Pastor Jason Wallace's Perspective on Eastern Orthodoxy

[@zanev5832]

Somewhere just after 2:12:00 in talking about the canon he says you don't need an infallible Church to give the set of books "because we know what the apostles wrote." As someone who used to buy into the idea that certain Pauline Epistles were forged, 2 Peter was forged, Gospel of John was a later attempt to divinize Jesus, etc I can't say I find pastor Jason's argument convincing. Thankfully, I came to the Orthodox Church and rejected my heretical beliefs, accepting Church authority on the canon.

[@shiningdiamond5046]

He has a bart ehrman video that's just awful and doesn't actually answer the question of how he knows what is or isn't new testament scripture. I'm also somone who used to deny Revelations, the johannine letters and jude and antitrinitarian.

[@sirweddings]

I'd love to hear you and Fr. Peter Heers or Fr. John Whiteford do another live stream to address this further elucidation of Jason Wallace's perspectives about Eastern Orthodoxy.

[@living_orthodox]

I admire Craig’s patience and gentleness. The only thing I’ll say is that for one, I think Jason’s answers were often too long and deviated from the topics at hand. Second, I don’t think we can honestly say the man has done any good work regarding Orthodoxy. I understand the reason for the wording around that, but we cannot call something good (despite the production quality), when it’s intended purpose is ultimately evil. To dissuade or cause descent from the truth of Orthodoxy. Pray for Jason that one day his eyes will open to the truth.

[@acekoala457]

I can't go back to Protestantism. I very well could remain outwardly Orthodox and be Protestant but it's not a complete faith. I am glad God chose to bring me to Him.

[@aCatholicOne]

For your idolatry you decided to not to love a brother (Luke 10:16) Well did King Hezekiah do when he destroyed the brazen serpent once it was venerated (2 Kings 18:4) Blessed is the Lord, which He told you with actions alone not to idolize your foolish icons, even gave you instructions on what to do (Isiah 44:13) Haven't you read or at least heard that once the Israelites started idolizing the Ark (I Samuel 4-7) Your Trinity comes from an ignorance of scripture, for you have made yourselves the judge of it. It was states in Revelation 22:1 as well as in the prophecy of Proverbs where the Son states that it is His Spirit (Proverbs 1:23) By making men the judge, and not the holiest Word of God the judge, you have idolized men instead of God Himself. Repent and turn to the Church of God, not one with gold and lead paint but one with the Holy spirit of God. Repent. @@emanuelkournianos7412

[@living_orthodox]

@@aCatholicOne you mean like you idolized the Bible? You make a lot of false claims based on legalistic word concept fallacies. You’re right that men shouldn’t be the judge, thus I reject your interpretation of Scripture. You could bother to learn what we Orthodox actually believe and why before just copy and pasting a response. Also we don’t use lead paint. We use egg tempura. You don’t have a church, you have Nestorian concept that does away with the necessity of the incarnation of the Son of God. Revelations also doesn’t say what you say it does. There’s plenty out there, go look for yourself. As for icons, we don’t worship them. We don’t believe they contain God or any spirit so you charge false flat. It’s a tired old polemic that isn’t very good. Icons predate the printing press. They depict scenes from scripture more of than not, yet many Protestants drool over silly movies about Jesus while rejecting the sober theological messages conveyed in icons. You don’t have a faith. You have a philosophy and it is man-centred. It based on YOUR interpretation, the pastor faces the people and many Protestant churches use really silly pop and rock music to entertain their audiences. Yet somehow we are “man-centred” when everything you do is meant to appeal man’s intellectual pride and sensual slavery? Respond if you want. I have said enough

[@MrPanchoak]

