Permaculture Exposed: Debunking Five Common Myths!

[@offgridcurtisstone]

Hey guys, Richard Perkins weighs in on my video here: Check it out! kzbin.info/www/bejne/mYSZpoKNnc99e5I

[@jdubeau007]

You are small farmer with a small mind. You said absolute nothing within first 3 minutes of your video. down vote!

[@keirenle]

Hi Curtis, I think you are right in that permaculture are not for industrial scale. I have a food forest and I AM more pragmatic than idealist in how I like to run the farm. I work with nature, it makes sense and easier on my back but I use pesticide to protect my young plants. People should be more self reliance though and if you have a back yard don't leave it unused

[@hernandogavancho7297]

Screw you Curtis i am susbscribing AND checking the bell! Thank you for sharing your thoughts on permaculture and industrial agriculture, we need more perspective on topics like these. Greetings!

[@coffeeplants2926]

One major point in this video was how the founders only used Permaculture on the small scale. At least in my research, some of the first videos and papers I studied were how Geoff Lawton and David Liu used permaculture on the industrial scale in order to feed an entire nation (Green Gold - Re Greening The Desert)

[@b_uppy]

Bet this comment shadowbanned but Mark Shepard has adapted permacultute to a much larger scale.

[@TinyHilltop]

I have always interpreted permaculture as a lifestyle that individuals can implement to help remove some burden from the large scale unsustainable systems; not just pertaining to agriculture specifically. Composting to reduce waste treatment and landfill burdens, using less water, electricity, plastic, fossil fuels, etc. With a long term goal of enough people getting involved we could need less large scale conventional farms and rely more upon local farms such as yours and JM's. Further reducing the usage of fossil fuels to not only grow the food but also to ship it far distances.

[@jordandelorme2341]

Tiny Hilltop I believe it was Rob at Verge Permaculture who said something to the effect of "permaculture is not any one particular thing. It is a design science or design system." I was also under the impression that one of the original intents of "permaculture" was as you said, people based. Or permanent culture. Not just the environment. I think that the "5 myths" are just poorly understood tools misapplied.

[@andreawisner7358]

Agreed. He is not arguing against permaculture. At best, he's arguing against misapplied techniques sometimes used in permaculture. In the bigger picture, he is arguing for industrial agriculture that is part of the western empire that is destroying the earth and killing people. If our economic system were not stealing land and resources from people all over the world, people could be using permaculture principles to grow food for themselves and their neighbors.

[@williewood7886]

@@andreawisner7358 who is stealing land and resources? I'm not aware of any countries at war who are gaining land and resourses? I only ask because you pay me to know these things and I'd like to be privy to your intelligence streams.

[@smb123211]

"Eating local" is a two-edged sword. Some think they are telling us something new when it's how it's always been done (particularly here in the South). The problem is that we want the incredible variety now available (that was not there when I was a kid). Our diet was boring and we lived on an orchard! Food that cannot be grown locally OR grows only one time a year must be imported. This means pineapples, mangoes, oranges, bananas, coffee, ocean fish..... One of the biggest offenders (and one never mentioned) is wine, I love Italian wines so should I buy from the nearby winery? The only reason we avoid mass production is industrial farming (I sold my farm last year). Green, backyard farms simply can't produce enough due to lack of knowledge, equipment, growing season and time. Farm work is hard and few want to devote the effort. China and India produce more food BUT they have 18% and 38% farmers (ours is 2%) and they import almost nothing. The average gardener can grow enough food for a family of four on about 40 acres although some YT videos say 50 or 75 acres. The US farmer, by far the most efficient in the world, can do so on 1 acre.

[@FPSBloodlust]

Correct, sustainable agriculture =\= permaculture but the two are somewhat intertwined

[@jplant1414]

Curious to know what his sources of information are. From what I've seen, permaculture is a diverse, dynamic philosophy, not a set of rule or paint-by-number solutions. I've never seen it as a "rule" that a food forest is a "set-it-and-forget-it" endeavor. I've never seen it as a "rule" that permaculture is meant to be lazy. I've never seen it as a "rule" that everything needs to be mulched, or that everything needs to be "swaled". And where is it written that permaculture cannot use tools like insect netting or fences or irrigation systems? Permaculture didn't get it wrong. There are no false "myths" here. Rather, this is about some people using certain techniques incorrectly. That's a vastly different thing.

[@ward26102]

Bingo!

[@shaunb8294]

Nicely articulated. I was scratching my head wondering how the hell "food forest" and "lazy gardening" or "wood chips" became synonyms for permaculture. There's also a presumption here that what are essentially gardening techniques are meant to "take on" conventional farming methods that I just don't get. People looking to make a back yard garden, a food forest or an aquaponics-based greenhouse for some percentage of their food aren't approaching this from the mindset of someone who's stitching together a half dozen or more quarter acre lots as a profitable ag business model. I like Curtis a lot, and have taken a fair amount of inspiration from his videos, but he seems to have a real bone to pick with permaculture practitioners and I wonder where that particular beef comes from.

[@Chickmamapalletfarm]

That is exactly what I was thinking too. Several of his points I was thinking... the first thing every permaculture person I have heard talk is “spend at least a year watching the space you want to plant and design for that”. This would allow for adjustment to any design that would benefit the space one lives in.

[@KompostLiebe]

It is a set of rules! Do u know who Bill Mollison or David Holmgren? Have u every read something about permaculture from the founders?

[@billwest7481]

I agree with the basic premise but even adding a "wall" of successive perennials, sunflower, and wildflowers near a vegetable garden benefits all. Organic practices will stabilize the insect population so only natural variation occurs and plants carry better immune qualities. The idea is to get away from the completely monoculture grass lawn.

[@edjeffectpermaculture2539]

I think the title should be 'What many in the permaculture movement are getting wrong', because good design is good design, and permaculture provides just that.. good design 'in context'. The issue is not with permaculture, but with people knowingly or unknowingly falling into bad designs. I love the way you put it all down respectfully though.

[@jessies6193]

And getting Patrick Whitefield's name wrong to boot.

[@brusso456]

permaculture was for individuals, families, small farms. there is no solution for big agriculture and no one ever said there was. big agriculture will soon die off. it is only held up by government support. there are over 90 million unemployed / under employed Americans, many of them should be small local farmers. why would anyone trust the food supple of this country to a handful of agri-corporations growing mono crops? that is stupid.

[@KompostLiebe]

Sure there is, there where even test and trials, and they said permaculture is supirior! They faked the Test, cause they just measured the central production, not the whole farm!

[@wobblybobengland]

More farmers, better paid farmers, less middle men, cooperatives, better soil ecology

[@prolibertate3499]

So which is it? Is permaculture the replacement for big agriculture or not? You seem to want it both ways brusso

[@justuslightworkers]

Permaculture didn't get anything wrong. It isn't intended for large-scale use to feed everyone else. Permaculture was intended to be able to feed yourself, your family, and possibly some locals, if you want. The problem is that people aren't connecting with the food they eat, they are relying on everyone else to do it for them.

[@youcanthandlethetruth6976]

Yea this guy is an idiot. He's talking about commercial farming. Food forests are easy to eat off of. Fruit trees alone, can feed you all year round.

[@Permaglueck]

not everybody wants a garden, wants to grow food. There must be doctors, artists, builders and teachers. So this concept of a permaculture garden for every household won't work. There MUST be agriculture. Farmers who produce food for all those other people, and children, disabled people and the elderly! So the question is: how will permaculture agriculture look like?

[@goatgal7884]

PermaGluck, you make a very good point.

[@TheProphetsWhisper]

permaculture also isn't only related to plant growing :D there are ways of producing fuel, energy and building materials that are considered a part of permaculture . the idea is that we have the power to create less centralized systems that benefit the destruction of ecosystems. there are ways of doing so in such a way that doesn't require so many unnatural elements in the mix. Key is community involvement in what feeds themselves and their family.

[@OakKnobFarm]

justuslightworkers: That's how I've always felt. Permaculture-style is perfect for small to mid-sized plots. Great for providing huge bounties for a single family, or maybe a family and friends, or someone selling at farmers markets, etc. It's a tough model for large-scale agriculture. And don't get me wrong: big-agra needs a MAJOR rebirth and MAJOR move towards sustainability, health, reducing pollution, reducing water usage... but the solution won't be the same type of permaculture I practice in my own yard.

[@dodsonarmsco]

What I have noticed over many years where I had a surplus and told people they could pick and have as much as they wanted for free. No one showed up they would only take the free food if I picked it and brought it to them. Gardening, farming, and perma-culture all have the same problem most people are to lazy to even pick free food when available.

[@axeldaxelMVM]

Kind of. Some people really are lazy (I can think of some people I know personally) but modern lifestyles are a problem too. I can't just go somewhere and pick food on short notice, who's going to watch my kids? My husband can't just go places whenever he wants, he works 5 days a week. Maybe if we lived with other relatives or knew our neighbors better, like people do in some other countries. I wish. But yeah, I know a lot of people really just don't care.

[@mio.giardino]

Yes. The same people who say there’s a food shortage tend to not have a garden & are oblivious to the thousands of acres of land not being farmed because of lack of farmers. I wish I had more land that I could grow more of my families food in a more feasible scale.

[@lamoabird]

dodsonarmsco You said it all! Exactly the same happen to us, we had cherries, pears, raspberries, grapes, lettuce, flowers... all you need to do is come and pick them yourself... Nobody showed... and, the they would say, ah you are so lucky to have this blah, blah, blah....Most people are so lazy and self entitled...

[@larrysbrain1627]

Axel Daxel I agree with you.

[@lamoabird]

HALF MT Many times we have heard that. Most people we know only have enough food to last a few days in their homes...

[@ChrisWasha]

Curtis’ Foundation of criticism: “Permaculture doesn’t apply to large scale farming. If you’re going to criticize large scale commercial agriculture, then offer a solution…” The reason that large scale Ag has been criticized is because of the damage it has and continues to do today. Think of it as smoking. It’s really not good for you, and we criticize it. But if you want to be healthy, there is no medium or compromise with smoking, you just gotta quit. It may take time to do so, but the benefits of quitting outweigh the longterm health effects. Permaculture was not meant to be a replacement for large scale Ag, it was meant to be a bridge (the nicotine patch if you will) to weaning off large scale Ag. Our industries grew too fast and too large, and so now we are faced with the question of, how do we continue to produce the amount of food needed for the population, but do so in a just manner that is healthy for us and the planet? Insert Permaculture principles and practices. You can apply it to almost anything you do in life, which is the true gift of permaculture. Too many people think of Permaculture as an agricultural system and look at the techniques and technology being applied, and whether those are right or wrong in the application, when that’s not the correct way to look at it. Just like you experiment on your farm, and help other farms to “lean out” and cut costs, Permaculture is set of principles that can guide people along that path. Like some comments I see down below about size of farms; the application of permaculture is truly scalable. We need to not look at one technique and call it wrong. Like you kept stating, it’s Context. Let me comment on your 5 myths to see if I can further examine and explain: 1. The Myth of the Self Sustaining Garden, and forest gardening. * If you were to look at most permaculture “farms” they don’t apply food forest practices to the areas of larger food production or kitchen gardens. So your overall thinking of design and application is not entirely correct in thinking that food forest can’t be applied to large farms. Food forests are a way of working with the outer zone in your design so that you can develop long term, low input food production that requires little to no effort. Could a large farm do this? Probably not, but they could look at their zones and maybe apply it for a long term solution to maybe feed their workers on a day to day basis? You have to look at the whole system, not just the application for one area * At 4:44 you say “food production systems that are so reliable and stable that it allows other people to be specialized in other things.” * Do you honestly think large scale production is stable and reliable? Look at how easily they can be destroyed by one bug or fungus without the heavy use chemicals. Look at how it takes large amounts of inputs (fuel - which is a limited resource), synthetic fertilizers that hurt the microbiome of the soil. Your thinking of our “reliable” these systems are is wrong, but I’m sorry. You should read Anti-Fragile by Nassim Nicholas Taleb to understands systems. * Then you go on to say “hunter gatherer…tribe…etc. And how everybody is involved in the food production…”. Well, yeah, that’s how it used to be until we mechanized everything and made food cheap and poisonous through our efforts to “feed the world.” Everyone in those tribes did have a specialized job, in fact. Large Ag took those jobs away, and now we’re stuck flipping burgers and “dedicating our lives” to enrich others at the top in order to feed ourselves. Read Ishmael if you haven’t and understand the Taker and Leaver mentality of this era. Hunter-gathers were not horticulturalists, they were hunter gathers. They spent most of their day being leisure and being a part of a community. When food was needed, they used their intelligent minds and education to sort through the vast repository of nature in order to create food and medicine. We have been incapacitated by our choices limited to our phones and what’s available in the grocery aisle. But I’m digressing…. * “You can’t really mechanize things though. Maybe we’ll get to a point where robots are doing all of the work…the ultimate solution.” This sounds like lazy farming to me, and you’re pushing the idea continuing the system of large scale mechanized agriculture. Curtis, we don’t need to feed the world. We need to teach the world how to feed itself so that we can get off of the lazy train of food production and get back to taking control of our health and wellness. Growing food is not about about production. We don’t need more calories since we throw 50% away anyways. We need more quality. And quality comes from craftsmanship, not counterfeit. 2. “The Lazy Gardener Myth” * Well, you’re talking about farming, which does take a lot of work and inputs and supplies and man hours. Permaculture “Gardening” is not farming, like you stated. So really this is not a myth, you’ve just applied the myth to farming, and this is out of context. However, the idea, practices, and principles in Permaculture, over time is about putting in a large amount of inputs and resources that will in effect create more “time” down down the road for “leisure” or other projects, while being a good steward to the land. This is not a quick fix application. And if you continue with the same large agricultural practices, then yes, you’ll have to keep “maintaining and working” as you say in order to be productive. But if you think outside of the box, which a lot of small farms are now doing, you can create large yields and minimize weeding, and whatever else. Get creative, don’t bastardize leisure time. Not everyone needs to feel like they need to put in 8 or 14 hours of work a day to be human. In fact, I think the opposite. The crazy amount of hours we’re required to work everyday is DE-humanizing us and killing our creativity. Check your “confirmation-bias” on this one too.

