured by one of the guys, the parties will continue to war due to their pride. At the rec level, no one will care. Use whatever paddle you can muster up. Anarchy PB already exists at the rec level.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Thanks for the input!

[@jamesforrestal8206]

Play at your own risk. safety goggles highly recommended but not mandatory. Strong hard hitters can be hazardous no matter what type of paddle they use

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

True

[@andrewlenz]

Hi Jordan! (It’s been years since met you and your wife briefly at the Golden State Championships-six years ago to be exact. And you were a busy dude!) First off, I listened to this as a podcast in my car. I kept having to turn Matt up and you down. And I think you need to adjust the gain on your mic, it’s clipping when you talk louder than it can handle. Just some recording feedback/input. (No pun intended!) Ok. Matt and I agree on some things. But not others. I believe there is a BIG difference between USA Pickleball and UPA-A. USAP has been around for decades as a grassroots nonprofit seeking to grow the sport. Yes, there are paid staff now, but there are a boatload of volunteers. UPA-A is operated by for-profit companies… the millionaires who want to control our sport top to bottom. To me, it seems they are acting like greedy spoiled men mad because USAP told them “no”, so they started their own competing governing body. We don’t need another governing body. We have one and, sure there are growing pains, but there is not nearly as much conflict of interest than with UPA-A which is more or less run by the big paddle companies. As for the Gearbox Gen3 paddles, there is an 18-month window after a paddle is approved by USAP before it can be delisted. (Assuming the paddle doesn’t change from the submitted test paddles, a la Joola.) I have to wonder if the clock is quietly ticking on those GB Gen3 paddles. Thanks for the interesting discussion.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Thanks man! Great thoughts!

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Those were the good old days!

[@pickleballnic]

The Diadem Vice and the Diadem Hush are both hotter than any Gen 3 paddle out right now.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Really ?

[@pickleballnic]

@@BrionesPickleballPodcast Oh yes. For sure.

[@dalevoigt8612]

Check out reviews on the Diadem Hush.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Will do

[@pickleballnic]

Imagine if the PPA Pro matches did what MotoGP and F1 do for tires, 1 manufacturer for paddles. It would never happen but it’s an interesting thought.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Pickleball is much closer to tennis…

[@JustMakeBalls]

I want to join the Anarchy Pickleball Club. We need a team t-shirt. As an old tiny woman, I returned my Gen 3 as others were complaining…only to play against 20 year old tennis men using them against me who refuse to give them up. Joola, UPA, unmonitored testing methods, are creating an unfair playing field. What’s going on is unethical. Smaller companies won’t survive which is a shame.

[@adamscott796]

You should NOT be playing against 20's year old tennis men. They would destroy you even if they play with Perseus Gen 1/2. My son is a 11.5 UTR tennis player, and he is automatically a 5.5 DUPR pickleball player after one week of playing PB.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

lol. Let’s go!

[@jeraldjaffee3920]

I have not heard about Gearbox failing. They sponsor very few pro’s. Matt stated that he’d “had” played with Gearbox. I understand Joola. Gearbox paddles have never been banned. It seems like he has a bone to pick with Gearbox.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Not totally sure, it’s just his opinion.

[@jeffsingletary1876]

One, how will the game advance and be promoted without money? The level of the pro game has greatly increased now that many of them are able to play full-time. This is good for the game. Two, every sport has regulations for the equipment they use. Yes it is an issue. A big one. People need to get together and figure this one out. Three, and I agree it should be done without crushing small business competition.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

👍🏻

[@FredAllenBurge]

Why do paddle regulations even exist? What problem are they attempting to solve? I like the anarchy pickleball concept. Let the manufacturers make what they want and let the PEOPLE choose (with their dollars) what paddles they want. If one or two become most common because they are the most powerful then so be it, what's the issue? If you want to compete at the highest levels you always have to invest in the best equipment so that would not change. Competition and innovation among manufacturers would thrive which is good for everyone. Let's end the whole paddle regulation concept completely.

