Pastor (Wes) vs. Matt Dillahunty & Forrest Valkai- Hosts Clash Over Biblical Morality

Wes, a pastor, calls in to discuss open theism and making Christianity more scientifically compatible. The hosts contend the biblical God does not match Wes's description, detailing God's violence, failure, and endorsement of slavery. Wes responds that God is not all-powerful and works gradually to improve humans. But the hosts point to specific immoral acts and verses showing the biblical God's cruelty.
As Wes avoids answering whether God created the "barbarians" he improved, the hosts grow frustrated with his evasion and implications they misinterpret scripture. The call descends into clear disagreement as the hosts reject Wes's progressive spin and inability to justify the biblical God's morality. The contentious call ends unresolved.
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[@Christopher-wm8vc]

He became dishonest the moment he said “I appreciate what you guys are doing”

[@bovinejonie3745]

One can appreciate something while still disagreeing with it.

[@Christopher-wm8vc]

@@bovinejonie3745 I didn’t say you couldn’t. My comment is for Wes in this context. But thanks for your wisdom

[@MisterRorschach90]

I always cringe laugh when pastors say that. It’s absolutely ridiculous.

[@kanon1118]

then you cannot then say "he became dishonest, when you can disagree and still appriciate.what part of that is doshonest?@@Christopher-wm8vc

[@bryanaperry8760]

​@kanon1118 if the pastor believes what he claims, then he would HAVE to not appreciate what they do. His job as a pastor is to do the opposite of what they do. I think that makes him dishonest. You can disagree. But yes, to me that is insanely dishonest.

[@w0rmblood323]

"Who made us the barbarians" You can literally hear the precise moment when Wes realised he fucked up.

[@BlessYourHeart254]

Bazinga! Matt just hit a nerve 😂

[@mhoppy6639]

Ding! Spot on.

[@brucebaker810]

Does caller figure man-now was Jehovah's end goal? Apes to Barbarians to us? What if it's a 25 phase Plan. And we're just at Barbarian IV?

[@pavel9652]

If I was in states I would go to his church and sit in the first row in t-shirt with this text xD Who made us the barbarians, Wes?

[@germanshepherd2701]

As if animals are all about forced legally binding monogamy in the first place lol some animals form monogamous pairs, some don’t. Don’t remember the last time I saw a animal forcing another to be in a continuous forced monogamous relationship lol

[@Alltime2050]

Superstitious people often believe that being able to rationalize their superstitions is the same as rational thinking.

[@margaretjohnson6259]

wow. i'm going to use that in debate with "christians". thanks.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

F'n great point dude. Bravo

[@MrSoonerCal]

Excellent.

[@FourDeuce01]

Yeah, they seem to believe “rationalize” means to make something rational.😂

[@Unkempt27]

Nicely put!

[@coldloyalty]

Forrest is standing there, getting a tan as Matt flames this guy with the power of the sun....

[@pyroblast3000]

😂😂😂😂😂

[@diamondblue916]

Matt's FURY from 12:28 to 14:10 was truly of biblical proportion.

[@pavel9652]

Wrath of Matt! ;) Wes found himself in a ground zero of an event on a scale of asteroid impact ;)

[@jediknightdiscomike22]

It was an extinction level event what matt put out there. One cannot follow in his footsteps.

[@jediknightdiscomike22]

@@zapkvr really? Is that the best you got? Nothing to contribute to the conversation?

[@pavel9652]

Zapkvr can't even capitalise first letter and put the dot at the end of the sentence. Does anyone see more mistakes? We have a heavy hitter here!

[@jediknightdiscomike22]

@@pavel9652 hah! Good one!

[@kurman4749]

After that legitimate tirade by Matt, how can anyone worship the Christian God?

[@pollypockets508]

They think they need him. He brings them comfort. To fit in. Etc

[@NPC-rq6vn]

Threats of hell keeps people in line.

[@marrllly]

they're brainless

[@jimbob3030]

Once indoctrinated into a mentally abusive cult, you become mentally dependent on the cult.

[@stultusvenator3233]

Cowardice, dressed in fear and a corrupt moral compass.

[@frankpalancio8471]

Almost feel sorry for pastors these days with how channels like this destroys their fantasy world. But they deserve it, they all deserve it.

[@jamesaston410]

I’d say amen to that, even though it doesn’t sit well coming from an atheist :)

[@comradeking4427]

Why do they deserve it?

[@jamesaston410]

@@comradeking4427 well if they’re going to put the head above the parapet by calling in, they have to accept the incoming flack!