[@ChrisWasha]

3. “Everything Should be Mulched” * Again, application. You refer to the carrot beds as not being a good area for mulching, but if you look at the carrots themselves, they are so thick, they don’t need mulch (and you do make that small comment). And then you talk about mulching and having to move the mulch in the spring to warm up the beds, well, yeah, that’s called gardening or small scale farming. It takes work. But if you think logistically, it doesn’t have to be. For large scale Ag, no, mulch probably won’t work, because they haven’t invented a robot or machine yet to do the job. But they don’t need to, they can just spray and kill everything an leave a residue of chemicals for us to ingest. * Mulching is a tool, an application to help suppress weeds and retain moisture. Should it be used on everything? No, but when you’re farming a small plot by yourself and don’t have a lot of water rights, or hands to pick weeds, then mulching is quite practical. Also, if you look at nature, it is constantly mulching the grounds by fallen leaves, twigs, branches, etc. Permaculture is applying the genius of nature into gardening or farming methods. It also adds organic material and protection layer for those soil microbes that we tend to kill through spraying. In the beginning, mulch is a great tool for suppressing weeds so you can control the growth of what you do want in a perennial growth area (whether large scale or small). Over time, you won’t need to mulch because you’ll have a dense area of crops that you can harvest from on a consistent basis. * And you point to the black plastic tarp as a “practical” way of covering your beds. Which I find to be unpractical. 1. You limit the amount of moisture being given to the land. 2. You’re relying on the petroleum industry to mine, process, and create that tarp for you. 3. Plastics are now being found to have degrading effects on our hormones, especially in women. 4. You have to “Peel” the plastic off. Sure, might take a little more time to rake off the mulch, but your mulch created a breathable blanket over the winter for microbes and worms to get fresh water, oxygen, natural sunlight, etc. etc. You can also leave that mulch in your walking paths to suppress weeds in those areas. And over time, when you walk on it, it breaks down and be easily pushed back to mulch the bed. Which then adds compost. Process of Practicality is how I look at it. Think of ways to make things easier. You have to compost your scraps right? Throw the scraps in your walkways and mulch them in the summer time. In the fall you’ll have compost ready to rake over the beds. Yes, you can even put a breathable landscape tarp over the top to keep things warm and cozy underneath. * You say “It’s impossible to do crops like this in thick mulched beds.” Chris, nothing’s impossible, it only takes longer. Also, I’ve seen heavily mulched carrot beds that grow carrots 3 or 4 times the size of commercially grown ones. So again, quality over quantity. Cheap and fast over slow and delicious? Your choice and your application. 4. “Everything Should be Swaled” * Context and Application. Permaculture always asks the question, is it “Appropriate Technology?” Swaling is a technology to capture water. In your example you talk about the flat farm area that doesn’t need to be swaled, but then you said that they let the water run all the way the end and the capture in an area, which to me, sounds like a swale or some sort of water catchment. So I would agree with you on not having to create swales everywhere. But if you’re living on a piece of land that is sloped (like Mark Shepherd in Wisconsin), you can create a productive small scale farm using swales. * So I wouldn’t label this as a myth. It’s an application issue. Farmers who think they should swale everything obviously didn’t let Permaculture principles sink in too deeply. They probably took a design course or saw something on KZbin and thought that was the answer. 5. You talk about diversity and how it’s beneficial, but then you backup and say how it’s not all that great and that you’re going to have “elements of monoculture on every farm.” First off, when you’re describing the farm and how there are 4 beds of a carrots and other stuff, that is not monoculture. That is a diverse market farm with different crops. Monoculture is one giant piece of land all growing one crop, that’s it. And yes, there are going to be “pests” in any farm or garden, but you just need to learn how to deal with them and to get nature to work with you. Are they attracting the right birds? Do they have the right pollinators bringing in assassins and predators? You can’t just say, “They have pests - so therefore, you’ll always have to use netting.” Dude, be open-minded. Yeah, you might have to do a little organic spraying here and there to nail an infestation of aphids. But the aphids are telling me that something is missing in the plants, which in turn something is missing in the soil. Work from the bottom up, not the top down. * You also keep stating that “Agriculture does not exist in nature.” I have to disagree. If you actually look and study nature, it is constantly farming itself. Squirrels plant nuts that turn into trees, vines crawl up trees like a trellis, ground cover mulches everything and keeps the soil from drying out, animals drop their feces that help bring nutrient to the soil. Just look at the way nature works to grow everything. Yeah, it’s not in rows and lines. That is the human element of control into the landscape for it to be mechanized. And look at how well that has done for our lands and health. It’s time to look at nature as a supreme design. It’s been around a hell of a lot longer than we have and knows how to operate and grow things efficiently. Can we drive through a forest with a tractor to harvest the crops? No, but you can gather your neighbors and go for a healthy walk to collect everything, sell it at the market, then throw a party and drink a few home-brews that you made from all of the organic goodness you grew on the land. Did you feed the world doing it? No, but if you show one of your neighbors and friends how much fun the “work” can be, and how self sufficient they can be so that one day they can quit their degrading 9 to 5 job at McDonalds, then they might catch the bug and do it themselves, which takes one more GMO grown apple off the shelf each and every day. I like your videos Chris, but this one I had to comment on because your attacking principles of application and applying a wrong vs right point of view, when there is no wrong or right. There is only appropriate and not appropriate at the time of application. And what you describe as “Myths”, are not myths, but they are technologies that have been incorrectly applied by people who are experimenting and expecting these solutions to be the one-size-fits-all answer. When what they need to do is take an actual design course, go see a number of farms that apply permaculture methods, observe and interact with their land for quite some time, and then determine what the right application is. Thank you for your videos, I enjoy watching your urban farming methods, but this one I had to comment on because I found a lot of contradictions in your statements, and the title was a little bit misleading. Keep up the good work.

[@yungxama1606]

@@ChrisWasha wauw that was refreshing to read. Thank you for the effort of creating this extended comment! One way or the other contemporary agriculture is doomed, it just doesnt work in the long terms and its just because of how we have structured our societies since the industrial revolution which is we only want to grow grow GROW! It cannot be sustained and like you mentioned somewhere it also in a sense dehumanises us. Sure work is good for us but not slaving 40+ hours a week. Work to live, not the other way around. Therefor to get us in check again we need to start taking steps back and go back to square one with the basic and Permaculture can help greatly in that. Start producing for yourself, if everyone starts doing that we will create food abundance and restore earth AND ourselfs to its natural state again. Really hoping with this pandemic going on that people start realizing how fragile our capitalist systems are and if they are out we are pretty much lost.

[@kiki29073]

@@yungxama1606 I agree amd ehsts wrong with people going backwards some instead of forward? What good has people going forward constantly done for us or the planet?

[@neilaleksandrov2655]

This should be the top comment. With your response you have captured many thought I have been thinking over the last decade as well. Really love this. Also Love: "Get creative, don’t bastardize leisure time."

[@coursecorrection870]

@@ChrisWasha can we have some videos of your farm?

[@ncooty]

I appreciate the spirit of this video and the value of Curtis's insights. However, I think this video treats "things some people say" as purported principles of permaculture. E.g., Holmgren, Mollison, Lawton, et al. have written fairly clearly that permaculture is about applying principles in contextually appropriate ways to achieve benefits for land users, the broader community, and the planet. It's not a rote to-do list as this video seems to suggest. Similarly, I find it somewhat odd for Curtis to suggest (see his response to "myth" 1) that production is more important than sustainability. Surely sustainability subsumes production, which itself is a separate factor from demand, waste, and other elements in the food system. To me, it seems backward to argue that sustainability must meet production demands rather than that the entire food system must be sustainable. Overall, these insights from Curtis might be valuable counterpoints to specific claims, but I don't think those claims represent permaculture or that Curtis has addressed the difficult questions he raised. In my opinion, the title is closer to click-bait than fact.

[@ashleysovilla2037]

Agreed!

[@somethingbeautiful2212]

Yes! I fully agree 🌱

[@myproxybloviator8467]

That may be true, bu the comments on the no work farmer turns farm over to nature seems accurate as does the mulching issue Maybe i am mistaken but I think you might thinks he is much more critical than he is

[@Magickfae]

100%

[@makingitthrough190]

He must have seen folk taking the principles of permaculture and applying them as “rules” out of context. It is human nature for some of us to latch onto an ideal and try to make it fit circumstances it was never intended to address. For example a mother may plan for a natural childbirth but is better prepared if she plans for any eventuality.

[@ienekevanhouten4559]

Hold it. I am looking forward to hearing the criticism, but must disagree off the bat with the notion that one cannot criticize a system without offering a solution. Good answers start with asking the right questions.

[@ward26102]

Exactly. That's where this video fails.

[@offgridcurtisstone]

Fails? 15k views so far. Doesn't look like failure from up here. ;)

[@npgjnrcc4707]

Urban Farmer Curtis Stone fails in logic.... if you are searching views YAY you win the internet! lmao .a video about bubbles of gum reaches millions.... fails DUE to INACCURATE assumptions .. one cannot say something cannot be done because CURTIS HAS never seen it lol!! wrong

[@ward26102]

If all you are concerned about is number of views, then good for you. You could call this video a great success. But anyone can create a controversial video that gets a lot of views. Perhaps I was mistaken when I thought you were more about education and the thorough exploration of methods and alternatives. As Charlie said, the logic in your video fails. When you call a practice or principle a failure or "wrong" because it was applied incorrectly, that's not logical. The problem there in the application of the principles, not in the principles themselves. A reason for the poor outcomes is lack of education or understanding. I've commented on this video multiple times about how swales, mulch and rainwater capturing work well for me in the desert and save money. That's not a fail! Quite a number of commenters have stated that the principles of permaculture do not REQUIRE swales, mulch, or anything else. Principles must be applied after good analysis and design. I firmly believe that those of us who understand permaculture design need to educate others. You admitted you use some permaculture principles yourself, the ones that work for you in context. Even as a farmer focused on profit you have seen the value in some of the principles. Context is exactly the point, which you said several times in the video but contradict that when referring to "what permaculture got wrong." Permaculture didn't get anything wrong. The people implementing it did, because they don't understand what they are doing. Teach people the right way, rather than tossing the baby out with the bathwater and saying the system results in failures.