[@afterthesmash]

You've never seen a situation where the failure to regulate ended badly? Weird. Do you have a window in your house, or do you live in a windowless basement? This is from 2010, and it is an extreme example, but it illustrates the concept, which you don't seem to be familiar with, in your unusually dark place of abode. From The Guardian: The annual sauna world championship in Finland has been called off after a Russian man died after spending six minutes enduring a temperature of 110 C. Vladimir Ladyzhenskiy was pronounced dead after being dragged from the sauna by judges. Police were investigating the cause of death. Another competitor, Timo Kaukonen from Finland, was also pulled out and is being treated in hospital for burns. Officials said the competition will not run again.

[@FredAllenBurge]

@afterthesmash Again, what specific problem are they attempting to solve? I see no problem that current regulations even solved.

[@afterthesmash]

​@@FredAllenBurge What problem are the dimensions of the court trying to solve? What problem is the height of the net trying to solve? What problem is the rule about paddle size trying to solve? What problem is the rule about legal serves trying to solve? When the game of pickleball was invented, what got people excited about it was that it had a low barrier to entry for complete novices, coming from a wide variety of sports, or even none at all. If you started with any of tennis, badminton, ping pong, squash or racquetball you would already feel proficient at some basic skills in your first session. The game also allowed the young and old to play together while everyone had a good time. The small grandmother could play with her large grandson. A game which rewards intense physical aggression on every shot, like tennis, would never fit that bill. The whole point of the net, the small paddle, the wiffleball, and the kitchen was to create game play where a crafty player had shot options to completely neutralize brute size and strength. It starts with the 6'4" grandson not being able to consistently ace the serve against his small, wily grandmother. She's athletic, but struggles to rush in to defend a short serve that picks the outside corner. Before we had these new paddles with massive grit, you couldn't serve hard to the short corner, because you couldn't couldn't hook a fast ball to land it in bounds, given the low contact point required by the service rule. Those serves were slow and risky. The server had a good chance of hitting the ball out of bounds when aiming at the short corner, and if a clever opponent anticipates the short serve and rushes up and taps the ball crosscourt to a gap, then the service side is already in big trouble. So granny could basically wait at the baseline for a booming serve which the wiffle ball slows down enough for her to handle confidently. She lofts the ball to the back 2 feet of the service side. They have to wait back there for the bounce. She runs up to the net beside her partner. They form a wall. Her burly grandson can drive to drive it right through her from nearly 30 feet away. He can't crush it without a tonne of topspin, and even then he has to hit it low to the net. So granny just needs to hold her paddle just above the height of the net cord, and point the tip of her paddle at the ball, and she will be able to flip the ball deep again, mostly using the power that's already on the ball. Her grandson knows he needs to move forward to the net, so he takes a step forward to meet the ball. But his grandmother was crafty, so this forces him to pick up the ball barely above his shoelaces. He's now closer to the net, so there's less distance for topspin to bend the ball back down. With the new paddles, he can generate enough spin to still wallop the ball pretty hard. But his grandmother has been at the kitchen for a while now, and she's really dialed in. She knows exactly how fast and high the ball can be to stay in bounds. If faster or higher she turns away and the ball flies out of bounds. If sufficiently low and not quite so fast, she executes a rabbit punch block. She catches the ball around the height of the net cord, because the fifth shot drive from closer to the net doesn't have time to bend the ball down before the opponents get their paddle on it. She's got a lot of court to shoot at and her grandson has no time. His own pace plus being closer to the net for both ball strikes has got him into a lot of trouble. He's twenty years old, so he flexes his fast twitch and gets it anyway, in some weird pretzel contortion, but not with much attack. It's a fairly easy ball for his grandmother to flip back down into the kitchen, far too low to the net to permit an attacking shot. He bounces up the NVL, but the power game is now entirely MIA. Any hard strike of the ball from low and tight the net is a losing