Pakistan: The Garrison State: Origins, Evolution, Consequences (1947-2011) | Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed

This study seeks to solve the following puzzle: In 1947, the Pakistan military was poorly trained and poorly armed. It also inherited highly vulnerable territory vis-à-vis the much bigger India, aggravated because of serious disputes with Afghanistan. Over the years, the military, or rather the Pakistan Army, continued to grow in power and influence, and progressively became the most powerful institution. Moreover, it became an institution with de facto veto powers at its disposal to overrule other actors within society including elected governments. Simultaneously, it began to acquire foreign patrons and donors willing to arm it as part of the Cold War competition (the United States), regional balance-of-power concerns (China), and ideological contestants for leadership over the Muslim world (Saudi Arabia, to contain Iranian influence). A perennial concern with defining the Islamic identity of Pakistan, exacerbated by the Afghan jihad, resulted in the convergence of internal and external factors to produce the ‘fortress of Islam’ self-description that became current in the early twenty-first century. Over time, Pakistan succumbed to extremism and terrorism within, and was accused of being involved in similar activities within the South Asian region and beyond. Such developments have been ruinous to Pakistan’s economic and democratic development. This study explains how and why it happened.
The discussion on “The Pakistan Garrison State: Origins, Evolution, Consequences (1947-2011)” authored by Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed will be moderated by Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy, whereas Dr. Naazir Mahmood will join him as a discussant.
About the Author:
Ishtiaq Ahmed was born in Lahore on 24 February 1947. He received a PhD in Political Science from Stockholm University in 1986. He taught at Stockholm University from 1987 to 2007, and was then invited as Senior Research Fellow and Visiting Research Professor by the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore, during 2007-2010. He is now Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University and Honorary Senior Fellow, Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. He has published extensively on Pakistani and South Asian politics. His research interests cover fields as diverse as political Islam, ethnicity and nationalism, human and minority rights, and indeed, partition studies.

[@sydneydesouza9719]

I am an 86 year Goan Indian American, Born(Lahore 1937) raised & educated in India in an Anglophone environment , lived 50 years in India - an Electrical Engineer & the then moved to the States. Even though I don’t understand Urdu I had to learn Hindi as a subject at age 13, so can understand the gist of what is being said by these gentlemen. To me the people of India & Pakistan are one & the same . My mothers brothers house in Lahore where I was born ( both Goans) whose children considered themselves Pakistanis & we Indians- but of the same blood- was I think tragic. From the trend of the discussion I seem to get the sense that ya’ll are talking about some unity between India & Pakistan. I pray to the Almighty that that may happen before my death. I will then die a happy man Sydney Desouza - A Goan Indian American Catholic now living in Georgia USA.

[@Hararyoukoz3106]

So sweet of you sir 😌 your type of person we want your of 86 age and your are thinking about this hats of sir.and I think you had alos want to vist your ansectral Lahore house , may god make your and our wishes ful fil that we will be unite and l am making pardon 🙏 that if any something to you in pakistan,I think that's why you leave? So sorry sir on behalf of the person who had hurt you at that time. Be happy and soon this will happen and may you live long life 💝

[@i_will_always_know]

Sir, I respect ur opinion, but i dont think I want such leaders in my country.. I would say good riddance n take some more from our side if u can.. Also all the people have been crying to not allow any pakistanis in their country, which includes their step father turkey as well. So.. Do we want such people in our neighborhood?? I would surely pass..

[@ArmageddonIsHere]

Very nice sentiments, but totally wrong. Sir, you've been 50 years out of touch with the subcontinent, and much water and blood has flowed under the proverbial bridges, since then. "The people of both countries are the same": they were once, pre-1947. No longer. Their paths and minds have diverged a lot. Don't believe me? See the differential treatment of Pakistanis and Indians at airports abroad.

[@whocareswhoami7278]

If you are realistic, radicalised Pakistan cannot have normal relationship with India.

[@abhayadash9658]

It will not happen, because Pak army and political class have infused 'hate' into their body and mind towards Hindus and India that a peaceful coexistence is impossible.

[@user-rv2yd1fl3k]

As an Indian Hindu with refugee family roots in Pakistani Kashmir, I say to my Pakistani brothers, may the Force be with you! May you have all of the blessings and support of God and this world as you work through these tremendous challenges being faced by your nation. May Pakistan succeed, prevail and grow to ever greater heights! God Bless all of you and all of us!

[@atulmittal5809]

My goodness!! Fantastic. When such a debate emanates from Pakistani soil, I in India remain positive on Pakistan becoming truely civilian governed nation. One may agree or disagree with the speakers, but all the three speakers were honest to the core of their hearts.🙏🙏

[@djawalikar2006]

Honest ; very true but the honesty holds good until india comes in the discussion. Even the learned speakers of pakistan whom we rever and admire, secretly wish that india would turn to a majoritarian state which it would never be.

