Panel discussion - how did islam really begin? (NAPC conference)

[@IslamicOrigins]

The panel discussion on the origins of Islam critically examines the historical and geographical significance of Mecca, questioning traditional narratives that position it as a major trading city linked to pivotal figures like Muhammad and Abraham. Speakers highlight the absence of reliable historical references to Mecca prior to the 8th century, suggesting that it may have gained prominence as a pilgrimage site later on, particularly during the Abbasid period. The discussion also scrutinizes the role of the Zamzam well and the direction of prayer in early Islamic practices, indicating a potential earlier focus on Jerusalem rather than Mecca. Furthermore, the panelists explore the implications of these historical reinterpretations for the legitimacy of Muhammad’s narrative and the authenticity of the Quran, arguing that a nuanced understanding of early Islamic figures and texts is essential. They emphasize the complexities inherent in Quranic exegesis and the need to recognize the interplay between established Islamic doctrine and broader historical contexts, suggesting a shift is unfolding in scholarly perspectives on Islam's roots.

[@DrivenByDetails]

@@IslamicOrigins Sounds like an AI narrative

[@IslamicOrigins]

@@DrivenByDetails Yes, well spotted.

[@Hemocracy]

Prof. Moshe Sharon: All Prophets are Muslim kzbin.info/www/bejne/amSalGaZpd2Fl9E

[@123dsj123]

The absence of archaeological findings (ancient remains) such as tools, pottery, jewelry, or stone walls in present day Mecca has unquestionably undermined the belief that Mecca existed before the 10th century A.D. The non-existence of any historical artifacts (items, relics) in Mecca is too much for Muslims to overcome.

[@mhamedkhattabi5863]

You cant make millions of people to make anual peligrinage to another city just by slaping your fingers . imposdible if anybody tried not all people would just say oooly lets go there . History would have mentioned that There were people who resisted and refused and fought

[@eva4adam451]

​@@mhamedkhattabi5863do you know Las Vegas ? In the middle of nowhere. Never existed 200. Years. Ago. Millions of people go there. Monaco N York same South Africa build in 100 years. Chinese cities. Hongkong. Batavia name it.

[@Avenged7Xs]

There is zero historical evidence for moehumded ever being in mecca or medinah, zero...

[@Avenged7Xs]

There is zero historical evidence for moehumded ever being in mecca or medinah, zero

[@hebrews1112]

Their mental gymnstics are unpresedented. "Everything that goes against the Qur'an is false" Cognitive dissonance 100%

[@jeangatti9384]

Mecca could not have existed as a large commercial caravan city in the 7th century. Main reasons for this fact are: 1) Mecca is not an oasis, so there is no surface water (only a well, known as zamzam which is clearly unsufficient and inappropriate for watering many caravan camels) 2) Mecca is not shown on any map or any document at that time or even previously 3) Mecca is located down of Hidjaz plateau and could therefore not be located on the caravan route which is located more than 1000 m above on the plateau (eg the city of Taeef is located at an altitude of ca 2000 m while Mecca is at 300 m) 4) there were no archeological remains or artefacts (coins, potteries, ruins, bones etc) discovered in Mecca dating from before circa year 700 It is impossible that a large city would leave no trace at all of its past 5) no agriculture whatsoever is possible in this wild rocky desert location, how could a large city survive in such hostile environment ?

[@kongplus1]

Mecca was hit by a huge meteorite about 6000 years ago and it has become a holy site for many pagan worshipers since the meteoriote hit. Muhammad just changed polytheistic Mecca into his own monotheistic Mecca Islam. The Black Stone sacredly placed in Kaaba is thought be a tektite which is formed during meteorite impact.

[@jeangatti9384]

@@kongplus1 I am not speaking about beliefs but about verifiable facts

[@BOC-s3t]

In addition to this when we look at the historical records of the early 20th century regarding cholera outbreaks and the tens of thousands that have died as a result of insufficient clean water?

[@jeangatti9384]

@@BOC-s3t And thousands pilgrims die each year due to heat and bad hygiene conditions

[@Auudubillahi]

​@@jeangatti9384where are your sources? Cite them

[@shredx81]

It was interesting in the YQ interview with Mo Hijab, that what YQ was saying was absolute news to him. So a devout Muslim who reads and memorises the Quran everyday and who’s career centralises around his religion and defending its claims, had absolutely no idea there were multiple Qurans and that it is impossible to reproduce one word for word. And then being told not to ask in public because it’s too controversial for the average Muslim to know about it. So a grown man and Muslim who actually studies theology academically, was completely ignorant of it. So I suppose the point is that Muslims don’t appear to want to apply any critical or logical thinking about anything they’ve been made to believe. Islam’s historical integrity hangs by so fine a thread that Muslims daren’t research for fear that everything they’ve been taught to believe might come down like a deck of cards. Blindly defending the indefensible, being more palatable than knowing that their religion is the work of charlatans.

[@mr.angelosonassis3069]

Good observation. How could M. Hijab not know about the multiple Korans? Doesn't he have a PhD? How did he even do that? He's such a big oaf and a fool.

[@Corolla97ww]

Points well put.

[@loungeranger]

You spout rubbish. You confuse “different” Tajweed with different Qur’ans. My goodness who taught you to be an expert in Arabic or Qur’anic tajweed? Or are you just spouting rubbish you heard from someone else.

[@shredx81]

@@loungeranger There are over 25 different Qurans in print with collective variances in the tens of thousands. There are people who’ve played the lottery every week for 30 years and never won. Instead of cutting their losses, they continue to play, because they are deluded in thinking they have been making an investment for 30 years. If you’ve given a lifetime of servitude to Islam, it isn’t in your interest to research aspects of its teaching and history that challenges what you’ve been told. This is about truth and not defending what you’ve been told to believe is true.

[@mr.angelosonassis3069]

@@loungeranger 'The Standard Narrative has holes in it.' - Yassir Qadhi, 8 June 2020

[@mikejohnson5059]

Islam, as we our it today, evolved in the 8th thru 9th centuries in asia.

[@perumalnagapushnam7542]

if it evovled at a later period, how did the shia breakoff form the mainstream of sunni take place? This is a puzzle me

[@youtubeuser1993]

Specifically Iran and Central Asia

[@Benedir]

Christianity too!!2nd century, too

[@JayaseelanPatchy]

A Good muslim recites the Quran . An Ex muslim studied the Quran

[@moviesmovies6796]

Well said

[@wahid-lg1kk]

@@JayaseelanPatchy Actually you should study the Quran. If you just recite it like a magic spell, you have totally missed the point.

[@BHELISG-c5s]

A .M.u.s.l.i.m. is not supposed to think. He should believe whatever taught and told. No debate, no discussion, no questions, no critical analysis, no critical thinking. No evidence. No proof. No witness. Just self proclamation....!!! He has no option other than to believe cooked-up stories. He should be blind believer & follow blind faiths.

[@ShameOnZionists]

Why didnt you bring a muslim scholar here? To this panel?

[@Benedir]

They didn't want arguments! Muslim could have challenged them! Judaism Christianity can also be easily challenged!!the Samaritan in west bank their holy place jewish god chose is on a mountain in west bank not Jerusalem,jews moved it to Jerusalem later​@ShameOnZionists

[@mattaikay925]

Awesome - may The Lord bless them and keep them.

