Glidecam VS. Zhiyun Crane 2

[@STONJAUS_FILMS]

Men this is not a review... this is a PRO tutorial on how to use stabilizers.... best video about stabilizers I've ever seen... hats off .. thank you.

[@ezaitulezanee7400]

Most agreed

[@thiesp4285]

I think it´s a payed promotion for both artickels because you can buy those things from other branding for half of the price.

[@raven_visuals]

Man and we still get to see people who disliked the video. Something wrong with them. I just saw this vid today and it was super helpful

[@Ram-lr6ud]

So today I learned that "The Glidecam is a natural extention of your arm"

[@uark0321]

Ram 😂😂

[@Wonderfield]

i'm freaking howling here ahahahahaha

[@alrick3000]

Lol. It does seem to be the case though.

[@Levi_Allen]

You should *definitely pop up the app* to adjust the response settings on the Crane 2. This made a big difference for me getting away from that "robotic response" to adjusting the angle.

[@jakekamensky7442]

I hear what your saying Parker, of course, I agree most of your scenarios each one had its pros and cons. But overall the crane is better. The glidecam is more natural but less professional looking.

[@ricardourroz9322]

Lefycoast . what are your settings on your Crane 2 so it cont be so robotic? Have been changing mine but I can´t nail it. Any thoughts?

[@AlexTimelapse]

my experience with the crane 2, is not smooth in panning or tilt, and yes i had big problems to balance a blackmagic camera, i found teh Moza air works more smooth and i can hold a blackmagic, ah is cheaper and come with a dual handle to use with heavy setups , same payload than crane 2, much better deal to compare with the glide cam

[@mrzeromafia]

Jake Kamensky Sled type of stabilizer has been used for ages, for example Steadicam, I don't know what you're talking about regarding less professional looking. Crane/Electronic Gimbal is great for ease of use and overall comfort, less worrying about stuff, but I found the footage it produce mostly a little bit bouncy and lacking in natural panning, I'm pretty sure in future they will address this issue and come up with the solution.

[@AlexTimelapse]

ages ago i worked with big steadicam setups, then for my own projects i got a glidecam about 7 years ago, then 3 years ago started to work in my professional projects with Movi, then to a similar but cheaper DJI ronin, then to zhiyun crane, and then moved to Moza Air, working more smooth than zhiuyun crane gimbals and more features was a real upgrade from zhiyun , i do not miss that steadicam expensive and big setups or even the DJI ronin, with a mirrorless camera i get same results(much more options) than with older systems but now i bring in my backpack everywhere (this is a big big plus) you can check on my channel some of my work done with moza air

[@SharpStudios0]

anyone gonna mention how much this guy can do, play guitar, long board, parkour.

[@luboyanev]

hahah

[@juliank227]

and walk and talk!?!?!?

[@SharpStudios0]

i knew i was missing one

[@alaricsim9151]

Talking to himself? I mean who can do that???!

[@nateteahan]

You should have seen the dancing clips that didn’t make it in here 😉

[@BrianMakesFilms]

I just love the look of the Glidecam so much more in most scenarios. The slight imperfection, lack of motorized feel, and organic nature of the footage keep drawing me back to trying to master the Glidecam, even though it's a lot more difficult. I have one of the original cranes, and I just don't love it as much as the Glidecam. I also love that you can't (easily) break a Glidecam. It can work in harsh weather, it can get thrown around in the trunk of your car, and sit on the ground and still work just fine.

[@Dirtmonkey]

This was a great video- right to the point- none of the waiting for information. You nailed this.

[@JornKnuttila]

This comparasin is awesome, and I appreciate the effort you put into this project. I kind of reminded me of trying to compare a manual vs. automatic transmission. Anybody could walk up and argue one is superior to the other, but it would be subjective. Not only does it matter what you are trying to o do, it has a lot to do with your skills. In many places the glidecam won due to it's versatility... but that success had a lot to do with it being in *your* hands. You are like a 10 out of 10 handling a glidecam; I'm probably a 5 out of 10. :) The crane would likely yield better results for me in my hands, because I'd benefit from the "automatic transmission" in this case. In other words, the robot helps, but only up to a certain point. After that, human skill is required.

[@AGPvideoWeb]

it's exactly that

[@CyberEditing]

Superb, logical / scientific side by side comparison using identical equipment. Really professional concept & execution !

