Part One: Thomas Jefferson: King of Hypocrites | BEHIND THE BASTARDS

[@BrandonPilcher]

Two things I learned about Thomas Jefferson thanks to this podcast today: 1. He had a proprietary “Black best friend”. 2. He was a fan of the Roman politician who would habitually end his speeches by saying “Carthage must be destroyed”.

[@Ceruleansquid-lo3iv]

Carthago delenda est!

[@Spencerdoken]

Spoilers

[@harkonen1000000]

Ironically, USA only ratified the Genocide Convention because a senator kept doing that for a few decades with regard to ratifying the Genocide Convention.

[@workshoptelescope]

Prop, stop answering the phone when Sophie calls. It’s a pattern.

[@patricksinger357]

One thing that fascinated me about Cato's work "De Agricultura" is that he goes on about how farming makes men good soldiers and builds moral character and so on, and you sort of imagine this heroic, self-sufficient plowman living close to the land. Then you get to his actual advice, and it's like, "OK, so first you need to get some slaves..."

[@ericwiddison7523]

I visited Stone Mountain in Georgia earlier this year. In one area they had some inspirational quotes from Southern leaders, including this one from Jefferson: "Those who labor in the earth are the chosen people of God, if he ever had a chosen people, whose breasts he has made his peculiar deposit for substantial and genuine virtue." I'm sure that Jefferson, who saw himself as a farmer believed that this included him. I have no idea if he believed that his slaves, who actually labored in the earth, could be receptacles of virtue.

[@franzfanz]

It very much sounds like there's a war between rationalism and romanticism in his personal ideology that he never quite resolves. On the one hand, he wants to create this new utopia where all men are equal and the bonds of the Old World are broken. Yet he idealises a way of life that is positively medieval in nature and can't exist without the bondage of the world that he claims to reject.

[@BlindErephon]

Cato is one of the brightest stars in the Roman constellation of shitty bastards.

[@Bushipunk]

When you look at the labour practices of modern agriculture, versus how the "farmers" (landowners) present themselves, not much has changed...

[@RooneyMac]

Hey Robert? Or Sophie, or whoever at Cool Zone, maybe have the Leonard Peltier links in the description or pinned comment?

[@paigekutz8539]

That would be great please !

[@maggymeadd]

i would also like a link!!

[@LikeTheBuffalo]

Free Leonard Peltier

[@sp-og9xy]

"Anger is a gift"

[@ricksimon9867]

As a European, I am torn. Obviously this man should be free, but within the American system that regularly violates the 8th Amendment, what happened to him does not stand out among literally hundreds of thousands of Americans who have spent much more time in jail than was just. _

[@nunyabidnis3815]

​@@ricksimon9867 Helping Leonard or any other unjust imprisonment certainly wouldn't preclude helping others; it would help set a precedent, as well as free them to speak on their experience. (Hence why it's so difficult.. the state stands to effectively give a green light to embarrass itself, while giving freedom and notoriety to the person they wrong. In a more just system, the state should welcome reform both of prisoners and itself, but if it were a more just system, Mr. Peltier wouldn't still be in a FL prison.)

[@ricksimon9867]

@@nunyabidnis3815 You are the state. Any population that does not understand that is doomed to fail.

[@ricksimon9867]

@@nunyabidnis3815 You are the state. If you cannot understand that, your society will fail.

[@avocahdo2269]

Thomas Jefferson on Behind the Bastards? Lets fucking go!

[@LonelyKnightess]

Omg I literally clicked the thumbnail and said "TOMMY J BTB LESS GOOOO" and was still midway cheering when I read this comment.

[@liesalllies]

LOL ME TOO fuck I need to go out and find an original thought 😭

[@Morvelaira]

The ERB of Thomas Jefferson vs Frederick Douglass said it best about Jefferson in one line, I believe. "You let freedom ring, but never picked up the phone!"