[@SimranDhillon186]

@@djawalikar2006 modi is helping them

[@dollartreeshark6786]

@@SimranDhillon186 How so? Except the right to kill a cow and eat it, what are Muslims lacking?

[@djawalikar2006]

@@SimranDhillon186 is it Modi or the fake leftist ideology helping them ? i appreciate critical thinking and analysis is important. but just look what had become of us by over appeasement of muslims. remember Shah Bano case ? Modi is trying to make enactments by virtue of which every citizen irrespective of their creed/ believe/religion will be equal. Latest example is tripple talaq enactment.

[@Arianne3011]

​​@@djawalikar2006no one can be both sincere and yet also in denial of the fact that the Indian Regressive-Left Ecosystem is full of Islamo-Leftist Dhimmis suffering from acute Hindumisia - afterall they don't even try to hide it or pretend to be otherwise. As a result the Ecosystem is also the booming Echo Chamber of the idea according to which _"if you refuse to pander to appeasement of Muslims, especially closet-Islamists, it means you are communal (in all likelihood, a Hindu majoritarian extremist). Period!"_ ..... So don't even bother raising even the simple telltale queries such as, _"which Indian Politician (Muslim or non-Muslim) has made most significant contributions towards the upliftment of the unprivileged Muslims, especially Muslin women in India in the last 75 years?"_ since neither the mandarins nor the footsoldiers of the Ecosystem welcome intellectual rigour or honesty in arriving at their conclusions; instead they rely on already settled pre-concieved notions regarding such issues.

[@pulkitkanodia3976]

To my Pakistani friends see in comments How much we Indians appreciate talent..even when it is born in Pakistan.. irrespective of religion or nationality..

[@jamshedshaikh4619]

We know where you coming from.You cannot fool us.Get off your high horse of self righteous .You guys a bunch of bigots and it shows.

[@frontiernomad8765]

Mostly when it's critical of Pakistan lol just kidding

[@percentbigfoot]

@@frontiernomad8765 Naah, we call spade a spade in general but the good thing is that pakistan has been on the wrong end which makes our critics job easy lol

[@exposedman7753]

Madaar chot pehele apna desh ka extremist ko sambhal..aaaya gyan phelne

[@navneet8269]

Hamare har Dil Aziz doctor Muhammad doctor Pervez hoodbhoy Dr Nasir Mehmood mein Ludhiana Punjab se aapko sun raha hun yah duniya ki behtarin conversation mein se ek hai Mai FIR bad mein is per comment karunga edit karke shukriya in Aaj Kai dinon ke bad eyes edit kar raha hun

[@rizwan_bosan]

Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed, a sane voice. My teacher

[@pankabhargo]

Wow , u r so lucky to have him as a teacher , he along with dr Hoodboy are my Favourite thinkers from Pakistan

[@anandsharma9125]

You feel like keep on listening n learning from Dr Parwez Sahab and De Ishtiaq. Thank you 🙏

[@rahulgogate3580]

Listening to Dr Ishtiaq Ahmed is always a great pleasure. Superb. 🙏 from India

[@murlidharkhatkale5208]

These madcap warmongers always misguided people. Actually only power-hungry megalomaniacs were always interested in vast bloodshed and miserable life for the normal common citizens. Americans were interested in spread of war in the so called third world countries. Extreme poverty, miserable status of the general public and extremely undeveloped status of the so called third world countries. Especially warmongering western countries take this situation as funny and entertaining. Please kindly stop it being entertaining and funny situation thanks.

[@2sridhark]

Sane voices of Pakistan. Good to see Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy and DR Ishtiaq Ahmed together on a common platform.

[@amandeep9930]

Dr Ishtiyaq's work is the most significant historical work of the modern times.

[@harishnaithani1441]

Dr. Ishtiyak do believe in eslamic history as a mulla in Pakistan. He thoughts that before eslam there was gurbat and darkness is the this world. After eslam the world enlighten through eslam. This is his historical knowledge.

