This Meme Claims Permaculture is Low-Effort. What Does an Expert with 20+ Yrs Practicing It Think?

A meme about the transformative potential of permaculture for home gardens has been making the rounds. The post talks up the benefits of permaculture and includes the claim that permaculture is "low-effort".
Is permaculture design really low-effort? Is it less work than other kinds of gardening? I've been practicing permaculture for more than 20 years, and I want to share my perspective on exactly what the labor/input/effort ACTUALLY is when it comes to permaculture.
Val Herrmann, whose yard is featured in the meme:
www.floridafor...
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[@victoriawolfe686]

“I have no chill and I can’t help myself.” Same, Angela, same. 😂😂😂

[@tmzumba]

Haha! Same, same, same. My poor husband finally stopped trying to restrain me. 😂

[@jameskniskern2261]

The "lazy gardener" fallacy. I've found through my 17 years of permaculture practice, that setting up the systems are high up-front cost in effort. But with lower and lower effort as the time goes on. But... I've found that the effort shifts to harvesting and processing the yield. Just like you said. A friend when she walked around our place asked me, "What are you going to do with all of those pears, James?" I said, I don't know yet. But I'll figure it out as the time goes on. :)

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

This is why I cut back from five quince to 2. What on earth am I going to with five trees worth of quince??? Just the hours spent picking showed me I needed to cut back and make changes.

[@tanyadraper7588]

Definitely not low effort in the first few years! In response to our record breaking drought I decided to get rid of my lawn last year. I stumbled on to this channel and Canadian Permaculture Legacy and decided a food forest was the way to go. It took me the entire growing season last year to get the front yard done this year will be the back yard. A lot of research, digging, finding cardboard, shoveling woodchips installing more appropriate water system.... I am glad I chose to do it but right now still a never ending amount of work ( somehow I missed the memo on doing it gradually)

[@tgardenchicken1780]

Both channels will be wonderful teachers for you. Enjoy the process!

[@cathymadsen2930]

Lol... gardening gradually... I didn't know we could! All in or nothing I say!

[@lifelovelettuce]

Cardboard, wood chips and comfrey are my best friends 🥰

[@permiebird937]

Its only "low effort" when the system is well designed and mature, but that really is the shift of effort to harvest.

[@LonelyDistance]

It's only my first year of turning my yard into something more than lawn but this is a lesson I've been reminded of multiple times already, whether it's mulching my steeply graded yard or trying to will a transplant into good health I've had to remind myself that it's "baby steps, Bob" and sometimes those steps are labor intensive ones.

[@tgardenchicken1780]

Wise!

[@janetbrewster680]

Excellent video. Thank you. I began my permaculture adventure after retiring…not with youth on my side. He time I spend in my garden is the best part of each day. Each year much labour goes into expanding the food forest in a way that accommodates my physical abilities, my finances and my knowledge. It is work but, I agree with you, it is a joy to do this work.

[@miabagley2202]

I sometimes find myself being paralyzed by not being certain of the best way to move forward.

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

I think that can be something a lot of folks struggle with. You are not alone!

[@leahpace8707]

Truth. Front loading labor is spot on. It's pretty hard, especially if you don't use heavy machinery to do the big stuff. And maintenance is always a thing. I think, if you do this "right" and plan properly, the effort of tilling , traditional weeding, and watering/ fertilizing become dramatically less but you do have to maintain annual veg areas, "public" or zone one spaces, paths, woodchips, compost, pruning, etc. I do not till and haven't for years.... The only machines I use are a lawn mower and a weed whacker and we have 16 acres, with over half in a forest zone we haven't had to mess with. We probably will hire out the big pond digging but will dig small ones by hand. I'm currently in my late fifties and have spent the first five years here UNLEARNING the things I was taught in college and did as a career, which was ornamental horticulture and landscape designb in southern California. My farm is in Michigan, where I grew up. It was fallow and never an actual farm.... Except a six acre field was leased out to hay. No one had even lived here for five years. It's taken years to plan, plant, address areas that are nightmarish with grasses and "weeds" by layering and/or woodchipping, etc. I spend a lot of time begging for cardboard and moving woodchips (which I get for free but takes some planning), planting, propagating, maintaining paths, building compost, chopping and dropping, and harvesting/figuring out how to store and preserve food, etc. I'm not nearly at a place of low effort and probably never will be that. Our place is fairly large and can feel overwhelming for two people. And people will give you the side eye and not get it, so there's considerable effort explaining to people and I live in a rural farming community. People don't bother me about how things look, but most farmers can't understand what I'm doing at all. We don't buy much .... I bought this place because the resources here were amazing.... But trees ain't cheap. Plants aren't cheap. I can't even imagine starting this journey without having been a serious gardener for 30 years. I mean you can... Absolutely can.... But the learning curve is enormous.