[@thejoseonone]

Where are the Muslim scholars to answer these questions? I guess the crickets will answer for them.

[@mustafamalimi]

They clearly weren't invited here. What an echo chamber!

[@thejoseonone]

Not just here but in general where are the Muslim scholars to answer these questions? Yassir qhadi couldn't answer the problems of the quran. It's western scholars and academia that's doing the digging. It seems as though the Muslim scholars are keeping their silence about these issues.

[@paulthomas281]

@@mustafamalimi The echo chamber is Sunni Islam. Spare me the 4 schools of Sunni Islam. It's all echo chamber-ism.

[@mustafamalimi]

@thejoseonone my friend, I was fact-checking along with the video, and the claims are a bit exaggerated. We have a Quran carbon dated from no later than 645 AD. That book itself mentions Mecca and the Kaaba and Mohammad. Cmon, friend, how can I take this whole video seriously? The city was known as a merchant city and not just a pilgrims site. A lot of trade caravans had been moving around that area between Persia, Ethiopia, Yemen, Egypt, Canaan, Syria, and Arabia. This is why real academic historians aren't making these claims or responding to these gentlemen's questions. And I mean secular and non-muslim historians. See Gary Willis, Karen Armstrong, Lesley Hazleton. That's three non-muslim American scholars of history and specialists on Islam and its origins. Dan Gibson is a conspiracy theorist and, unfortunately, has no credibility. I'm really shocked people don't understand that these kind of videos and these people in them are not credible historians or specialists in the topic. Please Google some academic sources for information to questions and they are very credible and unbiased. I'm talking about non-muslim academics about Islam. Go there. Then go to the Muslims. Thanks.

[@mustafamalimi]

@@thejoseonone which problem?

[@ngatatan2597]

Muslims are encouraged to memorise the Quran to recite it accurately,but they are discouraged from truly understanding and interpreting it under pain of excommunication or death for deviating from the accepted interpretations per the Tafsirs

[@saididlhaj8549]

They are discouraged by who?!! The holy Koran itself calls its readers to ponder and reflect on its messages and meanings. "(Will they not then reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon their hearts)" Chapter 47 verse 24

[@Benedir]

I v also examine the Bible and extra books!and concluded, they are full of myths and cultures of pre biblical era!! Middle east Asia and north east Africa

[@ngatatan2597]

@@Benedir prove it bro. The documentation of the 40 authors from Moses to John produced original work unique to itself. The creation account of Genesis (1500BC) is most probably a documentation by Moses of Hebrew oral and written tradition, which is again unique and original to the Judeo-Christian heritage. The Genesis accounts for the history of the patriarchs is also most probably a compilation of oral and written history of the Hebrew people, which while a compilation is not only unique but compiled by Moses with the inspiration of the Spirit of God. The remaining 4 books of the Torah - Exodus , Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy - are all current documentation contemporary to the sojourn of the Hebrew people through the Sinai before entering the Promised Land of historical and present-time Israel. To be a myth it must predate the document. If it is based on the documentation, then it might be some embellished account that is a myth based on the document but the document itself cannot be called a myth because no-one can either confirm nor deny it!

[@ngatatan2597]

@@saididlhaj8549 by your imams of course. MisInterpret any verse and see if you get into trouble!

[@saididlhaj8549]

​@@ngatatan2597 Nobody has authority in Islam except God, imams can be corrected and discussed with by ordinary people. There are many interpretations of the Koran and hadiths, as for misinterpretation that's a different thing

[@sirupate]

Thank you for posting this Mel, what a great panel and discussion which re-enforces everything that has been coming from Jay, Paul and yourself,.

[@RubyJeans943]

Yes!!!! Keep exposing the truth.

[@bemindful6094]

😅😂 u wish 😅😂

[@yakovmatityahu]

Land Mark Conference...World will be a different place after this.

[@Auudubillahi]

😅😅😅😅😅

[@user-yy3vd9vx7y]

Thank you all of you and others💪✝️.

[@ShameOnZionists]

They are lying all togetger sitting here

[@oleo.stimes6525]

What a great collection of minds and ideas. Bravo, presenters!

[@rioadam6950]

A bunch of ignorants

[@anthonydacosta5371]

🎉🎉

[@vikramkhanna8533]

A bunch of Anglo scholars only on panel.

[@mozuka5129]

A collection of mind.?..These are some jokers from the Speakers Corner..They have been smashed to smithereens so many times by Mansur,Hashim and the others..and now they have been considered as "a collection of mind"??...The Christians are really desperate!!!

[@magistradox39]

Looking and searching for the truth is the opposite of desperation.

[@preapple]

Sorry that Jay didn’t say much! Ummayad and Abbasid Islam are two separate things undoubtedly. More definitive research is required in the first 70 years of Islam

[@william6223]

Yes

[@StanGraham1]

Agree 100%

[@DrivenByDetails]

Listen to Jay’s own videos. They’re quite long and well illustrated. It would have been rude of him to monopolize the stage, making him to appear more important than the other speakers.

[@DrivenByDetails]

@@preapple Jay has said that there’s no real info on the first 100 years. The only reason why the Koran is a thing is because it doesn’t permit being questioned. Nothing it says can be debated by Muslims. It only survived because of force. Wouldn’t it be amazing if it opened itself up to the world, knocked out the stuff that islamism feeds off, knock out the stuff that involves harming people who say negative things about it, knock out the stuff about killing people who leave it, knock out rape and wife beating, pedophilia, etc. Just listing these makes me wonder why anyone converts to Islam. From what I’ve watched, they do because no one tells them the truth about what they’re getting into. To its credit, Judaism makes you not want to join it, which is why converts are more likely to be more observant than people born to Jewish mothers.

[@ben0298]

I wonder if any muslims are actually paying attention 🤔 i would argue this stuff is devastating for Islam

[@economician]

@ben0298 Quranist muslim here. We are paying attention and we are also studying modern critical research on the Bible. However our problem is that the averahe sunny muslim is not intrested in these intellectual aspects. Their focus is more on community building.

[@synewparadigm]

They are in complete denial and will ignore any prove that the Koran got lots of mistakes and nonsenses.

[@economician]

@synewparadigm The evangelicals and fundamentalist do the same thing with the Bible. You tend to overlook the negative aspects of things you like, in academia it is called harmonisation. However if you back up all of that with good morals you increase your chances for salvation. From what I can see the evangelicals have sold their soul to zianism. They went from being prolife to its ok to bemb children’s hospitals.

[@synewparadigm]

​@@economicianThe evangelicals are right to chose civilized society over 7th century barbarism.

[@Ceilingfan-r8m]

@@synewparadigm there is no mistake in the holy Quran like the Bible 50,000 errors why weren’t Muslim scholars invited? Oh I know because this car could never.

[@fallah200]

Where can I watch the full thing

[@IslamicOrigins]

This is the full panel discussion. To see other presentations from this conferences, look at the NAPC playlist on this channel. I will eventually upload the remaining presentations.