[@murlidharkhatkale5208]

Islam was well-nurtured after the teachings of Paigambarsahab and other well nurtured Islamic philosophers Because of new and simple religious philosophy and less importance was given to the priestly class and excellently simple and oriented Islamic philosophy easier to understand by the common simplicitic people appealed to many people. Most of religious philosophies become very complicated when the professional priestly class add lot of rituals and complicated dogmatic mayajals which are difficult to be understood by the simplicitic common people this horrible developments happened to all the religions of the world. Complicated ritualistic dogmas, mean-minded hatred towards other religions. Sophisticated religious philosophies accompanied by mutual hatred towards other cultures, religions etc. Very few religions maintain their original simple, creative, easy to understand and follow by all the poor, needy, and common unsophisticated followers. Highly accomplished leaders and their senior followers, make life for the newly entering Jigyasus easy and successful. Very few religions remain within the capacity of the new entrants. Life as it is in the competitive retrace is difficult for the newcomming entrants.the competitive exhausting retrace of the modern world makes the spiritual practice attractive and soothing all the mental anomalies and torturers. Let us hope that more advanced and simplicitically practical for all the needy jigyasus.😊

[@valvirchauhan6127]

Wow! It’s so insightful. Even after two hours felt like why it’s being stopped. Just great discussion

[@santoshagarkar6760]

I m regular listener of black hole from Mumbai ( india ) i appreciate honest efforts from team black hole, In today's session i want to mentioned this thing that in other nation's the basic needs is as follows 1) food 2) shelter 3) clothes 4) religion But in Pakistan the basic needs is 1) religion 2) clothes 3)shelter 4) food Very pathetic mindset of elites 🤔

[@krisgray1957]

BJP has made India as HINDU pakistan. Do difference between India and Pakistan.

[@annnilsson501]

Very true 🙏

[@corpsertag5967]

I think it's more like: 1) religion 2) religion 3) religion 4) religion

[@artigupta1632]

Add internet 😎

[@primordialarchetypes2927]

@@corpsertag5967 Yes, I know - same ol' ratta with both goondutva goondubabas and jihadiul barbadis......same daaku mentality

[@SanjayTiwari-bh8rd]

The handwriting of the person who has written on the black board is awesome and always attracts attention. It is always pleasant to hear Dr Ishtiaq Ahmed, today all the three stalwarts together is a bonus.

[@amanutkarsh724]

damn, mujhe laga poster hai.

[@hassanazad4627]

@@amanutkarsh724 he is an artist in residence.

[@pax10report]

delighted to see 3 intellectuals on the same platform ... best wishes from India

[@kanaka7552]

India has always stood it’s ground and refused to join any sides.And the fruits of such a stand are now being enjoyed by the present India and Inshallah more and more in the future.

[@globalgatherings1]

Thank you Blackhole for this amazing platform. The discussion was very enlighting and 2 hours seems like 20 minutes. I wish everyone could listen to such an enlighting discussion in a state where talking on such sensitive topics are infrequent.

[@waqarahmad1064]

I am an MBBS student.i got so much interested in social studies and history because of black hole that I can watch the 2 3 hrs session continuously.debates and discussion of these kinds should be promoted and encouraged every where in this country.

[@ashwinbenegal]

I’m hoping you aren’t an Indian! 😁

[@waqarahmad1064]

@@ashwinbenegal nope

[@shreeyanksinghvi7748]

Pakistan was created for landlord class that call themselves muslim, they fear nehru will start land reform so they will loose these land. all muslim league leaders were from elite class, no one was connected with general mass ,no one wanted to improve the education standard of muslim masses, they uses Islamic touch to start calcutta riot, rape of Rawalpindi, Noakhali riot,etc in return muslim masses faced bihar riot, jammu massacre, exodus of muslim from east Punjab and this led to margilization of muslim in subcontinent as india virtually lost it muslim elite class as they migrated to Pakistan and Bangladesh and they fear competition from there hindu counterpart. india successfully implemented its land reform but in pakistan hardly there was land reform. congress did right thing by accepting partition as they know they will have no control over where muslim league warlord are rulling and muslim league will use stanza of quran to start riot like calcutta riot.

[@Count.Dracula46]

O bhai apni degree kro, phir 6, 7 saal lganay beth jao gay 😂 Goli maaro social studies ko

[@awaisahmed8095]

O bhai ya kya batain ker rahay hain koi smej a rahi hai aur ya zia ul haq kay khilaf kya baqwas ker rahay hain us nay PakistAn aur afganistan ko bachaya hai

[@SubhashSharma-mr7ic]

This is the most sensible, brutally honest & objective discussion in Pak by one of the best brain & genuine well wisher of Pak. Subhash Sharma from India

[@amit9023]

He said Pakistan is democracy... And India is not... And u think it's genuine 😀

[@nitishsaxena1372]

@@amit9023 when did he say that? Right from the start they all have been saying quite the opposite. At 1:20:04, Ishtiaq sahb literally says Pakistan is a failed democracy.

[@mlg1279]

@@saqibshahud1524 Not really. As of now, India doesn't waste it's time or energy on pa-kistan.