[@juanbaca6565]

Urban Farmer Curtis Stone EGO!!!??!! UP HERE? You better or live in the clouds or sumthin? You a bitch to KZbin views

[@williamscarla01]

We get 38 inches of annual precip, and prior to swales, our 1/2 acre garden wouldn't dry out and warm up until May in zone 8b. Swales moved our sowing up 6 weeks. Again, as you said, context. But permaculture isn't meant to fit into a large scale agricultural context. You're attempting to commodify its small scale concepts into a capitalist, profit-based structure. Naturally that will fail. Permaculture strives to maximize diversity, so the yields of particular crops are naturally smaller, while net production across crop species make up the difference and reduce risk of individual crop loss. Don't try to force permaculture into the poorly designed, unsustainable "agriculture" box. It never claimed to want to emulate agriculture. In fact, permaculture actively rejects agriculture as a sure-fire recipe for soil erosion and desertification with 12,000 years of examples.

[@ward26102]

You're using swales the opposite way I use them in the desert, but damn if it's not working for both of us!

[@dustman96]

Well said.

[@xyzsame4081]

@@ward26102 Actually no, swales are used to MODERATE water (too little in arid land followed by torrentialand infrequent rains). And even regions with plenty of rain can experience draugths - and the gardeners or farmers are ill prepared if such a hot summer hits them. (Sweden, Siberia had wildfires. Central Europe, Scotland ! experienced draughts). And I think everywhere where they use some ground water for the population and farming there is a trend of falling water tables. Even in regions that should have it easy to fill the water table to the brim. btw I do not get why Curtis says the soil will be wet in spring do they have impermeable underground ? Else the srping rains should infiltrate and recharge the groundwater. They seem to catch it in ponds.

[@Ivan-ud1gr]

"permaculture isn't meant to fit into a large scale agricultural context." With respect, "Says who?"

[@DesertRat1997]

@@Ivan-ud1grI think they mean that it doesn't fit well into retail production. Stores want produce in specific amounts and out of season. Of course a family or community could do large scale permaculture to feed themselves and some surplus for local market.

[@SLORTA5]

Permaculture is about self-sufficiency. You and your method of "farming" has been locked into the system of "economics". Permaculture is not and never should be about "money".

[@npgjnrcc4707]

SLORTA5 exactly! People need to GROW THE FOODS THEY EAT!

[@bobmathieson987]

Permaculture is not, never was, never will be about self-sufficiency. It has a backbone of relationship with communities and being energy and cost-effective. Sustainability comes from good design and human cooperation toward sharing our environments. Not Self Sufficiency which is not energy efficient and Selfish.

[@MagnumPI4]

Try and get 10,000 city people to grow their own food, spend less time at their jobs to farm, and wipe their asses with leaves or whatever other hippy shit you want them to do... Not gonna happen.

[@pitbullman77]

exactly these comments are cracking me up @@MagnumPI4

[@stephencarlsbad]

Society is all about economics. You can not escape it. Permaculture is highly inefficient in an economy compared to traditional methods of large-scale Ag farms. If everyone was forced to use permaculture, which direction do you think society would go in. Forward or backward? Yeah, backward... Large-scale Permaculture is for the deluded, utopian-minded or the completely reclusive that dislike humanity. Its a proven failure on a large scale and the data bares that out.

[@IgnatSkoryh]

Oh that’s a misunderstanding of permaculture. Permaculture explains a lot of things about soil, water, landscape etc. And you choose how to apply that knowledge. Permaculture doesn’t force you to grow forest gardens. You chose to grow early succession plants. Permaculture explains that you need less fungi in your soil, less mulch etc for these plants. That’s how you perfectly doing it. Some others grow walnut trees and permaculture helps them as well. Don’t blame permaculture, but people’s misunderstanding and misuse of it (principles taken out of context)!

[@KompostLiebe]

Seems like u dont know what it is and make it what u want it to be.

[@teachatami45]

Ignat Skoryh 😉💯

[@prolibertate3499]

@@KompostLiebe Yep, the goal posts keep moving. If the permaculture advocates think their practice should replace big ag then they to have an answer for how we can have a division of labor, because it seems that like 90% of people would need to be farmers given their model.

[@Christodophilus]

There is no wrong permaculture design element. Just the wrong application. If you want to see large scale agriculture, work in unison with correct permaculture design, look at Mark Shepard's work. Agroforestry and Silviculture, are recognised large scale, agricultural producers. The difference is, they incorporate annual crops within their perennial (forestry) systems. They also sell livestock products and avoid purchasing soil amendments, because they utilise any waste after harvest. Which ultimately, reduces their bottom line. Will they provide all the food in the world? Hardly. But neither does any one farm provide all the food in the world, either. So it's a myth that specialisation, is the game changer.

[@Youngonce01]

Excellent comment!!!!!! Very true.

[@Youngonce01]

This mentality keeps people from doing anything. Farms of 10 to 250 acres, until the 1980's, used to feed the world. They still can and do. Stop the dependency on Agri-business. They are not your friends.

[@RobinDemey]

Steve Slade, it's not because in US or Australia, large scale is 100's of acres, it's all over the world like that. In Europa, most farms are smaller then 100 acres. And this is large scale in my opinion.

[@Youngonce01]

Thus you proved my point.

[@Christodophilus]

Steve I can see where you're coming from, but Mark Shepard's operation, isn't just one farm. He's educating other farmers how to convert over, because they're tired of sending their profits to banks and science laboraties, in order to get anything to grow on their land. Combined, agroforestry is not small scale, and the total net of natural collateral, could not be manufactured in a laboratory, and be ready available. We'd have more chance, deriving a return through urban conurbation, under Shepard's model, if anything happened to the supply of oil. Than we'd get anything to grow, but weeds, on the land of large scale Ag. Because there is still natural collateral in the soils of urban conurbation. More vegetative diversity and more micro-climates to take advantage of, as well. The game changer, for our survival, has always been through building natural collateral back into the landscape. What actually fed the gazelle, our ancestors stole from the hyenas, in the first place? It wasn't our enormous brains or our capacity to specialse. Natural collateral, is the game changer.

[@YouCantEatTheGrass]

My favorite permaculture myth is that if you buy a Permaculture Design Course, then you can make lots of money selling other people PDC's. By the way, make sure to sign up for my permaculture design course to get all the hot tips, like make sure to put your herb spiral in zone 1

[@offgridcurtisstone]

Oh my god, that’s the best one!

[@nicolasbertin8552]

Well the idea is that if everyone has a food garden, you won't need large scale agriculture anymore. But if you're disappointed by food forests, try to look into agroforestry. It's regular agriculture, but with rows of trees. They do it in France, where you can plant chestnut trees with wheat for example. The trees help protect against wind and soil erosion, they help with drainage and soil health, the wheat grows in early spring when the chestnut trees have no leaves yet, so it's beneficial both ways. It has proven to give better yield, and now the EU finances farmers who do this. It doesn't have to be organic farming. At the moment what scares me the most is the massive insect, amphibians, small mammals and bird extinction in Europe.There are 3 main causes : for birds and insect it's the same, it's large scale agriculture. Pesticides and fields with just one crop (especially corn) have wiped out 80% of the insects in the last 30 years, and had the same effect on birds. If you look at organic crop fields, you have 5 times more insects and birds. For amphibians and small mammals the issue is light pollution and noise. IE urbanisation. For frogs for example, light and noise stresses them and destroys males' hormone production. Of course the lack of ponds and swamps, wiped out for cities and crops, didn't help either. It's an extinction that can happen in a 10 year timeframe, it's a nightmare. Yes we eat more organic food, yes there are urban gardeners, but it's still not enough. Government need to implement legislations, force farmers to plant other stuff and trees and keep the ponds. They need to finance this, because otherwise the financial losses due to an extinction of birds and insects will be catastrophic.

[@qwipperty]

That's the problem. No big corporate farms and certain rich folks lose their wealth. So they're ramping up the propaganda against all of the reasonable alternatives.

[@alana8088]

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[@emmavik-fredriksson640]

This video is so strange! As we would say in Sweden, you are mixing Apple with pears. Yes you are right in some ways, but also got it all wrong. I mean you cant blame permaculture for not giving you a perfect solution for big farm agriculture, its not what its about! And then say "lazy gardening" isnt working for big ag, is like, whaat. Of course not. Its lazy GARDENING not lazy big ag. And if people put in swales that does not work, its because they did it wrong (or dont need it) not that swales are a bad thing. To sum it up, you are talking about bad implementation of permaculture.

[@malcolm72388]

Thank you, this is exactly what I was thinking when watching the video. Apples to pears!

[@sarahloy2699]

Emma Vik-fredriksson exactly my thinking. Thanks for this response.

[@carolv8450]

Could be he is just click-baiting us.

[@ward26102]

Emma Vik-fredriksson We say apples and oranges. :-) Either way, that is the point exactly.

[@petternapstad9349]

You didn't pay attention to what he actually says in the video. He says permaculture is great for the purpose you are talking about. Obviously he makes this video because some people believe it can be implemented on bigger farms.

[@allencallender2205]

As I understand it, Permaculture is supposed to be used as needed, and for smaller scaled operations. It does not all work for large scale agriculture. Pick and choose the parts that work to solve a problem for you and your operation and don't use everything if it doesn't fit. Swales help with a specific problem that you do not have, so do not use them. Permaculture is only used when it makes a problem better.

[@squirefergus]

Permaculture's goal is not to tinker with large-scale industrial agriculture. Permaculture's goal is to replace the old and currently collapsing agricultural system completely. Remember "a revolution disguised as gardening." Scale Is a big part of the problem. The use of inappropriate scale and inappropriate systems is the reason permacultural techniques are not working here. Large scale industrial farming has only been around since the 1930's - that is only 90 or so years and yet humans fed themselves more abundantly and with better quality food for millennia.

[@offgridcurtisstone]

I don't think permaculture can have a goal, it's not a human. A lot of these comments are making me see the bigger problem in the permaculture scene today. It's turned into dogma, kind of like a game of telephone.

[@rogerramjet1038]

The biggest problem with all of Curtis's arguments is that he is convinced that if he cant do something, then it cant be done. He is never going to be able to "advance" until he gets his ego under control. On top of that, he neglects to mention the biggest issue with permaculture - the fact that it relies on exploitation of labour. Now, can anyone guess why Curtis would not mention (or perhaps even grasp) this concept?

[@DowntoEarthThinkingcom]

Exploitation of labor, now you are getting close to the underlying sham of Lawton and many others with their fake certificates of nothing ! I am always amused by the greater fools that abound and are easily spoon fed junk.

[@calinradulescupro8390]

Hi Curtis, I would suggest you read the Permaculture Designer's Manual - especially Chapter 4 - Pattern Understanding, and especially 4.13. Dimensions and Potentials to 4.17. Orders of Magnitude in branches.

[@heronlyfriend]

I thought permaculture was so free, letting things flow with nature, letting things work for you if they can. Nobody's forcing you to mulch everything or dig swales for no reason lol. There's no rules here. Talk about confirmation bias. Of course permaculture works in the right setting, its using what you have, for you. I was never trying to supply a restaurant with annuals...

[@chelinfusco6403]

That is correct. It is regenerative agricultural practice, where the soil is not depleted but nourished according to the "climate & location". There is no 'one' method fits all in agriculture of any form. Permaculture is wonderful. That it could be done in a large scale will need to be seen, but, why try? That is not the point. Large scale farming is ruining the bio-organisms that feed the soil in order to produce. There is so much energy and time wasted in being angry over failures. He needs to learn from them, accept them and move on.

[@ramnereds]

I agree but I think you are missing the biggest problem - we break the nitrogen cycle when we remove the produce without returning the human waste as fertilizer. Then we have to add nitrogen and even if it is manure from a chicken farm for example the chickens have probably eaten maize or similar that was grown with nitrogen added in a conventional way. Would be great to see you and Richard Perkins discuss this! This is more of a "macro scale" discussion and I really appreciate what you are doing. We produce right now millions of tons of animal waste that is often seen as a problem, not a resource. Let us begin there.

[@marshwetland3808]

Humanure Handbook.

[@offgridcurtisstone]

That was the first permaculture book I read when I was getting into all of this 10 years ago.

[@bitrudder3792]

A lot of that manure has been tainted by antibiotics and other drugs......