[@leahpace8707]

I should mention I consider almost nothing a weed anymore except grasses. I eat a lot of stuff everyday right off the ground. I forage half my fresh food this time of year and earlier spring I forage more

[@acrow1714]

OMG Angela, thank you SO MUCH for addressing this! As a permacultural landscape designer, I have this conversation at least once per week. You said it: create realistic expectations, so that folks have the best possible potential for success, and do not become discouraged and give up.

[@williamgair3230]

Good Video ;) People ask me how long I've been practicing permaculture. It took me some time to come up with an answer that I was comfortable with. I took over an urban lot slightly under 1/2 acre and in desperate need 10 years ago. I had seen the video back to Eden. I had investigated permaculture. I loved both but had to figure out how they would apply here. I should mention I'm a retired Biologist, disabled, living on fixed Social Security income. The permaculture information was overwhelmingly geared to much much larger land space than I had, but I did not toss it out. Back to Eden suggested "if you have space that needs reclaiming but you have no idea what you are going to put there cover it in woodchip while you think it through." BINGO that makes sense and I totally suggest that to everyone. Heal your soil while you "think." As the years went by my space started to form up but more importantly my brain and my design took huge steps forward. I am far from complete. But my local community has been mentioning "We have watched you, it has been interesting. What happened two years ago? All of a sudden your gardens EXPLODED into fascinating beauty!" What happened? When the spring of 2020 arrived I had been healing my soil for many years. I had won the war on weeds (now manageable battles). I knew (for the most part what I wanted to plant and where for that year and the next couple of years. This year 23 trees went in and many many lower supportive shrubs etc. This year I get asked "Do you do design work?" LMAO ummm.... no but maybe in the future. So how long have I been practicing permaculture? Given how the space has played out and the line of thought and education I've undergone. I'm comfortable saying "Yep I've been doing this 10 years." It has been incremental, it has been logical (without analysis/paralysis), it has been a labor of love. It has also been the spreading of a couple hundred cubic yards of wood chips LOL. So yeah your right it is in no way "low/no effort." But it is enjoyable/rewarding.

[@lwjenson]

Thank you for this! It totally validates all the work I have been doing this year and will be doing over the next 2-3 years to make my suburb home of grass and weeds a food forest/suburban homestead/permaculture/backyard orchard/cut flower garden/native flower garden.

[@PegsGarden]

You are so right, it is a lot of work, I am slowly turning our front yard, but it is hard when you have arthritis in your back, so I have to pace myself, it takes time and a lot of physical labor, thanks for sharing Angela 🌱🌱💕💕

[@yeevita]

I think it is low effort vs traditional farming/gardening. I started more with roses and there was lots of fertilizer schedules, digging, pruning, and pest spraying schedules. Eventually I noticed that while nature gets better, the human traditional system did not. In fact, it seemed to me the pests were worse if I did not follow the schedule precisely and even following the schedule did not get rid of pests entirely. Instead, every year where I try to use natural systems to help me. am nowhere close to a forest. Just a more natural gardening approach. I find a natural system is definitely much easier, because it is much more balanced. Things sprout by themselves. Even if I do not refresh my pots or transplant, I will still have a lot of food in the garden. To me, it IS easier than the higher cost, hogher labor way I did decades ago.

[@lifelovelettuce]

I started 7 years ago with a stripped bare block that was previously farmland prior to (what looks and feels like) the strip-mining system of residential sub-division. I’ve made so many mistakes, but I’ve been on such a steep learning curve, I wouldn’t have had it any other way. I spend hours in the garden, but it’s my happy place. Thank you for your resourceful videos. I live on a tiny piece of land, but I’m still making this work. Nature is such a wonderful and (sometimes) gentle 🤣 teacher. 💕 Harvesting has become a huge job, but I love it so much 💕

[@Eva_noir.]

Thank u Angela for this video...I needed this today🥲 Sometime it is sooo tough especially when resources are limited, mental capacity is low and your body is not feeling well. Thank God I discovered your channel recently and been learning a lot.

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

Thank you for your kind words, Eva. Taking care of yourself and pacing yourself is such an important part of permaculture! Do what feels accessible to you and don’t feel guilt or practice self-judgment if your effort looks different than someone else’s! We’re all unique, just like our systems are unique.