[@motivation5044]

No one listens them in Pakistan Only duffer endians listen them 🤣

[@motivation5044]

@@saqibshahud1524 listen bro I'm a endian muslim U r very fortunate to have a country or living in a muslim country.... I want to say one thing to you that majority of Hindu 99.9% hates Pakistan and Muslims very much In india, Pakistan is a gaali... Never believe them they are highly makkar

[@desiguy5508]

Imagine if we didn't have wars and instead would have a competition with each other on economy, social status, etc.

[@roopmukherjee3006]

"We are a lost tribe" -Ishtiyaq Ahmed shaab... This is the jist of the confession in this debate..

[@gurmailbath16]

Great discussion I am big fan dr sahib Love from California 🙏🙏🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@nerdy4172]

What an insightful discussion. Dr. Ishtiaq is such an amazing thinker who always welcomes criticism and his opinions are based on thoroughly researched content. Love you sir. And pervez hoodbhoy did an amazing job as a moderator. And the other guest also gave very insightful opinions.

[@murlidharkhatkale5208]

Murlidhar Murlidhar Khatkale Khatkale Khatkale

[@ilayatshah9079]

Amazing thinkers. Thank you so much for educating our youth with truth

[@personalpr3723]

However very very few pakistani believe 5hie

[@awaisahmed8095]

O bhai ya kya batain ker rahay hain koi smej a rahi hai ya quaid azam kay hilaf kyon bol rahay hain jinhon nay PakistAn bnaya hai aur zia ul haq kay khilaf kya baqwas ker rahay hain us nay PakistAn aur afganistan ko bachaya hai koi sharam kero PakistAnis apni heros ki qader nahi kertay is liya aj ya haal hai

[@balwantrai3447]

What an excellent discussion between 3 distinguished people. It has enabled us to revisit history and the wayout of the present mess ongoing in Pak. My best wishes.

[@gulrezrana3710]

Nice name I hope you are Rajputs Balwant Rai is very famous for thing I don’t recall

[@ajitsinghees7909]

Ever since I heard your speak in Adab I am glued to my phone, hearing one speech after the other. Islam, to me, is not what one finds in Quran, Islam is what it’s followers practice. After what was done to minorities particularly Hindus in Pakistan and Kashmir can any one question Islamophobia. Can’t Pakistani , who sheltered the perpetrator of 26/11 and 9/11, guess why their VISA is rejected world over.

[@handsomepappi]

​@@ajitsinghees7909Do some research on Google to see how many Indians get their visa rejected. Hindus of India selected extremist BJP/RSS led government, can they claim to be secular or non-violent when agenda of these parties is to eliminate minorities for a greater hindu state? Irony is a majority of them say Hinduism isn't a religion even. 9/11 had questions within US pointing to this being an inside job. Attack on Iraq on fabricated accusations of WMDs and then Libya had no justification. All over the world Muslims were killed in millions but yes they're terrorists because few of them retaliated. Kashmirs are fighting for their freedom and Pakistan fully supports all means, call it whatever you like Pakistanis least bother. The fact remains that in 76 years and before India and extremist Hindus (which are in big numbers) have been obsessed with Pakistan and Muslims, will always be.

[@dr.numairsulehri4377]

​@@ajitsinghees7909w❤❤❤❤❤🎉🎉😢😮😊😊😊

[@fayazshawl7877]

Aswrwbkho Is co kahte hai andhe k haath mài lathie Failed state People are like baid bakriya Generals are puppets of usa La hawla Wala quwatah elah belah May Allah sbta guide this country people towards right path

[@thomashunter5645]

I see very few Pakistanis leave comment here. This shows a lack of interest in their history. I see a lot of Indian people here. I guess it is the level of education.

[@subhasisghosh66]

Lack of secular education in Pakistan, coupled with Islamic indoctrination

[@sibtainsonglistzafar1298]

I'm a Pakistani and I'm listening Ishitiaq sahab for many years, and when i saw the title of this video i was assure that many indians will leave their comments.

[@geetasar271]

I am here only for Dr. Ishtiyaq 👍🇮🇳

[@rossgolla876]

Taking all the resources and majority foreign revenue from East Bengal but invested in Pakistan and systematically made East Bengal as 2nd poorest part in the entire world and calling east Bengal as basket of begging before 1971, it is nonsense mindset of Pakistan. It's a misconception of Pakistani people that bengal has no cotton but Bengal was textile hub in whole Indian subcontinent before British colonial mindset came.