Having been a Southern Baptist for 25 years, born and raised a Seventh Day Adventist. It was not until I found orthodoxy that I found peace with God. I do understand why folks like this. I was once one of them. But one really needs to examine the validity of the beginning presuppositions. Sola Scriptura, is a huge problem. Nowhere does Scripture teach anything even close to that. But his biggest issue is that he considers his own judgement in effect to supersede all other teaching not approved by himself. He even joined his sect because it fell to his personal approval. He considers Eastern Orthodoxy to be "Another Gospel" based upon his own idea of what the Gospel actually is. Yet he has not worked his arithmetic backwards to check his work. The very people who gave him his Bible were "Mary venerating", "Cross signing", "works reliant"(by his standards anyway)! Kathlik Bishops. But what justifies his position? Scripture alone? I'd argue that his position is actually his own judgement about what he believes the Bible says. But actually devoid of any Apostolic thought beyond some super generalized concepts. I'd ask him several questions. The same ones that I asked myself to be honest. 1, Where does the Holy Spirit live? Is his dwelling place really in the fleshly tables of the heart? Or does he live between the pages of the protestant Bible never reaching beyond those pages until someone stumbles across it lying around in a dusty old attic? 2, Why do the Old Church Christians all have the same essential doctrines common among all of themselves? They were separated by a thousand+ miles of foot travel across very inhospitable terrain. Normally one would expect this to wind up with a doctrinal salad from various missionaries teaching some variations. Yet we see consistency among them with the notable exception of Rome. Why is that? Answer: They were evangelized by the Apostles of Christ himself. The SOURCE was the same for all of them. Therefore the variant was a later novelist from Rome. This man may indeed have humble intent. But he has fooled himself. At least as badly as he believes others to be fooled. I could write a book on this subject! but that has already been done many times, by many people far more talented than I.

[@MrPanchoak]

@@emanuelkournianos7412 Very well stated.

[@Paddle-N-Fish]

I liked his interview! A good representative for the reformed position. I come from that background and found peace there for a long time, but began to have doubts about my election and regeneration, when battling various sins and doubts. I brought it to my pastors and calvinist brothers, and they all said i needed to examine my life, and see if God was changing my heart, and was really repentant, had fruits of faith, etc... well, yes, but i could never tell if they were really of the Spirit, or justme trying hard to be a Christian by my own power. It became so much navel gazing to try and determine if i was a real believer. It almost drove me insane! I could find no peace. I finally had to walk away.

[@aCatholicOne]

I do not know why they told you if you can see your heart being changed by God, that is almost impossible to do as you mentioned, God's will is not ours, however it might just be the different theologies between Churches. I have had the same struggles with election and still do, the best thing you can do as a Calvinist in this regards just accept your election and put your faith on Jesus. Jesus died for you, your faith is sealed in him, God does not give you a calling and just leave you, if you are still Christian then just stay where you're at. The Lutheran Church is very much an alright Church if you have quarrels with Presbyterian Theology, I will not say that we are a soul authority. Either than that, feel free to ask questions, God bless.

[@thatsabignomydude]

@MTBucket1. As an EO and former Calvinist, I really appreciated you writing this. I believe that the heartfelt account of your journey within the reformed tradition resonates profoundly with the struggle you faced in grappling with doubts about election and regeneration. Your candidness about the challenges you confronted when confronted with personal struggles and uncertainties shines a light on the complexity of faith. Furthermore, your approach, driven by introspection to identify signs of God's transformative work, echoes the path you walked in the Calvinist tradition. However, it's clear that this route led to a tumultuous cycle of internal scrutiny, which you describe as overwhelming. In stark contrast, Eastern Orthodox theology beckons with an alternative approach, drawing from the intricate tapestry of biblical wisdom that diverges sharply from the deterministic dogmas of Calvinism. Consider Philippians 2:12-13, a clarion call for believers to "Work out their own salvation with fear and trembling." This stands in direct defiance of the notion of predestination in Calvinism, emphasizing instead the cooperative synergy of divine grace and the human will so central to Eastern Orthodox thought. The continued resonance of 2 Peter 1:4 and the portrayal of believers as "Partakers of the Divine Nature" defies the rigid confines of Calvinism's predestination. It aligns exquisitely with the Orthodox doctrine of Theosis, which narrates the transformative journey toward union with the divine. Romans 8:29 then shatters the mold of predestination, painting an evocative picture of believers being "Conformed to the image of his Son." This imagery flies in the face of Calvinism's unalterable election principle, aligning seamlessly with the dynamic transformation championed by Eastern Orthodox theology. Even in your journey of questioning, the urgency of 2 Peter 1:10's exhortation to "be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election" emerges as a call for engaged commitment. This counters the Calvinistic notion of passive acceptance, aligning instead with the Orthodox dedication to relentless growth. While in another instance, Romans 12:2 commands us to "Be transformed by the renewal of your mind" and resounds as a poignant anthem against the utter stasis of Calvinistic determinism. This rallying cry embodies the Orthodox focus on continuous spiritual metamorphosis. In the reverberating wake of these illuminating biblical foundations, the Eastern Orthodox perspective radiates as a beacon of profound intellectual and spiritual depth. It ventures beyond the constrictions of rigid predestination, embracing the intricate interplay of divine grace and human will. In the end, your journey stands as a testament to the quest for a perspective that resonates profoundly with the voyage of the soul. While I’m not sure where you stand now, I will add you to my prayer book going forward. God bless!