[@Corolla97ww]

Looking forward to further uploads

[@bemindful6094]

The full nonsense is right here 😂😅

[@_Moving_Target_]

The hypothesis that Mecca initially became important as an Ismail/Hagar pilgrimage site before eventually becoming a recreation of Jerusalem, either accidentally or even accidentally-on-purpose, is very interesting.

[@jons9446]

Never happened. It's 1,400 km beer Sheba to Mecca Say 30km day 46 days Hagar had only a bottle of water, walked for 46 days? Really More likely Umayid Unitarian Christian Abd al Malik tried to destroy the pagan Kaaba in Petra Zubair took the stone and fled south More likely

[@ShonMardani]

Mecca is a Farsi word " محل کاروان - mahale-kaarevan " which means the "Caravan Location". Kaaba is " جعبه - jabbeh " which means "Qube / Box". Saffa is " زن‌ها - zanha " means "women". Marva is " مردها - mardha " means "men". Baqarah is " اثر و قباله - ghabaleh " means "traces and property deed", Kaaba and Al-Aqsa were they were keeping the property deeds and were witnessing and registering the marriages as well which led them to become woman/sex trafficking for women and slavery for men. Quran is " کارگران - karegaran " means workers [mainly well diggers and construction workers] and the Turban was the first Safety Helmet to protect them from falling dirt and rocks as well as keeping their head and hair clean and cover their mouth and nose for dust. Turban became the symbol of a man who has a skill, job and income.

[@IslamicOrigins]

@@jons9446 the Kaaba in Petra idea holds no water. Gibson sidesteps even referencing the papers of the archaeologists who worked on the Roman altar that served the Temple next to it, that's all it was. Plus his "measurements" of the place is out by 20% and purposely chosen to line up with Al Azraqi's, as if by magic.

[@IslamicOrigins]

I'm getting definite racist overtones in the repeated references to the whiteness of panel. Refer to the material raised. Racist comments with be deleted and users banned. This channel will not tolerate racism against anyone, white or otherwise.

[@johnnoble2066]

That's all you had left, didn't answer one of their points, just through the race card in.

[@IslamicOrigins]

@@johnnoble2066 Don't be ridiculous their only point was to be racist. How it that a point?

[@Benedir]

Panel is fine It's not color here I m black and didn't think of it I see humans like me Doing their best to open the mind of the public especially Muslims However, the Bible is also human made

[@Benedir]

As a black person, I watched this video 2 times and I didn't care about the color, Any color could have said the same thing said here Christianity too was developed 60 to 300 years after Jesus Also the holy temple was originally at Mount gerizim in west bank(samaria and Samaritan are still offering sacrifices there) And jews moved it to Jerusalem

[@77Clarity]

@@IslamicOrigins Islam wipes out racism, tribalism, nationalism and if followed properly even petty rivalries! No muslim worthy of the elevated state it should provide, should ever support any of them or utter a racist comment. However, the so-called experts have no authority on these matters. Pure speculative conjecture driven enquiry starting with farcical assumptions.

[@jperez7893]

This is where the uncensored Quran of saint Murad helps

[@dollahmusa6705]

After Muhammad's death, the Meccans changed the name Isaac in Suras 2:125 and 127 for the name Ishmael and invented the story about Abraham taking Ishmael to their black rock in Mecca, so that pilgrims would continue to visit Mecca. THAT IS THE MAIN REASON

[@Ceilingfan-r8m]

People are just as delusional as your Bible, which has 50,000 errors in

[@shayalynn]

@@GrowWithInfo-1028 Please explain this to me.. I’m not sure I understand the latter part of the passage. Where are you getting this from? It’s very interesting and would like to check it out

[@77Clarity]

@@dollahmusa6705Evidence for your ridiculous claims?

[@sam-f1w7u]

Paul, there is absolutely no mention of Jerusalem in the Quran. Or Baytul Muqaddis (Bayt Ha Mikdash in Hebrew). Baytullah (house of Allah) is not Jerusalem. Jay and Robert - the verse eaten by the goat is not about wife beating or adult suckling. The silly hadith about the goat eating a Quran verse refers to stoning adulterers to death. All you great scholars MUST provide clear references to the Quran when you speak about the Quran. Otherwise it is hearsay. There is no muhammad mentioned in the Quran. There are four mentions of muhammadun and muhammadin which are adjectives (praiseworthy). At best it is a simple noun (praiseworthy person). There is no proper noun al-muhammad anywhere in the Quran. The name of Sura 47 was changed from Sura al Qital to Sura al-Muhammad. It was a much later innovation. Please refer the so called Mecca words in the Quran. For example "bi batni makkata" does not mean "in the middle of Mecca". It means "in the bowels of intrigue". Likewise 'mukaan wa tasdiyyan' means 'intrigue and interference with their hands'. Makata / mukaan refers intrigue. In Sura 3:96 the word Bakka is not Mecca. Period. Bakka means with deep conviction, sorrow, effort, sweat and toil. You find it in the Book of Psalms "the valley of Bacca". Odon LaFontaine, the Quran is a Nestorian Christian document. The entire Quran is about Christo-tokos versus Theo-tokos. Archbishop Nestorius was present at the Council of Ephesus in 431AD where he was condemned for his insistence on "Christotokos". It was during the reign of Roman Emperor Theodosius II. Ephesus is also home to the story of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus who were discovered during the time of same Theodosius II. Archbishop Nestorius was also present. In Sura 18, the Quran mentions the sleepers of the cave. These were the same Sleepers of Ephesus. Refer Sura 18:22 - the "muhammad character" was present at the time they discovered the sleepers inside the cave. Sura 18:22 " Some would say, "They were three; their dog being the fourth," while others would say, "Five; the sixth being their dog," as they guessed. Others said, "Seven," and the eighth was their dog. Say, "My Lord is the best knower of their number." Only a few knew the correct number. THEREFORE DO NOT ARGUE WITH THEM, JUST GO ALONG WITH THEM. You need not consult anyone about this." Do not argue with who? Who is them? Them refers to the people who were arguing about how many boys there were inside the cave. This does not refer to 7th century Mecca. (It did not exist anyway. There was also no Muhammad). This refers to the people in Ephesus. They argued about the sleepers in the cave. The "muhammad-character" was present at Ephesus. Archbishop Nestorius was present at Ephesus. Christotokos versus Theotokos. CAN SOMEONE PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO ODON, PAUL, ROBERT, JAY, MEL etc. Thank you.

[@PaulDdAEllis]

'There is absolutely no mention of Jerusalem in the Qur'an...' Not true! Even on the traditional Islamic interpretation, the Qur'an mentions the Holy Land, Jerusalem and the temple on numerous occasions. The episodes set in the palaces of David and of Solomon must be assumed to have taken place in their Jerusalem palaces (mentioned in the Bible), the annunciation of a son to Zechariah, the upbringing of Mary, the selection of a spouse for Mary, and the breathing of life into her womb are all clearly set in the temple. The masjid of the Banu Israel in 17.7 is generally (correctly) assumed to be the temple, and also their houses in Q 17.5. And the Qur'an's night journey of Q 17.1 is conventionally believed to be a journey to Jerusalem's Temple Mount (incorrectly; it is actually Muhammad's journey *away from* Jerusalem). These are just the instances that the Islamic tradition recognises. There are many more. Even your calling Jerusalem the Bayt al-Miqdash, the Holy House, is a sign that proto-Islam recognised the temple as the Sacred/Ancient/House, Allah's House, mentioned in the Qur'an dozens of times. Why else would you call it by that name? So why do you say that Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Qur'an? Have you even read it?