[@frankpalancio8471]

@@comradeking4427 because they are indoctrinating children on fantasy instead of reality

[@ga6589]

@@comradeking4427 Because they're indoctrinating people through fear and intimidation.

[@margaretjohnson6259]

if fear of a god is all that keeps a person from doing evil, it's not morality.

[@jamesaston410]

The bible objectifies morality, preferring to see what the person is not who, but morality is subjective, so it doesn’t work and makes no sense.

[@themanwithnoname1839]

Exactly, cultists dont do evil cuz they HAVE to be told they cant, agnostics like me just dont do it cuz we think "hmm that would suck ass if someone jammed a knife into my throat so i wont do it to them"

[@bobs182]

Perhaps belief in punishment for not following rules is needed for people without critical thinking skills to be good.

[@margaretjohnson6259]

@@bobs182 belief in imaginary consequences is not morality. and such beliefs never stopped immoral behaviour.

[@bobs182]

@@margaretjohnson6259 Most commonly morality is considered as conforming to the rules of a society and fear of punishment here or later can deter "bad" behavior.

[@Valkyrie77]

Every time I hear a theist call in and say "he appreciates what they're doing" I roll my eyes. It would be like a Democrat calling Fox news and thanking them for "their hard work and excellent news reporting".

[@brianfergus839]

More like a Republican saying he “appreciates” being fact checked

[@Valkyrie77]

@@brianfergus839 yeah, that too.

[@casparuskruger4807]

@@brianfergus839 I'll bet you say "A better question would be....." a lot.

[@brianfergus839]

@@casparuskruger4807 only when it’s apt

[@casparuskruger4807]

@@brianfergus839 Yes of course. The way of the "one upper"

[@jeffgriese680]

Don't forget that God accepted human sacrifice and that it was pleasing to him. What a "nice" guy!

[@Z-one1000]

I swear I can hear Wes's brain trying to do mental acrobatics as he's trying to justify his views on God.

[@VaughanMcCue]

You might be correct, but the dude didn't get much opportunity to keep exposing his misunderstanding.

[@themanwithnoname1839]

​@@VaughanMcCuegood, dont wanna hear bullshit if i wanted that i would listen to presidential debates.....

[@Deadman1000]

​@@themanwithnoname1839he's called before and tried the same fallacious arguments. He has tried to do spew his bs so many times and Matt always owns him 😂

[@hermixtonen]

Wes is a rationalizing, cherry picking coward . He knows he is incorrect and he knows his career is based on a lie, but he is too cowardly to do a career change , which is an undertaking that takes some bravery

[@littlebitofhope1489]

Did he say whether he had a congregation or was a Lay Pastor?

[@hermixtonen]

@@littlebitofhope1489 excuse my ignorance about Lay Pastors . I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that pastors had congregations . Kind of like I assume teachers have students. What is a Lay Pastor? To answer your question directly - he did not mention having a congregation

[@jimbob3030]

@@hermixtonen In order to understand what a lay pastor does, you first need to ask the kids he lays with.

[@littlebitofhope1489]

@@hermixtonen It is a title for someone who can perform some of the duties of a Pastor, but they have not been ordained.

[@thebipolarpsychonaut4984]

​@@jimbob3030That's a good one😂

[@brentverc]

Matt's rant at 12:30 to 14 minutes has to one of the best, succinct and devastating criticisms of Christianity since the late great Christopher hitchens. Coming soon to a best of Matt Dilahunty reel and hopefully haunting the dreams of theists that still think.

[@emperorsgrandads]

It was magnificent! Think I'm going to have to edit it and keep it for posterity

[@heinz57channel39]

Uh, they think?

[@revwillyg6450]

Thanks for mentioning. That was absolutely brutal! Loved every second of it. Notice how Forrest has a lot less polite patience with a-holes now too?

[@mlthornton1]

It all comes down to an indignation against pain. From any perspective, why should God or the universe spare us from pain?

[@jamesaston410]

@@mlthornton1 well, if one believes in god and he allegedly created us (and loves us) then surely it’s obvious why we are indignant to pain. Why would an all loving creator wish pain on his creations?

[@edwebber679]

This is what drives me nuts about believers is that they must necessarily lie for their beliefs. If you have to lie to maintain a position...it's not a position worth holding.

[@taistelusammakko5088]

Its what i find incredibly sad. They just more or less choose their view of the world and then wrap their delusions around the actual truth. They are not interested in the truth at all, they want their lies

[@kentonbaird1723]

Worse. This one claims to be a pastor. This caller claims to lead and preach to the wretched, servile masses, while he lies and cowers in the face of scrutiny. This guy's supposed to be an authority, and he's utterly pathetic.