proposition. He's got to use his long arms and legs to gain an advantage over his grandmother before he can use his power to win the point. The WHOLE POINT of how pickleball was originally designed is that when playing against a crafty player with good tools but limited physicality, you had to first make a good shot or two in the soft game before raw power alone allowed you to take control of the rally. So we allow new paddle technology into the game where the paddles are sandpaper trampolines. Balls that used to be safe against attack-more than a foot below the net cord and well inside the kitchen-are now coming back to you at 40 mph with 3000 RPM topspin from only 12 feet away. Granny now needs eye protection, a padded top, and maybe also a bicycle helmet to stand there and admire shots she will never defend. We already HAVE that game. It's called tennis. If you want that dynamic, there are tennis courts everywhere. Grandmothers do not play tennis against their grandsons who are flexing their brute strength. So you are perfectly happy to see pickleball evolve into mini-tennis, because you can't be bothered to figure out how to nerf the equipment enough to preserve what originally made the game inviting to mass participation of everyone at the same time. You don't see any reason why sexy young people and gnarly old folks should ever do anything together in the physical dimension. The flabby old folks are already sitting on their sofas watching tennis, because tennis is a great thing to watch in you are in the vicarious stage of life, where nostalgia is your last point of contact with youthful vitality. You see no reason why the fit and athletic older folks shouldn't also sit on their couches watching tennis. Pickleball began life as a participation sport not a spectator sport. In female gymnastics, you are almost washed up by the age of 25. For hockey, you have to be something special to play hockey at the Olympics much into your early thirties. What sport can you still do past the age of 40 at the pinnacle of what appeals to the couch potato to watch rather than do? Dressage. You can ride around on a young and fit and hideously expensive dressage horse. You watch a guy doing an iron cross at the Olympics, and you don't think "I could go out there and do that". When I watch pro pickleball, before the paddles got so amped, I could parts of the dink rally as a participant, not as a spectator. Hey, I could go out there tonight and actually replicate many of those soft dinks. Executing an efficient counter to a professional speedup is totally out of range for me. I am fast enough to get a few, but the professional would be shooting ducks in a barrell. Not long ago, 75% of the pro game was dinking. If paddle technology was completely unlocked, only about 25% of the pro game would still revolve around dinking. With every new paddle generation, the balls you can speed up get lower and lower and closer to the net. What was wrong with tennis is that it encouraged all the old people to sit on the couch oohing and awing over impossible feats of physicality while themselves becoming fat and flabby. What was possibly a bad thing about more than half of America becoming sedentary, obese, and isolated homebodies already up to one knee into the quagmire of metabolic disorder? Thank you, tennis, for being so awesome to watch while I sit here eating my buttery popcorn. No thank you, pickleball, for _also_ becoming so awesome to watch while the professionals attack each other relentlessly with newly unregulated paddle technology, as I sit here eating my buttery popcorn. When the professionals are forced by the structure of the game to spend 75% of their time making delicate precise shots (with supreme precision) that ordinary people could actually image also doing themselves, it's better for the world that I want to live in. I also enjoy the 25% of the time they engage in hand battles at speeds I could never possibly replicate. Unregulated paddle technology will instantly invert this, so that the professionals are doing merely mortal shots only 25% of the time, while doing iron cross shots the other 75% of the time. I don't want that world. But you clearly have a laissez faire view of the structure of life. How is that working for America these days? There's mounting evidence that it is turning America into a s-hole country. From deregulation to dysregulation to Family Feud. Fetch the buttery popcorn as Rome burns. That's all we've got left now, because we can't be bothered to abide by rules that only seem to complicate the moment, because the moment is the only thing we notice any more. The world is looking at America, and because of this attitude, America looks ripe for the taking.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Thanks!

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

For the comment!