[@gonicjon]

most honest, practical and real permaculture/homesteading video out there to help people understand what they are up against

[@thebobthebobanite6287]

Read the blog and reading comments here, there’s a simple misconception that many permies, including myself at one point, have. Economics are an expression of value and sustainability. The only reason big ag continues to make money is because of the externalized costs. Once the costs can no longer be externalized, that model will no longer be economical. The reason why permaculture as a food production method has not yet taken over, is because it isn’t efficient. It’s ecologically sustainable, but man hours to calories it’s well below market gardening methods. Those who say it’s not about making money but feeding your family, I agree. But I want to feed my family with the least effort and cost possible. So standard permaculture mandala gardens, food forests, swales and hugel beds aren’t going to do that for me here in the north. Saying all that, I still consider myself a permaculturalist. But it’s not a method or ideology, it’s a mindset and philosophical framework for me. Raised beds are permaculture, why? Because they are permanent. No till is permaculture, intensive annual growing is permaculture as it requires less land and leaves more for natural ecosystems. Give up ideology, and focus on principles. Do what works. I garden in the middle of a forest with large areas dedicated to flowers, comfrey, herbs and insectary plants. It makes a huge difference, but it’s not salvation. And certain pests are still a huge problem. Context is everything, don’t hold to ideology, experiment, learn, and do what works that can be accomplished easily with the resources you have available. Improve, refine, and enjoy abundance.

[@russruss2446]

Nothing worse than some dude lecturing about the scientific method. Half-smart people love to do this ad-hominum stuff. Curtis Stone seems to favor traditional agriculture, with some ecological principles applied if convenient. Sure, plastic tarps are more convenient. So are petrochemicals and pesticides, which is the problem permaculture tries to address.

[@juanbaca6565]

Russ Russ paper mulch is great stuff fuck curtis Bless up Russ

[@DowntoEarthThinkingcom]

The only thing worse is some dude lecturing about the fraud of permaculture ! This guy is pointing out a middle ground that makes sense and he is not selling a fake certificate of stupidity. Try to grasp that simple concept. It is a tip off.

[@stephencarlsbad]

Stupid comment. You're basically saying that you can't be economical and organic or eco-conscious at the same time. Just because you use a black plastic tarp doesn't mean that you're then obligated to sow GMO seeds in your garden as well. Wake up genius. Permaculture is only good for the hobbyist. It's highly inefficient when compared to the demands of large-scale ag. You will never be able to feed a country on a system as unpredictable, inefficient, and inconsistent as permaculture. And that's the point he was trying to make, "backyard farmer..."

[@AslansMane88]

Ad hominem, Ignoramus cum laude.

[@yusukeurameshi6620]

@@AslansMane88 lol cum

[@1caramarie]

What? Who says no pruning or managing? Pruning is one of the basics of permaculture. Hint: Real forest, are pruned by nature. Leaves fall, lighting strikes and fires happen. Trees fall, leaves fall and insects do their thing. In permaculture what is known as chop and drop IS pruning and you can bet that if there is a plant that is becoming invasive you do something about it. What is wrong is the "experts" that say invasive is no problem and even encourage invasive plants and trees. (Try a couple of locust trees and you end up removing them for decades even if the parent trees were chopped down years earlier. My neighbor's, I not stupid enough to plant one.) Most people are not crazy enough to encourage that. Comfrey is meant to be chopped down unless you are trying to feed bees and other insects, then you don't let it go to seed. It's called LOGIC. Plantations in tropical area, are basically permaculture systems and they feed plenty of people, unless they are razed to plant for palm oil or heart of palm but that would fall under commercial farm. Bill Mollison? I grant you that, BUT he was from Australia, 35% of that continent receives so little rain it is effectively desert, so some of the things he recommended do NOT apply to areas that are not basically deserts. But if you are into permaculture, you have to take that into account. Same as you take into account that the temperature range in Australia falls mostly between 86 °F (30 °C) during summer and 59 °F (15 °C) in winter, especially when you live in a climate with a wider range of temperatures that in winter can fall to -47 F (like where I live). There are two extremes; people who accept everything they read about permaculture, to apply everywhere and those think that there is a need to poison the land and raze everything, even remotely natural such as anything food for bees, butterflies and beneficial insect, among others, to claim that's the only way you can feed the planet. Any thing extreme is wrong and people can be fed without destroying everything and as is claiming things that are not accurate, even remotely. Yeah! An "expert" of a whole 4 years! My son in law, father's died and now the 4,000 acre farm is in the hands of the children, especially my son in law and one of his sisters. Guess what commercial farm is now transitioning to organic and planting trees around the perimeters. Just yesterday I gave my daughter three small cherry trees from my 1/3 acre yard that is now a small permaculture forest and has been providing them with fruits and vegetable his father did not deem necessary, because they got in the way. They grew on their own from seeds dropped by birds who eat the cherries and complain when I am picking any. By the way, the guy died of a leukemia that has been linked to a commercial farm chemical. I did not continue pass point 2, because as I said "an expert of a whole 4 years". I'm 71. Been at it before the word permaculture was invented. Before it was called, being as self-sufficient as possible, while feeding people. Not a fan of Mollison, since it does not apply here. More of a fan of Geoff Lawton, since he is helping green deserts. We feed the Mississippi from here, but I do appreciate people trying to save poor people in desert, half way around the planet.

[@dontsubscribeme9547]

Pruning done by herbivores in nature

[@caspermca233]

Love your work Curtis! Permaculture is: (by David Holmgren) Consciously designed landscapes which mimic the patterns and relationships found in nature, while yielding an abundance of food, fibre and energy for provision of local needs. People, their buildings and the ways in which they organise themselves are central to permaculture. Thus the permaculture vision of permanent or sustainable agriculture has evolved to one of permanent or sustainable culture. Permaculture is a “design system based on ecological principles” which provides the organising framework for implementing the above vision. In this more limited, but important sense it draws together the diverse skills and ways of living which need to be rediscovered and developed to empower us to move from being dependent consumers to becoming responsible producers. In this sense, permaculture is not the landscape, or even the skills of organic gardening, sustainable farming, energy efficient building or eco-village development as such, but can be used to design, establish, manage and improve these and all other efforts made by individuals, households and communities towards a sustainable future.

[@offgridcurtisstone]

Holmgren is my favourite permaculture writer. Pathways and Principles is a great book. I think I’m in his new book too.

[@juanbaca6565]

Urban Farmer Curtis Stone haha your ego is fucking outt control read the comment a few more times maybe you will understand

[@breadbread4226]

About a solution being applicable to the context: if the context is fundamentally broken, the solution kinda has to come from the outside and fundamentally change it. It is a topic of contentious debate if industrial agriculture is fundamentally broken, but if it is, a solution can not be applied to it that keeps it around.

[@mikeygee4564]

A swale is a solution to a problem. Who says they are a requirement?

[@verteup]

Jeanmarie Todd a pond or Swale will do fuck all to stop erosion. Only some sort of ground cover can do that. Swales are designed for places that get little rain fall.

[@verteup]

VICtorian071 I know exactly what a Swale is. Swales do absolutely nothing for erosion.

[@ward26102]

verteup Apparently you have never seen swales used correctly, because your statement about them not being able to stop erosion is flat wrong.

[@verteup]

Laura Ward it's negligible at best and downright useless at worst for erosion. Unless you build a Swale on every contour for the entire length of every contour.

[@Christodophilus]

verteup, if swales didn't stop soil erosion on a slope, why does nature build them naturally, through accumulated detritus on a slope? Everything washes downhill with water, tree trunks, branches, leaves. At some point the detritus falls into a ditch, hits a rock or gully, where it stays permanently. Whenever water comes by again, it drops silt behind the detritus - building a natural step/swale on the slope. Precisely, on contour.

[@iancooketapia]

Thanks for making this video. I am a year into my home garden journey and still learning and making mistakes and it is good for me to look at the other side of the discussion. All the best.

[@CHICKENRELIGIONCOM]

Permaculture and Farms are two different ideas,,, Permaculture is for a small group of people to exist off of the land ,, Farms are made to feed cities of people and all the corporate interest that are behind it, your farm Curtis would be in the middle of those 2 ideas. . Thanks I enjoy your videos

[@dannyholcomb2967]

CHICKENRELIGION.COM ditto

[@nonyobussiness3440]

Nothing wrong with corporations we wouldn’t have cars, retirement without them

[@johnbonner922]

Non yobussiness - We wouldn't have pollution, negative environmental impact, unnatural genetic modifications without them as well... There are better ways and that seems to be what Mr. Stone is talking about. The idea that there are only a set way to do things is flawed when it is taken out of context. Blessings friend, have a great day. :o)

[@great0789]

I did hear Geoff Lawton talking about the massive runoff pollution solution a while back. He was talking about building massive water runoff catchment areas along the Mississippi and Chesapeake bay and such to catch everything and build a bio containment/conversion area to clean the water before it inters these highly damaged areas. He believes it would solve the dead zones in the Gulf Of Mexico and the Chesapeake Bay. I bet there are solutions out there. We just have to see them.

[@nonyobussiness3440]

John Bonner we’ve been polluting before corporations. You’re being juvenile. What are you talking about. Seems to be your putting words in my mouth

[@tammybuckley2563]

I watched this video to see what false things someone might say about Permaculture. I stand corrected. You are a practical and well informed farmer. Keep up the good work! Unbiased information is so rare these days!

[@npgjnrcc4707]

the problem is with your statements is ... a home garden , if everybody had one, wouldn't have to grow tons of food. therefore, permaculture food forest would be primo

[@prolibertate3499]

If everyone was permaculturing who would make your air conditioner unit? Or your cell phone? That's the whole point, monoculture farming is what allows for the division of labor.

[@npgjnrcc4707]

Pro Libertate yes but are those life or death like food is?...... who cares about non essential services their for luxury nothing more

[@prolibertate3499]

@@npgjnrcc4707 Air conditioning, cell phones, air travel, etc are not matters of life and death, you're right. But they sure do add to the quality of life. it seems to me that many permaculture people romanticize the notion of everyone living off of their own land, in reality if everyone had to grow their own food to live we'd basically be sent back to bronze age living. Life would be brutal, short, and hard.

[@LordKain187]

@@prolibertate3499 You're having a real fallacy with your thought process there, my friend. A garden like this that'd be enough to sustain even a whole family would NOT require 40, 80, 120 hours a week of work to maintain. Setting it up could be a time eater, of course, but that applies to everything. The very advantage of it is that once it's set up, it's far easier to maintain. So you could, and people DO, have permaculture landscaping and farms, but then have actual jobs as well. And that's not even a NEW thing. For a long time people would grow things and tend to their gardens for their food during their off hours. There's still parts of the world doing that. And I don't mean 3rd world countries.

[@reidlingtheseedling]

@@prolibertate3499 Permaculture addresses quality of life and indoor climate control very well. And the division of labor argument isn't a very good one in my opinion. Specialization is for insects. Humans do much better when they have a good foundation of most skills, and a few that are advanced. If we look at Permaculture through the lens of it just being food forestry with all hands on deck (which isn't true but this is hypothetical), then the tasks that would need to be done on a daily basis would be done very very quickly and leave a lot of time for other things. This is where Curtis is wrong about hunter gatherer societies. The 4HL is a pretty new concept. For most of history and most of the world, people averaged a 25 hour work week up until probably the renaissance. You can thank the tax system that leeches on everybody so that the government can spend money on studying the sexual habits of seagulls or whatever else they feel like wasting it on. You can also thank the people who invented the hourly wage so that workers who bust their asses and get done early are punished on their earnings, creating a work environment that involves an excess of meetings and bureaucratic nonsense to waste enough time to hit 40 hours. And finally, you can thank the big businesses and consumers that turned the average person into a relentless consumer, who wouldn't miss any chance to commit ecocide on their property to have a perfect lawn, eat an excess of food mostly grown over a thousand miles away from them, packaged in dystopian materials, and feeling uncomfortable if they aren't sitting in a 68 degree Fahrenheit home glued to their TV, watching nonsense reality television or one of the several fake news channels. None of this needed to happen but it did so here we are.

[@Elaine-br4lw]

There are so many unused acres of land out there that could be used in growing food for their communities.

[@Avilacrazy]

I'm here for the comments *popcorn*

[@prolibertate3499]

Yeah, lot of triggered permaculture people here...