[@woodlandmac]

Appreciate the leonard peltier shoutout at the beginning ❤

[@michaelbell1155]

Prop is my favorite guest he always has the best stories that are specifically relevent

[@Colonel_Bat_Guano]

It's crazy how I have the opposite opinion lol

[@TeagueChrystie]

Also have the opposite opinion. I'm pretty bummed we're wasting the Jefferson episodes on Prop. He seems like a nice guy and all.

[@Colonel_Bat_Guano]

@@TeagueChrystie yeah all the guests seem like nice, good people. I think it's super odd though that the podcast about the world's worst people is like a fun place to hang out and crack jokes lmao.

[@tristanfinnberg4607]

I can't stand Prop. His stories are fine, but most of his commentary is repeating what Robert just said for another 2 or 3 minutes. I used to try skipping when I could tell he was just summarizing, but now I put down the episode at a certain point.

[@Colonel_Bat_Guano]

@@tristanfinnberg4607 same bud

[@willogsdon7092]

Robert's nervous laugh when prop gently calls them out for only having the hood politics guy on for racism stuff was worth the price of admission alone.

[@SgtKaneGunlock]

not sure if it makes it beter but he has matt leib on for the real bad nazi ones (matt leib is jewish if you didn't already know that)

[@zachthompson9976]

Right! 😅 Prop is so right too! I never noticed it before

[@navidamlani1616]

Is troo

[@LusyPicker-sm6su]

As true as his observation is, a lot of BTB's content is about racism. That said, maybe Prop should be brought in for the heart warming, X-Mas episode. He's earned it.

[@Chaosqueenngami]

Well to me it does make sense. Prop is really knowledgeable about black history so he always adds a lot to the racism episodes. If BtB doesn’t get a black person perspective on racism then it’s just a bunch of white people taking about other races experiences which kind of what Jefferson and his ilk were doing.

[@werwolfnate]

"You have a self evident truth of your own, you let freedom ring but never picked up the phone."

[@greyspeight8776]

Just when I was looking for something to watch I see this was uploaded less than ten seconds ago. Awesome.

[@smileyp4535]

23:14 like wow imagine being that kid, literally raised to be someone else's personal assistant, you have no agency whatsoever, literally from birth your life belongs to someone else. And he doesn't even remember you... Slavery is such an unforgivably vile and evil construction and I can't believe we still have the remnants of this system to this day. Humanity is just a huge wast of potential

[@gwynbleidd1917]

The 13th amendment allows slavery of imprisoned people. So not just remnants. Prisoners in the US are often forced into slave labor where they make literal pennies a day, which is used as an excuse to claim it isn't slave labor, but it is.

[@spectreandromedus8661]

A buddy of mine's mom was at Wounded Knee '73. A cop screwed her knees up real bad. Alotta good folk were killed and injured there. Free Leonard Peltier and clear the names of those who stood with him. Accountability for the brutality shown to those that resisted there

[@e-naa4118]

My parents house has a name simply because it's so in the middle of nowhere it didn't even have an actual address until 2018

[@CowboyJuice]

im sorry but "hey look, i got you a black dude" "oh yay thanks Christmas!" is the funniest line delivery ive heard in a long time.

[@everfluctuating]

#FreeLeonardPeltier

[@everfluctuating]

id post the url and phone number but youtube did not like that. would help if the channel made it a pinned comment or added it to the description

[@nicolasnamed]

I do not understand the people who don't like Prop, he's a delight and I feel like he does a great job at filling in the perspective. I think it's very important to have a black, educated viewpoint present when looking back at early America.

[@sanayatau]

About his friend's funeral... focusing on something else other than the fact that his friend is being buried is a pretty common grief response.

[@a.gravemistake3061]

The most disappointing thing about the civil war is how many confederate leaders were allowed to live

[@gwynbleidd1917]

And one of the most disappointing things about the end of ww2 (aside from the US using nuclear bombs on two civilian populations) was that too many nazis were allowed to live.

[@jacobmartin1100]

There is a rich irony in aristocrats always being in debt yet continuing to act like they're hot shit.