[@Paddle-N-Fish]

@thatsabignomydude wow! Thanks for your reply! I totally agree with all of it! Thank you for your prayers too! I was baptized into the Orthodox Church April 2021 and I really believe I really am home now ! Christ is in our midst! 😀

[@Paddle-N-Fish]

@@aCatholicOne thanks for your reply. I am in the Orthodox Church now.

[@aCatholicOne]

​@@Paddle-N-Fish Oh, ngl I'm just staring at the screen. It feels odd coming from different perspectives, in Mexico and Baja Cali its the other way around, it's usually people converting from Eo or Roman catholicism to Protestantism, in my case it was neither but Jehovah Witnesses, which is harder on Protestants but I wouldn't say it's persecution just out population. Glad to see you with a good spirit, really comforting to see (or read), God bless your soul. ✝❤

[@Whaat-in-the-world]

It would be interesting for Pastor Wallace and Fr. Whiteford to have a discussion together on Orthodox theology.

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

Wallace criticizes Mormons for constantly name dropping Jesus to smuggle in their errant tradition… at the same time he constantly says “follow scripture” when what he really means is “follow Calvinist tradition and interpretation of scripture”

[@matthewrudolph3514]

You’re caricaturing Biblical Christians so you’re wrong

[@acekoala457]

@@matthewrudolph3514 "Follow our interpretation of your Holy Book" It's just Pride.

[@Magx451]

Very good video, I think letting the Pastor talk and give his understandings and frustrations with Orthodoxy are a must-see for people who watched the original video and the type of disposition this man had. Pray for his conversion!

[@AisElliott]

Reminds me of a time before the Internet when people could disagree on something fundamental, not back down, but still respect each other when it's all said and done.

[@OrthodoxChristianTheology]

Must have been 1998 at the latest.

[@daric_]

Thank you for the interview. I was one of the Mormons that objected to claims that Jason made in his documentary about Mormonism and Joseph Smith. But he responded with patience and charity. He didn't know at the time, but I was already struggling with my faith as a Mormon/LDS. By God's grace, He led me out of Mormonism. I'm a 1689 Confessional/Reformed Baptist now (no one is perfect 😅) and have appreciated Jason's documentaries and content witnessing to various faith groups (even when he calls out us Baptists). I thought his documentary on Orthodoxy was interesting given I know little to nothing about it, and wanted to know what Orthodox think about it.

[@sillysyriac8925]

It is extremely unfortunate that pastor Wallace so deeply misunderstood theosis, given how central it was as the source of his critiques within the context of his work among Mormons (who unfortunately do appeal to this idea in order to justify their rank heresy). As soon as he failed to mention the essence energies distinction and the vast literature on the topic insofar as it relates to theosis, I knew his critiques would completely miss the mark. For one so concerned about straw-manning, he fell prey to it himself in many of his critiques. He also blatantly misrepresented both patriarch Kiril and Gregory of Palamas, which felt like cheap shots when divorced from their broader context. Furthermore, he expressed a typical distaste Protestants have towards asceticism largely rooted in a particular reading of Sola Fide into the scriptures and the fathers, a mistake that has been so robustly rebutted in scholarly literature I have engaged with that sola fide alone would keep me from ever becoming protestant again. Calvinists should be commended for their devotion to scriptures and love of Christ, and it is shameful that pastor Wallace was attacked so injudiciously by many Orthodox commenters, but hopefully he will continue to engage in these issues and at least be aware of the degree to which the Orthodox love their church and have serious reasons for defending it (if at times incorrigibly :) )!

[@acekoala457]

I stopped being Protestant and became Orthodox because I had a desire to properly love Scripture.

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

Good interview. The pastor seems very triggered by Mormonism. apparently anyone who isn’t a presbyterian has Mormon tendencies lol

[@OrthodoxHSMother]

😂

[@matthewrudolph3514]

Well Orthodox believe in good works and so do Mormons. If it isn’t Christ alone it’s not Biblical

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

​@@matthewrudolph3514 the sky and the sea are both blue. They must be similar 🙄

[@orthochristos]

MMA and table tennis are both sports. Therefore they are the exact same thing...@@matthewrudolph3514

[@aaronwolf4211]

They will never admit it, but at the end of the day, the evangelical view of the Theotokos is really just summed up in the following - “I cannot wrap my head around why the Theotokos is so fundamentally important to the very understanding of what it means to be a Christian so I will strawman by imposing my own errant presuppositions which assume anything more than calling Mary the mother of Jesus and a ‘special woman’ is tantamount to idolatry and worshipping her instead of Jesus.” This view is so tiresome, especially for we former Protestants who not only understand Orthodoxy but we understand it in light of where Protestants fundamentally err. And it hurts to see such stubbornness and pretzel logic. Lord have mercy.