[@janpersell2259]

"Arguing with someone who has given up reason is like giving medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine

[@matthewphilip1977]

Paine forgot that reason requires premises and those premises need to be justified, and those premises... and so on. This is why the likes of Descartes and Wittgenstein failed to provide a foundation to philosophy.

[@johnsperry9494]

“It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine, and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.” - Thomas Paine The mind once enlightened cannot again become dark. -- Thomas Paine

[@matthewgordon3281]

I love how Matt and Forrest just tore this guy to pieces. Matt was having none of his cherry picking and equivocation.

[@CMA418]

It seems shortsighted to tear anyone to pieces, especially people who are gripped by fear and flawed beliefs, even more especially when they maintain a substantial collection of guns in their closets. AND they believe God is on their side. We need to learn to teach, not tear.

[@CMA418]

@@mr.tamoshanter50 Yes, let’s tell that to those same misguided people. That if they believe their opponent has becomes hostile, they should respond in kind. Because we all know what this world is missing most is more hostility…NOT! 😂💀

[@CMA418]

@@mr.tamoshanter50 And this is the same advice you would give to your adversary?

[@CMA418]

@@mr.tamoshanter50 I missed your question about debate. I’m not interested in debate unless the goal is to ascertain truth, if possible and not to “win”. All I’m asking is if that is your general advice for everyone: if you feel someone has become hostile, then being hostile with them is warranted. Would you give that advice to a Nazi? or Jihadist? A MAGA Republican?

[@CMA418]

@@mr.tamoshanter50 I think you've answered my question. Hostility is warranted in a particular context and only for particular individuals. I just disagree. I'm anti-hostility in general as it only leads to more of the same. I would encourage everyone to stay calm, be patient, and keep an open mind. But if I'm not willing to do that myself how can I expect others to do so. Note: I have more reasons than many to have disdain for Evangelicals and the like, my young exposure to it led me to decades of misery(glad to say not anymore), so I hope you don't think I'm trying to defend their worldview. I have heated back and forth with them same as we are now.

[@queuecee]

Isn't "open theism" when you are open to bringing other gods into the bedroom?

[@LettersAndNumbers300]

I thought it’s when god’s internals are available for anyone to see and reuse.

[@vertigo4236]

@Zeus has entered the chat

[@twowardrobeswardrobes1536]

Vishnu likes to watch

[@queuecee]

@@twowardrobeswardrobes1536 I am like god.

[@brucebaker810]

Or everyone can add to the code. And, in theory anyway, no one is making bank.

[@tomcooper6108]

Matt's fuqqing monologue is award winning 🎉

[@juanpabloduarte2001]

Amen

[@sobelou]

I generally love the interaction between Matt and Forrest. This clip is absolutely pure gold!

[@dh4521]

One of Matt's greatest monologues, outlying the shitty work of God. Awesome!

[@scambammer6102]

yeah that was vintage

[@nathanevans6277]

Truly awesome. And double wammied by Forrest quoting the sermon on the mount. Laugh? I don't think my trousers will ever dry. 😂

[@f1neman]

This!

[@edenkor]

Even before I heard it, I agreed with you.

[@mrcurly1147]

They must worship this god out of fear. I wouldn't want to share a universe with a prick like that god. Good thing I don't.

[@Praha175]

I don't understand how a person can cherry pick the parts they like and rationalize the parts they don't like away without realizing how much of a sham that is.

[@brucebaker810]

Almighty God said that part. Nnnno, not that part. Cuz God is Good. But sometimes He's Mysterious. So any not apparently Good thing...logic with me here... By Doyle's Law, only Mysterious is left! Church of The Good Parts, Cherrypick Mall, 1 Scotsman Way, Smallville.

[@johns1625]

"You will know them by their works. The mark of the beast will be upon them" - Proof covid vaccines are satanism "If a man lie with another man they both shall be put to death" - open to interpretation and not to be taken literally

[@alecynot.2016]

remember Americans voted for Trump in..2 elections. Just how dumb was that!

[@pavel9652]

Cognitive dissonance and/or confirmation bias.

[@brucebaker810]

@@TheSnoeedog I think I made it up on the spot. cheers mate! I also recall "cafeteria christian" and Jeff Dee's "the Big Book of Multiple Choice".

[@PapaWheelie380]

Remember that God is such a feckless leader that he couldn't even prevent a war in Heaven - last I read about heaven, it was supposed to be so awesome you couldn't do anything but WORSHIP him 24x7. Sounds like a case of the brochure being better than the real thing.