[@aloden500]

Given the tendency for billionaires like trump and musk to not pay their debts I guess the bourgeoisie never changes.

[@scragar]

RE: 30th of February The USA moved to the Gregorian calendar when he was 9, and that switchover was a mess. Prior to the switch February had whatever number of days the leader of the church said it did, including at one point in history 32. The reasoning being that the seasons drifted because the calendar was inexact, but no one ever knew how much by, so they added/removed days from the last month of the year(the Julian calendar switched at the Ides of March) to try to line it up as best as they thought(usually based on the date of the coldest day of the year). The kids probably weren't as dumb as you make them sound simply because the days in a year weren't consistent or predictable prior to the switch. If someone told you this year there'll be a few extra days in February people just sort of accepted that was what would happen because there was no other way to know other than being told by an authority figure.

[@paulkienitz]

Now I understand what the Cato Institute is really about.

[@ryanatkinson2978]

I respect Robert's addiction to kratom, especially because I was addicted for 5 years lmao. But I'm happy to say I've been off it for 30 days and I feel a lot better!

[@scottrobinson6682]

Looking up Leonard now. Jefferson. Oof, let's do it. Love this 'channel'.

[@peacecorenathan556]

We got the indoor kid of early America on the pod? Letsgoooooooo

[@DiMethylMercuryKSP]

Oh Boy a new BTB dropped.

[@BlindErephon]

Hell yeah we draggin Jefferson?! About time.

[@philipripper1522]

Isn't it kind of lowkey bad to only have Prop on for racism related episodes? He's a really fantastic guest and hope he gets to talk on some other things tool

[@nathanjasper512]

Horrible acts of racism are like at least 50% of all Behind the bastards episodes. If you take away that and child abuse this show would be bi-yearly.

[@CliffSedge-nu5fv]

​@@nathanjasper512 99% of BtB episodes are Nazis + Ronald Reagan.

[@Lewbee]

He was also on the Spanish Civil war episodes

[@KS-PNW]

He did one of the ancient Roman ones too

[@Colonel_Bat_Guano]

Honestly I tend to turn off any episode he's on. He just constantly interrupts with vaguely relevant ramblings dude

[@NichelleSullivan]

The irony of naming an enslaved person Jupiter, king of the gods.

[@lildeek12GFL]

Slavery is bad.

[@williamkarbala5718]

Respectfully agree

[@Payne-s8n]

bold take

[@Peacekeepa317]

Mmkay

[@rodneysmith873]

Are you sure? Maybe we could give it another try but like, get it right this time.

[@emceeunderdogrising]

So brave. So rare these days.

[@SavageGreywolf]

I have a degree in Poli sci and one of my professors in my American Political Thought class spent like two whole lectures being an apologist for Jefferson's bastardry. I'm not saying there's no nuance to be had, but even then I was like... It's possible for us to acknowledge the man as a genius and critically important to our conception of human rights and liberty... and ALSO to acknowledge that he was a giant turd who didn't practice what he preached. Those can both be true.

[@HappyFaceSticker]

38:34 More fun facts about Romans. When Rome was on the rise, in order to be a Centurion, you NEEDED to own land, so you would presumably fight for it. But when Rome peaked, all the land was owned by 2000 dudes, and that was the end of the centurions.

[@redjirachi1]

"Behind the Bastards: Thomas Jefferson" *We're in the endgame now, tinky winky*

[@smileyp4535]

Cam we get the "free Leonard Peltier" thing in a pinned comment or link if it's still valid? That sounds absolutely fucked up and I am glad you're bringing it to my attention but without a link of some kind it will be difficult for as many people as possible to help

[@vcg7790]

36:26 there’s a word for that, descending from the same word as weeb: Romaboo

[@darrens3]

15:00 ironically most houses in the UK even the poorest had a name rather than a number. As it was before epostal numbers came in. It continued even after the introduction of numbers where houses, flats, and even buildings had names and numbers. From the smallest house to the tallest tower.