[@ashfaqminhas5388]

ماشاللہ بہت پیارا دل ودماغ کھول دینے والا پروگرام ھے اللہ تعالی ماجد بھائی کو عمر دراز کرے عمران ریاض ارشد شریف کی طرح ملک کو سچے عاشق ہیں جو سچائی بولنے والے کو اللہ تعالی کی طرف سے رحمت ھو

[@KhawjaAziz]

Long awaited objective discourse with undiluted truth. A refreshing and rare treat to listen to these remarkable intellectuals.

[@awaisahmed8095]

O bhai ya kya batain ker rahay hain koi smej a rahi hai ya quaid azam kay hilaf kyon bol rahay hain jinhon nay PakistAn bnaya hai aur zia ul haq kay khilaf kya baqwas ker rahay hain us nay PakistAn aur afganistan ko bachaya hai koi sharam kero PakistAnis apni heros ki qader nahi kertay is liya aj ya haal hai

[@shovasreepatnaik8462]

It is always a pleasure to listen to Dr Ishtiaq Ahmed sir. So genuine and so honest in his comment

[@murarisharma9669]

I can hear this great old man all day long!!! Thought provoking discussion!!!

[@ravimishra7618]

One of the best session I attended in my life. Thanks you all great person

[@annnilsson501]

Have Never seen disscussion on such a high level in Pakistan 🇵🇰 this gives some HOPE for the future of Pakistan people 🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰

[@mohsinafzaal7159]

Awesome discussion ❤️

[@awaisahmed8095]

O bhai ya kya batain ker rahay hain koi smej a rahi hai ya quaid azam kay hilaf kyon bol rahay hain jinhon nay PakistAn bnaya hai aur zia ul haq kay khilaf kya baqwas ker rahay hain us nay PakistAn aur afganistan ko bachaya hai koi sharam kero PakistAnis apni heros ki qader nahi kertay is liya aj ya haal hai

[@NevilleRamdeholl]

Its fascinating and strange isn't it, that Pakistan is NOW awakening to Democracy since 1947 and look at India , its a world power from its journey together with Pakistan since that time.

[@DevKulkarni]

In some ways, we have been very lucky honestly. We were lucky that Gandhi was better at dividing power within congress and beyond. We are lucky that the narrative of non-violence is very strong thanks to him. We were lucky that our constituent assembly was so varied that it was impossible to be dominated by one person, group or ideology. We were lucky that we had a people with social justice in mind like BR Ambedkar for drafting our constitution. We were lucky that Nehru was secular. We were lucky that socialism was rejected in 91. We are lucky that Pakistan messed up and that resulted in Bangladesh being a separate country. We are also lucky that inward-looking institution builders existed not just withing the government but also in civil society (like RSS and others), which enabled them build a real competitive politics. We are lucky that our army is completely under civilian control. We are lucky that social justice movements like bhudaan weren't crushed by the feudal-minded elites backed by the army.

[@WisdomBuds]

Sir, We Indian have suffered too much but never compromise against our values but invested and aligned with excellence. Now, its reflected but just started....our journey to reclaim our pie.

[@educationismust109]

Very wise intellectual discussion. Highly recommended ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ worth listening 👍

[@Prof_UpitSultan]

Biggest take away is that Pakistan is “ungovernable” since the last 6 decades. And it is very evident from the way no democratically elected Government completed its term.

[@brijrajsingh1970]

Long live dr istiyak ahmed

[@ManishKumar-fg4iy]

Hello Sir.. If anytime legends like sir dr ishtiaq Ahmed visit to your stage. Please do tell us in a little advance also.. Or u can give a upcoming guest list for at least next one week.. And try to make one folder related to viewers questions.... U can select questions according to the subject requirements.. And then ask them there with respected guest.. It's not a compulsion.. Is just a suggestion only.. I understand the black hole things is in early stage.. But for future purpose take this into your account and in memory too.. Thank you for the show.. Really liked yesterday video of Dr ishtiaq sir.

[@unknownindian6531]

One thing Pakistanis like to ignore is that the brief period of progress enjoyed by Pakistan was largely due to contribution of erstwhile E Pak

[@dhaumyaranjansarangi8555]

Very glad see this kind of discussion, learned so much thing about Pakistan internal thought, idea and politics. This is only possible because of the education, so that people don't get blind by religion and cheap politics (on both the side). Hope we leave everything past...🇮🇳

[@ShariqYousafai]

such gems in Pakistan make us more proud. an eye opening discussion. much appreciations for THE BLACK HOLE team.