[@wholesystems]

If by civilization "advancing" via agriculture you mean moved from a reasonably sustainable situation that lasted the whole of our bipedal heritage (millions of years) as gatherer-hunters into a situation where we've caused one of the sixth greatest extinctions in the geological record, contaminated almost all of the surface water bodies on the planet and many of the groundwater sources as well, plundered our soils into the ocean and wiped out thousands of species all in a very short window of 10,000 years, than you might want to use a different word than "advance." Just sayin'. Love ya Curtis and keep up the great work! B

[@vegout4085]

If you want to submit an alternative to large scale industrial farming it has to be large scale and industrial? 🤔

[@IAintUrBuddyMan]

I also would like to know where his maxim comes from. Seems that Curtis made it up...

[@MarkBothwell]

If you want to feed 7.5 billion people, it does need to be large scale. We can debate whether it makes more sense to have millions of small farms or thousands of large farms, but in the aggregate, I think it makes sense to call either solution large scale. Does it need to be industrial? That depends entirely on how you define "industrial" and I suspect it would be hard to find any agreement on the definition.

[@prolibertate3499]

If you want to replace large scale industrial farming whatever replaces it would necessarily have to be large scale. The scalability of permaculture practice is the problem, if everyone had to farm to live there would be no division of labor, no things like air conditioning.

[@natejansen892]

I agree with you on some of this. There are a lot of people who are Missing the main principles of permaculture Or not Designing their home gardens appropriately. That doesn't make permaculture the bad guy. The idea of permaculture is not to replace Mainstream farming overnight , but if everyone did have a garden It would at least start to make a dent. Obviously permaculture still takes work , but with good planning it takes less work. Fruit trees still need full sun and air penetration to the canopy in permaculture. You cannot plant them under massive Oaks and walnuts and expect Good results. Some years I have to prune my apple trees 2-3× to control the growth for healthy production. So yeah, it takes work. The idea of set it and forget it Doesn't work. You have to be mindful of the changes year-to-year Just like any other farmer

[@cursedrr8647]

This video is a great example of someone jumping directly to the execution phase and complaining that it doesn't work. You execute what you established as potential solutions to problems uncovered during the design phase. If you haven't spent time understanding the most important aspect of your location then design accordingly you have only yourself to blame if the execution doesn't work.

[@deborahgrantham7387]

“Only working for things that confirm our bias”. The biggest problem in agriculture as well as culture, science, politics today. Well said.

[@steveelkins52]

I don't think you can bolt on bits of permaculture or organics that fit your commercial operation and dismiss the rest as not practicable. Please review your own video Curtis Stone- some of what you say is so way off the mark I am surprised at your lack of understanding!

[@teachatami45]

Steve Elkins I was here saying the same thing

[@bropocalypse2065]

Curtis, I really enjoy your presentation of information and your thoughtful and objective perspective. There are few channels I watch consistently but yours is one. You’re a great resource for me as I plan an operation in the southeast US that I’ll strive to make as successful as Green City Acres!

[@rhysjaggar4677]

I think the key discussions here are around creating optimal growing conditions even if soils, climates and gradients are different. So I think soil health, optimal hydrology and perennial rejuvenation are probably the key variables. Using a no-dig, annual compost mulch I have transformed clay soil from one seeing significant pest damage to very little at all within five years. What is also the case is that certain crops are more sensitive to pests in imperfect soils than others. Carrots much more sensitive than beetroot, for example. It is also obvious that different crops respond very differently to a dry summer vs a wet one. Carrots and parsnips grow very large in a drought, whereas leaves will die without regular moisture. So my view on swales is to organise them near to water-loving vegetables (beans love water, so do potatoes) and allow drier soils to host squash, carrot, beetroot and parsnip.

[@user-on5bu7xp3u]

I haven't read the full permaculture theory yet, but I'm aware of many the ideas but I already had these same thoughts too! Glad I'm not the only one

[@grizzle]

Context really is the issue at hand here. I see Permaculture as a way of thinking about systems and design under a guiding set of ethics. Unfortunately the workshops that are taught focus far too much on techniques and tools rather than design thinking. Enthusiastic participants then often, and with little to zero experience, take these tools as prescription rather then a bag of tools. You wouldn't drive a nail into a board with a saw, right? Because of this, a lot of people are going out and making huge mistakes because to them it wouldn't be permaculture without a swale an herb spiral - Check! In fact, I lived at a very well known permaculture farm for a few years, and visitors would say, "where's the herb spiral?" Even more ludicrous, "where's the permaculture?!?" looking for an array of elements to check off their list. I wish Permaculture courses spent 90% of the time on systems and design thinking and application - in a wide array of scenarios, not just agriculture. Then maybe 10% on examples and methodology and a long list of books and references to go from there.

[@Bankable2790]

Why is this the only reasonable comment? It is literally the only comment I can find so far that even qualifies anything he said as having anything of value to contribute to the conversation

[@tylerjones6979]

totally agree with your five points just don't entirely agree with your argument Personally on our farm we mix permaculture and conventional to be realistic but permaculture is not meant to replace normal farming by just changing systems it would need to rework the whole ecosystem to make tens of millions of small farmers opposed to a million large farmers but what do I know just a dude growing things. Thanks for the Videos love to see farms in other regions of the world.

[@schaefercofarm2584]

I want to prove a some what large farm can with permaculture can sustain 1 superviory positon (Me) 50 - 60K, 3 full time35 - 45K, & 3 part time 20 - 30K a year incomes. 70% - 80 % net income to payroll. Yes curtis i know it will be hard. But aim high and except when you Can't make it. If you aim for what you can easily reach, you miss out on what you didn't know you could reach. Thanks for all the knowledge you share.

[@schaefercofarm2584]

Part one. They are comparing apples to oranges. My point is the orange is supporting the LOCAL food. Then why do the apple thing. Wheat and dairy is a hole other problem. Dairy... I would say label your own and sell local. Big dairy got that blocked. I only buy local dairy for that reason. Not sure what video you mean? Hope your farm holds through it all.

[@schaefercofarm2584]

That is my goal. I am aiming to do cash crop and food bank gardens. Wich i started this year. Also micro greans and animals for meat. Not cows. So vegetable 1/ 3 micro greans 1/3 and animals 1/3.All year but harvest animals in fall. Goat mike for privet use only.

[@schaefercofarm2584]

Apples/ oranges where for analogy use only. This year i let clover grow and I'm going to have to thin out the pears. All by accident.

[@xyzsame4081]

+ Schaeferco Bravo. One advantage of smaller scale operations - or permaculture operations that are labor intense - is that they provide jobs for people. Industrial ag provides "jobs" for machines and ties the farmers often to debt.

[@YankeeBarbareno]

Mr Stone says that the lives of hunter-gatherers were "completely dedicated to self-sustenance" and then suggests that the reason such societies never reached the point of civilization is because they spent all their time securing food. This is (likely) not true. One of the first scholars to address this (probable) myth that I am aware of was Dr Paul Shepard back in the 1970s. He wrote the book, "The Tender Carnivore and the Sacred Game," among many others. He addressed this point specifically and made the point that in today's agricultural societies people work far harder and far longer to feed themselves than the hunter-gatherer societies of the past and even those few that still existed in his day. While it is indeed true that civilization is built on agriculture, and that the surplus of food provided by agriculture freed up people to do something other than produce food, and thus specialize, it does not follow that when any culture or any people had free time after securing food that they would achieve what we know today to be civlization. Mr Stone makes an illogical leap in suggesting otherwise. For example, here where I live the historic population of Chumash Indians boasted among the most sophisticated and vibrant maritime cultures in the world. Their food supply was abundant to the point that Chumash artisans are world renowned for their specialized wood plank canoes, basketry and rock art pictographs. They enjoyed plenty of leisure time. The Chumash population relative other regions was among the largest because of their stable and abundant food supply. Yet, they never achieved anything remotely close to building a civilization. And it was not because they didn't have the time and had to labor away all day long getting food.

[@lucalemstra3536]

Just adding my little fact-check to all the ones already here: His point at around the 5 minute mark about hunter-gatherers is very much false. Not only did agriculture definitely emerge from H-G groups, it did so in various places and on a vast spectrum of ways to practice agriculture. It wasn't a sudden switch from one to the other. Also, standards of living greatly reduced during the advent of agriculture due to less diverse diets, back-breaking labor and famine through failed crops (something that coincidently doesn't happen in a food forest). And I would also like to dispel the common myth that h-g groups spent all their time on foraging. They actually had way more spare time than later agricultural groups mostly because they didn't have to go around manually growing all their food.

[@offgridcurtisstone]

Good point. Thanks for debating the ideas and not calling names.

[@vtdrive12]

You are completely correct. I have been pondering the same issues I perceive exist with permaculture, that you have expressed, very well, in this video. I would add one additional problem I have found with permaculture, and that is the complexities, inherent in the application of the system. A system cannot change the world if many cannot understand how to implement it. Your statement that agriculture is unnatural and, therefore, cannot be corrected by enhancing natural systems, alone, is spot on. I, living in Vermont, have one other big problem with permaculture, and that is that the examples of how great it can function are often isolated to moderate and/or tropical and hot, arid, climates. It's great to plant bananas, kiwi,mango, and other fruit together, but they won't live in cold climates. I could go on but, for now, I'll let your words stand as a truthful representation of reality.

[@DeDraconis]

Great video. One criticism though, I don't think that's what people complain about when they complain about mono-cultures. It's not about whether or not you should plant in rows or have it all strewn about like a jigsaw puzzle right out of the box. Every time I've heard people complain about it, it was about having only one type of carrot that everybody eats, or one type of banana that all comes from the same cloned tree so that when a pest comes that kills it, the whole crop dies. Four beds of lettuce over here, six beds of carrots, that makes total sense. But why not also have one bed of Romaine, one bed of Red Leaf, one bed of Arugula and one of Escarole? Or whatever the heck you plan on growing. People are happy to overpay at market if it's some lesser known thing and you stick "Heirloom" in the front of it.

[@Dollapfin]

DeDraconis nope. When people say monocultures they mean monocultures. Monocultures destroy soils inherently. They starve important microbes and increase pest pressure in the order of magnitudes. You can use your own definition for monocultures, but there’s a real reason why people hate them. They’re unsustainable. Farmers are beginning to plant covers into the standing crop. That’s a polyculture. Farmers are also planting soybeans into growing wheat. This gives the wheat time to dry while the soybeans can grow underneath them without taking anything from the crop. Lower yields are met by this but it allows the farmer to make more crop per year total. It’s much better to have lower yields than leave something fallow.

[@DeDraconis]

Interesting, I've never heard that use before. But I've only ever looked at it from a consumer perspective, as I have a rather black thumb. So you're saying that a soil issue when just one plant is grown in the same plot over and over again, taking the same nutrients? Wouldn't that be solved just by cycling which bed you use for what year-to-year?

[@chantalgardner3157]

I love these type of discussions where people are able to discuss excellent differences of perceptions. This is exactly how it should be done. Great job!

[@Christodophilus]

I'll give you my version of what Matthew is discussing, DeDraconis. Soil microbes are the life in the soil. They are what actually feed the plants. Soil is just the medium microbes live in, and give the plant something to grow into. But plants give something back to microbes, specific bacteria and sugars to feed them, through what they excrete on their roots. If you don't have any kind of plant in the soil, after harvest, you're effectively starving the soil microbes. So next time you come to plant, there's less natural fertility available. Plus sunlight is allowed to penetrate the soil layers, and cook/kill the microbes. The benefit of having one plant harvested, while allowing another plant to grow is, you're maintaining the food supply, for the soil microbes. Plus you aren't allowing sunlight in to cook them. Rotating the bed, only reduces certain bad bacteria building up in the soil, which makes it difficult to grow the same kind of plants, which have grown their before. It doesn't deal with the natural resilience in the soil, by building up the different kinds of microbes, over consecutive years.

[@DeDraconis]

Thank you for that explanation, I never heard about that issue before.