[@AzaleaJane]

Never clicked on a thumbnail so fast, let's goooo

[@leowilliamson1573]

Weeb actually stems from the term "weeaboo," which comes from an old Perry Bible Fellowship comic where a presenter in a board meeting says the company will go under if they keep doing weeaboo, only for everyone to be like, "Oh, I think somebody said weeaboo!" They all pull out cricket bats and begin getting in line to paddle him while chanting "Weeaboo! Weeaboo!" The term gained prominence in forum culture and eventually shortened to weeb because of the tendency for bringing up anime to derail conversations as everyone who hated anime had to talk about how much they hated anime.

[@casspurp]

It's shortened to "weeb" to make it closer to the original insult, "Wapanese." The "wee" stands for "white" in that instance.

[@leowilliamson1573]

@@casspurp Yeah, that's probably part of it and would explain why the shortened 'weeb' still has only that connotation, but weeaboo was where it stemmed from, which you can tell by the b in it. You see the same term for other groups like wehraboos, teaboos, freeaboos, and other such.

[@Bushipunk]

I wonder if Robert has ever read "The Winding Stair", a biography of Francis Bacon by Daphne DuMaurier. It's a fascinating book - clearly intended as a hagiography, but actually damning of Bacon in effect (although I'm not certain it qualifies him as a full-on Bastard). But the discussion of Jefferson's hypocrisy and his preferences for... Younger women, let's say, particularly reminded me of it.

[@nicojan]

Can you link to the sources you used for that series?

[@Cmdrbike]

Living in Charlottesville it pains me to hear all the mispronounced words related to Virginia. I understand if the response is f*** off, but just in case... Its Mon-ti-chello, Al-ba-marle, and Stan-ton (it was intentionally mispronounced during the revolutionary war to weed out spies.

[@NotoriousLightning]

When you gonna lie, keep your facts straight. Charlottesville is actually in Montana, not Virginia, and if you lived there, it's safe to say you would know. Thanks for trying, little child.

[@Cmdrbike]

Wtf are you talking about? I hope for your sake that you are just trolling.

[@NotoriousLightning]

@@Cmdrbike Yeah, got ya pretty gooood.

[@JeepnHeel]

As a Virginian myself, I can confirm all of these pronunciations. You forgot to add that it's also a hard "CH" (not "SH") in Charlottesville (like "Char" and "Chief")

[@deemaee]

Imperial Courts Watts, CA lol represent!

[@Ceruleansquid-lo3iv]

I'm glad to hear about good (awful) old Thomas Jefferson and the not at all hypocritical remarks he made

[@ReclaimedDasein]

Alright. Let's go.

[@celestialsalamander]

13:30 what is a "potentate"? edit: potentate noun: a monarch or ruler, especially an autocratic one. I had not expected automated subtitles to have the right spelling.

[@Chaosqueenngami]

Maybe it’s just because I’m a product of modernity but I couldn’t imagine owning a human being and not cringing of the thought of it every second.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

not modernity. they knew it was wrong then as well. they just didn't care because it benefitted them. slavers wrote about how it was morally wrong in their journals and abolitionists have been around since slavery began

[@ferlessleedr]

Jefferson responding to his friend's death by calculating the man hours required to dig a grave and extrapolating it really sounds like a very neurodivergent response. In his grief he retreated too hyper focus, he focused on one weird thing and simply couldn't bring himself think of anything else. It's not weird, it's not the wrong way to grieve, it's incredibly understandable. He found something that had numbers in it and went a little ham on it. I have done that many times. Grief does weird things to people.

[@sholem_bond]

As an ND person we don't claim him

[@Zoroasterisk]

@@sholem_bond I am sure he's crushed.

[@sholem_bond]

​@@Zoroasterisk sorry for insulting your emotional support Founding Father (in the comments section of this BtB episode about him) I guess?