[@awaisahmed8095]

O bhai ya kya batain ker rahay hain koi smej a rahi hai ya quaid azam kay hilaf kyon bol rahay hain jinhon nay PakistAn bnaya hai aur zia ul haq kay khilaf kya baqwas ker rahay hain us nay PakistAn aur afganistan ko bachaya hai koi sharam kero PakistAnis apni heros ki qader nahi kertay is liya aj ya haal hai

[@Gappasappa]

This debate will be loved by people across 🇮🇳 and 🇵🇰. Lovely to see Jinnah being considered a psychopath than the father of the nation.

[@pradeepchauhan7769]

This great discussion is listened with rapt attention in India. Do you really believe that madarsachhaap paxtanis can understand even a word of this discussion ? HATE INDIA is the ONLY glue that keeps this STATE OF MIND together howsoever battered and tattered their ACTUAL condition may be.

[@leaderofmass]

as a indian listening to these intellectuals is always treat.. these r few voices from pakistan which r really needed for growth in this region

[@piyushdas079]

The sane voices are a very tiny minority

[@sapiens4168]

Wow! That's a Great discussion. Hats off to all the three professors. 👏👏👏👏

[@mayankumar1312]

Kudos to the person Who drew the topic of discussion on the board... GREAT JOB MAN

[@mtsardar]

We have habit of sweeping 🧹 issues under the carpet

[@BM-ym5ik]

Excellent analysis and study of the ills that confront Pakistani society. Excellent minds and analytical thought. We need more of this so thst the direction Pakistan is going in can be amended.

[@kaalpaheliya]

Gazwa-e-Hind is not a fabricated but a central doctron to Islam. There are many Hadith which says about Gazwa-e-Hind. Few reference I am sharing: Sunan an-Nasa'i 3175, Sunan an-Nasa'i 1:25:3175

[@orangelays5084]

Much respect from India -What a wonderfully enlightening discussion- enjoyed it a lot and there was much to learn -

[@karamveermaan]

Brilliant people of pakistan in one show. Big fan of istiyaq sir and hudbhoy sir. We respect you lot 🙏sir from bharat.

[@rakadus]

Nearly a two hour discussion without figuring out a way to exit from the "garrison".

[@RaviSharma-fs4lc]

Suicide

[@hemkeshwani1378]

Please open questions from KZbin viewers later on in the program. Thank you Parvezbhai !

[@hansvishwanath2200]

Excellent discussion! Enjoyed throughout! Thank you!

[@harinagarajan2296]

One of the most remarkable discussions. The audience poses quite a few excellent questions. Many thanks for this post. Hari

[@rranjan3439]

A very good discussion by the wonderful panelists especially Ishtiaq Ahmed Sir ! Academic discussion of history and politics of the Subcontinent, Objective analysis as far as possible. Many lessons for a sensible listener from either side of the border for introspection and working towards peace and prosperity of the region. Rootless , identity crisis, denial of reality, absence of rationalism, not learning from own mistakes, ruling by self-centered elite class, distorted sense of Supremacy and above all religious fanaticism have driven Pakistan into this Sorry state. Self destructive obsession with Kashmir and making this obsession as the prime agenda to capture power both by civil and military establishment have only habdicapped the country and the process is still on. "Neither a democracy nor an autocratic regime..what should be the right term for the country ?"- I often wondered until I came across the terms like "Security State", "Garrison State" etc...still I doubt if these names can justify the regime of Pakistan. Standing on one of the most ancient civilizations-IVC, the Pakistanis identify and glorify themselves with the invaders; Superb Geographical location, Sitting over vast fertile land and irrigated by perennial Himalayan rivers ...the people of the country are struggling for Petrol/diesel and Wheat. Irony... it happens only in Pakistan.

[@shoaibkahut]

Great to see three thought leaders in conversation of paramount importance. Just by discussion critically we can move forward. There are lessons in history which need to be learned. Lovely to see so many 🇮🇳 Indian friends commenting here . Let's hope someday we can live as peaceful neighbors. Pakistan 🇵🇰 is near to default now and can't afford any misadventure in its backyard. We should learn from #poverty reduction measures of #China 🇨🇳 and focus on making the life of our people good.

[@ShyamKumar-zb2mw]

Shoaib saab - IN has moved much forward in the direction of making life better for its people - but a lot still remains to be done. Read recent article in Tribune by Vice-Air Marshal Shezad Chaudhary and in the article in News International by Musharaff Zaidi. To a large extent - PK's hostile intentions have been neutralized by IN's economic rise and by economic collapse of PK. Most in IN believe that PK's ill intent is still there - just that the capability is absent. Many say that if the economic conditions were reversed - PK would have already invaded IN a long time ago. 🙂 This means that for IN - PK will always remain untrustworthy. PK cozing up to China also leads to IN's fears that PK will be forced to play China's proxy. 🙂 One thing that will help address this if PK somehow liquidates or extrdiates to IN its "startegic assets" like Hafeez Saeed, Dawood Ibrahim, Masood Azar and their ilk. That could signal a change of heart in PK - but that seems very unlikely that it will happen. IN can easily traverse into its future by ignoring PK - like it has for the last 20-30 years. Can PK do the same?