[@Golden_Fire_Chariots]

Easy fix, whos with me? 1) start your own league 2) overhead serves are legal. 3) sand paper paddles are legal. 4) run great tourneys, with much better payouts. 5) produce quality paddles at much cheaper rates.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

I agree with half of these lol

[@yoshig4824]

What is a joola 2.5? A mod?

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Yes

[@YanickLegault-f8n]

Less focus on regalateing paddle and more on refree calling tne balls would serve the game better at this point of time

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

True….

[@Masterdebator881]

Anarchy solves everything!

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Maybe

[@russbilderback]

What is anarchy pickleball?

[@HowieB-isMe3885]

Wr2 softening the ball, then it would not bounce.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Possibly

[@HowieB-isMe3885]

So why do smaller companies need to pay $100K to get their paddles approved if it’s all bs anyway.!!!

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Crazy

[@harryhoople1684]

I'm unsure why Briones gave voice to a person who might be an aspiring pro, but brings very little to the table except his strange opinions. Anarchy pickleball?? Has he spoken with any USAP or UPA-A official? Has he visited a paddle testing facility? Does he have a business degree? Does he understand the structure of non-profits? Has he ever been employed by a non-profit? Has he ever been employed by anyone? I think Briones would have had a better podcast interviewing someone randomly picked from his local court.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Thanks, plan to have others from the other side on soon

[@afterthesmash]

Anarchy pickleball would reverse pickleball's momentum as an inclusive sport for everyone. Big demographics of players will begin to drift away. Perhaps table tennis will capitalize on the outflux of players from pickleball Thunderdome of the amped paddle. There's a point where I will refuse to play with people whose paddles are too jacked. It will begin with me becoming blaise about open play and only playing within closed cliques where I know that people aren't firing the ball at 60 mph all day long. Without open play to cultivate fresh blood, the cliques will eventually wither. RIP pickleball as a major movement. This is far from impossible.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Hope it gets better

[@jamesforrestal8206]

Even if you're a weak hitter the ball can deflect off the net and catch you right in the eye. Who's responsible? No one's responsible it's a sport. play at your own risk

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Thanks

[@EG80]

50 minutes in and just had a thought, why don't we just regulate what is used in tournaments, gather up the tournament sponsors and players and let them know what paddle will be used, it's specs, maybe why that paddle if there's a specific reason (I'm thinking paddles with pink edge guards for breast cancer awareness or something where 50% of the proceeds go to X non profit charity). Clearly we can't regulate everything about the paddles but why not regulate how clear the information of the paddle gets presented to the consumer, ex: paddle A has crazy pop and has a potentially dangerous exit velocity with not much effort needed to reach that threshold therefore paddle A needs to have a bright red edge guard or handle or some sort of easily recognizable sign that it's a hot paddle, I was thinking why not have a bright red bottom cap on the handle of the paddle, this way players just gotta show each other the bottom of their handles to know what they're up against or what they're signing up for if they decide to play against or with someone with a hot paddle. Regardless of how it's done I think we need to make it easy to just look at a paddle and be able to quickly decide on wearing eye protection or not. Btw not completely unrelated but what do we think about uncapping spin? I think it will shoot the skill ceiling way up which is bad for newcomers but maybe it doesn't matter because your average joe probably can't be a spin master? Idk I'd like to hear from others I actually don't have enough information and personal experience with lots of grit to be able to form an opinion on it

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Thanks for the input

[@bart1476]

Matt just cut the hair off. Ridiculous hair.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Lol

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Wow

[@kimleith1378]

Ball change is the answer for slowing down the game, not paddles. No expensive testing equipment or lame protocols.

[@iantercero5380]

What are you talking about. Then normal paddles will hit the ball even slower? So you’ll need hot paddles to hit a formally normal ball? That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard. The paddles are the problem. Any faster then eye pro will be mandatory.

[@kimleith1378]

@@iantercero5380 Tournaments only. That's where all the BS is.

[@BrionesPickleballPodcast]

Not sure if it’ll solve it