[@Zoroasterisk]

@@sholem_bond yep. Big slave rape stan, like most BtB listeners. Get over yourself

[@alexanon8345]

​@@sholem_bondshitty people are nd all the time man, it's understandable to be upset and want it to be untrue but Jefferson sounds extremely not-neurotypical soooo

[@smileyp4535]

17:40 8/10 is really impressive, not because she raised them tho obviously because the slaves did that but she definitely carried to term and birthed the kids regardless of what happened after that part, that's a feat for sure

[@cassiemoyles4177]

PROP YES

[@captainoftheneverdie21]

And Prop is on this set of episodes? Its Christmas in June

[@billmozart7288]

I'm still hoping for a James Madison episode

[@tyrannoseahorse_rex]

Dabny had a fast horse, Tommy had a dad who paid all their bills

[@shadymerchant1198]

One thing to keep in mind about the taxation was that these colonies existed to extract wealth and return it to England they did not exist to become wealthy themselves, England banned most coinage in the colonies to prevent wealth from accumulating so the colonial elite tended to be those who had lots of physical assets like land When England instituted taxes it was demanding coins the colonials simply didn't have another reason many felt the taxes were unfair

[@casspurp]

That's not true. The colonies were founded by land speculators who expected to, and went on the voyages, to get rich. Read Dunbar-Ortiz's Indigenous People's History of the US for a starting point on the actual colonial history.

[@shadymerchant1198]

@@casspurp expecting to get rich and actually getting rich are different things, british colonial policy was extraction to the homeland, raw materials were grown or extracted from the colonies sold to England who then processed them into refined goods and then sold them for even more to the colonies, the result being a net drain on the wealth on the colonials, it's part why people like Jefferson were in crushing amounts of debt, they were rich in land and assets but not in liquidity Many of the "taxes" weren't real taxes but rather market exclusively French dutch and Spanish traders extensively traded with the colonies often for better prices and fairer deals then the british so the british banned anyone except british traders in the colonies

[@donkeyfly43]

27:00 Jupiter I am willing to bet he had some kind of shameful homosexual encounter with Jupiter which is why, for such a prolific writer, there is no mention about Jupiter anywhere; he wanted to erase this person from history.

[@nicolasnamed]

Didn't consider that but also wouldn't shock me

[@kms4124]

I wonder if they are going to talk about the breeding farms...

[@ho-hyongyoo3251]

Hmm interesting

[@matthewfurnari-omara2079]

Did someone say yeoman farmer? Alert Matt Christman.

[@thatcanuck5670]

RIP Cato you'd have loved gamergate

[@joemorris4896]

Ah yes. Thomas Jefferson. The Genghis Khan of Black Americans.

[@Melggart]

I think the greatest difference between a citizen soldier and slave master aristocracy warrior is resilience in a societal level. I like to compare the Roman Republic and Sparta. The republic bounced back from atrocious defeats and losses, best exemplified by the Second Punic War, as the populace railed for a long fight, and that seem to have been the real roman superpower. While the Spartans where probably the best warriors, they lived in fear of defeat, as the moment their army was gone their slaves would revolt and end them.

[@TheJudoJoker]

We can all agree that the worst part is the hypocrisy.

[@colonelweird]

Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, and Bayard Rustin was a fervent supporter of zionism. It's strange how common it is for people with great ideas to be unaware of their full implications.

[@TitaniaBird]

(to the tune of "What Did I Miss?" for maximum appropriateness) 🎶Thomas Jefferson's getting owned Thomas Jefferson's getting owned Thomas Jefferson's getting owned Lord, he has deserved it for so long...

[@Musamecanica]

As an immigrant in the US who has no representation, I really wish I could pull the independence card on the IRS: I'll pay taxes when I can vote.

[@marocat4749]

o tommy,

[@whoabuddy1772]

His friend died and he buried himself in work. This is not an uncommon coping mechanism. When my mother died at the age of 13, my grades went up. It's a distraction and allows one to process things at their own pace. I understand the appearance of being crass, but it shouldn't be interpreted as uncaring.