[@DWAGON1818]

What can you learn from Hoodbhoy?

[@PA-hf7gy]

If you want to know truth about poverty in China I would reccomend SERPENTZA channel on YT.

[@DWAGON1818]

@Ex Dhimmi you will die with this dream of yours. Just like people before you did. There will never be an end to Muslim supremacism.

[@vinsin328]

China is a Secular country, whereas India is a Muslim appeasement or religious/dharma appeasement state. There cannot be any parallel. No two nation can ever be compared.

[@gladiator1186]

One of finest discussion i ever heard of.

[@arvindsharma7080]

Its a pleasure to listen to Dr Parvez and Ishtiaq saab

[@ishtiaqniazi9950]

Honest analysis really appreciate

[@dinabandhumudi46]

What a knowledge conversation!! Love from India.

[@primordialarchetypes2927]

*What an informative discussion!!.............no such thing as a 'knowledge conversation'

[@aq-study3214]

What an insightful discussion !!

[@innocentadvocate4909]

Dr. Ishtiq Ahmed And Syed Muzamil is a woke personality in Pakistan. Specially i dont know more Pakistani woke person but the two person Dr. Ishtiq ahmed and Syed muzamil are a great. I thought in Pakistan only military decide everything like politics, economy, education, business, foreign exchange, foreign policy, industry etc etc, no any one oppose Pakistan military policy. After i watch Dr. Ishtiq and Syed Muzamil i think about they are more woke for others. Good job both of you.

[@Teezdhar]

He was about to highlight Jinnah’s character when Dr. Hoodbhai interrupted and concluded the show. Lol. Good move, Black Hole audience/general public still has to go a long way to hear things against their heroes and leaders.

[@TheUndergroundRockstar]

@Hammad Ahmad: In case you missed it, a separate session on Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed's book on JINNAH is already announced and scheduled for today (1st February). I hope you'll revise your remark after a day. Cheers.

[@piyushdas079]

Imran khan is the jinnah of 2023

[@Teezdhar]

@@piyushdas079 both used the religion card to make masses fool.

[@gulrezrana3710]

@@piyushdas079 true this I agree 100% both are dark personalities and had no family life

[@goodfellow4967]

It’s a separate video

[@somnathde8680]

Thanks to the organiser of Black Hole from India. Great discussion. A lot of learning.🙏

[@kamalkhawaja3198]

thank u black hole for this wonderful session .looking forward for having more and more such enlightened sessions . bundle of thanks.

[@akhmadlatifdar2224]

اگر پاکستان سے افواج کو ختم بھی کر دیں تب بھی ہندوستان پاکستان پر قبضہ نہیں کرے گا کیونکہ اگر ہندوستان نے قبضہ کرنا ہی ہوتا تو بنگلہ دیش میں کر لیتا جہاں پر پاکستانی فوجی آپنی پتلونیں چھوڑ کے بھاگ گے تھے

[@WisdomBuds]

We Indian have great regard for this honest man.......

[@deepster8731]

was always wanting Dr. Ishtiaq to be on this platform and it came true ; such an insightful discussion

[@minerjopeace5915]

He is in Pakistan till mid March23. And coming to India Maharashtra in May 23

[@shabbirahmeddar7765]

Very thought provoking discussion.

[@getevennow]

“ No country has benefitted from continuous war “ - Sun Tsu

[@Rizwan-Ali]

Despite not agreeing with his "best mind sit together" suggestion, his talks make a lot of sense.

[@sanasama2209]

Extremely insightful

[@shamsharma4991]

Great discussion of greatest person

[@uzmaansari7]

There's another book with a similar title, The Garrison State written by Prof. Tai Tan Yong and published in 2005. That book is entirely about how the Punjab was a Garrison State for British colonists, and the militarisation of the Punjab had far reaching consequences for South Asia even after partition.

[@ViewsNewsChannel]

Know Jinnah, Gandhi, and the British Partnership which led to the Partition of India kzbin.info/www/bejne/n4GyamyqpMuFa9U kzbin.info/www/bejne/gmacc2OXotZ9iZI

[@highhousefoodmart2011]

Ishtiaq Saab, hoodboy Saab and Nazir Saab thank u for uploading this great discussion. It’s absolutely a delight to hear ishtiaq Saab. No wonder he is one of the best and most sensible person who can confirm history very well. Please try inviting barrister Hamid bashani saab. He is absolutely an authority on info pak relations.