[@CharleswoodSpudzyofficial]

Can Forrest please sell his "God being a dick" highlighted bible? I'd buy it

[@skandragon586]

im curious of the other colors too... i saw a LOT of pink and blue

[@cindyc8335]

@@skandragon586I’m not sure if it was this episode, but he mentioned in chat he color codes; each color has a different meaning. I wish I remembered what he said they were. 🙁

[@irrelevant_noob]

14:20 offers a nice bird's eye view of them colours. :)

[@humbleevidenceaccepter7712]

Get a copy of _The Skeptic's Annotated Bible_ annotated by Steve Wells.

[@brucebaker810]

Can't just annotate a copyrighted work and republish. Some versions may not be copyrighted.

[@chrispysaid]

_Pastor complains that many people seem to be struggling with some dissonance_ _Pastor goes on to demonstrate his own dissonence by saying that God can't change the universe but he can do miracles_

[@irrelevant_noob]

*dissonance

[@ominous-omnipresent-they]

​@@irrelevant_noob Your pedantry is misguided.

[@Shellackle]

​@@ominous-omnipresent-theyYou made sure your response was picture perfect though lol so it was still effective to some degree

[@starfishsystems]

​@@ominous-omnipresent-they According to you. But according to me, he's correct.

[@ominous-omnipresent-they]

​@@starfishsystems It's not a matter of accuracy but rather the futility of concerning oneself with such trivial misspellings.

[@robertshepard2117]

"A way with words"? No, the truth flows easily because it's true and doesn't require mental and moral gymnastics to "testify" to reasonable,rational people.

[@ThodEssmann]

Seriously! I just hear Matt speaking simple straight forward facts and reason.

[@emperorsgrandads]

Brilliant summary and evisceration of the Bible from Matt.👋👋

[@alexanderweddle3948]

So, a supposed “god,” who tho not all-powerful (according to caller) can create a universe (according to caller) and raise Jesus from the dead (according to caller) but can’t lay down the ground rule that slavery is wrong way back while leading us step-by-step from whatever state we were in?

[@irrelevant_noob]

And the striking thing about the "leading" and the giving of rules and commandments and all that, is that he had just _freed_ those people FROM slavery. But apparently (according to what he said to Pharaoh) it was so that they may worship him better, not so that their society can flourish and their lives can be better. :-

[@lukesmithasada]

The same God made a dude from clay but then to make his "son" had to get a 13-year old girl pregnant. Weird, huh?

[@alexanderweddle3948]

@@lukesmithasada, all pretty weird. Twice “god”-made chromosomes in Adam would seem to me to be twice as divine as one set of “god”-made chromosomes apparently in Jesus. I guess one could write fan fiction to have a “god” replace most of Mary’s DNA with his/her/its/their own DNA. I don’t even know what it means for Jesus to be a son, unless this “god” has his own DNA. In what sense can DNA fabricated by a “god” be considered to make Jesus a son except by some adoption. But if adoption is meant, why would the “god” need to fabricate any DNA at all and not simply adopt him from Joseph and Mary. The whole story seems a bit, shall we say, far-fetched.

[@brucebaker810]

He will, eventually, update the ToS. Eventually.

[@KeplersDream]

Caller: _[persistently refuses to answer the question]_ Me: A spanking! A spanking! There's going to be a spanking tonight!

[@brucebaker810]

Was that Castle Anthrax? There are so many castles it's hard for one to keep them straight. Yes. One populated by over 100 young virgins is, perhaps, notable...

[@KeplersDream]

@@brucebaker810 It was indeed! Not a very nice name, is it? But the beds are warm, and very _very_ big...

[@the_eaglefan]

He almost seems like he is continually trying to convince himself.

[@davidsmith7653]

Every time a theist says "that's a good question" you know you're not going to get an answer because they know they don't have one.

[@gowdsake7103]

They never have one

[@brucebaker810]

"...but I can only answer bad questions. "

[@Vondoodle]

Ahhhh .. progressive fluffy theism 😂

[@MrCliffipoo]

pfft

[@hermixtonen]

Wes is a guy who buys into irrational concepts, as long as they have a label. “Open theism”, “dynamic inspiration” sit well with Wes, despite their lack of rational validity, simply because of the equation : “Wes wants them to be” + “They have labels” = “Wes accepts them despite their lack of rationality”. It is like MAGA just accepting Trump’s “I am covered by the Presidential Records Act”, even though the Presidential Records Act does the opposite of what Trump says it does. “MAGA wants it to be true” + “It has a label” = “MAGA accepts it despite the lack of rationality”

[@fomori2]