[@jmann316]

I prefer the look of the glidecam in almost every test. It just looks more natural in its movements. Plus there's something more satisfying about having to develop the skill to glidecam properly.

[@Kevinhers]

Parkour part, Glidecam super win :D so natural, even though i have zhiyun crane

[@daledale5693]

Hanap ka na ni alinh cely kuya kevin

[@mcmiellaycardo4652]

Nandito ka pala Valdo HAHAHAHAHA

[@janpuedanvisuals7577]

2 years ago na pala master layo na ng inabot mo .. God bless!

[@edgarcastillo7005]

Ang galing!

[@reynaldsagolili9775]

korek

[@natea743]

Everytime he says “natural extension of your hand/arm” take a shot

[@Nat0ri0us]

6:00 guitar guy is trying so hard not to laugh after hearing Parker's passionate expression of his love for the glidecam 😂

[@ahmadpintu1]

Glidecam more natural in action and live. Crane2 more smooth in shoot but hard to do creative angle.

[@doolacreativeshop]

Glidecam definitely allows more creativity from the handheld perspective!

[@ChaoticMatters]

Why does he keep punching us? :'(

[@JjangEda]

He started learning boxing

[@jmann316]

It's from his team supertramp days.

[@InspireDose]

ChaoticMatters lol

[@phuchome123]

haha lol

[@TheOrisya]

and spitting while doing so 😁

[@MikeBernalMusic]

Good video! You can use the Zhiyun app to change settings on the crane, may change your opinion on the responsiveness!

[@thespectatorsproductions6709]

Talking about this set-up (1dx + crane), could you add a quick remove plate or it would be simply too tall ?

[@notdaones]

I know this was a while ago. Could you plz share some settings

[@chris.kneeland]

Not going to lie, I prefer the look of natural movement by the Glidecam to the Crane. There comes a point when you can have too much stability.

[@2Girls1Cock]

PRIVATE PRIMATE You have no idea what you're talking about!

[@lazyh-online4839]

PRIVATE PRIMATE it's true that how it's used is more important than the tools itself, but the tool does impose limitations on what is possible for the user. Look at the race at the beginning of fate of the furious, it's oversensationalized action shots but still conveys a good message about the importance of the driver and not the car, but if you took the car Dom was in and placed it against a Koenigsegg one:1 in a straight line race for 2 miles then Dom would probably lose. You can't exceed what the tool is capable of, even if you're using it in ways nobody ever imagined before, and gimbals and manual steadies have a greater tendency to give certain kinds of shots. Even taking into account incredibly skilled users who can create unheard of great shots with either one, how many people do you think there are that have the skill to get rid of that robotic look of the gimbal shots, and how many people do you think take the time to learn all the tips and tricks to using a glidecam? Just because one is capable of exceeding expectations does not mean it is the norm or what everyone should be trying to do. That's why even though yes it is a tool, it's also a look that the tool gives each shot.

[@jhfrank87]

@PRIVATE I disagree, it is a look. There is a distinct look to shots taken on a gimbal.

[@franklinmichael671]

The reason the glide cam looks more natural isn't because the gimbal is stabilizing the footage too much, it's because the manning and changes in angle look more robotic and aren't smooth like it is on the glide cam.

[@keveanjo24]

I wonder if the glide cam is a good extension of your hand and arm

[@immanuelmarkov140]

me too

[@joshuasmith6165]

Thanks for making this, Parker. It's frustrating to see review/comparison videos that waste so much time talking about the product itself rather than seeing it in action. You and your crew got straight to the point and it certainly solved questions I had about both products. Thanks!!!

[@hoangvunguyen9311]

Steadycam has the cinematic feeling if you ask me. Specially, when you do following shot or guide shot. The Gimbal maybe good for commercial shooting when you need super smooth footage.

[@robertmigundagitau7975]

Special thanks from Kenya. Best teacher Ever

[@AllgoodthingsTv]

Great review! To the point, informative and fair. I'm looking at the Ronin DJI 2, but they're taking forever with it. Might have to get a Zhiyun crane 2 in the interim.

[@wanderingyoana]

Well, 2 years later they finally released it

[@picsandclipsmedia]

This is exactly what i was needing to know for real estate. Keep making videos...your reviews are the best

[@MeAndMyOpinions_OverYours]

@6:00 that whispering "ohh yesss" 😂

[@timchung986]

6:00 think you're enjoying that just a bit too much

[@diceflawless9115]

lol I noticed that too!