[@matthewrudolph3514]

Orthodoxy erred a long time ago trying to make Mary into a god.

[@aaronwolf4211]

@@matthewrudolph3514 Even Luther and Calvin believed in the honoring the ever-virgin Mary. They could not deny the profound love and veneration of the earliest Church fathers. And so many Protestants today, such as yourself, continue to claim we "worship" Mary or "make Mary into a god", further demonstrating you have don't even understand the Orthodox position on our own terms. You just see the externals of Marian veneration and jump to conclusions grounded in your own errant presuppositions. I'm willing to bet you don't even understand the Protestant position at it's core. You just bootstrap together a bunch of propositional doctrines arbitrarily duck taped together with Scripture often taken out of context, which is why you project "worship" onto us even as you refuse to even try and see things from our - the original, historical Christian - point of view. Again, at least TRY to understand our view without misrepresenting it.

[@seg162]

@@matthewrudolph3514 Mary literally _cannot_ be god, or else Christ can't be the God-man. Nobody's out to make Mary into a god-- that'd contradict our understanding of what Christ is.

[@acekoala457]

@@matthewrudolph3514 Please show where the Christian Church made the Theotokos into a god.

[@aCatholicOne]

@@aaronwolf4211 We hold up to horning the virgin Mary and all of the saints, we believe in what the Church fathers believed which is we love God more. We do not idolize her as a sinless saint that kept her virginity, we love Mary but do not make a doctrine of kissing an icon that is suppose to represent her.

[@aaronwolf4211]

No, we do not pick and choose. Orthodoxy is not about “picking and choosing”. That’s something wholly unique to Protestants, something which you guys love to project on everyone else while ignoring your own inconsistencies.

[@aCatholicOne]

We do not pick and choose, the man part of the church is to be divided for we are imperfect, while the divine aspect of the Church is perfect. By glorifying the man aspect of church you have made the man part of church equal to the divine.

[@acekoala457]

@@aCatholicOne The Church is Divine and Human and there is no Division between the Two else Christ is Divided. Ecclesiastical Nestorianism.

[@aaronwolf4211]

@@aCatholicOne Tell me where Christ says there is a "man" part and a "divine" part of the Church. Tell me where Christ says the Church itself (not the people in it) is "imperfect" and "divided". Tell me where Christ says the Church is to be divided in any way at all. You can't. So your reply reveals you aren't even following your own hermeneutic and by doing so you're proving my point that you do pick and choose. By assuming you believe Orthodox are "glorifying the man aspect of the church", you further demonstrate you don't even understand Orthodox ecclesiology.

[@aCatholicOne]

@@aaronwolf4211 The Church is truly man and truly divine, undivided. When I wrote to you saying the man part of the church, instead of going for what is divine you say that your authority is the same as the Apostles without the gift of the Holy Ghost, or miracles or with any authority given by God. We are to believe that your councils that you count as ecumenical are that being you said so, because your authority is above scripture in that regards. Foolish to throw random words and use word play fallacies to prove your point. Even your own Eastern orthodox will use these verses for what I have said (1 Peter 2:5) (Romans 15:20) (Revelation 14:3) (Matthew 19:28) Even your doctrine uses the doctrine of saints in heaven still being apart of Church, you are a fool who wishes to hear what you want to hear, yet if you hear it from someone you do not want to listen to, you cover up your ears and put scales in your eyes. Blessed is the Lord and may his will be done, hate and woe to me for I myself am a foolish sinner disgusting and prideful. May the saints persevere. Praise Him from whom all blessings flow, Hosanna in the Highest. Feel free, as always, to message anytime, God bless.

[@aCatholicOne]

@@acekoala457 Should've elaborated furthermore, I responded to this in my last message as well. I believe I have not talked to you before, so this is simply my fault. I'll leave the message up to make a fool of myself, God Bless.