This post shows that you see politics like religion, where you virtue signal to others that you are are part of the correct cult. Trump is a POS, but if you were educated, and not just a mindless follower... again the religion/politics similarties... you would realize he was the SYMPTOM of two parties that dont offer ANYTHING to the regular people. The Democrats FAILED to impress for years as they have moved further and further right. The Republicans have failed even more as they have also moved further right. Trump came across as a populist that wanted to drain the swamp. It turned out that he was a fake populist that was part of the swamp. His biggest fault to the rich and powerful is that he is a buffoon and was exposing just how corrupt and incompetent the politicians in power were. So instead of using it as a wake up call to call out ALL politicians, you have been brainwashed into attacking ONE guy. You are a fool and sound EXACTLY like this theist caller, only because this is YOUR cult like behavior, you rationalize you are correct and the thesis is wrong. In the end, you are BOTH the same. I wish you would think for yourself, and while you can still hate Trump, speak out against those in power now that have distracted you successfully from their own problems.

[@brucebaker810]

Maga is also like Open Theism in that it's "you know...just the good stuff. Whatever your own private definition or specific reference... that's precisely what I meant".

[@stankatic8182]

Thank you Matt for showing Wes the "light " even through his selective blindness. That was EPIC !

[@soulcrewblue8629]

This pastor was epically schooled here, as we all know so many flunk, ignore, don't pay attention at being schooled.

[@2msystems740]

It always amazes me how intimately these cultist are convinced of and know the capabilities, character, needs, wants and desires of their imaginary boyfriend.

[@irrelevant_noob]

But as soon as they can't justify something, it's back to "mysterious ways". ;-)

[@brucebaker810]

Or, for nuns, imaginary husband.

[@SqwarkParrotSpittingFeathers]

As the Incredible Hulk once said, “Puny god,”

[@mrsirty3019]

Hulk always checks his sources too, he's the credible hulk

[@lancetrease1019]

Matt, I grew up Mormon, I took it very serious, I studied, prayed, went to church, volunteered for things, did service activities, had rolls and responsibilities in the LDS church, served a two-year mission, came home and got married in the LDS temple, and I truly believed. I used to be able to flip through the Bible backwards and forwards and quote from it chapter and verse. And could do the same with the other standard works for the lds cannon. The fact that I took it serious is what caused me to really start questioning the LDS doctrines. Then to start questioning the existence of God. Deconstructing, my belief was one of the most difficult and painful things I’ve experienced. I find it equally frustrating when I come across people who will not accurately represent what I know the belief system to be. They do this, as you know, to avoid facing the truth. One of the things that helped my reasoning and logical skills was watching your show and debates. I’m now one of those weirdos that watches debates for fun lol.

[@TorianTammas]

I dont get it how one gets past murdering all animals and humanity and ripping up a sumerian story and claims it was about Naoh.

[@lemonpeelangelfish]

Progressive Christianity = oxymoron

[@josepheridu3322]

Daily reminder that there is ZERO evidence human rights exist.

[@EattheApple666]

I love how the goal posts move constantly with the Religious.

[@josepheridu3322]

Daily reminder that there is ZERO evidence human rights exist.

[@AbsurdlyGeeky]

They use rocket-powered goalposts on all-terrain treads. Very modern, very cool.

[@Trapper4265]

Bravo, Matt! This is, by far, the best rebuttal ever!

[@49perfectss]

Dishonest as soon as they have to give up a bad idea. Typical theist.

[@ericpatrick9254]

Dillahunty at his absolute best.

[@TheDahaka1]

"God is still trying to change us" by torturing forever with no hope of redemption people that we cannot interact with anymore. What a great teacher XD

[@johnfox9169]

This is what Matt is THE best in the business at debunking Christianity. He knows his subject AND he's NOT afraid to call out his opponents. I love the expletives added for flavoring!!

[@themanwithnoname1839]

Hitchens, dawkins

[@themanwithnoname1839]

Also george carlin

[@bootskanchelsis3337]

" goodbye Jackass !" is my favorite part of this show.

[@FlyinZX10R]

Matt and Forrest are an honor to listen to. Both of you are incredibly intelligent and I always look forward to listening to you guys.

[@themanwithnoname1839]

An honor is stretching super hard my guy..... That sounds like some ass kissin right there...... Remember offense is taken, not given.... But saying its an honor is a massive stretch.....

[@ArcaneEther]

Forest should publish his "Valkai Annotated Bible", that contains the colored highlights and a brief blurb about each. That would be good tool.

[@mattpsyc]

I was going to ask where I can get a copy silly me

[@MegaLoucon]

This guy is definitely a pastor because he has no idea what he's talking about.