[@lonewalkerproductions]

Lmao

[@zachfortney]

Glidecam feels smooth and organic. Gimbals feel like you are watching through a camera

[@HumbleRoad]

Excellent work. Your writing and narration were spot on for a comparison review.

[@claesweicher223]

Looks like it's a bit of essential to have both depending on what environment a project gets filmed in and what style you need. Definitely going to get a glidecam since i just discovered my gimbal made a live show I shot recently look sort of dead/boring because it was too stable in the footage despite moving around to keep it interesting.

[@leecarvalho330]

I love thw way thw glidecam looks....its like a badass equipment

[@JSRMedia]

Glidecam wins because the parkour footage looked way better on it! 😉

[@aaronmitchell1493]

“Natural extension” means you have more control as a videographer. This is hugely important for a professional photographer because you don’t have to “fight” your gear. I liken it to putting your camera in manual mode. You just have to know how to use it. Once you learn, you get much more than if you put it in auto mode. Plus, you don’t have to charge the glidecam. Most of us already have enough batteries to worry about keeping full.

[@ariesetiawan38]

I prefer to glidecam, you can do more natural motion in stead of just playing with the joy stick

[@emmanueloluyori]

I worked with a glidecam two days ago and I enjoyed it more than I thought I would. Seeing this video makes me appreciate it more.

[@JT32296]

11:30 when bae texts that she’s home alone

[@MalcolmMcLoughlin]

😂

[@morganmurdock2546]

Great, great, great comparison. I know you love your Glidecam because you've used it for a million projects, but I still feel like you were very unbiased and have a fair opinion of both.

[@GarydeeFilms]

That intro just answering & skipping everyones typical comments. 10/10 lol

[@wildernessandme]

I love this, not bias and STRAIGHT to the point. No non-sense chit chat!

[@HurzMurz]

Really nice video, Parker! Thanks for that! The quality is very good and you show us every possible usage of these stabilizers :) I really like my Glidecam and now I know if I could need a Crane for my upcoming video-projects, ... or not :D Greetings from Germany, Phil

[@oneonlynono]

PRIVATE PRIMATE so would you recommend me NOT to get the Crane 2 if i already got the Glidecam ??? Plz

[@bigdap100]

Parker has the best comparison videos...love the ones with the Red vs smartphone.

[@justoneperson]

WOW what a great video. This was the first video of yours I've see, I like your style. Thanks for posting.

[@Slayer1111111111able]

what an amazing comparison of the use of electronic gimbals vs mechanical stabilizers! The best I have seen thank you very much!

[@phuchome123]

Thank you! I love Glidecam and love Parker Walbeck. :)

[@msreviews]

The best video comparison of Crane and Glide cam, thank you so much for this great video.

[@elijahcarr4137]

Glidecam? Who's gonna get this now instead of a prosthetic arm, since it's a more natural extension of your arm

[@oneworldvideo]

That was an INSANELY comprehensive and well done review! One of the best comparison videos I've ever seen! Would love to see you do a review like this once the DJI Ronin-S comes out as it seems that gimbal's sports mode would take care of the shortcomings you experienced with the Crane 2.

[@lukemossbarnett336]

This was all just a set up so he could flex having 2 1dx mkiis

[@raven_visuals]

You are negative asf

[@lukemossbarnett336]

@@raven_visuals I was only joking, I enjoyed the video!

[@bet_ican]

Your content is the best. You give us so much information and explain it well. I just stumbled across your channel this morning and I’ve been watching all day. Thank you

[@antonv.]

Crane all the way

[@FlorianLiehr1981]

true..

[@hideousmusicianist7084]

Better get both

[@ksubsnovideo-yv1qe]

true.

[@joeltunnah]

Except all the shots where the Glidecam looked better.

[@Serenify10]

That was such a dope in depth look into both. I just ordered a glidecam and am super excited about utilizing it!! Thanks Parker!!

[@PunkBrian]

Yeah if I had a $6000 camera with a $1000 lens and then finally a $1000 gimbal. I can’t afford it but fun to just watch what pros do

[@cmdr.shepard]

PunkBrian There are glidecam copies that are just as good just a little bit above 100$. And you don't really need a 6K$ camera to get cinematic look, 1-2K would get you great results as well.