[@O_U_No_It_2]

TRUTH I've made this mistake in my past. Of embellishment. Sugar coating the efforts. There's a part of me that, like she said, wants to glamorize permaculture. Or maybe, more accurately, make this lifestyle easily accessible by marketing carefree diligence. Wants to make it sound easy because so many of us are working so hard on the belief that it matters. That it deeply matters to this world as a healing succor for so many important reasons. It's grueling at times, and brutally tiresome others, but it's a good life with a sunset every evening and nature all around you! It's like the saying "you reap what you sow". You'll get abundance. Sometimes overwhelming abundance. But it definitely takes putting in the time. Love this channel, TY 🌱

[@victoriajankowski1197]

I have to admit, part of my draw to permaculture is as a 'retirement' plan, but earlier, I am already disabled, I should get better but life is complicated. I wanted a system that while not really being low effort is more high effort in broken up spirts, like cleaning and chop and dropping has a wider window than tomato planting, and if my fruit falls from the trees it feeds the ground and the local wild life, or I can invite others to pick it. Part of my goal is to have a system I can 'shop' from the majority of the year, and like a grocery store I might preserve a good deal (apple sauce anyone) but if I am just to sick or sore I might leave it on the 'shelf' for others, either other people on our property or their friend or the local wild life. That said I am going in with that in mind, I am strategically avoiding things that require large amounts of specific timely maintenance.

[@justalurkr]

I have 1/16th of an acre with more than half of two fruit guilds already in, and some days out there still kick my butt. Permaculture is still farming and farming is work. I'd say this is more flexible effort, but not necessarily low effort.

[@cathymadsen2930]

I'm in my second year of creating a permaculture garden. It was a bare earth new build and the only thing that was growing was weeds and grass. I'm exposed to strong winds on all sides as I'm the first house on my side if the street. A lot of time on my knees pulling weeds and planting trees, planning garden beds, failures, and mistakes leading to relocating plants! Right now it is far from low effort but I hope that in time I will have no grass and minimal weeds... then to me that will then be low effort... still lots of work but low effort because I will enjoy what I'm doing!

[@rosem7042]

Anyone can have a high-input, low-effort lawn if they've got the money to kill everything but grass and keep the grass on chemical life-support... transforming that urban hellscape into a fertile food forest that is low-input is the definition of a high-effort process. The payoff is that the ecosystem will (hopefully) take care of itself with minimal input once that initial effort is expended. Memers seem to have gotten effort and input confused 😕

[@sweetpeasbackyardgarden1236]

Love the contextual frame. Balanced views tend to be much more helpful in setting expectations. I live in Northern California. The last 8-10 years of droughts and fire have really changed our landscape. I have a garden (only on year 4). But, I've learned a great deal from shifting my mindset from gardening for the sake of just "eating food" to building an ecosystem that takes into consideration conservation of water. That shift in mindset alone took 4 years lol. Taking actions to build it incrementally will probably take another 4-5. Your remark about where you are on the spectrum, injuries, etc. resonated with me. Thank you.

[@nefraial]

As with all things it comes down to the phrase "It depends". What comparisons are being made? What are the perceptions? From my early experiences during the early '80s to now, I've learned a lot on how to do a lot of things smarter, and that not simply being a matter of "working" smarter. The main thing I've come to realise is people design into their system (and lives) how much work they want to do. People are always coming here and saying "Oh my! How much work you are doing!" Where I have to remind them I'm crippled, and say that I only spend 5 minutes a day out on my acre as there really isn't much to do. I'm happy for my food to grow by itself, both plants and animals, including around 100 chickens that need little attention, do a lot of "work" and pay me to do it. Sure, there are days where I've got to do some extra laundry or something but do I then say permaculture is hard work? My neighbours can spend a lot of time and money and maintenance on mowing and clearing while I'm happy to host someone's hungry sheep through the growing season and don't have to do anything. It is interesting that even at gatherings I will hear someone say "All this dancing is hard work". The system and design you choose to follow will define your work and play. I'm sure people have heard "If you're working too hard you're doing it wrong." Well it is more a matter of not following a pattern suited to your individual needs, desires and environment.

[@geraghtykv]

I really enjoyed the little look back to how your own property has developed. You always have such a clear, concise and respectful way of putting things. Thanks for the video !

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

Thank you, Kyle!