[@ShonMardani]

Mecca is a Farsi word " محل کاروان - mahale-kaarevan " which means the "Caravan Location". Kaaba is " جعبه - jaabeh " which means "Qube / Box".

[@EnaK.ktoridouKK]

@@PaulDdAEllis there is no mention og the name jerusalem > jerusalem is over 3,0000 years old there is no mention of jerusalem by name in the quran > you can lie and desieve people > but islam is a copy paste>

[@sam-f1w7u]

@@PaulDdAEllis You said : So why do you say that Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Qur'an? Have you even read it? Answer : Your reply is not academic or even professional. You have used these words : traditional interpretation, must be assumed, set in the, is generally (correctly) assumed, is conventionally believed. Why dont you save yourself some trrouble and just say PERHAPS, MAYBE or MY GUESS IS. Because that is what you are doing. You are just guessing. Let me repeat : There is absolutely no mention of Jerusalem in the Qur'an. You said : . And the Qur'an's night journey of Q 17.1 is conventionally believed to be a journey to Jerusalem's Temple Mount (incorrectly; it is actually Muhammad's journey away from Jerusalem). Answer : 17:1 refers to Moses and the Children of Israel.. Just read the very next verse 17:2 because 17:1 flows into 17:2. (17:1 Most glorified is the One who summoned His servant during the night, from the masjidil haram to the masjidil aqsa about which we have blessed, in order to show him some of our signs. He is the Hearer, the Seer. 17:2 AND WE GAVE MOSES THE BOOK, and rendered it a beacon for the Children of Israel that: "You shall not set up any idol as a Lord and Master beside Me.") You said : Even your calling Jerusalem the Bayt al-Miqdash, the Holy House, is a sign that proto-Islam recognised the temple as the Sacred/Ancient/House, Allah's House, mentioned in the Qur'an dozens of times. Why else would you call it by that name? Answer : I never called Jerusalem by any other name. I said that there is no Baytul Muqaddis in the Quran. I said that bayt ha miqdash is hebrew. The bayt ha miqdash is the name of the innermost holy sanctum of the jewish temple which is located in the city of Jerusalem. The arabs / the mullahs have plagiarised the hebrew bayt ha miqdash and made it into Baytul Muqaddis, which became the arabic name for the city of Jerusalem.. My English is simple enough. I never called Jerusalem by any other name. Please do not be putting words in my mouth. There is absolutely no mention of either Jerusalem or Baytul Muqaddis in the Quran. "generally assumed", 'conventionally believed' is just guessing. Maybe, perhaps etc.

[@sam-f1w7u]

@@GrowWithInfo-1028 idolatry is a mental condition. No theotokos.

[@straighttalking2090]

I think a panel of this authority should be available to any government that favours the immigration of the followers of Islam, many of whom are doing so specifically to spread the ummah (Islamic lands).

[@abamqc]

The word Qibla, could be something related with Kopura or Kovil in Indian context meaning the temples or temple towers which normally built by a king. So I am seeing everything political, the Arab fighting against the Romans, Jewish domination and Sasanian kings, dominated them and wrote a book for them to further their expansions.

[@mt2ran]

Clearly with all these great minds all together in one place it would be so easy for them to produce a chapter like one of the Quran’s chapter and shut Muslims up once and for all

[@hagalhagal9989]

As The Christian Prince has said, this challenge was overcome by satan because according to Muhammed it was Satan that told him the Satanic verses!

[@mikejohnson5059]

Awesome

[@phaethon3124]

i'm guessing jeddah came about to control east/west trade that went via egypt and sudan through the red sea to the indian ocean, taking over from venetians that used this route

[@Mady-lo6qb]

18:43 If the Hateem is in fact a rather stylized Kibla, then that would demonstrate that it isn't the center. As he correctly points out the Dome of the Rocks lack a Kibla and is more in tune with a building to walk around. My question is - has any geochemical analysis been done on the blocks of the Kaaba, or the stone inside the little shrine that is supposed to hold the standing place/footprints of Abraham. That might resolve some issues.

[@PaulDdAEllis]

I do not believe so. I believe that the ground outline of kaaba plus hatim is that of a synagogue that was once built at the site. Byzantine era synagogues were generally built with an apse 'pointing' towards Jerusalem (the direction that Jews are told to pray towards) and a door to the east (like the Garden of Eden/tabernacle/ temple.) Regarding the 'Maqam Ibrahim' the design looks to me, not to be footprints, but ceremonial basins into which one might put one's feet to wash them (as Jewish priests are obliged to do before entering the synagogue.) However, it would be v nice to have some analysis of it.

[@inesantunes9594]

Can you compare Islam with communism and nazism?

[@shredx81]

They’re all authoritarian and totalitarian. A Caliphate requires a Caliph. So requires a dictator.

[@mysotiras21]

That has been done many times.

[@ShonMardani]

Communism and nazism are zionist so as many muslims.

[@ShonMardani]

Mecca is a Farsi word " محل کاروان - mahale-kaarevan " which means the "Caravan Location". Kaaba is " جعبه - jabbeh " which means "Qube / Box". Saffa is " زن‌ها - zanha " means "women". Marva is " مردها - mardha " means "men". Baqarah is " اثر و قباله - ghabaleh " means "traces and property deed", Kaaba and Al-Aqsa were they were keeping the property deeds and were witnessing and registering the marriages as well which led them to become woman/sex trafficking for women and slavery for men. Quran is " کارگران - karegaran " means workers [mainly well diggers and construction workers] and the Turban was the first Safety Helmet to protect them from falling dirt and rocks as well as keeping their head and hair clean and cover their mouth and nose for dust. Turban became the symbol of a man who has a skill, job and income.

[@paulthomas281]

@inesantunes9594 Yes, absolutely. It can be compared with communism and Nazism. Islam is an ideology of state and society. The "leader", Mr. Muhammad, cannot be questioned.

[@avalanche_123]

If you are a beginner of history and would like to get started, are there any good books you’d recommend? Please not to heavy reading to keep the interest up. Thank you!

[@JPS-hd8qz]

Those who believe don't know, and those who know don't believe...

[@IslamicOrigins]

Belief and knowledge are funny things, but actually at base you wouldn't know anything, if you didn't believe the source of your information to be true. Most things are not knowledge that we have worked out for ourselves or been demonstrated to us, so we either have to trust to acquire knowledge or remain in a state of scepticism and learn nothing. :)

[@debblouin]

Islam began by Ali’s sword and Khadija’s wealth, according to tradition. Not by Allah, apparently.