[@paradoxpropshop9624]

Better to get a good lens and a bad body then a good body and crap lens like i did

[@Macmittens411]

Prequel name some $100 ones then

[@cmdr.shepard]

Macmittens411 type "hd2000" in Aliexpress.

[@Roflmao0001]

Get a cheap DSLR off ebay, some cheap lenses there too; and then even a used glidecam. You could have a cheap set up of this for $1000 easily

[@birdseyeofbigsky9336]

Fabulous comparison- thank you very much for taking the time to share this and your perspective on these two wonderful tools! Great video!

[@Pranjal_Das]

the long distance background was vibrating in the crane when zoomed in

[@MuhammadAli-tt2sn]

He can play guitar , parkour , skate board , can talk with his own self , can enjoy the music with out the music ... The model ❤️

[@ManuShapopi]

I just realized You're using two 1DX mk2's 😍😍😍

[@ush45]

I mean.. you watched the video right? He says it right at the start while he's holding them right infront of us...

[@ManuShapopi]

Wow, no way!!! I totally didn't notice. Thanks for pointing it out.

[@doolacreativeshop]

Those cameras are absolute 🔥

[@svenfilms7037]

You can adjust the smoothness and the speed of the movements with the Zhiyun App. Most issues that he had when comparing could have been fixed by tweaking the settings.

[@Danygotaworldtosee]

love the video dude..so interactive.

[@smaranalva]

Loved this one! You've done by far the best comparison for the two stabilizers

[@CELLYYBO]

It's just something about the glide cam that the gimbles cant achieve !!

[@giangnguyentranlam5632]

he can use a 10lbs glidecam with a huge dslr mounted on it way better than me with my gopro on a tiny gimbal in terms of footage stability. i have all the respect in the world for this man.

[@josephvincent9791]

Summary - Crane = ROBITIC 😂 Glidecam = Natural extension of my hand😂😂😂🔥

[@priyashanthadesilva9568]

I think steady cam is enough for my work. tnk u for the video.👍

[@fahddanazimi2434]

You have successful convince me to save up and buy both. Lol

[@michaelfrymus]

I used to own a gimbal (still technically do) but I ditched it and now I have the DGS Glidecam and a vest/arm system. I am learning it, but I love it a heck of a lot more than the electronic gimbals.

[@ericknorpp8238]

I respect your opinion, but a glidecam is oldschool and a complete pain in the ass to use compared to the gimbals these days much less the crane that works right out of the box. Yes you have mastered it but there is no comparison for someone just starting out or who has never used a glidecam. Hope your not offended but that is the truth and yes I have used both many times. I would NEVER suggest someone to buy a glidecam when the Crane is cheap and works pretty flawlessly even if you do not balance it correctly.

[@abdurrahmanmoustapha]

Eric Knorpp I got your point,but for me,the Glidecam is easier to hold and operate and the crane makes me tired quickly and makes my hand very inflexible .. I don't know why .. even the DJI Osmo is pain in the "hand" for me .. I love my Glidecam HD4000

[@alloneword154]

Eric Knorpp Witch one would be better for the cannon 80D? I'm worried about the camera and lenses to be to heavy as it's right around the max payload for the crane

[@curryshotyou1538]

THANK YOU! I mean you hit it right on the head!

[@HarmonicaMustang]

I understand your point, but I feel like when beginners struggle through the outdated/obsolete/manual gear, they stop to think about what they're doing more often than with newer gear that thinks for them. Here's an example; give a newbie a gimbal and tell them to film a short action sequence. They run around after the talent and get average results instantly. Now give another newbie a steadicam and repeat. They would notice that the steadicam itself does a pretty shitty job (after around an hour of setup) if they just run after the talent. So they find a different route to follow that gives them the right results while giving a better feel to the shot they did not expect. My point; By using old gear you learn to work things the hard way which is commonly slower and more tedious. However it also forces you to think about your shot in more depth than most young filmmakers and photographers do. Not planning ahead gets amateur results, and with tools that do the thinking for you the creativity plummets to cliches. By all means once you know your stuff use the easier/faster gear to get the desired results quicker, but I think learning the hard way is the best way.