[@busker153]

The perception of low effort comes, I think, from the dramatic rewards that come, compared to just working an average garden.

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

Totally agree. Maybe I should’ve said this more clearly in the video but I see folks feeling overwhelmed because they thought it was going to be minimal effort. And the reality is perhaps more commitment than we have tried to market it as. Perhaps that’s it…we shouldn’t be “marketing” permaculture at all, we should have realistic portrayals instead of trying to sell books and clicks by exaggerating the results or minimizing the input.

[@busker153]

@@ParkrosePermaculture I want to assure you that your point got through very well, with great clarity. I was so happy to hear what you were saying that I posted comments. I always post separate comments for separate ideas. Partially, because the thought is there, and pausing the video makes for a nice way to release the thought, question, or idea. Then, there is the idea of separating thoughts. I love order, even if it looks disorderly to others (like my food farm), and it makes replying to only what you want easier on other visitors to your channel. Then there is KZbin's algorithm. More comments equals greater ranking; plain and simple. So, I figure, if your video inspires more comments, why not let it earn the points it deserves! Well, I just planted some Borage, here in Tucson, AZ, in almost hundred degree heat, so, it is nice to have a good reason to stay inside! LOL

[@AmelieHarms]

So much work and so little time/energy/executive function. 😆 But I slowly make my garden more and more mine, and more and more permaculture. What I really look forward to is a garden that I don't need to work as much on in the spring as in the summer and autumn. My work year does NOT work very well with an annual garden! So in that respect a mature permaculture garden will be a lot easier to manage for me. 😊 Thank you for your great channel and videos!

[@cholcombe973]

I agree. Permaculture was a HUGE push in the beginning but the work is starting to calm down now after 7yrs. It was also a large push at my previous place for 3yrs. Getting through our portland summer droughts was super challenging in the beginning when the land was burned out. Now that the organic matter content in the soil is rising and the guilds are starting to click together my job is changing more towards pruning, guiding and harvesting.

[@jordang7479]

I really like these meme breakdown videos!

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

Thanks, Jordan! Love your profile pic!

[@jordang7479]

@@ParkrosePermaculture Thanks : )!

[@ellens2476]

I so agree full stop. Initially when watching Geoff Lawton I bought into that 2days a year work he often mentions. Our garden is in year 16. The harvests are sometimes big even though I tried to spread the load by multi-grafting and therefore reap over time not all at once.still, other trees produce heaps. And thats what I want - but I need to dehydrate, freeze, bottle, juice, brew. Along with replanting annuals we love or even replacing trees (not as productive/desire able/useful as anticipated or just changed taste or learned about something better). All of that is work, let Aline the pruning. As we live in Akl many things grow year round (also many annuals) - a blessing and a curse as things just never stop. We’ve just been away to the South Island for 8 weeks, I could barely walk the back path from all the overgrowth. But I love it but its work!! Maybe its less work on a big section where you can leave a fallen tree as nature meant fir it. But not on a 685m2 section,( I gotta chip it all) So thank you for this as it makes ne feel less questioning what I may be doing wrong for I cant leave it alone and just do 2 days work per year. E

[@lifelovelettuce]

Ellen, I’m in Auckland and I know exactly what you’re saying. Sometimes I love that we have a 365 day growing season and other days I would love the reprieve of a snowy winter.

[@ellens2476]

@@lifelovelettuce hi, great to know of another person in Akl who follows this channel. I am in Sandringham, where abouts are you? E

[@lifelovelettuce]

I’m in Silverdale 😁 Sorry I didn’t reply earlier…I’ve been sick 🤒 but better now.

[@ellens2476]

@@lifelovelettuce phew, good that you’re back well

[@theartisanhomestead722]

Angela, do you have a podcast? As we’re spending a lot if time outside, in the garden in this season, and I listen to podcasts while I work in the garden. And I believe a lot of your video’s could work well as podcasts too. Thanks for all the knowledge you’re sharing! Karolien

[@gordonspears6320]

Great points, Angela. I also practice permaculture in Florida, I've also lived in California, and the two climactic zones are vastly different, with different weed species and pressure, different rainfall, and different suitable species. I often describe the work of permaculture as front-loading the laborious part so that I can shift to less arduous physical labor as time passes. I'm 63, so I have to plan for the inevitable future decline in my capacity to do hard physical work. Ive placed over 5000 pounds of concrete pavers into pathways and raised beds in my front yard (no HOA 😃). I totally agree that before building a garden, we should do the important, and no less difficult, mental work of design. I have a master plan, within which small installation projects can be completed to contribute to the overall build-out. Much of the work I've done was during the pandemic (a great and useful pandemic project), and already, I harvest far more fruits and vegetables from my 1/8 acre permaculture garden than I buy. Avoidance of labor is not my goal; making sure that my labor directly contributes to my nutrition and happiness is my goal. Simple abundance is not my goal; maximizing the diversity of high quality produce is my goal. So far it's going well.

