Part 2/2-The best cruising catamaran for live-aboards?! - Vision Yachts 444 Review

[@Davidm1056]

Wow, you two have lots to learn. You’re young and in time... Keep pushing forward. Thx for showing us the boat.

[@OnANewTack]

I’m thankful anytime someone calls us young! We are both of the mindset that we’ll stop learning when we stop breathing, so hopefully lots to learn. :-)

[@gerritgovaerts8443]

@@OnANewTack Here is lesson 1 . Nice too have all that storage space , just don't abuse it if you care about sailing performance . The 3 biggest enemies of multihull performance are weight , weight and weight !

[@federicorio]

Mike - thank you for the info you provided in Key West last week. We just put our order in!!! Hull #31. Please document as much as possible of the delivery process.

[@OnANewTack]

Thank you, it was great to meet you both as well! We will be documenting as much as possible.

[@jeffwilliams2599]

Awesome video and boat for sure thanks for sharing

[@OnANewTack]

Thanks for watching!

[@FlesHBoX]

If you guys do buy one, I would LOVE to see as much as you can share about the process. Really interested on things like lead time and seeing the build process. Also, have they mentioned the waterline beam of one hull to you?

[@OnANewTack]

If we ever go down that road with any builder, we would absolutely document! What I can tell you is they sold 8 hulls at or soon after the Key West Show. They currently build 4 a year and may be considering expanding capacity due to the response. The build time is 6 months and the next available hull slot is sometime in 2024.

[@FlesHBoX]

@@OnANewTack That is simultaneously awesome for Vision, and a huge bummer for me, lol. If I were to win the lottery tomorrow, I'd have to wait until 2024 for my boat!

[@OnANewTack]

@@FlesHBoX Yes, agreed. However if you really win the lottery, you could probably buy someone's production slot! ;-) Also, we can all cross our fingers that James Turner will increase production. Believe it or not Seawind is in 2026 for just about all models!

[@FlesHBoX]

​@@OnANewTack Indeed! Seawind is doing very well, and hopefully Vision will continue to do really well. We need as cat builders as we can get who don't just cater to one of two extremes (heavy comfort cats targeted at the charter companies, and superlight borderline racing cats that only the hardiest of people would consider living aboard).

[@OnANewTack]

Someone asked via comment (that now is gone) if I was trying to remember PropSpeed, and YES, that is exactly what I was trying to remember, thank you!

[@nauy]

How do you operate the left clutches and crank the winches? They’re out of arms reach when seated or standing on the fold down foot rest and part of the floor at the helm gives way to stairs so you can’t just stand right in front of them. Come to think of it, it’s downright dangerous in rough seas trying to pull in the sheets.

[@OnANewTack]

Thanks for the comment. Foot switches are being added to operate both winches at the helm. Still have to stand, but if you are just adjusting sheets, then the regular buttons seem to be fine. When you are hoisting the mainsail, you end up wanting more free hands, which is why the foot controls are being added.

[@nauy]

@@OnANewTack I’m not sure how installing foot switches is going solve the problem of not having a solid platform to stand on. It’s hard to gauge based on the limited photos and videos - that is why I’m asking. But it sure looks to me the floor at the helm does not extend all the way to the left because the stairs going down to the cockpit takes up some of that space, the exact space where you would need to stand on in order to operate the left side winch and clutches.

[@MichaelPail]

@@nauy it may just look like more of a problem than it actually is. The steps do start in that area, but I’ve been on 444’s multiple times and I don’t remember reaching the clutches being an issue. I can definitely give you an honest answer when we are back in Knysna in August and definitely after we bring ours back across the Atlantic!

[@MichaelPail]

@@nauy Actually, we’ll be up at the Annapolis Show later this month and #6 (Ruby Star) will be in the show and I’ll check and try to shoot some video.