[@GuitarJesse7]

27:11 Regarding caricature of Protestantism, I know that many Protestants and Evangelicals don’t preach a message of say the sinner’s prayer and then go live like a Pagan. However, does this pastor not know of this quote from Martin Luther? It literally says what this pastor claims Protestantism doesn’t teach. “If men only believe enough in Christ they can commit adultery and murder a thousand times a day without periling their salvation.” I read a post that tried to say this quote was not good, but that it was just hyperbole, however, I do not find it satisfactory. This kind of hyperbole that Martin Luther used is not comparable to the way that someone like Paul or Jesus just hyperbole. Also, I would ask this pastor how he can speak on behalf of Protestantism when it is so divided and you can essentially find many churches that teach opposite things from each other, all calling themselves Christian. Also, does he not have the historical and analytical sense to realize that Protestantism and Sola Scriptura really was the first restorationist movement? Or at least opened Pandora’s box to pave the way for things like JW’s, Mormon’s, SDA, etc? I haven’t even watched the whole video yet, and even as a newbie to Orthodoxy I can already tell he either doesn’t know or understand much about the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church. I am making all these comments as an evangelical of 27 years who is now turning to the Orthodox Church.

[@SinkingStarship]

It's interesting how they say you can't say the Sinner's Prayer then live a life of debauchery, but as much as they try to deny it or don't like it, it's an inevitable implication of their theology.

[@acekoala457]

​@@SinkingStarship OSAS Theology's inevitable conclusion is either 1) God can deceive the Non-Elect into thinking they are saved or 2) One can be Elect and remain in a life of Sin. Both of these conclusions are almost Hagarene in Methodology.

[@GuitarJesse7]

@@emanuelkournianos7412 Indeed, PSA is a real problem that many Protestants and Evangelicals believe in to varying degrees. Many of us who came from that side of things just took it for granted and didn't think of the implications of how it characterizes the Father, nor did we realize that the juridical mindset we apply to passages that use that legal kind of language is not how the apostles or recipients of the epistles and the gospel would have understood that. There's a big series on youtube done by a sort of Protestant and an Orthodox guy that really digs deep on this subject. I would encourage anyone who has been taught PSA to check it out, or if you are Orthodox trying to help non-Orthodox see the folly of this view, to check out the series. kzbin.info/aero/PLHjVR-mjXyvH5ke6ND4KdrlZcBTzwwJx_&si=ZgEm37dH7jDu09hx

[@GuitarJesse7]

@@emanuelkournianos7412 well said and lots of good scripture references to consider.

[@thesampo]

It would be better if he knew more about Orthodoxy. However, I appreciate the conversation.

[@matthewrudolph3514]

You should learn more what the Bible says.

[@acekoala457]

​@@matthewrudolph3514 I did. And then I couldn't remain Protestant because there was no authority to bind interpretations of Scripture, despite Scripture stating that some do have the Authority to Interpret Scripture. I became Orthodox because I love Scripture and I want to live the life of those who wrote and compiled it.

[@maximustheconfessor72]

Has anyone in the history of the earth ever converted from EO to Calvinism?? I have yet to see it.

[@seg162]

That Joshua(?) Schooping fellow was a Calvinist, then became Orthodox, and then became a Calvinist again after becoming an Orthodox priest. He's a strange one since he talks like he didn't actively lead people into doing what he calls idolatry. I'm sure there are some people who were born Orthodox who converted to other Christian traditions, sometimes out of spiritual conviction.

[@maximustheconfessor72]

@@seg162 funny cuz Dyer and David were just making fun of the fact that's literally the only guy they have.

[@aCatholicOne]

I converted from Jehovah Witnesses to Presbyterian, close enough.

[@seg162]

@@maximustheconfessor72 The lot of them probably aren't going to make a grift out of their conversion, so you won't hear of them. Schooping is also a very awful poster boy that highlights the problems with the Evangelical fascination with conversion stories: it's not that he was born Orthodox, or even just became Orthodox, but _he was a priest that led and instructed people in what he now calls idolatry._ And I'm pretty sure none of the people he's rubbing shoulders with now acknowledges this.

[@standinthegap7]

Schooping is not a Calvinist nor is he Reformed lol. He is a pastor in the Christian Missionary Alliance. They are not "Calvinist" in any sense of the word.@@seg162

[@mikemolaro4198]

Thanks as always Craig for your calm intellect and grace. However, Jasons audio quality makes this a very difficult listen.

