Part Two: That Time Britain Did A Genocide in Ireland | BEHIND THE BASTARDS

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Part Two: That Time Britain Did A Genocide in Ireland | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
Robert is joined again by Prop to for two of three on the Great Hunger.
Original Air Date: April 14, 2022
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There’s a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries about Hitler but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower. Bad guys (and gals) are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards dives in past the Cliffs Notes of the worst humans in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives. Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater’s insane quest to build his own Air Force, the bizarre lives of the sons and daughters of dictators and Saddam Hussein’s side career as a trashy romance novelist.
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[@fett01]

Solve a problem easily by rent forgiveness but people oppose it? People never change.

[@ZBott]

Malthusian economics and the Irish famine was the core of the MCU Thanos idea. So the Avengers were fighting 18th century Britain, which is fair.

[@johnmckiernan2176]

The British secondary (high) school curriculum still teaches that the starvation in Ireland was caused by "overpopulation", a straight Malthusian lie. Ireland had nearly precisely the population density of England.

[@ZBott]

@@johnmckiernan2176 That is the second worse thing I've learned about the British education system this week. And both were through this podcast.

[@johnmckiernan2176]

@@ZBott I just re-did the sums. England had 113 people per square kilometre in 1841, Ireland 111. Wales and Scotland were largely empty. No school textbook claims that England was "overpopulated" in 1841, and it has 3.5 times the population today, while Ireland has about 60% of the 1841 population today.

[@domantasl]

There's a song by the band Primordial, called The Coffin Ships. It's an amazing song with a gripping chorus: "It feels like I've been here before Here, where the animals lay down to die So we stood, alone on a distant shore Broken spirits, in rags and tatters" It's about this period of Irish history and it paints a devastatingly bleak picture. Can't recommend it enough.

[@ilessthan3bees]

At the risk of teaching Robert a new meme, most of Prop's comments this episode are the "my brother in christ, you made the sandwich" meme. And just to be clear, that's a good thing. It's the best meme.

[@fives.]

It's a least the most wholesome-yet-wild meme given the subject matter lol

[@templarw20]

22:02 Which is funny, given that Smith was a voice of Scottish independence and he was basically saying "we'd be better off if the English left us the fuck alone."

[@corinnapetry65]

Prop's reactions and analysis and connections-making are so wonderful. I love this podcast to the moon and back.

[@ViolentOrchid]

It's really unfortunate they didn't have American indigenous people in Ireland to teach them about nixtamalation. You could easily have made alkaline ash and used that to make the corn digestible and more nutritional.

[@tzuky1861]

Like the English gave a shit about what "uncivilised savages" had to teach them. 😂 On that note, can't remember if they mention it here, but people like the Choctaws, who had only just been displaced from their own lands, sent thousands of dollars in aid relief over to Ireland during the famine. They remain some of my favourite people's and one of the only reasons I would visit the States today.

[@myname3931]

'Bawbag' is very much Scottish rather than Irish slang (though may still be used in Ireland, particularly Northern Ireland, where the dialect has a lot of crossover with Scottish).

[@tzuky1861]

It's very common in the North. Probably because of the Scots settler connection.

[@MySerpentine]

I'm in the odd situation of both my parents being half Irish, so I'm half Irish without it being from either side in particular. I remember my mom singing bits of "Skibbereen" when she did the dishes. (It's the first version of the song I ever heard, so no recorded version sounds right. Same with my dad singing Woody Guthrie songs.) Hell of a song.

[@dduuddeechil]

Appreciate the LB shoutout Prop!!

[@daniellundberg2875]

The thing with statistics is that it's not useful for individual cases, but if you have 20 000 people, and you're building a schools for them, the 2.5 kids thing is useful, because if you build school for 40 000 kids, not everyone gets to go, and if you build it for 60 000 kids, you get empty seats.

[@chris999999999999]

Don't go letting your British friends get away with the idea that their metric spelling (colour, harbour, theatre, centre, programme, etc) are somehow the "right" versions compared to the degenerate American ones. All that (and dropping their 'r') is affectation they adopted after the American Revolution when they wanted to emulate the French in order to feel more fancy.