[@nauy]

@@MichaelPail Thank you. I like the Vision 444 a lot. It ticks almost all the right boxes. But I’m a short guy with limited reach. Operating the winch manually would also require reaching a foot beyond the winch itself. I can see myself needing to stand on the line organiser to get close enough to get good leverage. It’d be good to confirm that it is not an issue.

[@ChickenRunner2]

Vision 444 ticks most of the boxes but with the mast height on the short side 65 ft (most cats are in 70 ft range even those in same weight range) I wish that you captured the sailing performance on the instruments on video. I'm presently looking at the Lightwave 45 and Vision 444 but my final decision will be based on best performance, so any input would be appreciated.

[@ChickenRunner2]

any feedback on performance would be appreciated.

[@OnANewTack]

Hi Ted, Thanks for the comments. I would have liked to capture more regarding the instruments, but there were a lot of people on the boat and we were all trying to give each other enough social distance. I have the polar diagram from Vision and posted it on my Blog so you can see it. onanewtack.com/2021/04/vision-444-key-west-boat-show.html The mast is certainly smaller than a lot of other mid-40 footers, however the sail areas are pretty close to that of the Lightwave 45, as is the weight. The Lightwave is a nice boat and I would imagine that when outfitted with the daggerboards it will point 5 degrees or so closer to the wind, so that is a plus. The Polars are close pretty similar and, for me, they are close enough that I would group them together performance-wise and would move on to other aspects I find important. (I guess what I'm saying is that I wouldn't want a tank, but I'm also not going to race and creature comforts would factor in) Have a look at the polars and let me know what you think!

[@OnANewTack]

@Tom Whitby How would someone learn more?

[@MrJhchrist]

Does anybody know the actual bridgedeck clearance? I can't find the spec, and you say it's high enough, but honestly it looks kinda low to me. Good thing it's easily measured with a yardstick so we don't have to rely on people like me just eyeballing it. Presuming someone has measured it during design or IRL and will share?

[@OnANewTack]

I measured this at the show today! I used a dock line, transferred that measurement to my arm. Now that I’m near a tape measure, I can confidently say it was 24” +/- 1”. By eye, it is about the same as a leopard 42 and a little less than a Seawind 1260.

[@adammallerman8153]

This looks like a serious contender in the performance cat market. I'm guessing it's main competitor is going to be Seawind. But the superb Seawind 1370 (45,) is $150,000 cheaper than this boat. Nanni are basically Kabota engines and a lot of parts interchange with Toyota diesel spares so you're right that is a simple engine and easy to source parts in the developed world. In the non developed places you might cruise to the good news is because they're did straightforward they tend to be very forgiving if you have to macgyver a component to keep going until you get to a place with the spares you need. It's a shame you didn't show more of the interior space. When you buy a performance cat as a cruiser there is a compromise with accommodation. Condo cats are wider and give up performance for wider hulls and heavier boats. Knowing where the Vision makes those decisions is important for anyone considering one of these. Personally I wouldn't want to cross oceans in a non performance cat but if you're going to mainly Island hop then you might be more comfortable in a condo cat. And let's face it, we spend a lot more time on the hook or in marinas than we do at sea.

[@OnANewTack]

Hi Adam and thanks for the comment. First, there is an entire 40 minute video we did on the interior, so I’m guessing you must not have watched that one, as it is pretty thorough. Also, the big shocker for us is that we did compare it to the Seawind 1370 and because of how much us standard in the Vision, it is the Vision that is $150k less than the Seawind, if you go to the Seawind website and price one out with all of the items that are standard on the Vision. We were shocked. I will add the Standard Inventory to our blog later today so you can check it out. One big one is that 15KW-hr of Lithium Ion batteries are standard! Please check out Part 1 of the video and let us know your thoughts!!