[@mainegardenguy703]

Much less stressful than having to mow every weekend in the summer.

[@Coolguyallthetime2k]

Love this! And love your outfit! Permaculture is certainly not low effort, wtf lol

[@shredmetalshred7395]

Conventional landscaping is meant to be maintained - it HAS to be maintained. Permaculture is meant to design such that it maintains itself as much as possible. It IS lower effort than conventional landscaping and it IS a higher output than input.

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

Lower effort than conventional landscaping does not equal “low effort“. I think that is a really important distinction. Especially when folks are just beginning to learn about it

[@shredmetalshred7395]

@@ParkrosePermaculture absotootly. "low" and "effort" are 1000% subjective, so it's a hard argument to elucidate. Permaculture is not low effort, it's an entirely different quality of effort (than conventional landscaping). With that said, if we can acknowledge that conventional landscaping is DESIGNED to be maintained (by an industries supported by yet more industries), than ANY alternative will be lower maintenance/lower effort.

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

I totally agree with you. When I think about conventional agriculture I think about our consumer culture and how it can only function when we have to constantly feed it money and buy products while draining people of their energy and resources. It reminds me of conventional agriculture constantly needing to be fed fertilizers and pesticides while ultimately still draining the land of fertility. You make a really good point that conventional agriculture is designed to function within a profit driven consumer society so of course they wanted to continue to be high input over the years, because somebody needs to make a profit selling us everything that we need to sustain it. Excellent point.

[@catharinephoto]

Great topic today! It made me wonder how You plant trees. I don’t recall a video on that

[@maryadjalal5435]

Getting ready to start my homestead adventure in early June. I appreciate your reflections

[@busker153]

There is so much reward, both from the food, and from what we are actually accomplishing, that the work seems more enjoyable, but realistic expectations are vital to success. Great video!

[@ecocentrichomestead6783]

Wither permaculture is effort or not, depends on the attitude one approaches it with. The total physical effort to get to a mature system remains the same, regardless of how long it takes. If the approach is "I must have a full system in one year!", a lot of physical effort is compressed into that one year. One would also have to pay for the work someone else had already done in growing the nursery stock. If the approach is, "I will build a permaculture ecosystem over time, as I can afford the physical and financial time and resources." The effort is spread out till it doesn't seem like effort. If one thinks permaculture is sitting back, drinking margaritas, watching a beautiful garden grow. Well, it's going to be effort to that person regardless of time and/or resources.

[@busker153]

You can't cheat the mountain, but you can choose to experience pain on your own terms. My experience turning my yards into a food farm is that there is a lot of very hard work that has to be done. And, a lot of careful planning to make sure you are not wasting all that work and effort. I expect to be able to maintain my food forest with relative ease in ten years, but until then, there will be quite a bit of work to do, I am sure!

[@theartisanhomestead722]

I totally understand what you say, I think maybe the « low effort » vision is coming from rich people who hire someone to do the design and pick out all the plants (and choose for big plants, so they don’t have to wait years and years to start harvesting) and just pay for all the compost and labor that goes into not only design but also planting and taking care of the garden later on (like hiring someone to come for at least 1 day a week to do all the garden work). I see more and more people who do this. Not that it’s a bad thing, everyone who has the money to do this and turns their lawn into an edible garden is good, but they often don’t really understand how much hours go into it, because they’re simply not doing the work themselves.

[@MsAusarian]

I think the bottom line of the article that you shared said “The output is higher than the input”. I think that is a fair statement. The yield of a tree after 5 years, for example will outweigh my planning and nurturing. Shrubs may be 3 years. The work will never end. However, the question is, is it worth it. And the answer is, absolutely.

[@tgardenchicken1780]

Wise words. I Love gardening so 'working' in the yard is not work. I am guilty of saying permaculture is less work when I talk about it, and I see that it could be taken the wrong way. I will be rephrasing how I talk about Permaculture. Just because every step and nuance and stacking function fascinates me so it is fun, does not mean everyone will approach it that way. Now the focus will be on starting and taking baby steps, observing, reenergizing, healing the landscape. All things I have mentioned always but now I will be actually saying you may/will need to front load 'work' or as I put it effort. My health puts strict limits on what I am able to do, but still I accomplish quite a bit because I have learned to work with nature and not against it. Thanks for all your smart observations and clear thoughts on this topic.