[@mattshriner4897]

Colour and Harbour were changed to color and harbor by American type setters to fit more words per page.

[@KaiTenSatsuma]

23:00 - Funny thing is even as Adam Smith wrote about the Free Market the British Empire was doing the exact opposite with, like. The Serfdom and East India Trading Company and shit. That's just slavery and corporatism, that isn't free trade at all. I don't know if Adam Smith ever had seen a free market in his time, at best you had the Silk Road shit.

[@miramavensub]

The way they describe Belfast is so much like Philly (& the metro broadly) it's erie 🤣🤣🤣. I mean this in the best way possible BTW, but like; so similar it's kinda scary 😅. The fact that their histories are really similar and intrinsically intertwined probably has a LOT to do with it. Entirely related I'd love to do a May 15th script on the MOVE bombing or a mini-series on Philadelphia, "The Society," the city history, and all of the events involved in making it what it is today. It'd be an episode as dark as pretty much any dictator episode: it even includes actual war crimes, jailing the victims of war crimes, committing war crimes over a noise complaint, and burning children alive... And that's just the ONE incident.

[@ReclaimedDasein]

YOUR RIGHT FOR NOW

[@ViolentOrchid]

Is this what "Jimmy crack corn and I don't care" is about, the "Indian" corn?

[@GilTheDragon]

The u in stuff as colour is to French it, it is in fact a more modern less authentic spelling

[@MrGksarathy]

Honestly, both originated around the same time, and neither are original or derivative because English spelling wasn't exactly standardized.

[@justinwatson1510]

Does racism require intentionality?

[@philipripper1522]

they treat food-store-potatoes with a chemical agent that reduces sprouting so they last longer on the shelf. that's why they don't make the best seed potatoes.

[@commandantcarpenter]

profifop!

[@LunaLasceria]

Prop's unhinged rant at the end against economic models and the concept of averages in general was... very weird... and seemed to vaguely imply that all economists are idiots or evil or something. Sooo... that was uncomfortable to listen to. Other than that, great episode.

[@kingalphawerewolf]

I mean they usually are. I ain't found economist that doesn't excuse some made man horror as "just how the world work, I mean you like money/comforts right?" Just a range of *how much* terribleness they'll excuse.

[@MrGksarathy]

​@@kingalphawerewolfThis is part of why we of the left can't win...we can't reject economic models and theories out of hand.

[@CaptainHat]

So the characterisation of the corn laws isn't 100% accurate; the point made about being protectionist about British farming and the problems it casued is valid, but if you're going to try to make the argument to someone who has studied the history they might try to disagree by nitpicking. It doesn't change anything substantive about te logic of the situation really, but a chud might use the mistakes that are made as a "gotcha." In the spirit of educating ourselves to make the argument better then: The Corn Laws were designed to protect British farming, for a variety of reasons including (ostensibly) strategic military independence- the idea that the UK could survive a blockade (or a situation where nobody wanted to trade with us) for longer if we had an active farming sector. To that end, the Corn Laws made it illegal to import corn into any part of the UK (which included Ireland) unless the price of corn went above a certain threshold, which was set arbitrarily high. Because the UK as determined for the purposes of the Corn Laws included Ireland, and the value of corn in the UK (including Ireland) never reached the arbitrarily-high limit, it was never possible to legally import corn into Ireland while the Corn Laws were in effect. This is of course blatant trade protectionism and runs directly contrary to the idea of laissez-faire capitalism and the free market that the British Government at the time claimed to espouse, but I can't recall a time when hypocrisy has ever prevented the British Government from doing anything, so you know, whatever.