[@HunterSells]

Integrated agriculture systems that utilize permaculture principles would require just as much if not more land devoted to environmental regeneration (acres of tended beneficial forest, soil building semi-wild grasslands, etc) with the agriculture sparsely scattered throughout. This is something that would lower the overall output of the agriculture yearly but would increase the sustainability and climate elasticity of a system as well as lower pest pressures. If your idea is to make as much money as possible off of the least amount of land space then whatever you're doing is not permaculture principles, it might be organic, or bio-controlled, or peppered with ideas of environmental awareness, but the #1 thing that permaculture is based on is that the needs of the SOIL, the WILDLIFE, and the BIOME are inherently more valuable than the needs of the humans on that soil, in that biome, and amongst that wildlife. Some people believe in this because they love the environment, some believe in it because they understand that the survivability and sustainability of such a system is inherently degrees of magnitute greater than conventional/semi-conventional or even organic agriculture. If one puts the matter of money above the matter of stewardship then inherently the system is going to take more than it gives. Any system that takes more than it gives is a time-bomb waiting to happen. IF your farm requires that you import organic material from miles away, import seed from miles away, import labor or machinery from miles away and then export produce miles away in order to sustain it has a weakness that will inevitably be exploited either by nature, or socio-economic pressures. You may make 4 times as much money off of that land in the interim but the land will inevitably degrade. Unless you are balanced with nature (which can be done, even in the most arbitrary way such as acre per acre cultivated for production/cultivated for regeneration), nature will balance the system at your expense. It's really just a matter of lowering overall yields now for that balance to occur, or waiting until the natural order lowers those yields dramatically further as back-payment for all the value you've taken from the land. Very much like a bank, nature will charge interest when it comes to balancing that checkbook. Considering the climate shift we are experiencing and will continue to experience for the next few decades concerning the solar cycles and the Eddie Minimum, it would behoove farmers to dramatically lower their profit margins for the sake of increasing their diversity and balance with nature. If you have 30 acres of land devoted to a similar style such as this where only 10% of the land is devoted to beneficial abundance and habitat, and soil building is presumably all done by imported organic material, it would be wise to make that close to 60% beneficial habitat, with 30% of that land to be used strictly as soil builder i.e. fast growing diverse trees to be trimmed in late summer and composted to improve soil fungal growth and ecology and transplant subsoil nutrients. Another thing that I think most people miss in these kinds of critiques is the necessary work that is involved to do such a thing, even making beneficial habitat requires work and know how to get the MOST out of those organisms. What flowers for which species of Parasitic wasps, what species out of thousands are abundant in your location, where do they reproduce, when and how can you improve their reproduction. It's not as simple as just planting 15 flower species and walking away, it might help, but you have to put JUST AS MUCH WORK into your regenerative plots as you do into your production plots, otherwise nature is imbalanced, and so will your life be whenever nature comes a calling. And yes, there is enough land and enough able bodied people to do what I've described and still feed the majority of the population, however it will require a precipice of destruction before the majority of people decide that such a thing is worth their investment, fortunately or unfortunately depending on your outlook, that precipice is rapidly approaching thanks to the solar cycle among other things, and when conventional agriculture cannot feed the population due to its inherent weakness, people will introduce ideas like this with abandon and they will work. it might take more people and less tractors and it might make the world a little less specialized bc of an increase of the required number of actual growers vs. consumers, but in all honesty the number of people we have that are getting degrees in useless materialistic endeavors, spending their lives supporting an increasingly over-complicated and over-indulgent masturbatory society constantly distracted, constantly marketed, constantly walking on the never ending treadmill to be tax cows and/or lining up to create the next big distraction and corner the next flashing illustrious market. We could very much do with a reintigration of a large sector of the population back into the growing business. Luckily I think nature/God are very much aware of this and cycles are in place to FORCE that reorganization of society and simplification of our lives and civilization. Inevitably change will come and nature will teach us to harness it's truths at the expense of our gratification in the now, for the security and prosperity of our children. This is not meant to be a hatepost on this video, I think work like the one in this farm is segwaying us into such a world, but in reality it's meant to be a warning that if we continue to hold onto that profit margin ideology, when nature obliterates it, we too could be lost in the process. But if as Curtis here pointed out, we can put away such ideologies and do what we have to do when reality strikes then life will be improved and we will be the better for it.

[@HunterSells]

Steve Slade climate elasticity is an easy way of saying that a system maintains it's productivity whether or not the climate becomes erratic and/or extreme. In the same way an elastic band can withstand physical pressure (push and pull) and still maintain its shape after, a well maintained system can withstand climatological pressure and still produce. I'm sorry if I didn't punctuate correctly, let me know if you want me to send you a voice recording just in case reading isn't your strong suit.

[@MIgardener]

Oh how I love this video. Curtis, this video just made the list as my favorite and most agreeable video EVER. I have the exact same sentiments, just glad you have the cahones to come out and talk about it.

[@vistillia]

MIgardener | Simple Organic Gardening & Sustainable Living I seem to recall your video against companion planting that touched on some of this info tangentially. I appreciated that as a baby gardener who feels like she’s doing it wrong half the time.

[@thegoodwolffarmsregenerati4458]

Yes! Heck yes, number 3 lol mulch everywhere, like ok, earwig lord lol

[@ricetune]

Curtis weeded our the internet bs for us! Brilliant job ol’chap.

[@leetime454]

Can't agree more we did heavy mulch one year same thing. Earwigs, pillbugs and even voles galore.

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

So right after I read your comment - the vid I was watching - the white dude said for "civilization to advance" you need agriculture - you can't have hunter gatherers. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eWHOh3yJaNeEaJo The irony of this is that Forests are the most "productive" - they are so complex that supercomputers can not "model" their ecology. haha. This silly myth of "progress" - oh a good book on that is - books.google.com/books/about/Victims_of_Progress.html?id=iZzdiOK895YC Victims of Progress provides a global overview of the struggle between small-scale indigenous societies and the colonists and corporate developers that invaded their territories over the past 200 years to extract resources. It shows how these small-scale societies have survived by organizing politically to defend their basic human rights, and shows that they are now being impacted by oil and natural gas development and tropical deforestation, as well as global warming. This compelling account of the effects of technology and development on indigenous peoples throughout the world examines major issues of intervention: social engineering, economic development, self-determination, health and disease, and ecocide. Victims of Progress provides a provocative context in which to think about civilization and its costs. In this new fifth edition, Bodley provides extensive new discussions on the increased political power of the Nunavut in the Canadian Arctic, the role of indigenous people in the Arctic Council, shifts in Aboriginal rights in Australia, and many new developments on the impact of global warming on indigenous populations around the world. So what is this "farmer" talking about for "civilization to advance." - Does he even realize what he is saying? Yeah Cargill turning the Amazon into Monsanto (Bayer) soybean fields - just as the Amazon is the Brain of the planet - so too our modern brains are turned into microchipped silica (soy) nanobiomotors for the Matrix....

[@thenewyorkredneck4735]

I use stump grindings and cover them with a layer of sod I removed from the other side of my lawn where I made a new bed. I'm only on the 2nd year but it's working pretty well so far The it breaks down within the season. I'm pretty happy with it

[@vj1065]

Started this video expecting to give a thumbs down, ended up giving a thumbs up. What he says does make sense and is clearly explained. I think it's important to point out though that permaculture, proper permaculture wouldn't be trying to turn out as much food as the farm that he's referencing. It would also require less work. I'm still not entirely sure wether or not I agree with the video. I agree with Curtis' points, but I think a lot of people misunderstand permaculture.... I suppose that it all boils down to a fundamental difference between permaculture and agriculture. Permaculture is a lot more than just farming.

[@99cornisland]

Man that is the most realistic advice ever. So many myths that just waste your time. Thanks for being real for us Curtis.

[@javicarranza7279]

Gabe brown is doing large scale no till organic in North Dakota

[@kitt080863]

Love that guy!

[@halfacrefarmsbell5674]

Love Gabe browns work but he’s doing more of a live stock based farm and Curtis is talking more about vegetable production.

[@TerrierBram]

2:02 That's a logical fallacy. Because the goal of permaculture is not to produce a ton of a planproduct, or an animal product, but to create a decent livelyhood for people. The goal of large scale commercial agriculture is points in fiat currency. Who ever said that permaculture has that goal? It is what you earn as an consultant. So I guess that you mix up a personal incentive, with the real goal of permaculture, and that is not the same as that of agriculture. So, how can permaculture can come up with fitting solutions, for something that has a totally different goal and principe. Agriculture is putting in petroleum to use the earth as a commodity, permaculture is establishing life on the earth, by building it up. In Dutch we say that you are comparing apples with pears. The resulting economy of permaculture doesn't fit the narrative of the cabal. Permaculture is about taking responsibility over life, as basic principle for freedom. Commercial agriculture is to tear down life, with petroleum fed machines, while being a slave of the banks as a farmer. Mollison had a solution, but that doesn't mean that there's also an important aspect you didn't mention. It is the farmer who chooses a solution. And because there's critique on their choices, doesn't mean that Mollisons solution should fit their financial situation. Know thyself. Your life is in you, not in your obligation to an institute, that creates points out of thin air, and has a deal with the government to enforce you to exclusively use only that kind of points for currency, under the threat with possible deadly state violence. That's a dire situation that forms the context, and it is the context that takes your opinion in discredit. Because there is a fiat and cohersive money system, Mollison should had taken that in account for permaculture solutions? He didn't, and now his permaculture solutions are false? No, bizar.

[@AslansMane88]

The comments: "I listened for 90 seconds and gave my opinion. I don't need context to criticize this man's criticism of context!"

[@kevinearthsoul946]

Another basic assumption of American agriculture which can't be reconciled with permaculture is the expectation of yield per farmer. Although yields are typically measured in yield (bushels or pounds) per acre, conventional agriculture is build around maximizing yield per farmer and uses mechanical and chemical/fossil means to achieve it. A fundamental change of thinking introduced by permaculture is in increasing yield per acre while eliminating chemical/fossil inputs and often sacrificing mechanical automation. It's not designed as a profit-center.

[@vivinpan]

Oh dear, how is it you can think that it's a choice only between big-big farming and running around as individuals picking fruits and berries and snatching the occasional meat providing animal>??????????????? Is nothing in-between possible???????? I'm very curious now about your educational background. I really enjoy your videos but this one is nuts! Ok, I'll stop now.

[@offgridcurtisstone]

I said it in the first few minutes. Maybe you missed that.

[@vivinpan]

...didn't miss it. Did forget everything else you said?

[@ward26102]

I have to agree. Much of the video renounced permaculture principles, if I can sum it up, as bad practices (" what permaculture got wrong"). The truth is, the practices were used incorrectly for the situation. Curtis did mention context a number of times, but that is not in alignment with the title of the video or suggesting that things like swales are are a bad idea. Swales and mulch are very effective for me because of my climate. Bottom line is, the video was contradictory and click-baity. I think a follow up video is due on how to use permaculture practices correctly in the context of one's local environment. There is a whole world between big ag and permies running around gathering nuts and berries.

[@etiennelouw9244]

My Grandfather did organic farming very close to your way of doing stuff. He was very successful at farming, using prison labor at times.

[@RickLarsonPermacultureDesigner]

You obviously haven't read Permaculture a Designers' Manual.

[@RickLarsonPermacultureDesigner]

There are no agricultural solutions, no agricultural sustainability, none of these methods are sustainable because there are changing conditions. But I digress.

[@attaje]

I was thinking the same

[@dobimarniebelschuetz9213]

I did. And I belief he is right at the moment. We will see in the future.

[@japislav]

he just scratched the surface of a giant golden turdball that is permaculture

[@levytate2450]

The criticism is of applying permaculture principles incorrectly by other farmers. If they all have read the permaculture designer's manual, then this video wouldn't have existed. So, for those who haven't read it, here are quick five things to avoid.

[@rifarmerbob4588]

You are 100% correct on mulching with organic matter like straw. If you use it everywhere, you create a perfect breeding ground for many crop pests. Heavy mulching around squash and cucumber plants create hiding places for squash bugs and cucumber beetles. Heavy mulching around root crops leads to a banquet for click beetles who then lay their eggs in the soil which become wire-worms that devastate future root crops and sown seed. I use your suggested approach and apply an initial 6" diameter (12" for tomatoes) layer of not too thick grass clippings or straw around the plants themselves. Just enough to suppress weeds near them and preserve water until they get established enough to where they in effect become their own mulch.