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

I think this has been a big learning process for me because I find the work in the garden and with my poultry in my bed used to be so rewarding that it doesn’t feel like work most of the time… It is where I would prefer to be. But I realize as time goes on that perhaps not everybody has the intense level of focus or energy level to sustain it like I do. Or a lot of folks may see some things that I really enjoy as work. Or they may go into it thinking it takes less effort than it really does. And I just want to give people a realistic picture and also try to be more empathetic to the fact that not everybody has the same level of interest or energy or time to give to home scale Permaculture much less the work of advocating for redesigning whole systems, but that does not mean that they can’t do Permaculture just because it looks different than it does for me. The more I have come to accept that I am kind of a crazy plant lady, the more I realize that I need to normalize Permaculture and also make it more accessible because not everybody wants to do it the way I do it or has the ability to do it the way I do it. I think that is the beauty of Permaculture design - that you can tailor it to your level of interest and ability and still see a positive benefit.

[@gregorys447]

I’m reflecting on my last year plus of labor and am excited what I see growing this spring. So worth the effort. The learnings and results continue to grow my passion for the transformation of my 1/4 acre lot🌿

[@Nafo-Radio]

Effort and work are different things though, wouldn't you agree? You can do a lot of work with low effort or a little work with great effort. It is minimal work to make a compost pile. If you use the little and often approach then the work is as you said accessible to almost everyone. But it isn't a lot of work. It is dropping one thing into another thing over time. Low effort. Most of the work being conducted isn't being done by the practitioner. It is being done by nature. So the augmentation of activities between the human(s) in the system and natural causes is something that should be calculated. The process of "healing" you are discussing can't be associated with the human in the system beyond the establishment of the system. After that natural systems are the workers and human interaction is minimal at best or in other words, low effort. Of course, we need to consider the matter of scope. For a garden like mine, the scope is pretty small, so it has been mostly little work at low effort. The 18-acre land we have in Europe will be a lot of work at low effort considering the life of the system and its output. When you said, "permaculture is a design system," this actually makes my point for me. Permaculture is a design system to create sustainable habitation. By definition, the amount of energy in must be less than the amount of energy out so less work in than work out. This work is done at low effort compared to the amount of work to establish the system. Here I think semantics matters. Having said all of that. Though I disagree on this one I appreciate the videos and I have enjoyed them. Thanks for making them. Also, I am open to being wrong about my opinion here. :D

[@thusitha1986]

I agree with you 100%. Well said it!

[@innovativeatavist159]

I would like to point out that creating new habits and maintaining consistency with small daily practices is actually an incredibly difficult aspect of permaculture and life in general for a LOT of people. Anyone with an able body and a day off can motivate themselves to plant their backyard full of guilds or build a compost bin. The effort for a lot of people is mental. Remembering to do and maintaining the drive to do all the little things that keep the system running is a lifelong practice. In this regard permaculture is much more energy intensive than just throwing a standard landscape together and basically forgetting about it until it's time to trim the bushes.

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

I appreciate your points, but I’m not sure we’re actually disagreeing, here. Setting up a system is not a low-effort or low-work (I’m not sure I agree on your distinction) endeavor, particularly in very depleted locations. I absolutely agree once the system reached maturity, much of the interaction should be low work - as I said, we’ve carefully designed systems that care for themselves for the most part and use smart design to reduce our overall workload and increase our abundance. I’m speaking here to the notion that creating a permaculture system like mine or like the one in the meme is “low-effort”. That has not been true for me and I don’t want to give folks the false impression that it is. If we know what we’re committing to, we can engage more effectively and set appropriate expectations. I’ve seen lots of folks get in over their heads because they are unprepared, and here I’m hoping to express that we can have good design and implementation if we are prepared.

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

I also want to add that at no point did I said it’s more work in than yield out. If that is what someone is dealing with, they need to tweak their design. But an investment is more work at the beginning. There is no way to go from a yard of compacted clay subsoil with sod slapped on top to what I have now without a lot of mental and physical labor. But I broke it down into approachable chunks and quickly began to see yields. I think one of the biggest surprises folks find is how much time it takes to harvest and preserve food. (That’s a regen ag criticism of permaculture esp food foresting- lack of mechanized and efficient harvesting - to which I would say let’s just engineer some tech that works in permaculture systems!) Finding time to harvest produce when it is ripe and then process it is an under-estimated commitment in a mature system, imo.