[@babadabdianogo]

When are the Ché Guevara episodes dropping?

[@michaelbuehler3897]

good question

I knew some of it, but I bet it's a lot worse

[@Sadiqi]

Behind the Bastards should know this... and should have spent some time talking about this. They were not SLAVES. They were ENSLAVED. Properly ENSLAVED AFRICANS. The condition of slavery does not define their existence on this earth. These were mothers and fathers and daughters and sons and cousins and all the other ways we label family. These were people who endored one of the longest periods of torture and pain in human hustory. These are mostly unknown people that were free the day they graced this planet and overcame a literal horror. They deserve more of our respect than be called "slaves".

[@scotts9691]

Kind of a pointless quibble about semantics bud

[@VooshSpokesman]

Love from a Xanderhal and Vaush fan!

[@Reed5016]

Did they send you here?

[@nicolasnamed]

@VooshSpokesman I say this with all the kindness and love in my heart as a former Vaush viewer who is sympathetic to but critical to him: Please go do something more productive. Vaush cooked his career. It's over. Watch him if you will, but stanning him will get you nowhere.

[@Reed5016]

@@nicolasnamed Agreed.

[@jeremyirving6482]

FYI Farmers were not the backbone of the Roman military, professional soldiers were. Other than that, great episode.

[@MrGksarathy]

Those professional soldiers were traditionally citizen soldiers.

[@harkonen1000000]

Cato the Elder was active during the age of manipular legions before Marian reforms professionalized the legions.

[@Shadowman4710]

Depends on the period of the Republic you're talking about. By the time of Marius and the Civil Wars, no-the Roman army was professional and largely made up of poor men who couldn't find better work.

[@BlindErephon]

Literally untrue at the time of Cato the Elder, in fact the senate kept the lower landowning\farming classes as eligible for soldiery in order to be able to buy their land for cheap. After a few years of having your main source of labor away on campaign, your fields are overgrown and fallow, so assuming they come back from the war you probably have to sell your land and move to a city. The wealthier classes would then buy the land for below its value, and work it with slaves. The Marian reforms curbed this (urban poor don't have land to steal), its part of why they were so politically controversial in Rome at the time.

[@ricksimon9867]

45:25 - There is nothing wrong with a 20yo dating a 16yo, especially since girls are on average two years more mature than guys. This is no age difference even worth mentioning, much less "dating a much younger girl." You make it sound as if she was 14 (or a very immature 16 which of course exists).

[@MoparSmith1]

This chanel makes fun of all my heroes, how do you do it? Probably make fun of Thomas Sowell next lol.

[@GuerillaBunny]

There's an economist who digs into Sowell. His channel is called Unlearning Economics. Less snark, but a lot of criticisms.

[@sebastian3742]

Oh hey it's another prop interrupts and talks about himself incessantly episode. Great.

[@codygunter4379]

I cant stand this guest

[@fenrirunshackled4319]

Does anyone else get completely turned off by prop episodes? I get wanting to have a black guest on the thomas jefferson episode. There are lots of funny black people, there are lots of articulate black people, there are lots of funny AND articulate black people. So why couldn't the guest be at least funny or articulate?

[@BikemanSuperfast]

He's alright, he puts what Robert says into less/simpler words

[@NiamhKeoghan]

I think he's good! He's not cracking wise every minute but he's articulate and intelligent

[@sallyd3700]

Um, he’s both? No, I look forward to him being on but found it very interesting he called both Sophie and Robert out on only being on for slavery lost cause episodes. He was great on the Robert E Lee episodes. I also listen to Prop’s Pod Cast.

[@coagulatedguy1421]

Lmao you’re just racist

[@ZapRowsdower-tq2qg]

prop can say so many words without actually saying anything

[@caladanrude6395]

It's a prop episode. I'm out.

[@ryri51]

About Jefferson burning the letters of his wife. Burning of all correspondence from a deceased person after their death was a very common practice for a long time. The same thing happened to Emily Dickinson.