[@IslamicOrigins]

I have noticed a tendency in the comments to refer to the "whiteness" of the panel as a disqualification for discussing Islam. OK, Muslims be consistent: -Abu Juhaifa reported: I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) that he had white complexion and had some white hair, and Hasan b. 'Ali resembled him. Book 43, Hadith 139 -It was narrated that 'Abdullah said: "The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used to say the salam to his right so that the whiteness of his cheek could be seen, and to his left so that the whiteness of his cheek could be seen." Book 13, Hadith 145 -Anas reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was not accustomed to raice his hands in any supplication he made except when praying for rain. (He would then raise [his hands] high enough) that the whiteness of his armpits became visible. 'Abd al-A'la said that (he was in doubt whether it was) the whiteness of his armpit or armpits. Book 9, Hadith 7 Of course, I don't believe in hadiths as being historically true. But if you want to give out about the panel being "white", then you are throwing both your Prophet and the hadiths under the bus.

[@wahid-lg1kk]

You can throw Hadith under the bus all day if you like.

[@AshKZB]

What a ridiculous attempt to justify and project a messily understanding of the concerns raised by the audience. Nobody actually cares about the RACE / COLOUR of the panel members as being the issue. The issue is with what it means to have such a panel. There are millions of “white” muslims all around the globe and millions more who revert to Islam daily and they are all equal members of the Islamic Ummah! The issue with THIS “white” panel is that from the get go, its obviously an an all ANTI-ISLAMIC panel so the discussion and its conclusion are obviously going to be biased and pre-determined. These are not learned “WHITE” theologians of Islamic history. They are bigoted and paid members of the same mission with not a single muslim on the panel who can respond and debunk the claims and accusations levelled against Islam. In less than 2 minutes into watching the video it was evident this so called debate will be all about spewing lies about islam and that was evident by the hand gesture your guest made at 1:15 while talking about Mecca. And lastly, your panel lacks any real knowledge of history. Saying “yes I think so” when asked if these are the “things muslims will more traditionally say.” I challenge you to invite ME or any other real muslim scholar to debate your made up fabrications and then we can say this was a just and fair debate and we will see if its Islam thats a problem or Christianity which is LITERALLY filled with pagan rituals, festivals and traditions!

[@AshKZB]

How about ask all your ridiculous questions to a muslim scholar instead of throw them the air baselessly and then replying to them yourself which is YOUR view and not facts

[@MrManny075]

whiteness of the panel, what this means? What the color of the skin got to do with religion? Are you saying Muslims are not white?

[@TravelsOfNema]

What "color" the person is, is totally irrelevant. Why such fanatism about color all the time and everywhere? Why? What is the point of that? Who came up with that sort of color idiocy? Stop it. Just stop it.

[@Mady-lo6qb]

15:32 Thinking about it from a practical standpoint, finding treasure in a well isn't that farfetched. I mean, if I have a well on my property or my village, and we are about to be invaded, the fastest way to hide any valuables would be to drop it into the well and dump some buckets of dirt on top. And if I wanted to conceal that I was involved in any fighting, I might toss my sword in there too in the same way that a crook might toss their gun into a river. It might become a literary trope later, but it was likely based on real actions by people in the past. Later people, finding that the well needs to be dug deeper, inadvertently remove the fill that was deliberately tossed in previously, and find the lost stashes of the previous inhabitants - who clearly were never able to go back and retrieve their hard earned savings/pension fund.

[@darrenpick8919]

Love ❤️ you, Israel 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

[@schmuckpuppet4842]

riiiiight

[@1089S]

Heraclius along with Salman Farsi played a major role which is mentioned in Islamic sources but largely ignored in western scholarships. You have to take into account the power ballance between The Sassanid Persian Empire and Byzantine Roman Empire. Then you have to see the cause of success of an empire. For the Assyrian empire it was divide and conquer, for the Roman empire it was create a banana state with a puppet dictator, for the Persian empire, it was the pony Express. Heraclius was able to tip the balance of power the Roman way. Now you know the rest of the history.

[@woodyharrelson2624]

Lots of Mutah helped reduce total inbreeding though sibling marriage is still very prevalent

[@eva4adam451]

I said the same 40y ago to a moroccan. He answered: 1 out of 7 children is from the neighbour. 😊😊 Women get smarter the more they get imprisoned.

[@ephraimteitelbaum7696]

Hi, I heard the panel very carefully. I fortunately we still don’t know, because of lake of time, how this cult started. Two remarks, and I have a lot : 1) The théorie that the ABSENCE of evidence is not an evidence is stupid. Because the historic documents talk about a lot of things. Nothing about Mecca ? The first city in the world ? It’s a JOKE ! Moreover, all archeological evidences in all parts of the world talk about cities, persons, kings that existed. They document everything, but not something that never existed. When Mouawiyya the 1st became in 661 the king in Damascus, he minted coins. Etc. He was Arab Christian in Syria. Not in Arabia. Why ? 2) Paul talks about the Coran. What he said was stupid. The Hadiths, Tafsirs, and all other “histories” are invented. He stuck to the “Coran”. Which one ? One of dozens ? And those books are criminals. They ask Muslims to kill all humanity. False historical facts, stupid stories, agains any human knowledge like women have sperm. The sun runs to his fix course in Hafs, doesn’t run to his fix course in Abou Daoud. Human being is born from congealed blood 🩸! Crazy books. All his fabricated. 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱

[@Magic-lg9lw]

There is consensus in the academic world where critical study of history and Quran. In that sense there dims growing consensus on the unreliability of the traditional Islamic narrative

[@YusanTRusli]

With Adam and being conveyed all the ways until Muhammad. One God, One Religion.

[@ThePilgrimsroad]

I wish we had the full names of the tangents. We are not all conversant with the panelists..

[@IslamicOrigins]

I've updated them now.

[@diamonddave1481]

This pretty much makes it impossible to be Muslim or believe that SIN. At this point, anyone in a disagreement with these men has to be dismissed.

[@eva4adam451]

I heard ZamZam is not a well but a rain watercollector for about 50 people. The water now is artificcial. They digged deep water structures. And: Abraham has 2 fathers : Azar and Tera.

[@gentz8310]

Great discussion! Thanks to all

[@richardarthur7864]

Could Safa and Marwah be Mount Gerizim and Mount Ebal, and authors of the Quran want a parallel for something similar to put in the Quran? Deception is at the heart of Islam.

[@TurkishFollowerOfChrist]

They spread by handing over flowers and roses to everybody that denied Mohammeds prophethood up until they were infront of the gates of Vienna... Everybody knows that. ⚘️🌹 Ask the Greeks, Armenians, Indians, Jews, Christians of the Levant, Mesopotamia, Egypt and North Africa.

[@ChicothemonkeyChicothemonkey]

"Muslims and Christians share so much in common: fighting against evil, valuing strong family structures, worshiping one God, and showing respect for the divine without mockery. Yet, there are those who seek to divide us, keeping us in conflict rather than united."

[@unc1589]

Sharing much in common and truth are two different things.