[@antonioj.castaneda7377]

Craig, awesome video. Although it is very difficult to hear pastor Jason’s words, you are able to sort of get the message. IC XC NIKA ☦️

[@ryanbeaver6080]

Wow, I really enjoyed this! Both Craig and Pastor Wallace, you did a great job. I think this video shows we must first try to understand where the other side is coming from, before offering such harsh criticism. I don’t think either side does a very good job of this. Thank you for this blessing 🙏

[@GuitarJesse7]

It’s clear that this man has done some research, I don’t want to imply he hasn’t, in fact I’m sure he studied certain things more in depth about Orthodoxy than I have as an inquirer for the last year. However, he like many other Protestant apologists is definitely more familiar with Roman Catholicism and seems to at times assess or understand Orthodoxy as if it is more or less the same when it comes to the particular concerns he has. This is a major problem I have picked up on as I listen to Protestant objections.

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

WRONG Wallace. The short answer is NO the Filioque is explicitly not biblical

[@matthewrudolph3514]

So the difference with Orthodoxy and Biblical Christianity is the Orthodox Church will anathematize anyone who believes the filioque. We don’t.

[@acekoala457]

​@@matthewrudolph3514 Orthodoxy is Biblical Christianity. False Dialectic.

[@crushtheserpent]

It looks explicit to me in Rev 22:1

[@sillysyriac8925]

That Filioque question. . . . Oof haha.

[@LeutherGreengager-ip1uw]

By default of Rome.

[@acekoala457]

​@@LeutherGreengager-ip1uw Calvinists become the Pope's best Apologists when it comes to the Filioque.

[@LeutherGreengager-ip1uw]

@@acekoala457 friend, how true that is! My Anglican ex-minister brother in-law - more Calvinist than "Anglican" - could've used the very words of Pastor Wallace in this regard.

[@acekoala457]

​@@LeutherGreengager-ip1uw Anglicans can't even agree on the Filioque and allow the ByzAngs(Anglican Uniates) to recite without it and even some of the Anglican Communions. It is truly the Kirkland Brand Roman Catholicism.

[@LeutherGreengager-ip1uw]

@@acekoala457 we should welcome them back into the genuine Nicaean fold. It saddens me that a branch has wandered off to Rome - the (Anglican) Ordinariate.

[@TheForbiddenLean]

55:23 Saint Photius the Great says regarding this: "he [Constantine] received baptism in a ceremony conducted by one of the Orthodox, not, as some believe, at the hands of a heretic." And obviously Nicaea II rejects he was Baptized later. Photius, who had perhaps one of the most expansive libraries ever, seems to agree with Nicaea II on this.

[@OrthodoxChristianTheology]

Indeed. It's just tough to say that Saints Amborse and Jerome, were were active in the fourth century were factually wrong, that Eusebius (who knew COnstantine) was factually wrong--it's possible of course. It does not defy any natural laws. And certainly it is more pious to believe what Nicea II teaches (in passing). It would be dishonest to say that Saint Sylvester doing the baptism is the historically more likely case, however.

[@TheForbiddenLean]

​@@OrthodoxChristianTheologyI'd have to disagree it was in passing, given it was used as a proof text in favor of Icons which the Council accepted.

[@OrthodoxChristianTheology]

@@TheForbiddenLean it was in a florilegium in a papal letter in the second session. The point was to prove icon veneration as an icon is in the story. The passing detail is the mention of baptism.

[@TheForbiddenLean]

@@OrthodoxChristianTheology I know that was the point of the passage. But, for example, when Paul mentions in passing some OT detail we assume he cites everything he did for a reason. Point is, the Council, according to St Nektarios, was less about Icons and more so about anti-reform. The very fact the detail about Baptism remains, which he could've easily left out, is significant.

[@OrthodoxChristianTheology]

@@TheForbiddenLean yes, which is why if somehow the council and menaion are correct historically than this is good. But as a matter of impartial historical analysis, we need to be honest about where the evidence points. We don't expect the heterodox to simply accept our hagiographies especially when they contradict good historical evidence to the contrary. The fact that saints including Jerome and Ambrose are witnesses against the hagiographic detail leads me to believe that even making the more strictly historical analysis one couldn't be impious as he'd still be siding with saints on the question.

[@TedBruckner]

Craig, Love inspired me to think : the most Christ-like thing you could do regarding this, all this, seeing how you and him treated each other, is to quit yourself like a man (as the saying in the Septuagint goes), and let it be, let it go, and move forward in the Way, the Truth and the Life.