[@ThanetTaout]

The look of the Crane and Glidecam are different. It's up to the person.

[@karlx-1]

The slightest breeze throws the Glidecam off, plus changing lenses may have only taken 45 seconds, but to swap cameras on a Glidecam takes a REAL long time. I just started using a Crane 2 and swapping cameras only takes a few minutes. I record the witness mark settings with each camera setup, then quickly apply them when swapping. I write them on white gaff tape and stick it to the C2 handle. The robotic movement of the C2 can be adjusted by the motor settings. That helped keep the motor actions lighter and more fluid. Excellent comparison piece though. Thanks!

[@JanPlaymo]

Really great video. Can you make a Video crane 2 vs. Ronin-S?

[@doolacreativeshop]

Yes! We'd love to see that comparison as well!

[@BrajKishoredas]

I'm using glidecam from 5 years just because of Devin super tramp and Parker.. thanks to you guys... n now i got crane 2

[@KSoul]

Nate does everything lol

[@DNASHOW]

This was really helpful! We're looking into getting a Crane 2 for our channel and I think that will be perfect for what we need!

[@edprod]

Glidecam

[@lollipop5967]

А спустя два года?

[@theTechNotice]

One thing I would add is that you could've changed the settings of the crane so that it would follow you much faster, then it would have been much closer in the "action Sport" section. :)

[@Markchristiankc]

Just wanted to ask if you'll then be looking to the Ronin S as it has a sport mode where it will follow your movements a lot faster. This was shown on iphonedo's video and it moves REALLY fast and is still perfectly stable. This would work a lot better than for live action stuff, the parkour thing and sports stuff :)

[@Markchristiankc]

Parker Walbeck ahh okay fair enough :)

[@flipflinstone6494]

I only hav one problem with the video's from iphonedo. (Look at all his video's) The tests are always very positive when he recieved a a new toy for free from a company. When he had to buy one himself he has much more critisisme. Look at his "tests" from the DJI Osmo's mobile (1 and 2) he never ONCE mentions the problems there are when using an Iphone!

[@zantigar]

GREAT comparison of both stabilizers! Excellent and subtle opinions about the advantages and disadvantages of each in different situations. Thanks for the super-perceptive demo!

[@adammasatogoldsmith8175]

Parker has some of my favorite content on KZbin, but I can’t help but notice he dresses like a 13 year old from a 90s era Nickelodeon show 🤨

[@GrantStinnett]

Dude! You have years of experience with the Glidecam. The Crane hasn't even been out that long. I don't have the skills you do with the Glidecam style stabilizer so most of what you did with it is impossible for me to get right on a first try. I own both and most of the time I can't use the Glidecam just because I don't have the time to learn to use it on the job. Have to get a good shot on the first try. My wide shot a music video for me the other day and she has never used a stabilizer before in her life. She could get some decent stuff with the Crane. But she wouldn't have even begun to get anything right with the Glidecam. I admire your Glidecam skills, but most of us don't have those.

[@thanosskillet]

"robotic movement"? am i the only one that feels that robotic movement is more cinematic?

[@pradipdeka7015]

Thanos Skillet you're not alone

[@FULLMETALAUTO]

Probably not the only one.... but I would say that steadicams have been used for decades in cinema so your perception of what is cinematic will be based off movies that use traditional steadicams that provide a fluid natural motion.

[@z1982_]

Robotic movement is not cinematic.... It feels like drone or I don't know

[@alexbauknecht676]

I completely agree, depends on what you are going for though

[@SymbioticSolutions]

Disagree. Motorized gimbals obviously seem very mechanical. Film movement is almost always more organic.

[@floatingrabbit3556]

I wonder if those dislikes can do a video better than this. I've used both a glide cam and a gimbal. This is by far the best showcase of the two i have seen online. Thanks.

[@asrafulalam9574]

where is this place??? anybody knows?

[@markkeady1732]

Utah.

[@asrafulalam9574]

Mark Keady thanks

[@0dteESmini]

Looks like heaven. very safe looking, mountains, beautiful

[@Bageru]

Los Santos

[@A12Diary]

You don’t have to kill him man. He’s just saying his opinion 😂

[@mattedpictures9008]

Great video Parker!! One of my favorite tutorial videos that you have done so far!

[@TonySU]

u are awesome.....