[@Chickmamapalletfarm]

Hmmm, I have struggled with each of these points in my own small farm. However my understanding of permaculture has much to do with flexibility and mindfulness and watchfulness. Observing what works and what doesn’t, adjusting based on needs of the environments created. I also am not sure I think of 4 rows of onions and 6 rows of carrots as monoculture... that is larger scale gardening, which is great. Granted my farm is one of those small scale farms, and while I sell at market, I only sell at one... My understanding of the ideology of permaculture is kind of along the same line as “it takes a village...”. I do what works on my small farm, and the other guy does what works on his or hers. I do believe that what we are currently doing as a nation (and planet) is not sustainable. We will have to adjust, and sadly that is not likely to happen until we hit a critical point of desertification, death of soil biology, and maybe even starvation. But happily it is happening. I grew up in rural Illinois. Things are changing there. This past year I saw farmers cover cropping over winter who have never done that before. (Sadly they used glyphosate to kill off the cover crop before planting in the spring... 😔. but baby steps... we are getting there.) As true mono-crop farmers continue to have decreased yields and the cost of high tech seeds, chemicals, and massive inputs don’t make the difference, they will change. In the mean time small farms are popping up all over. Large numbers of Mom’s like me, are Turing their yards and property into small scale farms... mid sized farms are being put back into sustainable production by the young people in the family who are picking up the torch as grandpa turns over more and more land to them. More and more people are using permaculture principals, being mindful of soil health. Maybe we will be OK.

[@ericfulda4196]

Great analysis of Permaculture. I managed a community garden in Sunnyvale CA and 10% of it was a Food Forest planted and manged by some dedicated gardeners, but as you say its production was random and it became over grown by the fruit tree, and was difficult to manage due to the weeds . . etc. I use to tell people touring that it was an example of what someone could do in their backyard in a 20 by 100 space, but no, it was not practical for consistent production in all the ways you pointed out. The man who planted it promoted the food forest permaculture movement also planted fruit trees of any varieties from all over the world, which we still enjoy to this day. Thank You Art G.

[@ArtKrishnamurti]

I find your interest in "dispelling" or challenging permaculture a bit odd, given that you're not too familiar with it and are making many assumptions (incorrectly). This would have been better done with JM (since you're on his farm and using it in your critique 🤔), or another experienced permaculture implementer.

[@Isaacmantx]

ArtKrishnamurti as he has often done, Curtis is talking specifically about context. The permaculture world has been around for quite a while and STILL doesn’t have a SINGLE high production marketable enterprise in place that isn’t a fairly heavily blended with modern market garden practices (which are quite a departure from the permaculture ideology). On a small scale, permaculture shines bright. If you are exclusively concerned with producing food for only up to the production needed for a large family (or just a few families), permaculture is a phenomenal solution. On a production scale, there is no evidence of a truly permaculture system producing consistently enough, and in enough abundance, to sustain a business in the marketplace.

[@ward26102]

Curtis speaks the truth as he has experienced it. As I listen to what he's saying closely, he does not say that permaculture principles are wrong, bad, or even ineffective, but that they must be taken IN CONTEXT. Curtis is one of the most well-read, experienced farmers, who personally knows most of the farming and permaculture people he speaks about in the video. I have a permaculture background and I believe what he says is true. I live in the hot, low desert and uses swales and heavy mulch, but someone in the midwest, northwest or other parts of the country may have problems with flooding or fungus if they use these techniques. If you live in a lush area and have time, you can gather wild or semi-wild food. But, it won't work to feed your community, possibly not even be sufficient for just your family. If understand his point correctly, the key is to carefully consider every technique in terms of your own geography, land, climate, rainfall, elevation, available resources and time, access to natural gatherable edibles, etc. Use the sustainable practices that work in context, and may not only save resources but money. Simple example: I save money on my city water bill by capturing rainwater from my roof and using it in my garden.

[@Isaacmantx]

Laura Ward I totally agree. To your last point, I would also add production needs and harvest labor, because that tends to be where permaculture systems fall behind conventional methods.

[@Phelan666]

Permaculture, at it's core, is a revolutionary system that aims to dismantle modern agriculture. Saying that it doesn't fit within the system of modern agriculture is a bit of a no-brainer.

[@ward26102]

I would not agree that permaculture aims to dismantle anything, but to present an alternative approach. True permaculture is at one end of the spectrum and huge, wasteful, Monsanto-type massive farms are at the other. Almost all of us will be somewhere in between. The permaculture principles, even if attempted in moderation and in context, results in better care for the earth and our resources. The principles don't all work everywhere, but considering them when planning the farm is important if one wants to use a more natural approach that can reduce waste of resources including water. I have a small farm. I use the permaculture principles that work for me. But I grow row crops also. So there you go. It's not "one or the other" as the only two methods of doing farming.

[@badbambi85]

Permaculture is about a change in culture in paradigm about how we feed ourselves today. If permaculture is more widespread than big scale agriculture has no place is a sustainable future. Big scale agriculture is for the 1% to continue getting richer so let’s get back to manageable scale agriculture

[@factitiously]

How big is large-scale farming to you? According to the Permaculture Association’s 2012 Permaculture Farm survey, 31% of all respondents manage 25 acres and more using permaculture, among them are for example Westfield Farm (30ac), Ragmans Farm (60ac) and Dyfed Permaculture Farm (20ac). I think you're making an assumption that it can't work as a means of commercial farming. However, just because the technology is in its infancy, doesn't mean that it can't ultimately work. There are people already using permaculture farming in a commercial manner who are selling their food using csa's and being quite successful. So you're saying these things can't happen, but they are happening, albeit in small amounts right now, but maybe more in the future, especially as a technology continues to improve.

[@brokenroadhomestead609]

I admit I don't know a lot about swales but isn't their purpose to control erosion and stop wash away of topsoil, as much as it is to keep the water on your farm as long as possible? If water is running off as fast as wants, isn't it also washing away a lot of your soil and nutrients in your soil? Not a criticism, just a question.

[@ward26102]

I use swales to capture water because I live in the desert. Another commenter does the opposite, uses them to prevent snow melt and rain runoff from flooding the area. How you use them depends on where you live

[@Christodophilus]

I'd love to know the purpose of the actual swale, Curtis referred to in the video. What was it's design purpose? It may have been dug, just to experiment with swales - or it could have been placed there to deal with a pooling water issue - perhaps to collect water off the footpaths. You cannot tend to your market garden, efficiently, if your footpaths are soggy. I have swales because I live on slopes. It reduces erosion, and manages the water where I want it to go - like "around" the house, not downhill, towards it. Swales are actually employed by many local governments to deal with water, in relation to roads too. Mostly in rural areas, where budgets don't extend to digging pipes underground. So they certainly have their benefits, with a suitable function to perform.

[@chasecopeland5530]

You mentioned in the last video that there are other enterprises on Jean's farm, I remember one being grass fed beef. Could you perhaps make a video about those enterprises on the farm? I loved the video you did awhile back with Jodi Roebuck's sheep. More videos like that would be great.

[@friendlyone2706]

"Confirmation bias" is the bane of ALL research, not just farming. We book readers tend to read only books that we believe will confirm our world view. We news junkies prefer watching, reading & listening to people who will say what we want to hear. Even physicists will set up an experiment with a preferred result in mind. When you farmer types engage in confirmation bias, is the most serious----especially when there are so many of us non farmers. Love your shows! Thank you for sharing your hard-earned experience.

[@benjamin7627]

I agree that there are many holes in the permaculture philosophy. The main one being that permaculture can not feed the world as the world is and there are questions as to how it can be applied to the agricultural system we currently have today. Hovever I must give credit to the permaculture movement for creating a platform for people looking for alternative solutions to the problems we face and to get the ball rolling, it has been a vehicle for people to shake off the mould of their way of thinking and to open peoples minds. One thing you said Curtis was that we could not move away from being hunter gather societies and advance to the level we are today if not for agriculture. However I believe the hunter gather society is extremly advanced we have have only been conditioned to believe we are the more advanced society. For example here in Australia the Indigenous nations have been a continuous culture for tens of thousands of years one might say as the longest continuous culture on earth they might be more advanced than our own notion of advanved civilisation which last merley a few hundred years to a thousand at most before dying off. To say we are more advanced so advanced that were going to destroy ourselves which is what every advanced sociery does is quite ludicrous when you think aboit it. What Permanculture does is to make us think outside of the box for alternative solutions that are in harmony with nature and the environment. Its not perfect but its the only thing which currently gets people to think outside the conventional framework. You mighy say its a conversation starter that gets the ball rolling. Its still up to us to find the solutions.

[@Christodophilus]

I'd like to thank you for pointing out the longer view, and how there are different ways to measure "advanced" civilisations. .There is a reason indigenous cultures remain the longest living populations. They possess the capacity to adapt in the face of extremes - because they were more open-minded to systems evolving together, rather than living as if they were separate entities. I would counter, there IS enough food growing right now, to feed the world's population outside of any man-made growing system. It's just they're crops we don't learn to recognise as food. Because we're not taught what IS actually food, and per head of population, we certainly wouldn't want to part-take in acquiring it, beyond a trip to the shops. I see the possibility of history repeating itself, with the "feeding the world" mentalities, locked into what society likes to deem, "advanced food growing systems". In the past, European settlers would set-up large populations to colognize new territory, assuming they possessed the tools required for feeding them. However, the environment was so different, most of those original populations died from starvation. It took advanced Indigenous populations, to take pity and teach the settlers how to recognise the food growing all around them. There was a period of hybridisation, where the Europeans adopted certain indigenous crops and merged them into their food growing systems. They prospered, however, their growing systems were always more vulnerable to failure, and their populations declining through ill health - because they relied more heavily on their advanced food growing systems. Per head of population though, indigenous tribes passed on the knowledge of what was food in nature, and what was food you could plant in nature to harvest a crop. In other words, they never had an "exclusive" man-made system, to "exclusively" feed their populations. It was always a hybridised system. Which is how they could come to be the longest living civilisations - not putting MORE of all their eggs, in one basket. Movements like permculture, preppers and even the homesteading movement, attempt to teach more of our populations, to recognise and harvest wild foods. Of course, they always encounter criticisms, that kind of mentality won't feed the world. But then, if we learn from indigenous cultures, it was never about that kind of exclusive mentality anyway.

[@tigersun1]

I appreciate the perspective of your video. Certainly there is a lot of work to be done to make agriculture more sustainable and eco-friendly, and it's nice to see that there are sincere attempts at doing this on an economic scale. There are lots of great ideas and inventions and entrepreneurial opportunities waiting in this area, but policies have to guide markets in the right direction.

[@annieterminetschuppon7233]

Finally someone speaking out his mind about permaculture. I have found myself in similar situation, picked some principals while keeping few "conventional" straight beds of veggies.

[@mourlyvold7655]

Please point me to the law in permaculture that forbids straight beds...

[@Jack-yf1ss]

Fungus is never a bad thing in the garden! Its breaks everything down and feeds plant. Its an incredible thing!

[@AdrianHepburn-vz9yr]

Until it wipes out your seedlings.

[@wilderfarmstead]

I love this line of thinking, and the key point "agriculture does not exist in nature." I'm working on a hobby project that I've been referring to as a "food forest farm" in my spare time. Your video has pointed out a lot of flaws in the system I can put some extra effort into fixing. Thanks Curtis, great info as always!

[@thevalleygate625]

One possible replacement for the production lost from large scale farming operations are massive networks of small localised farms operating regionally. Rather than farms geared towards production at a national level they focus on providing the needs and requirements for their local area. The need and demand from the massive amount of people now living in urban environments has helped create this massive consumption based system we find ourselves in now. How much food grown by large scale farms does the industrial food complex use to make the convenience foods that are slowly poisoning a vast majority of our populations? Where I live in NZ it is substantially cheaper to buy pre made package food than it is to buy fresh local produce. I commend you Curtis for the journey you are on and the knowledge you are passing on to the many people around the world trying to create a better way for people.

[@IAintUrBuddyMan]

Two things, first who said that you would get rid of all pests with hedgerows? This is a big straw man you keep setting up, and then you act like JM using insect nets refutes permaculture somehow. Further, this is only one of the intended benefits of hedgerows. You show that you are not much of a permaculture thinker by being so fixated on the insect issue. Second, No-Dig market gardening in a holistically-managed permaculture context, with commercial yields is not a myth - see Richard Perkins' farm. Curtis, I know you know about Ridgedale Permaculture, so why keep making these clickbait items talking crap on permaculture? Actually I think I just answered my own question.