[@Nafo-Radio]

​@@ParkrosePermaculture I understand what you are getting at but I can't get past the semantics, I think in this case they are rather important. Overall there isn't any part of the design process or implementation processes that I see as high effort. Actually, I think the highest effort work is learning the design system. I think of design and implementation as a sequence of low-effort decisions and activities. There might be many low-effort activities but I don't consider that to be equal to high effort only instead consistent effort. So I feel there is a reasonable distinction to be made between effort and work.

[@hopeofdawn]

How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

[@tyleralford9622]

Thank you Angela

[@imperfectlypermaculture]

It is definitely work and effort! For me, it's just work and effort that I prefer to that of more conventional gardening in the United States.

[@shanewatson7897]

I was just listening to David Holmgren on a podcast and he said his system is more work now than it was when he started! Saying permaculture was no work, he says, is "bullshit".

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

Ha! I should go find that interview!

[@shanewatson7897]

@@ParkrosePermaculture the podcast is Subtle Disruptors by Adam Murray, this interview was on 6/12/18

[@TeaCupSimmer]

I’ve only just started exploring the principles of permaculture (finding the books is so expensive) but I can’t imagine thinking it’s low effort. It’s become another time intensive hobby of mine just trying to learn and understand the principles and the way it can be applied to different sites. I don’t even have a yard yet. I’m just doing research and planning and it’s already a lot of work

[@TheEmbrio]

Oh wow ! Do you have a recap video ? If not i’d loooove for you to make one. The pictures of transformation were extremely interesting !!! (Your point of view too of course). Some clomate charts would also be very helpful to see if, as i suspect, oregon is similar to the atlantic coast of France.

[@darthfiende1]

I agree completely. I'm on year three of trying to rehab a completely neglected half acre with pitiful soil and noxious weeds as the only inhabitants. I can't remember the last time I was outside not engaged in some form of labor, even just troubleshooting. The humans in the system have a heavy burden the first several years of supporting everything in getting established before there's a yield and some resilience. I've certainly bitten off more than I could chew after being oversold on miracle practices and plants that don't turn out that way in practice.

[@yeevita]

Your weeds might not be so bad.

[@O_U_No_It_2]

You have such eloquence in your thoughts, behaviors and actions. A true teacher. Thank you so much for your efforts on this channel. It's a big deal that you take time from your super busy day to share this with us. I so hope that you are able to acquire financial success in your channel. More people need to see this and start living it. I believe this information you give freely is so important today. If I was a billionaire, you'd have your funding, lol🌱

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

Oh, thank you, Alan!

[@planetbob4709]

industrial farming = future desert by strip mining resources from the land. permaculture = land regeneration and accumulation of resources Permaculture ideology is to replace much of the mechanical work in food production with human labor. I like this idea. It makes since that a permaculture start up will be much more labor intensive in the beginning then as time passes the labor will transition to managing harvests. I have always understood that permaculture will result in more human labor but I also believe that it is far more rewarding and sustainable than the alternative which is the creation of deserts by industrial strip mining practices.

[@srantoniomatos]

This misperception comes from the permaculture origins its self. Bill "lazy garden", "in great danger of fallen fruit", etc. quotes and titles were part of propaganda since the beginning. Its part of the philosophy it self, definning permaculture in a reactive way to the traditional agro (intensive labor), and industrial agro (energy intensive), suposely going "nature way", "working with nature"... suposely being only "desing intensive". As it apeals to urban people with almost zero experience in the field, they romanticize it to a even higer degree. But, like all agro/gardenning, it takes time, money and work. And most people dont even realize that the "low effort" when maturity comes...can take decades to achive. And like all agro, its never finish and always takes care to be usable and produtive. What make it even worst in terms of work, it s the DIY vibe, experimentalims, and non specialization...its just less eficient.

[@srantoniomatos]

Another thing that put more time and effort is this misconception that all soils are depleted, barren, infertile, etc, so we have to "heal the land", to save the planet etc. Most traditional and industrial agro work in more messed up soils. Most permaculture lands aren t worst then the ones used to gardenning. People are spending to much time, work and money (and peatmoss!) Regen soils, instead of just planting for prodution and beauty. Most soils are fertile, even the messed up ones.