[@glove_flavored]

Well said

[@johnmckiernan2176]

This is all academic. The basic point is that the government protected economic interests of their own class and to do so allowed 1 in 24 of their fellows in the UK to die of starvation in less than 5 years. These were ostensibly their countrymen, as Ireland was not just part of the UK for the purposes of the Corn Laws, it was a full member of the Union, with over 100 constituencies represented at Westminster. It was within Westminster's power to organise purely charitable aid - free food - but instead they imported corn and sold it at market rates and made starving people do public works to earn their food, public works that included roads to nowhere. Many such people, already weakened, simply collapsed and died. It was all egregious cruelty in the name of capitalist enterprise. These same people - rural Irish Catholics - as mentioned in the video, had been prohibited by the Penal Laws to acquire an education, practice a number of trades, including law, own large plots of land acquired through primogeniture, own ships or boats or even horses above a certain worth, stand for any public office etc. etc. until two decades earlier. They were woefully under-skilled as a class, and many, perhaps most, were monoglot Gaelic speakers, meaning other professions in English-speaking urban areas were also impractical. Denying a whole ethnic population the means to be productive and then condemning them to death as idlers due to their lack of productivity, all in the name of commerce - now *that's* hypocrisy. Especially when most of the productive land in the country was plainly stolen by an English (by the time of the starvation Anglo-Irish ) protestant elite at the end of the Wars of the Three Kingdoms - simply confiscated by Cromwellian troops in lieu of pay. A people without skills, resources and capital, and all due to political decisions and laws coined in Westminster, allowed to die for not being cogs in the capitalist machine. And then condemned morally for lacking the means to ensure their own survival. Classy.

[@dirtbagdeacon]

@@johnmckiernan2176 Exactly. And damned if many Americans don't act the same way about their fellow hungry, homeless, or impoverished fellow countryfolk, that their failings are moral rather than a product of concerted efforts by landlords and business owners, and policies created by said landlords and business owners thanks to Congressional lobbying and campaign donations.

[@cthulhluftagn3812]

ENGLISH FACT TIME! The english written by americans is closer to the original version spoken at the time of colonization. The new letters added to various british words came much later when rich twats descided that the langudge needed to look "more like latin!"

[@cthulhluftagn3812]

So, when your brain begins to slowly melt at the sheer nightmare that is how we spell things here, blame the rich.

[@CaptainHat]

Kinda, but there are also quite a lot of cases where it's just a product of the word's etymology. Also worth noting, the reason "Chichester" is used in lieu of both a surname and a given name for Lord Chichester is that it's the name of the place he's Lord of and thus can basically be used to refer to him in more or less all contexts (as long as it's clear you're referring o the person, not the place). In the same vein, you could refer to Prince Harry as "Sussex" or to Prince William as "Cornwall" if you wanted to.

[@RaunienTheFirst]

That might be true in certain contexts, but it's mostly a product of having French words forced upon us by the Norman invasion. That's why there's things like U's that don't seem to do anything and "re" pronounced as "er". The difference with American spellings comes from an attempt at simplifying spelling in the US that was only partially successful. The silent K in words like Knight and Knee comes from the German roots of English. Way back when, that K would be pronounced. Similarly with silent P and words from Greek. German is perfectly happy to pronounce the P in "psychology" and "pneumatic" but for some reason English doesn't like having a PS or PN sound at the start of a word.

[@cthulhluftagn3812]

@@RaunienTheFirst i said "at the time of colonization" the norman conquest was several hundrwd years before that. But it is true that english has always been a insane mix of every other language

[@justinbremer2281]

My uncle has 2 biological kids and 1 adopted (who's my aunt's from a prior relationship). Does that count as "2.5 kids"?

[@notinspectorgadget]

No.

[@impulse255dj]

0:18 Northern Irish fella here. Good effort, 9/10. I must admit "ball bag" one of my faves... A classic insult off my people, can be used offensively ("Why don't you look where you're going, ya ball bag!") or amongst friends ("Ach, haven't seen you in ages. How's it going, ya ball bag?") ... But for that authentic, 'Norn Iron' sound you want to pronounce more like "baww beg". 😄

[@EmmaBonn96]

I remember Malthus and Burke being brought up in Philosophy Tube’s video on Darwin and Marx I should revisit that

[@bradvine4564]

You can easily meet "ethnically British" people more in Canada if you're interested