[@heronlyfriend]

Spencer Heaps Straw men, everywhere lol

[@juanbaca6565]

Spencer Heaps Bless up

[@petyaivanova9139]

Hello Curtis Stone, and thank you for shareing another poit of view. You mentioned that In that particular farm they have experience with Elaine Ingham's concept and technology; can you give more information about what were her recomendations, what was the aplaying, did you reach the needed biomas ratio in the soil, and any observations? Thank you!

[@ienekevanhouten4559]

Apart from the previous remark I totally love this video, especially the emphasis on avoiding ideological thinking. We see it everywhere in society and it drives me nuts. The tendency to circle the wagons around one’s ideological camp. The refusal to grant an opponent a point. Great work. Here in the wet West Kootenays permanent mulch, even in a home garden, just makes for even more slugs and voles.

[@byrefilms]

I have adopted permaculture methods for the production of food for my family and friends. They all appreciate the taste and sustainable methods of production. I would never suggest this as a commercial replacement for agricultural production, but I am lucky enough to own some small piece of land and can do it and save money. It is not something I would ever do as a business, but would encourage anybody with a smallest piece of land....even a few containers on a balcony to do! The more of us that adopt these methods, the more it will force food producers to look at feeding the soil and not the plants. Due to the massively, and growing, city populations, I fear that modern farming techniques will continue resulting in increasing desertification and nitrogen pollution.

[@roberthicks5542]

One of my top 5 favorite videos you have produced

[@ABAdventureChannel]

Would love to see a video about what you think Permaculture has gotten right - Thanks again for this awesome channel Curtis!

[@marshwetland3808]

He mentions some of those things in his article.

[@quietude_sun5149]

This guy clearly has never understood the concepts nor message of permaculture lol the pinnacle of permaculture is often missed!

[@qwipperty]

It's not within his financial interest to understand. Permaculture will be demonized the same way wind farms are now. Anything that cuts into the profits of the elites is baaaaad.

[@prolibertate3499]

He only quoted several of the founders and big wigs in the permaculture movement and showed the faulty nature of their thinking. His main argument is that large scale farming allows for the division of labor. The division of labor is objectively a good thing. Permaculture methods don't have the scalability of farming. Therefore, if we want a division of labor, permaculture practices are impractical.

[@dayglowfunkyjunky]

Love the realism and practicality of this. I'm taking this to heart because I'm planning my farm at the moment!

[@riverspirit2357]

You seem to have plenty of bias and trouble with objectivity, even as you point to that problem in those you disagree with. So easy to call what you disagree with "myths" instead of giving supportive evidence as to your own assertions! You cannot see outside your own box. You are not informing -- just opinionated. Boo.

[@qwipperty]

Follow the money. Agriculture is about profit. Permaculture is about the planet.

[@paulabrown5685]

Curtis your words are an encouragement to gardeners to pay attention to your space.....somebody else’s method may not work as good for you as it is for them....you may have to adapt to your weather, soil, resources etc. thank you!

[@rgilroy1909]

Paid student intern, assistant farm manager & assistant agricultural educator. Mr. Stone this is the best advice I can give our new farming students. "I'm picking what you're putting down😉!" Thanks for "saying" what the old farmers have been "doing" for years.

[@ArmageddonAfterparty]

Don't show them that you wrote " I'm am".

[@clr977]

Super informative, the comments are all over the place. Everyone has their valid points but he is speaking of large scale agriculture. I love permaculture, but agriculture IS needed today. Maybe in the future things will change but today we need both, one more than the other

[@jacquelineberry2968]

You nailed it, thanks for your clarity

[@EZAZPI]

1. Food forests don't dependably fix big ag problems 2. Lazy gardening is an oxymoron 3. Total mulching is impractical 4. Swales are overapplied 5. Permaculture doesn't cure all pest issues

[@cat3rgrl246]

truth!! in my area we get over 40 inches of rain annually on average, you do not want to detain water you want it to flow away. the land does not like mulch, mulch it and nothing will grow, try to use it between rows and it seems to encourage weed growth. The land does like compost, for a small self sustaining garden here compost in raised beds is the way to go. For a market garden plant in the ground and use fabric between rows, pests abound you will have losses. here you plant by percentages . plant what you hope to get add another 25%. for critters and mother nature . If you are lucky you get a bonus. We have years that seem to favor one or two crops, and at best you will get a minimal results for the others

[@vivinpan]

I really enjoy your channel, but the kind of statements you're making in this video should be being made on a debate panel by top of the heap experts in the environment, sociology, history, agriculture in all its aspects, marine ecology etc...and not by a youTuber as wonderful as he may be. As this video progressed I felt more and more shock, nay, horror as I listened to you so irresponsibly trashing permaculture. Having said that, OF COURSE permaculture as it exists now, is not a 'replacement' for big (earth raping, pesticide dependent, chemically fertilizing, water...greedy greedy greedy... ) farming. Permaculture is an ideal that should be studied to point where it BECOMES a viable alternative and yes one day SOON I hope before it really is too late, a 'replacement'. As long as we let huge, rich and ruthless companies like Bayer/Monsanto decide what we're going to eat regardless of the cost in health to the planet and to the people eating their chemicals and to poor uneducated farmers in India, for example, that get caught in their snares, (and commit suicide because they're no match ), then, we deserve, I guess, whatever is happening and is yet to come. Anyway, back to the point. Isn't a lot of smaller farmers properly permaculturing better than 4 REALLY BIG, REALLY POWERFUL AND REALLY RICH companies whose only interest is to create super-customers for themselves moving and shaking only towards big mono-culture farming which is feeding us chemical shit on a stick and destroying the planet!!!!!!!!!! Talk about a no-brainer. If there's one thing I've learned in my half century or so of life it's that our scientists and lovers of knowledge who also have an affection for human life and care if we survive as a species, CAN figure out a way to do ANYTHING. But the profit lobby won't let it happen from the top down because scientific studies require devotion and money, and it will NOT let money go to a cause that will saw off its legs. It's got to come from the bottom up. And people like you Justin, who have an audience, shouldn't be making such sweeping, irresponsible statements because like a politician you will influence people who will vote for politicians who will decide where money for important studies goes.

[@offgridcurtisstone]

With long comments like that, you should make your own video. Prove me wrong!

[@vivinpan]

Whaaa? Make a video? Prove you wrong? I'm not a you tuber. I'm not an an expert. There are however things I don't know and things I do know. Big farming hurts the soil, it hurts the animals that would have lived there, it hurts people because it's not healthy to eat pesticides and it turns out it is not sustainable. Permaculture on the other hand, common sense tells me, deserves to be studied just in case there's still time to gradually start to implement its principles...because it hurts no one and it seems it's sustainable. That's all I'm trying to say. Sorry I can't make a video or prove you wrong.

[@offgridcurtisstone]

Where there you go then. Comments into oblivion ;)

[@vivinpan]

Really? I thought I was commenting in a conversation not into oblivion. Your comment was just unkind. Anyway - Justin - you have a huge audience. I hope you transition over time to teach your followers ONLY kindness towards the only provider really that we have and that's the soil and respect for "the science" of true sustainability. I'm not an expert but I have land, I'm very close to someone who is an expert, I read a lot and I have my eyes wide open. The situation is bad. Well, it's been a gas. Keep up the great work (except for uknow...)

[@vivinpan]

oops! Could I feel any more stupid? I'm glad he didn't notice as he would have used it against me...Thanks for the pointing out. We know now who among us is the most conscious reader.

[@WhatWeDoChannel]

I’m glad to see you writing in Small Farm magazine!

[@offgridcurtisstone]

I didn't know I did.

[@barrywinters1142]

Curtis, I've learned a lot from you. The most important concept is 'CONTEXT'.

[@aquariumusic7304]

liked this video Curtis. I agree on the need for areas of monoculture even in a permaculture system, it's pretty self-evident that that will save a lot of time and produce yields. I think there is a lot of need for hybrid farms especially in different climates.

[@survivalpodcasting]

Sorry dude, it is all about context and while many permies struggle with that, you do as well. I am sure you deal with a lot of pie in the sky types that have no idea how to make a commercial operation work. This therefore has twisted your view, but you are getting almost every part of this wrong. I love ya man, you know that, but you are just ignoring many large scale operations that actually do exactly what you are saying they don't do.

[@survivalpodcasting]

I think you should call this video what many so called permaculturists got wrong. All your objections are to what people have done and think, none of these criticisms are actually about the SCIENCE of permaculture. You are talking about people who take ideology, marry it to the concept of permaculture and then take a techniques and tactics and use those with no idea of the proper use of them. Swales for instance. It is just painful to listen to you. Permaculture as a design science does not mean put in swales. A swale is a technique, its implementation is a tactic. Criticizing permaculture saying permaculture is the idea that everything should be swaled has nothing to do with the design science of permaculture. It has to do with people becoming addicted to a technique and labeling it as the overall thing. I mean why do you think nets would not be permaculture or pruning a tree would not be permaculture, why do you think having "everything strewn about and mixed about" is permaculture? Your criticism is NOT about permaculture, it is judging people attempting to use it and failing when they do so.

[@survivalpodcasting]

Does everything you claim it doesn't, in a desert kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5Svk4JmZ9GVbdk Again you are conflating people who say they are doing permaculture with the science of permaculture design. I know plenty of spin famers doing it wrong and going fing broke, but that isn't what spin farming got wrong, it is what spin famers get wrong. Mark Shepherd's New Forest Farm is the epitome of a permaculture operation and it is a savanna model food forest.

[@epitrix]

Jack Spirko : Permaculture is not science. Not even close. If it were science, it would be testing its ideas and claims and finding them to be false, or at least so highly dependent on context that they aren't worth mentioning. PC is a set of practices gleaned from actual sciences - agroforestry, agroecology, landscape ecology - and used to further an agenda. Which is fine...except that the practices are taught as rules and zealously promoted by folks with little actual training in agriculture, horticulture, landscape design. So the points made in this video are absolutely spot-on. It's tiresome to hear permies reply to criticisms b saying "well that's not what we do" or "that's not permaculture" - Permaculture continues to promote a lot of myths that are misleading or wrong in order to sell itself as a system to upper middle class folks who will never, ever have to actually get most of their calories from their "projects" . And that is worth criticizing.

[@Christodophilus]

epitrix77, Bill Mollison, came up with the permaculture principles as a paid scientist, by the Australian government. He was working on ways to control certain pest populations, man had introduced into state forests. He studied the forest, to see how he might mitigate that problem - which is how he stumbled upon his permaculture concepts. He published the permaculture principles as an individual (along with a student of his, David Holgrem) so it was not affiliated as a government initiative, or to his credentials, as a scientist. But the formulaic way the principles are applied, is adaptive to cause and effect - implementation, observation and review. Which is where you and Curtis, have gotten it wrong. Permaculture is not a one solution wonder, or a grab bag of magic tricks to fool the gullible. It's the formulaic strategy of implementing natural design, observing it's performance over time, then intervening where it's appropriate to get a better outcome. That's the basic summary. Geoff Lawton (another student of Bill's) documents his strategies online, and so do most of Geoff's students. What you and Curtis are dealing with perhaps, is cognitive dissonance. You cannot migrate permaculture over to big Ag, without an attitude adjustment. So you blame those who put forward an alternative, rather than research, and understand further, what they're talking about. I agree with you and Curtis that it's a challenge to migrate permaculture over to, let's call them monoculture crops, on a large or small scale. Challenging, yes. But what is the alternative, if we ever see a day, oil becomes a rare commodity?

[@heartlandranchtv4943]

The permaculture movement is far more of a new age religion than actual science. It's based on a lot of psuedo scientific ideas, and is largely driven by a marxist/malthusian political agenda. Most of the "permies" that I've met or talked to come across as overly idealistic (and very naive) ludites.

[@Meleeman011]

If I wanted a monoculture I would have not done it like that. Use hydroponics for reliability, I think you could do more to reduce pests, I think natural solutions like chickens and bats could solve a lot of pest problems, perhaps your medium article would help me understand but I think you can expect a certain amount of loss and account for it for sure, and you're doing a very conventional set up but I think you could produce more efficiently with hydroponics and have it be just as reliable and more on demand for your location