[@UnconventionalReasoning]

Any time a Christian says, "The Bible clearly shows..." they have lost the debate. [7:30]

[@philiphopper4885]

As an ex Christian, I would love a copy of Forrest’s Bible with his notes/highlights. It would actually be immensely useful!

[@robsol123]

This is why Matt Dillahunty is the main GOAT! One of his best moments for me, his wording is brilliant and spot on - genius! X

[@yoredeerleader]

Can’t a girl get a quick healthy snack without god’s paradise crashing down around her.

[@brucebaker810]

I'm old. I'm guessing. Barbie? How, btw, does one fawn appropriately over deerleader? It involves doe, doesn't it? It usually involves the bucks.

[@robtbo]

Yeah, so I’mma pastor and God’s pretty weak and stupid. Totally fallible and imperfect. Bad judge of character. Not really in control of anything. But TOTALLY worth praying to and worshiping…

[@buonafortuna8928]

That was classic Dillahunty.

[@joyuschak1681]

Hey Wes, Adam and Eve were created perfect and used their “free will” to introduce sin and imperfection into the world. They were not a work in progress. What Bible are you reading?

[@juiceboxx1916]

I think pastors shouldn't call in. When they do their whole world gets destroyed lol

[@jesuslopez-fe7dv]

Are animals punished by God when they give birth? Because I'm sure they (just like humans) also have pain when giving birth.

[@josephrusso7069]

These two are priceless together!

[@stevejpm1]

Love it when Matt gets angry.

[@jezah8142]

I'm worried he'll have another heart attack though. 😐😔

[@littlebitofhope1489]

You sure have a lot of love then.

[@stevejpm1]

NA..@@littlebitofhope1489

[@Z4r4sz]

I wouldnt call it anger, its more frustration and passion.

[@gowdsake7103]

Not angry, to the point savage and masterful

[@kmurphy0620]

I love Matt. As soon as I heard a pastor was calling about something not science related I knew he'd take the lead on the call

[@sonja4164]

This was a body slam...😖

[@davidmorse3190]

Watching this show is like watching a nature show about wolves chasing down and eviscerating their prey. Well done

[@wilazo77]

Wes tap dancing moves will echo into eternity 😂

[@huepix]

The biblical god, like all gods of scripture, is supernatural. And, as the supernatural isnt real, those gods ARE NOT REAL. Grow up. Beliefs and/or lack thereof, are irrelevant to reality

[@Doctor.T.46]

Matt must be the most articulate person I've ever encountered...and I've read the work of many philosophers. More power to your elbow Matt. I also have say that Forrest runs a close second. Thank you gentlemen for making my day.

[@gowdsake7103]

Listen to Hitchins he was vastly more articulate

[@Doctor.T.46]

@gowdsake7103 I've always been Hitchins' biggest fan, so no argument from me about that...But sadly Hitchins isn't around any more, so Matt, arguably steps up. You could equally make the argument for a number of atheists, Dawkins, Stephen Fry. In atheism we are lucky to have such articulate orators.

[@themanwithnoname1839]

By far matt isnt the best..... Think hes better at speaking than morgan freeman? Denzel washington? Both of which are amazing speakers and have been narrators before, never heard of matt being hired for narrations......

[@Doctor.T.46]

@themanwithnoname1839 What a bizarre comment. I wasn't claiming Matt was the best in the whole world...I was talking about the context of the debate being held. I thought you would have understood that.

[@AtamMardes]

The biggest sin is to tell people there's a better place after they die and ask them for donations.

[@elmolewis9123]

Seems as though Wes is doubting his life choices and is now trying to shoehorn reality with what he has been preaching. All of this without the critical thinking ability.

[@Mewse1203]

Do you know how insulting and racist it is for this dude to call the people back then animalistic? The people back then built some of the most fantastic art in the world. They have created things that even today we don't necessarily know how they are done. Not only that but to say God was trying to bring us out of being animalistic and barbarians ignores the fact that religious people have constantly fought the change from being barbaric. They used the Bible to justify slavery up to less than 200 years ago. They use the Bible today to justify oppression. I would say vast majority of the that's been made in our history has been IN SPITE OF religion and God, not because of.

[@TheGoofy1932]

😏 What a niche "god" you have constructed for yourself, Wes. 🤨 Worst use of the Calvin Ball ideology ever. 😉🤣

[@jiubboatman9352]

The god and the free-will argument is so lame. A mass murderer in a Las Vegas hotel will get his free-will respected by god while the hundreds he is shooting at do not. In these kinds of situations, god looks more like the devil than an all-loving, all powerful being.

[@berrywin]

I just love Matt's infallible bullshit detector!