[@julesjay1634]

It is low effort if you find enjoyement in it, i agree 100 %

[@Meskarune]

Everyone who lives in Florida says gardening is "low effort" and easy. We just need to ban people who live in Florida from saying this.

[@growshakephil]

Am I the only one who watches your videos to look over my shoulder to think that one of my chickens somehow got into my house?

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

Ha!! Sometimes it’s my chickens in the video and sometimes it’s my nextdoor neighbors, but they are chatty ladies!!

[@tgardenchicken1780]

@@ParkrosePermaculture I LOVE hearing the girls every time. Hope all the babies are doing well.

[@JoLuffiroSauce]

couldn't agree with ou more. Any gardening is WORK. Nothing is really "Low effort" I've started my garden with "Back to eden" which works out where now i can adapt easily into permaculture. when i started it, it was ALOT of work! all the woodchips moving, all the planting, etc. till this day 4 years in, still a lot of work! ahhaha

[@davidschmidt270]

May not be well liked, but it's the truth..... isn't there a way where....for the most part we just pretty much set it up and let it do it's thing ???

[@shredmetalshred7395]

Think about the alternatives to Permaculture: modern industrial agriculture (Permaculture grows food not "landscaping"). Now imagine how much "effort" goes into the modern industrial agriculture complex. ... Permaculture is much much much lower effort.

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

But I would argue again that it is more effort in the beginning. And when folks jump in and they get in over their head and they expected it to be less work we are not setting them up for success. I absolutely agree in the long term Permaculture is lower effort than conventional methods, and it is regenerative in a way that other methods are not. But that is not the same thing as being “low effort”.

[@shredmetalshred7395]

@@ParkrosePermaculture I mean are we comparing the energies needed to plant your own apple tree vs the energies needed to get apples at a grocery store? As a civilization we started growing trees first, not grocery stores - indicating that growing your own food is a path of least resistance. It came about naturally, because it requires lower effort than conventional agriculture industry. Modern agriculture is just catering to the cities (people who cannot or will not grow their own food), as has been the case since the beginning of "history".

[@anhaicapitomaking8102]

Lower input maybe you mean. Lower effort. Nah.

[@shredmetalshred7395]

@@anhaicapitomaking8102 effort = "work" = energetic calories & joules ... you must take into account the "effort" for fossil fuel mining, transport, combustion engines, materials, etc...

[@anhaicapitomaking8102]

@@shredmetalshred7395 that's what I call input. The work you get. Effort is a much more nuanced concept. Much more similar to the effort in business practices of the people who have made the supermarket distribution system.

[@teffyvargas5916]

Maybe she meant low effort when is stablish , they live in a warmer climate so maybe for them is easiest you are not wrong but dont need to bash them neither

[@nicoleworkman3142]

Girl, start networking with your neighbors or something. Find how many days per week or something that you can let one or 2 people keep what they harvest so that you only have to harvest and preserve what you need.

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

Before the pandemic, the bulk of what I grew went to a local food bank and volunteers helped me pick twice a week. I’m happy to share harvests in the future, and know I can rely on Portland Fruit Tree Project to use extra fruit I can’t.

[@thusitha1986]

I respectfully disagree with you on this.

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

Do you care to elaborate?

[@formidableflora5951]

@@ParkrosePermaculture This video is dead on. Now heading back outside to put in more effort.

[@thusitha1986]

I think effort and work are two different things just like the autonomous garden’s comment bellow. You can still have high work with low affort and vice versa. In my opinion , it’s how you define effort. One person’s effort, work, skill, and experience may differ from another. I disagree with you on the definition.

[@thusitha1986]

I do love your videos. Thank you for making them and sharing your knowledge. Learned a lot from watching your videos :)

[@-whackd]

You're either weak or disabled if you think planting fruit trees is hard. And that's okay. You do you. I'm a man and get choppered into areas where I have to wear an avalanche pack to build a road on a mountainside for my work. Some people are more like Netflix people.

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

People have all kinds of limitations for all kinds of reasons. Everyone will find themselves not young or not able-bodied at some point in their lives.

[@TrishHalterman]

Big man over here! Hurry and see him!

[@peterellis4262]

You lost me totally with one phrase "I don't care about what other people say". How can you have an open mind and accept new information with that attitude? You can't. Can you actually practice permaculture without accepting new information and adapting? No, you can't. I won't be back.

[@ParkrosePermaculture]

You clearly missed my entire philosophy and ignored the whole body of work on this channel if you are going to flounce from one off-the-cuff remark taken entirely out of context. Best wishes on your permaculture journey!