[@sudhanshujha1325]

Nice discussion love from India ❤️❤️❤️

[@vivektripathi8615]

Thanks and love from bharat for this beautiful and balanced discussion

[@dilbagsingh6406]

Very good pragmatic discussion by great great Sir Dr Ishtiaq Ahmed

[@MuhammadAwais-ul7cf]

Incredible discussion

[@AshokKumar-lj9cd]

Loved every minute....

[@suvrabhattacharjee6592]

wonderful conversation

[@murtazakhan3802]

A scared Dr. Ishtiyaq evades the first question but as he moved on, he unfolded the events exposing the army. Good work..

[@saeeddeen7304]

Special thanks to Pervaiz Hoodbhoy for inviting Dr Ishtiaq sahib.

[@chaudhrysaddique9788]

ہر ملک کو فوج کی ضرورت ہوتی ہے لیکن پاکستان کی فوج کو ایک ملک کی ضرورت ہے۔

[@SunilSharma-cw4qp]

Loved it thoroughly enjoyed 🙂☺️. Indian Pakistan watcher.

[@arslannaseer7164]

Ishtiaq sb the great! ❤️ Love you sir

[@moderndemocracychannel4699]

You are gathered hear as enlighten and critically analyzing the political and economic conditions of of Pakistan.

[@mischefman2004]

Tu hindu banega na musalman banega …insaan ki aulaad tu Insaan Banega….India isi pe believe karta hain and tabhi sabko opportunity deta hain…we have so many people in Muslim community serving us at top places and contributing towards this idea.

[@vivekvij7955]

Great discussion.

[@villagelifeblog297]

I think dr. Nazir is more rational and practical sight and istiaq is more academic here and parvez sir is calm with disappointment mind with pak situation. Love u frm 🇮🇳

[@pkguru4709]

Thanks. Very good analysis of history of Pakistan.

[@saith-waqas-ali]

Pakistan really need these kinds of discussions. It is very good that many participants of this meeting are asking very good and thinkable questions.

[@somesshbahuguna9620]

I am pleasantly surprised to find that there are serious thinkers in Pakistan. Unfortunately, their voice doesn't matter there.

[@fahadyousafzi]

there's 99% of indians in the comment section🤨

[@abdulpugganwala4856]

Lmaoooooooooooooooo Alhumdulilah even the lowest Pakistani can see through his “intellectual” bullshit pathetic

[@A__j217]

True, we just want to see if Pakistani blind or not given their condition and that trajectory. 🙏😂

[@A__j217]

Yes we are talking lessons on the consequences of wrong decision. 😂😂

[@gurpreetsandhu8638]

Right bro ​@@A__j217

[@mohsinafzaal7159]

Dr Ishtiaq Ahmed Sahib, please also have a discussion on your book Jinnah his successes failures and role in history? I will appreciate that Sir 😊

[@TheUndergroundRockstar]

It's already announced and going to take place today (1st Feb).

[@mohsinafzaal7159]

@@TheUndergroundRockstar awesome 👏 thanks for letting me know 🙏

[@annnilsson501]

Mohsin Plz listen to What Ishtiaq Ahmed is telling… Every Word he is speaking is the real TRUTH & the Only way to progress of Pakistan people towards prosparity 🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰

[@mohsinafzaal7159]

@@annnilsson501 yes! I have watched all his videos and I agree with him including his idea of solution for Kashmir problem…..

[@mohsinafzaal7159]

@DIVYANSH SAHU I did…. 🙏

[@usmanbutt12345]

What a discussion! Superb

[@sharjeeljawaid]

Absolutely correct on Maj Gen Iskander Mirza.

[@dholkapol617]

Excellent point by Dr. Naazir Mahmud at .40 hr of this clip. Dr. Ishtiaq and Hoodbhoy are very learned people but they were too generous in admiring Jinnah's foresight, which Jinnah didn't have. What Jinnah said to a foreign reporter means nothing in comparison to his over all shortsightedness If this so-called great leader had a foresight, why he couldn't see the genocide of Punjab, likely break up of his Pakistan that happened in 1971, and turmoil of present day Pakistan. Many of Jinnah's contemporaries had predicted all these events but most likely he couldn't.

[@arifkhambaty572]

Which contemporaries are you referring to?

[@jaisinghpunia3078]

Very good analysis really unbiased.

[@AbhishekDDutt]

Really nice to hear such views coming from sir..

[@agrippa-theskeptic9346]

Amazing. So little interest in such an interesting & important topic in the capital city!

[@mohsinafzaal7159]

The Black Hole is doing an amazing job 👏👏👏