[@ChicothemonkeyChicothemonkey]

@unc1589 yet both can be respected ,and work along or divided the wok culture and atheist with win

[@P.H.888]

Q how can two walk together unless they agree That can be to differ As long as it’s in freedom and peace But if 1 party is aligned to a mandate to dictate dominant and control Then NO! The Hebrew Scriptures and culture is built on Covenants First with Almighty God ~ YHVH Then Each other Marriage 1 man & 1 woman = equal to have children raising family. Truth & Love are paramount Godly. ✝️🩸🕊️👑🙏🏼

[@OrwellsHousecat]

Gangster Rappers from the 7th century

[@deltadom33]

I more lean to the Iran thesis What were mosques before they were mosques With the quran was it multilayered as was some of the quran written by the ummayids and then added to by the Abbasids How can we date the Quranic surahs as we know it is plagiarised As I know the Qur'an has more references to moses than any other character But I mean where did dhal kharnan and the pagan aspects of the Qur'an early I found it interesting that the Zam zam well is zoastrian I found it interesting with the Chinese sources

[@michaelwainaina4476]

greatest discussion of this century, keep us informed. Islam unmasked

[@bemindful6094]

😂😅

[@rays.2873]

Mel please make a video about whether Umar bin khattab was Amr bin Aas or Khalid bin Walid with Prof Kerr. The 3 names could be 1 figure I think Hoyland mentions something about it

[@IslamicOrigins]

I did already on old channel.

[@scholarforpeace]

It is not only mentioned in the Quran, Hagar, Abram's wife went there when Sarai bore Abram's son Isaac. Hagar went to Mecca and around Mecca the well/spring of water burst from between her child's feet. It is mentioned in the Bible, not only in the Quran. After the spring was found, the king sent his army to seize the spring but Abram contested the ownership of the spring. Mecca is mentioned in the Bible, but its name was changed to something else.

[@asgarextassyforces7239]

I am amazed by scholars who are truly objective in their science...some of them oppose it because of religious feelings. Take a look at the existing ancient Roman map...it looks like Mecca is written on the map and also the area named after the children descended from Abraham and descended from Ismail .see the Professor's presentation Menachem Ali, he is an expert in the field of Philology from Indonesia

[@dbiedler]

Thank you.

[@54446amir]

The Bible makes reference of “Baka”, which is one of the various names of Makkah. In the Bible, we read: “As they pass through the Valley of Baka, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.” (Psalm 84:6) The above variant of Makkah is similarly cited in the Qur’an. We read: Indeed, the first House [of worship] established for mankind was that at Baka - blessed and guidance for the worlds. (Aal `Imran 3:96)

[@toku_gawa]

I thought you said the book is corrupted😂😂😂. Like a prostitute looking for honour in another man's house, Islam needs of attach itself to anything good to hide it's shame

[@satmat6566]

The valley of Becca is not Saudi Arabia but part of Israel : Bakka means mourning , crying , weeping ! Not a proper name !!! The valley of weeping and wailing !! No kaaba is mentioned or existed historically ! Yahweh demanded his prophets and servants to build simple stone or wooden altars ! The ark of the convenant that the people of Israel carrried has nothing to do with the Kaaba ! The temple of Solomon’s design is another world compared to the Kaaba !

[@toku_gawa]

@@54446amir like a loose woman looking for honour in another man's house, Islam is constantly trying to attach itself to Jewish and Christian scriptures even going as far as calling Arabs descendants of Ishmael without any proof.

[@michaelwainaina4476]

Valley of Baca is in Lebanon , Jews passed on their way to Jerusam, so the Baca is not Mecca, and note Mecca is not in a valley...bUSTED LIE

[@deltadom33]

I always find it interesting that Muslims woke up one morning and say let's go to the desert and go to a pilgrimage there I know the inscriptions around Mecca first describe the first hajj was it during the Abbasid period or the mamuluks or during the ottoman period

[@markdoughty8780]

A very well-constructed, educational, and eye-opening discussion concerning the origins of Islam. It seems the truth is drawing ever closer. I recognized a couple of the panel, who have been and are formal Christian apologists and debaters at Speaker's Corner in London's Hyde Park. Thanks for uploading - liked it and subscribed.

[@Mayburyj]

I thought the p in Ptolemy was silent?

[@syedzainrehan]

Would it hurt to have a single objective scholar in the panel? I know why 😅 it would have destroyed all the silly arguments.

[@Potacrow]

These scholars are objective wdym

[@IslamicOrigins]

Prof. Robert Kerr, the Director of Inarah, is probably one of the most knowledgeable people in the world on the origins of Islam. He is an objective scholar, you 🥔. 😂

[@jamesmaybury7452]

Which argument do you consider silly and why? They weren’t fully bringing the evidence here as they know each other’s research quite well so, if you haven’t watched their individual, fuller talks you might also want to do that first. I would suggest searching for ‘Jay smith …’ as his presentation of the evidence is quite thorough. But I would genuinely like to hear any counter argument as I never like to be looking at things without hearing both sides. I would agree it would have been good to have someone who disagrees there too. Is there a person you would recommend listening to?

[@ecyranot]

Boy, I feel like a fool. I listened for 50 minutes, thinking I was getting a historical perspective free of agenda. Then one guys say "our Lord, Jesus Christ." It's kind of ironic when there are so many historical discrepancies in the Christian writings/gospels, and a large sect of Christianity believes the Bible is the verbatim word of god. The Muslims are in a tougher spot because the Koran itself, evidently, says it can't be changed because god protects it. But still, I don't know if I was fooled, or I was a fool not to know the nature of this panel.

[@cascarrabias397]

Very proud of you guys. Keep it up brothers.

[@mr.angelosonassis3069]

The meaning of 'The Believers' Movement' from before there was a Quran is that Arabs were called to replace the Romans and Persians and rule the world. The motive for doing so is that the Romans and Persians were 'unclean' ... religiously 'polluted'. The method to wrest overlordship from the Roman and Persian empires was JIHAD ... the 'STRUGGLE' to impose the eternal Laws of Allah. The Quran was written by Abd al Malik to justify his dynasty and his Umayyad Empire. These three (meaning, motive and method) are the essential elements of Islam as an imperial system of governance (Arabic: 'DEEN').

[@Corn-c1c]

It's great that you pointed it out, deen doesn't actually mean religion in Arabic, it means system of governance.

[@mr.angelosonassis3069]

@@Corn-c1c And 'me-DEEN-a' means 'the place of the government'.

[@Corn-c1c]

@@mr.angelosonassis3069 Thx

[@orunabho]

​@@mr.angelosonassis3069 oh

[@AlgoNudger]

Thanks.

[@ShoukatAli-jr5zj]

The origin of Islam as depicted by this panel is not totally unbiased. In coclusion the panel says Christianity is more authentic than Islam. The Panel did not invite an Islamic Scholar to present his view about the authentcity of Mecca, Jeruselam, Prophet Mohummed . the Panel consisted of non-Islamic scholars. So their viewes and conclusions about Islam has to be taken with a grain of salt.

[@IslamicOrigins]

Give a timestamp for where anyone on panel claimed Christianity was more authentic? Islam does not allow any Muslim to question it's historicity. So there are unable to discuss this. Why does Islam block western scholars from Mecca?

[@Karim-b1d]

I admire the hard work of a very great brave, intelligent and courageous group of people that contributed greatly and spend time to reveal the truth about Islam worlds most violence religion in the human history. Thank you for your time and effort.

[@James-k8w3g]

I'm Orthodox Christian and aware of what the church father St. John of Damascus said of Muhammed. That and the Ashtiname document at St Catherine's monastery at Sinai seem to be proof of both Muhammed's existence at the time. There is even a mosque on the grounds of the ancient monastery still used by Bedouin today.