[@philb4462]

Whilst I thought Matt and Forrest's responses were excellent, I would like to have heard more response from the caller. From about half way through they just steamrollered him.

[@Byrvurra]

Wes spent a lot of time complaining in the chat after this call ended.

[@sohu86x]

He should. Matt doesn't understand Liberal Christianity. It's his fault that Matt doesn't listen and forces his own very limited understanding of Christianity onto Wes. Open theism is a legimate position. Matt just rejects it because of his fundamentalistic upbringings. Shameful.

[@kenhammscousin4716]

Matt understood more in this call than pastor Wes has in a lifetime

[@qnaline]

Call in and defend this Sohu

[@littlebitofhope1489]

@@qnaline Who is Sohu?

[@qnaline]

There was another comment in here

[@AquaPeet]

This was a fantastic video, loved the parts where Matt and Forrest went on after the call. Very much appreciated Jimmy! Or editor!

[@LettersAndNumbers300]

Peet?

[@AquaPeet]

@@LettersAndNumbers300 Ja?

[@LettersAndNumbers300]

@@AquaPeet Oh je heet vast Peter ofzo...dacht een familielid gevonden te hebben.

[@julianrozental525]

Is there any place in the Old Testament where "God" does a moral thing? Not asking others to do something that may be moral (mostly quite the opposite), but doing something himself? I could find none!

[@DariusRoland]

I'm not going to disagree with Matt or Forrest, but the video title misled me to think that Forrest and Matt were having a disagremnt between themselves.

[@brittsheree85]

That whole run matt did at 12:50 Almost made me cry. I left church about four years ago and I feel better than I ever have But it made me think of all the hurt that happened to me in churches. That mistreatment stays with you Sometimes years after you feel like you've healed. When I started using my own brain and not relying on what other people told me to do or how to feel. I became a stronger person. I'll never go back. It makes me embarrassed that I drank that cool aid for so long. Thank you matt for speaking the truth! I've not seen a single Christian that has come on this show and had a decent argument or one at all. The blind leading the blind.

[@blitzball4lyfe823]

I’m right there with you. I was pretty much raised in church, went to bible college and everything only to realise after having nothing to show for it, I was made a fool of. I left the church and no lie, it’s been a lonely road that has been getting easier after each day. I’ve definitely made much progress but often find myself having difficulty falling back into indoctrinated patterns of thinking.

[@timothyirwin8974]

@@blitzball4lyfe823 Like making deals with an imaginary being?

[@blitzball4lyfe823]

@@timothyirwin8974 yes. Indoctrination is a powerful tool and isn’t overcome easily.

[@timothyirwin8974]

@@blitzball4lyfe823 Just ask the North Koreans who escaped. Get them when they are young. Kim is a god there.

[@timothyirwin8974]

Some literally drank Kool Aid and paid with their lives. Met some religious folks at a seminary in Fort Wayne, Indiana 25 years ago who knew Jim Jones and told me about his extreme Charisma.

[@manuelflores326]

EXCELENT MATT, EXCELENT👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👍

[@2ahdcat]

A...pastor? In the south? Never heard of such a thing. LOL. Waaaaiiit... (puts on the brakes) He DOESN'T think GAWD is all-powerful OR all-knowing? Do-what??? THAT is a first... He's the all You can eat buffet of pastors. He picks and chooses.

[@hdub8093]

Yikes! Matt tore Wes a new one, didn't he...😆

[@cshubs]

12:55 The start of the wonderful summary of the Bible that Matt gives us sometimes.

[@phoebeflanders]

Why anybody would accept that any of this was literally, historically true . . . I don't understand.

[@bodricthered]

Repetition and suppression of alternative narratives at a formative age, simple indoctrination methods. It's why it's dying slowly today.

[@samogden3885]

Indoctrination.

[@giannaleng1897]

The Bible is a thousand year old book of hearsay. It’s someone saying that something happened and someone else taking that and running with it. Repeat x 1000 and add a couple translations. Any other source that was produced this way would be viewed with suspicion but apparently, it’s fine cause its the Bible and it can’t possibly have been written by liars and mistranslated in anyway.

[@GoofballLOL]

The tyrade at 12:23 was fucking nuclear, oh my god 😂 I love it

[@ToHoldNothing]

Sounds like Wes is just advocating some form of either dispensationalism or covenant theology, both of which basically have God playing some long game with humanity as pawns

[@chrisjohnston5401]

One of your all time best Matt

[@Wilhelm-100TheTechnoAdmiral]

But it's not really cherry picking when I call it open theism. OK, thanks for clearing that up. 😂

[@matthew6427]

Poor guy, thought he had a couple of good points, then got owned 😂

[@AlDunbar]

Matt was pretty hard on the caller, but deservedly so.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

I apologize to the regulars for sounding like a stuck record but for any video concerning morality I say this. From what we know and have observed we most likely naturally developed morals and ethics as instincts as we evolved as a species. No gods needed or shown to be involved whatsoever. 😊

[@lrs0620]

Exactly. I don’t need a god to tell me that murder is morally wrong.