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

I'm glad that Craig wanted to dialogue with this guy, but this video would have been immensely better had he given some pushback on the disagreements rather than just another platform for Wallace to promote his misunderstandings and strawmen arguments against Orthodoxy.

[@standinthegap7]

Most Holy Theotokos save us!

[@matthewrudolph3514]

She won’t save you- she can’t here you. It’s Christ who saves us. I pray the scales drop from your eyes and you trust in Christ alone for your salvation

[@aCatholicOne]

@@matthewrudolph3514 We do not know if she can hear us or not, but we love her either way for Christ loved her.

[@matthewrudolph3514]

@@aCatholicOne so why do you need her to save you?

[@standinthegap7]

It isn't save in the same way Christ saves. St. Paul in his epistles talks about trying to save all peoples. It's Christ who saves, but just as Moses interceded before God for the people of Israel, the Theotokos and all the saints made righteous by faith pray for us and through their prayers to Christ the saints save us.@@matthewrudolph3514

[@didymus2721]

Most Holy Theotokos save us!

[@aaronwolf4211]

This guy needs to personally witness the Iveron icon of the Theotokos then figure out if he’s not really as rationalist as he claims. You simply cannot walk away from a small piece of painted wood with a cloth covering that is not only drenched but continually drenched by myrrh and still be this skeptical without rejecting the power of Christ and His continuous presence within His Holy Apostolic Orthodox Church. But to paraphrase our Lord, there’s some who will continue to refuse to believe even if and when presented with countless miracles. Lord have mercy.

[@acekoala457]

The Ivernon Icon is even more Miraculous as it is not painted, but a Printed Replica of another Myrrh Streaming Icon that has been lost. It will be in Seattle for the Nativity of the Theotokos on the Old Calendar.

[@aaronwolf4211]

@@acekoala457 Thanks for the correction. I love the icons and I've been fortunate enough to venerate the Iveron icon in person but I know next to nothing about their creation and some of the more nuanced aspects of the art form itself. So many incredible stories over the years.

[@acekoala457]

@@aaronwolf4211 I got off work just for the opportunity to see it since I am unsure if I will ever see it again.

[@TedBruckner]

brother Craig, aloha from Hawai'i, big respect ! "not an orthodox beard" you have you say ? an' why not, bradda ? go 4 it YOOU CCAANN DDOO IT !

[@matthewrudolph3514]

Thank you and God bless this man Mr Wallace for preaching the truth! May the scales fall from the EO eyes and that they turn to Christ alone for salvation just like the publican in Luke 18. Our work to “be made right “ with God is like filthy rags

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

No thanks. This dude is a self appointed (unbiblical) pastor in a made up sect that has absolutely no continuity with the Church nor her scriptures. He spent half the time arguing against Mormonism as if that somehow applies to Orthodoxy. Ironically his made up ecclesiology has more in common with them than us. He equates/conflates the authority of scripture with his private interpretation of scripture.

[@acekoala457]

Which Christ? Calvin's Christ who was damned by the Father? Luther's Christ who only has one Nature? Or the Pope's Christ who Co-Spirates the Holy Spirit? I choose to follow Christ in His Body on Earth, the Orthodox Church, the Body Established on the Resurrection of Christ and the Confession of the Apostles.

[@aCatholicOne]

@@Journey_of_Abundance He mentioned Mormonism a lot since they're preaching methods are similar to Eastern orthodox. Just like the Mormons they appeal to their own experience and to the human interpretation of scriptures, and when confronted with them they act as if it isn't an authority and that men are more authoritative. Also he never argues against Mormonism in his video so, I do not know where you got that from. It was only in his comments when he made a comparison, he compares them as heretic Just as always you say "conflates the authority of scripture with his private interpretation", we get our theology from the divine aspect of the Church not a heretic from the 7th century. We judge councils by scripture and not by our own opinion, which is better in your eyes?

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

@@aCatholicOne Mormonism is literally nothing like Orthodoxy, and protestantism shares the idea with Mormonism that the Church (Body of Christ) erred for thousands of years. And no we don't appeal to human interpretation of scripture. That's literally what you do. We appeal to the Holy Spirit that has always guided the Church. You are just projecting here. Presbyterianism looks nothing like the Church councils. You outright reject Church councils that you don't agree with, because as you just said, you have made yourselves the judge. You've created a false dialectic between experience and the gospel. As a result you're in a spiritually dead sect that copes with it's spiritual deadness and lack of holiness with doctrines like cessationism. People in the Bible experienced the energies of God. They experienced miracles. This never changed. Just because many people have false, demonic experiences doesn't mean that true experiences don't exist. And no, we don't treat our experiences as authoritative, so you don't even know what you're talking about.