[@TheCreativeNomad]

I LOVE that preamble! There is no winner they're just different tools. So true!!

[@chandrashekarnagaraja4513]

Are camera cages good..

[@superhoov]

adithya shukapuri only if you’re rigging your camera out. Adding a mic, light, extra power option, etc.

[@terrybridges2856]

Dude, I gotta say YOU ROCK!...I'm looking for one to use for a ton of motorsports events...specifically oval track racing..would love to see what you'd do with that...love your style..excellent work my man! Keep up the GREAT work...you're a beast!

[@lartem12]

Its so funny that every time the Glidecam wins, its the natural extension of Parker's arm. It looked like because of Parker are way more experienced with the Glidecam, so he wanted to make it come as first.

[@salsamanrocks]

it also looks more natural and flows better in my oppinion

[@74jeepcj6]

Fuck me he couldn't have tried to be more objective

[@lazyh-online4839]

Anyone can become experienced with the glidecam. It's not the products fault that people may not chose to use it properly and that is something he addresses indirectly in the video when he talks about which is easier to use and requires less skill.

[@AerialLensVideo]

Really excellent comparison and very helpful - THANKS! You certainly have your "walk" down to an art. Great job all around, Sir.

[@SteveMichalak]

I own a crane v2. Love it. I have never used a glidecam but I do like how it’s kind’ve in between handheld and a motorized gimbal. It’s a nice balance and definitely a nice natural look. Nailed it Parker. Definitely no “winner” just different tools for different applications.

[@Capture.Castle]

This is exactly what a comparison video should be! The products are well-tested, you show plenty of test footage, you show the operator using the equipment, and all the tests are real-world scenarios. Well done, and thanks!

[@dustycrophopper2743]

The gkidecam footage was fantastic in all scenarios.

[@EdwinTobiasSonic]

Finally someone who keeps their knees soft while filming these comparison vids.

[@luboyanev]

That was the most complete comparison on youtube, so many scenarios, thanks for sharing!

[@tarantedong]

0:01 > Fulltime filmmaker?! Damn this guy is cocky af! 14:11 > Holy shit, what did I just watch?! Such a professional in so many levels! Subscribed!

[@saracenrush2010]

POV setting on Crane 2 allows you create angles. It follows your roll movement in addition to other movements.

[@femia.9298]

I own the Glidecam DGS. His comparisons are pretty spot on! I got a ZC and used it at a wedding once. After just a day of use, it looked all banged up like I've been using it for a year lol. ZC is quicker to use compared to the DGS. Both are great to own. Great educational content! Thanks for sharing!

[@harrelsontrumpets]

Great review! Thanks for taking the time to make this video.

[@VideoUpskill]

Great samples and comparison, I was a glidecam style user but now love the gimbal for professional shoots, so fast and easy to get amazing results.

[@philowww]

I was a glidecam heavy user.. But IMHO since gimbal more reliable and easier to use. There's no way a glidecam can match electronic stabilizer..especially for orbiting or follow with tele lens.. I must admit the new technology win.. But I still keep my glidecam just in case the electronic gimbal won't work, or in a heavy rain situasion.. The zhiyun crane and other more benefical in term of weight, stability, price, percentage of usable footage, size of carry, also can replace the slider and the jib.. It really can space up so many room for your bag.. For the unatural look of the fooatage it's only matter of adaptability, once you mastered the crane it will be more pleasing to the eyes :) Nice review by the way, really appreciate all the testing method !

[@JoeyTeckno]

Excellent comparison. Now I know I need to buy both. Each tool has its own use scenario, so both are needed. Thanks for sharing!

[@spo5egy]

I originally bought the glide and loved it. A few weeks later, I bought the crane and loved it. But now I can see myself going back to the glide for situations I just can't film with the crane. Just like an artist has many brushes.

[@MrBartmart]

Congratulations Parker! Your review is really perfect!

[@giolee1274]

Finally, been looking for a video on the Crane 2 with a 1DX MKll. Awesome job.

[@rafalcwiok]

This has been a debate in my head for a few weeks! Thanks Parker! I may invest in the Crane to assist me with my mini docs and travel videos!

[@mxrproductionsvancouver]

Don't do it! I bought the crane and regret it so much :( Go glidecam! The batteries, the robotic motion, and the fragility of it just sucks, also yeah the price! Glidecam is way more versatile!