[@OnANewTack]

Hi Adam. I just finished updating the Blog Post to include the Standard Inventory. Please check it out and let me know if you have any questions. onanewtack.blogspot.com/2021/04/vision-444-key-west-boat-show.html Mike

[@gerritgovaerts8443]

That superb Seawind 1370 is a "lead sled" at 11 tons of light displacement . Don't take my word for it but download this pdf on multihull performance analysis : www.multihulldynamics.com/images/analysis2011/CHM%20Analysis%20and%20Comparisons%20of%20CRUS%20MULTHULLS2013.pdf Then scroll down to page 15 where there is a paragraph on "S Number" . I calculated it as 1.839 for the 1370 and this falls in the category "Lead Sled" as per this quote from mentionned paragraph : " The S Number is a formula that assesses relative performance of sailing yachts, giving values that range from 1 to 10, with sub-ranges of these values assigned to Racing Machines (5-10), Racer-Cruisers (3-5), Cruisers (2-3) and Lead Sleds (1-2). "

[@OnANewTack]

Thanks Gerrit; the engineer in my can't wait to read the article! I'm surprised to hear that about the 1370 did so poorly, but honestly I only know the basics about that boat. Based on that classification, maybe it's meant for high-altitude performance. ;-)

[@gerritgovaerts8443]

@@OnANewTack I honestly was not surprised coz 11 tons is a lot for a 45 ft cat . It's less than your standard Lagoon , FP or Leopard of the same size , but still nothing to write home about . I do not understand people calling the 1370 a performance cat . I have a spreadsheet of performance data (sorted high to low) describing more than 50 cat models and the 1370 is at the bottom of it .

[@BuzzSargent]

What does this boat cost?

[@OnANewTack]

As of today, base price is $823K. While there are a number of configuration choices and upgrades, this price gets you a boat that is very far from bare-bones.

[@gerritgovaerts8443]

Both the Standard Jib and the Mainsail are too small . Performance indices would be a lot better (and definitely better than a 1370) with a bigger sail plan . It really is very conservatively rigged. I suggest you ask them for an option for a more performance oriented rig . At 9 tons light displacement , this cat deserves better. It's definitely wide enough for its length (56%) to handle it (enough righting moment)

[@OnANewTack]

Funny, I was going though that document you sent me and I realized the same thing. The headsail felt really small when we were on it, but not sure what could be done with that to keep it self tacking except by going higher. But like you said, seems like there is plenty of righting moment to be able to do that, and then both sails increase in area.

[@gerritgovaerts8443]

@@OnANewTack An Outremer 4X at 48 ft is both narrower and lighter (less righting moment ) but carries 124 square meters of total sail plan while this one barely 96 . Like I said , very conservately rigged . Think about it this way : you can never make a fast cat out of an underpowered one , but you can always slow down an overpowered cat by reefing

[@gerritgovaerts8443]

@@OnANewTack Going higher gives you an extra benefit of the wind speed gradient . Higher up wind speeds are always higher as they are further removed from the stationary (zero speed) boundary layer with the surface . This will result in higher than expected thrust just based on extra square feet

[@rumbepack]

It would be perfect if it had daggerboards.

[@andersonautomotive]

We met Mike & Sue after their Atlantic crossing in their new boat. They knocked down 1065 miles in 5 days. I think the boat did just fine with mini keels.

[@OnANewTack]

Thanks for the comment! Yes, daggerboards would definitely reduce leeway and allow us to point a little closer to the wind. Sue and I specifically were searching for a catamaran without daggerboards just to simplify, but we can certainly understand the want for every last bit of performance.

[@OnANewTack]

Hi John, thanks for the comment! Yes, for us, the compromise has been well worth it to reduce complexity and also to get maximum interior space (those daggerboard cases take up a good amount of room in the hulls). Getting the performance we do with a 3'9" draft and a 63.5' mast opens up a lot of close-in anchor spots as well as ICW access when we need it. Looking forward to seeing you and Tina again soon!

[@caferturker4224]

My god, you spent to a few minutes intruduce us a fucking table? Mannnnn.

[@OnANewTack]

Good thing there are only two tables, am I right?!