[@IanM-id8or]

If God is not all-powerful & all-knowing, in what way is he a god?

[@ihatespam2]

Just in the convenient, cherry picked ways he needs to still believe.

[@brucebaker810]

Well He has the God parking space. ..

[@brucebaker810]

Wes seemed unsure about the "created the universe" part too. Jehovah is Big sit in corner Teddy Bear. And Jesus is the smaller portable day to day teddy bear?

[@josephbelisle5792]

This is embarrassing. As with all these shows. All of the theist arguments fail. Each and every one refuses to answer the question that inevitably comes up that if answered would prove their failure in their belief system. They can't. If they could be honest and truthful with themselves they would accept the failure and learn learn from it. But they can't. They cling to their twisted attempts at logic.

[@flux6472]

I actually think Wes is on the cusp of becoming an atheist. Not sure if he will be publicly since he is a pastor but I wouldn't doubt it.

[@warren52nz]

Here's something about the size of the Universe. If you started counting 3 numbers per second and didn't stop for anything then in 10.7 years you'd get to 1 billion. There are ~100 billion stars (so 1,000 years of counting) in our galaxy and about 100 billion galaxies (give or take). And that's only the part of the Universe that we can see limited by the speed of light. And if that's not mind blowing enough, at the speed of light (7.2 times around the Earth in 1 second), it would take 4 years to get to the nearest star!!! Now tell me that God made that in 6 days just for us so I can get my daily laugh.

[@Drums-ve8on]

You don’t mess with Matt. He will tear your apologies to shreds.

[@Rob-fc9wg]

DILLAHUNTED!

[@markhaunert5029]

​@@Rob-fc9wg😮😅

[@karlb10024]

please, please tell me you all have watched tim minchin, a witty, pianist who writes atheist songs with all the same themes. so worth watching.

[@pub652]

I love Tim! Everytime i get frustrated about some religious shit, i am going to listen to ' Thank you god' and instandly i feel much better.😀

[@karlb10024]

I just discovered him about 3 weeks ago. I keep wondering if matt and jimmy have listened. perhaps they could use his stuff as theme songs.@@pub652

[@ookekklibarianbornagain6708]

Matt has said he's a fan of Tim's.

[@maggiebarrett7300]

@@pub652love that song - it brilliantly exposes the lunacy of ‘miracles’

[@karlb10024]

good to hear. I only discovered Tim about 3 weeks ago, so I want to spread the gospel of his genius. @@ookekklibarianbornagain6708

[@anthonyhay3063]

I swear that there’s not a single person on this planet that can debate, nor even come close to Matt in anything about religion and god. Matt can argue my case before anybody. This is a badass dude. Kick ass Matt.

[@StevenWolfe-lx8js]

I miss Hitch

[@matthewaustin9790]

Matt ran away from Andrew Wilson in debate

[@matthewaustin9790]

"Dear God, I know I am a sinner. I want to turn from my sins, and I ask for Your forgiveness. I believe that Jesus Christ is Your Son. I believe He died for my sins and that You raised Him to life. I want Him to come into my heart and to take control of my life. I want to trust Jesus as my Savior and follow Him as my Lord from this day forward. In Jesus' Name, amen." Did you pray this prayer?

[@StevenWolfe-lx8js]

@@matthewaustin9790 and w Wilson is a fraud

[@StevenWolfe-lx8js]

@@matthewaustin9790 is your god on KZbin. ? Would Jesus be on social media? Or would he be out helping the poor .

[@richardhedd3080]

Most theists don't think about what they believe because they know it doesn't make sense and I love when Matt takes that point and throws it back at them.

[@toneg3768]

Lol well I thought Jesus was the fix that came to save us from what Adam did, according to Paul. I just don't recall Jesus ever mentioning anything about Adam, or the reason he was here was to fix original sin. Oh well, I'm sure there's an apologetic for this that you gotta take on faith. 🤷🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️

[@RoamingHeathen]

I love Matt’s anger … but I wish he would let the calmer hosts get to a more productive conversation

[@redplumptomato]

11:10 When the action starts. Prepare for the best rant you've not heard in a long long time. 14:10 end of rant