[@IslamicOrigins]

The problem is that the section attributed to St John is likely an interpolation from a century or so later, which by then is just a reflection of Christian polemics against Islam. The Ashtiname has already been debunked: it is a clever forgery that was created to protect monasteries at a time when Islam was prone to attack them.

[@BryanPakkiri]

Makes sense the monks wrote the Quaran for Mohamed?

[@cavalier2097]

No one will find the truth without consulting the Holy Spirit

[@sicnarf423]

Know Islam, know lies No Islam, no lies

[@SBEQ-h1u]

The more you fight Islam the more people find the truth. Thank you all for a good job for Islam 😂

[@Christians0105]

JESUS CHRIST HE WARN US,IT’S WRITTEN IN OUR BIBLE FROM JESUS WORDS. ““I have told you these things so that you won’t abandon your faith. For you will be expelled from the synagogues/ Mosque,and the time is coming when ☪️those who kill you will think they are doing a holy service for God. (ALLAH AKBAR )This is because they have never known the Father or me. Yes, I’m telling you these things now, so that when they happen, you will remember my warning. I didn’t tell you earlier because I was going to be with you for a while longer.” ‭‭John‬ ‭16‬:‭1‬-‭4‬ ‭NLT‬‬ DON’T BE AFRAID ““Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭28‬ ‭NLT‬‬ JESUS CHRIST IS GOD OUR SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION✝️🙏

[@RubyJeans943]

The Internet is pushing back on Islam like it has never seen. May it return to the belly of hell from where it came & the world be rid of it once and for all. It is incompatible with humanity.

[@BryanPakkiri]

Research origins of Islam who wrote Quaran Mohamed was illeterate

[@michaelwainaina4476]

MORE STUDY SHOWS HOW FAKE ISLAM REALLY IS

[@latusalihyasalim4872]

it began with Adam and it goes all the way to Muhammad, including Jesus Moses David Solomon Aaron Job Isaac Josef Abraham and the rest of the them, may peace and blessings be upon them all.

[@Naeem-r5d]

Badr and Uhud are identifiable physical locations. Badr: A known site southwest of Medina, featuring a plain and a spring, matches descriptions in Islamic historical accounts. Uhud: Mount Uhud, near Medina, is a prominent landmark that corresponds to the traditional site of the battle. These locations align with textual descriptions from Islamic sources (e.g., Sira, Quran, and Hadith), providing a tangible link to historical events. Preservation through Oral and Cultural Traditions: Local communities and Islamic tradition have preserved the significance of these sites over centuries. They remain pilgrimage destinations for Muslims, maintaining an unbroken connection to the historical narratives. Graves of Key Figures: The grave of Hamza ibn Abdul Muttalib at Uhud and other burial sites are physical markers tied to the events described in Islamic texts. Badr and Uhud qualify as empirical evidence to a reasonable extent, as they: Are physical, observable locations tied to historical narratives. Match detailed descriptions from Islamic sources. Are supported by cultural continuity and oral traditions.

[@malcolmdias7532]

Interesting discussions

[@heshamgalal68]

🙂 There's two types of idolaters: 1- type one : a man living off grid have no access to any scripture whatsoever, and he decided- out of ignorance-to worship a mango tree 🎄 , cause it produces delicious mango. 2- type two: a man have all the access to the scripture, but he decided to worship a man who declared that he can do NOTHING by himself [[ John 5:30 ]] , prayed to THE FATHER [[ Matt 26:39]] , and denied deity in public [[ john10:30_35]] , and the man declared that [[ THE ONLY TRUE GOD IS THE FATHER ]] [[ john17:3]]. Type two idolaters is basically a hopeless case .

[@nachman5570]

When did protesting begin😮

[@AMDAVID365]

Why you didn't invite Mohamed Almasiah to this discussion. He is well knowledgeable in this area. Almasiah worked with Gerd Puin on the San'a manuscripts. He also wrote a book called, "The Early History of Islam." He busted the myth and he has some solid evidence to back his claims, such as who Muhammad really was and where he truly came from.

[@IslamicOrigins]

It was the first year of this conference, there were hundreds we'd have loved to have there. Hopefully, each year we can have more speakers.

[@mohbubmiah955]

We don't base our religion on history of non-muslims finding. Quran mentioned about Mecca and another name for Mecca is bakka which is also mentioned in the Bible

[@IslamicOrigins]

Yes, and the baqqa in the bible is in Jerusalem. Checkmate.

[@Wise007Man]

the Saudi authorities are saying that the "Kaaba" has no "Kebla"

[@eltiempo2020]

All white men panel how nice----- I wanna hear their pure unbiase versions of world history....

[@IslamicOrigins]

Are you a racist? Why does skin colour matter to you?

[@eltiempo2020]

@@IslamicOrigins Racist? I doubt it. White European men have historically written others' histories through a Eurocentric lens, distorting and diminishing non-European perspectives. Orientalism is a key example, misrepresenting and erasing Middle Eastern history while reinforcing Western superiority. This bias has shaped how cultures are viewed and understood. These men on the panel is prime example, so no thank you!

[@schmuckpuppet4842]

Wow, you are so perceptive. So if I follow your logic, then anytime I hear a bunch of Arabs talk about Europe they also should shut up? A bunch of Africans cannot talk about America? A bunch of Chinese can't talk about Africa? What is your point? Is your point that the white man is somehow inherently evil? If that is your point, then I would have to congratulate you on having a brain that has been succesfully washed.

[@crossedfalcon23]

Does the star and moon belong to byzantine empire flag?

[@peacock69mcp]

This Mecca has become a big conundrum after Quran and Muhammad.

[@coltonconner782]

The book the man the place no of it adds up without water

[@muatafasawalha3592]

No one asked why there were Jewish tribe in Madina/Yathrib in Arabia. Well they were in Jerusalem, until 70 AD, they migrated from Jerusalem south hoping have the Mesiah as the Old Testament tells them that next Prophet will be born in the land of Kidar and town of Bakka which another name of Mecca and Kidar is in Ptolemy maps. This panel completely agree with each other, and each other’s work. Amazing !!!!

[@anthonymbate3187]

Bakka is not another name for mecca. This word bakka is in the bible, and it's a place of weeping. It is where ishmael, as a young boy, almost died of thirst when Abraham kicked them out by as commanded by God. Here, God provided a watering hole.

[@schmuckpuppet4842]

They left Jerusalem because the Romans had kicked them out and forbade them to ever set foot in the city again. And guess when they came back to Jerusalem... Hmmm, what year was it? Oh right, it was after the "believers" (muslims) conquered Jerusalem in 637. Now what does that tell you about the relationship between the "believers" (muslims) and jews? Try to use logical thinking. You know, like 1+1 =2.