[@aCatholicOne]

@@Journey_of_Abundance We let scripture interpret scripture, scripture and God is our judge. You reject various councils, your justification? It is not scripture, or anything among those lines but it is your own pride and delusion that you are in the right that makes you reject it. We do not make ourselves our own judge, if that were to be the case we would try to make up forgeries and call it authentic to push an agenda, just like what you did. But instead we call ourselves the least, miserable and only saved by God's grace. We are not the judge, but the most high in the Church is, which has given unto us his word to us, not us to his word. What are the councils? You made yourself a judge of councils not scripture of councils. You deny St. Basil, and despite his disapproval of icons you venerate him. St. Irenaeus, even as mentioned in the same video you criticize was shown to appeal towards scripture and not the corruptible humans, you treat him highly on a bases of what. Without scriptures how would we have a human Church, you are a fool for thinking that it could be the other way around. Well did God act upon in Samuel 4-7, by putting your faith in something else besides God you have committed idolatry. (Most of your "churches" teach that) Your doctrines do not show your experiences authoritative, but in order for the people to ignore the points in Mr. Wallace's video they appealed to their own experience which is what I referred to. Lacking love of the saints led you to this, (Ephesians 1:15-16), repent and submit to God's Church, one made by the Holy Ghost and not men.

[@micahkirn6756]

To bad i couldnt hear or understand him over his audio.

[@joseonwalking8666]

While I appreciate a good dialogue. I think it's unfortunate that a lot of the blatant falsehoods and misrepresentations From his video that gave him all this clout amongst orthodox circles wasn't addressed. Orthodox could naturally do a refutation of every single line in video, but it's not gonna do anyone any good. Mostly because it's a waste of time and all of those arguments that hes put forward have been addressed. Ad nauseum in the past. He could have reached out to any number of orthodox clergy or scholars or apologists online, and they would have gladly done a sit down discussion on these very issues before he put out the video.

[@shiningdiamond5046]

1:22:10 ok this is provably false and shows that wallace is ignorant of the jewish pracfice of Purim, ezras ordained weekly fast and even tisha bav as well as all the other fasting and celibacy requirements talked about in the targums and later rabbis that spoke of the necessary fasting rules, if he had respect for true piety he wouldn't be losing people to muslims, orthodox and mormons

[@TedBruckner]

i love Orthodoxy and what Jason brings up at 23 minute mark, his 1st point of contention against Orthodoxy is how elevated Mary has become. And that is something that is hard to deny because i have read compliations from all the extant writings of ECF in the 1st 5 centuries on what is written about Mother Mary and nothing more than simply to state that she's the Theotokos is all that is said. Theotokos - God -bearer. In her own confession in the Gospels, she says people for generations will call / says she's blessed; but our Orthodox prayers and liturgies elevate her to being integrated on par with the Trinity in essence. Anybody have anything from the first five centuries (besides that manuscript of a prayer to her) have i missed? i would appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

On par with the Trinity? You are seriously mistaken. Showing reverence for the greatest saint that ever lived doesn't equate to her being on par with the Trinity.

[@acekoala457]

Only the Trinity is given Latria. The Theotokos is given Hyperdulia. We don't make sacrifices to her as we do to God. She is the Greatest Christian and her whole life should Mirror our own Christian lives.

[@seg162]

If Mary was on par with God, then she would *be* God. Meaning, Christ wouldn't be fully God and fully man.

[@aCatholicOne]

Nowhere in scripture does it say that Mary was the sinless woman, she is a blessed woman indeed but we give the glory to God who made her blessed. We love Mary, but we love God who made and loves Mary more.@@Journey_of_Abundance

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

@@aCatholicOne we don't believe that everything is in the scriptures, just like Paul said several times.

[@LeutherGreengager-ip1uw]

Orthodox infaliabilty is synodal.

[@Tiredhike]

Being the “blessed man” is abhorrent to those that want to work their way into God’s grace.

[@nicodemuseam]

It's not "working our way into God's grace;" We believe we have the grace of God, by virtue of the Mysteries of God, and that acts of love(virtue, which is impossible without grace) are the catalyst to our further development as Orthodox Christians (Sanctification, Theosis). Like grace multiplying grace, because the Lord rewards our endurance in unhypocritically doing His Commandments with more grace. (Matthew 6) Synergy! God and man working together.