[@ssk7356]

It is ironic that non Muslims clarify the religion, with hateful statements hidden by calmness

[@ssk7356]

All their statements are wrong and I challenged them all in open channel

[@mohamaisa5389]

It was a good discussion and the topics was well expressed by the various panel. What you scholars did was to proof that Islam is here to stay. Because muslims are not taught to force people to believe in Islam yet their religion grows. Regardless of all the view points concerning it origin which are debatable it is the teaching of the religion that drive people to it. Just as the early fathers of Christianity never took Jesus to be God, Christianity grows. But as it grows in Europe before spreading to regions of the world the idea of the Divinity of Christ emerge stronger and the core of Christianity falls. Despite all the traditional changes that u are try to bring for the origin of Islam, Mohammed and the Quran, these people have been able to keep the core of their religion. Do you think these discussions was not done in the early days of Islam among arabs of Arabia and even early europeans who saw the religion as a threat to Christianity. Why did it failed? Once the core believe of a religion is kept it is always difficult to break it. This for me is the greatest strength of Islam. My advice is to get Muslim, Christian and Jewish scholars to discuss about these abrahamic religions. Then you can raise these points and i assured u christianity will have very little to proof as a religion itself, and also u will be surprised that Judasm will also have very little to proof it origin. First canonise bible was also 300years AD. Death Sea Scrolls is also 1000years older than. Quran was completely recited at the last ramadam of the prophet. Which one of them has a better origin. Thank U.

[@DusTman761]

We ave 32 different arabic Quran today

[@gk-qf9hv]

The moment I see Jay Smith, I'm out of there. No serious akademics will invite him.

[@IslamicOrigins]

You are not serious. You can't even spell "academic" correctly. Learn to crawl before you attempt running... Jay knows more about Islam's origins than you will never know.

[@gk-qf9hv]

@ so you know so much about me because of a K letter. You must be god 😂

[@IslamicOrigins]

@@gk-qf9hv If you are going to say someone is not academic enough you sure as hell better be semi-literate.

[@gk-qf9hv]

@ if you think he is literate, then you are not.

[@IslamicOrigins]

@@gk-qf9hv The point stands with you. You are in no position to judge another's academic credentials. Jay has a Phd, so objectively he is an academic. Slander all you want, but you are neither fair nor truthful. He is at the top of the academic ladder and you are with your poor spelling are at the bottom, that's just the truth. So be humble.

[@osmantokul2034]

İslam began with Adam pbuh and God perfected his religion with Muhammed SAV

[@jamesgibson7954]

There is obviously a difference between Westen scholarship and Muslim scholarship on Islamic history. ... There is a need to bring the two sides together in measured discussion on historical and exegesis methodologies.

[@IslamicOrigins]

Oil and water don't mix. Either we have a methodology based on historical criteria or we don't. Assertions based merely on religious conviction is fine but it isn't the historical critique methodology. If Muslims scholars did that, then they'd be on the panel, but they don't do: they toe the party line and ask soft ball questions, propping up the religion. Saudi money keeps them sweet.

[@jamesgibson7954]

@IslamicOrigins Then Islam, as we know it, will fail. It's already been reduced to a religion of violent enforcement.

[@johntherock3552]

Consider the informant for muslims is in the mind where the demons whisper ..viz 28 somewhere in the qoran "i am the great Deceiver "

[@lahceno2168]

They have never been to Mecca and do not speak Arabic, but they know more than the inhabitants themselves? 🤔

[@IslamicOrigins]

90% of Muslims will never visit Mecca in their lifetime. 90% of Muslims don't speak Arabic. On the panel was Prof. Kerr who reads and speaks Arabic to an academic level. The panel know a huge lot more than most Muslims will ever know about the geography and history of Mecca. So your point is pretty dumb tbh.

[@lahceno2168]

@@IslamicOrigins Even the weak hadith is more credible than the Bible . The devil has put you on the wrong path.

[@schmuckpuppet4842]

Wow, what a great point. Everybody knows that people know all the details of their local history for thousands of years back and that people from outside are always liars who don't know anything. That is such a great point! You really have to have been born in a place to know its history. Or, you just have to visit a place and then you can magically download the entire history into your brain. Thanks for the reminder!

[@pro-multipolarworld7627]

Bunch of novices talking of subject they know nothing of.

[@IslamicOrigins]

Novices? Each of us have spent at least 10 years studying this field. Prof. Robert Kerr is the world's leading expert in this field. You on the other hand are an uninformed novice. What a joke!

[@radwanabu-issa4350]

Every time I watch a video attempting to discredit Islam, I notice a completely new topic being raised. This makes me wonder what happened to the previous arguments and why they were abandoned. I realized it’s because those arguments didn’t hold up under scrutiny and were contradicted by archaeological findings and discoveries. This pattern has persisted since the very first day Prophet Muhammad made his call to Islam.

[@IslamicOrigins]

Silly argument. Knowledgeable people can actually hold and present multiple ideas and arguments. As we discover more, we will keep adding to the overall argument and make it deeper. I notice you haven't made reference to anything in the video, so I can safely assume you haven't even watched the video.

[@spitfire5544]

How will it end?

[@Sapakangi]

Timbuktu also was not mapped so Europeans didn‘t found it a long time.

[@diamonddave1481]

Apparently Joe, from Red Judaism, was supposed to attend. But he just couldn't find the right pair of shoes to match his attire.

[@IslamicOrigins]

Well no, he is not a Christian. This was a Christian conference.

[@diamonddave1481]

@IslamicOrigins or you just didn't have the staff required to do his make up, hair and multiple wardrobe changes? You just don't know how to treat a grande dame, I suppose

[@IslamicOrigins]

@@diamonddave1481 asking for the nail polish was a step too far. 😜

[@drislalaoui2274]

The most relevant conclusion I learned is that Inarah is no more independent institute.

[@syedmaricar9946]

Keep on discussing til the cows come home

[@2bittesla]

The panel missed the beginning, how it all started. An in-depth study of ancient trade routes reveals the established Christian and Jewish communities along its entirety. Arabia was no exception. Mohamed, at the very least, had a rudimentary understanding of Christian and Jewish teachings. Islam is what Mohamed created with that knowledge.

[@shubeer4963]

Makkah was previously known as Bakkah and is also mentioned in the Bible. Also, maybe the water being brought in to Makkah that you talk about is for flushing toilets? I would think it would be wasteful to do such things with Zam-Zam water which has been flowing since the time of Abraham and considered sacred. Maybe also don't go looking for a place called Mecca, the name of the place is Makkah.

[@TravelsOfNema]

An old joke : "A jewish man walked to his Rabbi and said, "Rabbi ! *You won't believe what happened to me* !" the Rabbi asked, "What happened?" and the man replied "My other son just converted to christianity !" the Rabbi said "SSssh, not so loud, *you won't believe what happened to me* ! My other son _also converted to christianity_ !". The man was horrified to hear this and said "Oh lord ! Our sons have converted to christianity ! What can we do now ?!" the Rabbi said, "We have to pray together and ask guidance from god !". The Rabbi lifted his arm towards the heavens and said "Oh god ! Oh lord ! Hear us ! Our sons have converted to christianity ! Give us guidance !!! What do we do now ?" after a small pause there was a voice from heavens. It was god's voice and he said "SSssh, *you won't believe what happened to me ! ... and he was my only son.* "

[@Phantom-of-the-knight]

It’s all well and good having the debate. Involve the heads of Western politicians and Islamic scholars involved so this topic can be dismantled once and for all so we know how we, as humans, progress. Otherwise I see doom and gloom.

[@osman3404]

If Mecca did not exist or known then why did Abraham and Hajar migrated there?

[@IslamicOrigins]

That's not proven by any evidence. 😂