Pastors' Point of View Episode 81. Is the Olivet Discourse for the Church or Israel? Part 2

[@blessedbeliever8725]

These PPOV sessions are totally AWESOME. This I believe is the best mode to teach out there I’ve seen.

[@robertpittman4053]

What a contribution to understanding the context of the subject that has caused a lot of confusion, for as long as I can remember (over 60 yrs)!

[@billrundell2097]

I believe in the Blessed Hope. When He comes, we go. I look for the over taker and not the undertaker. There is a presence of darkness to those that believe in the Post Tribulation. I also believe that a spiritual darkness exists for anyone not anticipating the return of our REDEEMER. It is the Joy we share. I can not contain it.

[@lizziegillings5380]

Absolutely brilliant brilliant teaching bless you Andy and Jim

[@billrundell2097]

This is the first video to explain Mathew 24 correctly within the context of when recorded. This is a place where POST TRib belief make a huge error. How is the church to flee to Judea. or Our travel not be on the Sabbath. This is not a problem for the church.

[@billrundell2097]

@@questioneverything1646 You never gave an example but only an accusation.

[@billrundell2097]

@@questioneverything1646 Those not expecting for Jesus to come for His bride, will not go. The Rapture is the Blessed Hope. With out being caught-up into the clouds for the wedding feast, and have to receive the Wrath of God in REV 6, what type of hope is that. God is not going to beat up his bride.

[@ninnyknots6246]

@@billrundell2097 hello Bill, you have been defending the faith so well. The rapture is indeed the blessed hope and only pretrib fits the criteria. One thing I want to correct, every believer, regardless of behaviour or even false beliefs, will be taken up to Christ at the rapture because Jesus died for the sin of the whole world. I don't know where Andy would explain this, but I've reason to expect he agrees with this.. The thing is, the Corinthians were believers but behaved like the fallen. Believers are clothed in the righteousness of Christ, not our own. Jesus took our unrighteousness onto Himself and gave us His own, the purpose of the cross. It is at the Bema or Judgment Seat we will gain or lose the rewards set up for us in heaven. Some will be saved as "brands plucked from the burning" and shall be "heirs of God" but not "heirs of Christ" failing to enter into the 1000 year reign of Christ on EARTH. What we do and say now, will determine how God uses us during the Kingdom of God on earth. All of us will go to heaven where Christ has prepared a room for us in the Fathers house. Forgive me for failing to supply Scriptures, I'm rather low on energy. I'm sure Andy will correct me where he doesn't agree. Maranatha!

[@billrundell2097]

@@ninnyknots6246 What we believe about the Rapture changes the way we live our Christian life. Those preaching Post trib are changing Revelation. . REV 5: 9-10. Saints are reported in Heaven, before the wrath that starts in Rev 6:1 For thou wast slain and redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation. And hast made us unto our God, Kings and priest and we shall reign on the earth. . Post Trib believe have to over look the above Scripture in Revelation. The say it is not sequencial and make changes. A special warning to them at the end of Revelation that you are well aware of. . To the preachers of Post Trib I believe that they are in spiritual darkness and are wolves in sheep clothing. The are aware of the Pre trib belief and still preach the false doctrine post Trib. I was in a POST TRib church for 20 years, always confused about how to decide. Also post Trib have no Blessed Hope. How can Post TRib belief encourage any new believe? . I look forward to the over taker and not the under taker. When Jesus comes we go. Discouragement for the Post Trib believer. They put a stumbling block to their church members and new believers.

[@ninnyknots6246]

@@billrundell2097 I agree with you Bill. Knowing about Jesus doesn't save a person from sin, even if a person lives a perfect life. Its believing in Jesus to save that results in being justified. It's similar with the rapture, knowing isn't the same as believing. Not believing the pre-trib rapture doesn't make a person lost in any way, they have been deceived and likely will lose out at the Bema? Likewise believing in pre-trib doesn't mean that people will live an obedient life before God. Like believing in Jesus doesn't mean people will live a Word obeying life, the same goes for the pre-trib issue. Jesus said to BELIEVERS "IF you love me, you will obey Me" the same is with the non believers in Pre-trib, IF they love Him - but!!! Maranatha!

[@davidburgin4436]

Excellent Pastor's Point of View ! Thank you for teaching clarity in the scriptures with proper Bible Interpretation. Context, context, context.

[@Arx9845]

Thanks for your superb teaching Pastors.

[@warrenrodgers7544]

Good video tyvm. We all must do our part and spread the good news

[@marcyoverby3120]

So glad i have a good understanding of this SCRIPTUREs.. Thanks..really didn't know how to rightly divd these scriptures. Now i do.. Blesdings from MN.

[@lawrencemckenziepieterse39]

Excellent lesson, stay blessed, from Cape Town, South Africa.

[@andymenchaca1648]

I'm pre trib. I see the discourses very clear thanks to you. I listened to this guy named Jacob Preusch, a guest speaker at John Hallers church. This guy taught well but he debunked many if not all preachers speaking of pre trib. Very confusing listening to both strong point of views. Thank you for quickly posting a counter video and not putting anyone down because were all brothers.

[@marcyoverby3120]

The word of God says a house divided will not stand.. One od of Satan's Tricks.

[@ninnyknots6246]

I have great sympathy for Jacob Prasch! There is something wrong, I don't know what; other than his obvious illnesses. He has, in the past, been a trooper against error in the UK, but now... too many are encouraging him to behave uncouthly, certain ones are out to bring him down, I don't know what's true or not, and I don't care because ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Maranatha!

[@doedeer6272]

thank you so much Andy Woods. Ive been a silent watcher for a while now..

[@SavedInANanosecond.]

Doctor Woods, thank you for such a clear explication of the Scriptures. It seems as though there is a correlation between those who believe you can lose your salvation and that you must do certain works to maintain your salvation and those who also believe in the "pre wrath" & "post tribulation" rapture. Biblically undiscerning on many levels and probably most, I would venture to say, are not saved themselves...

[@ninnyknots6246]

@@questioneverything1646 SO spiteful! and obviously belched from the renderings of one JP - which definitely doesnt stand for Justice of the Peace by any stretch of the immagination. Andy won't defend himself so I'll tell you straight that "not a dr." the not so learned Jacob Prasch, is wallowing in jealousy of a man who indeed DOES have a hard worked for doctorate. Hear me Denise, you are seriously wrong and guilty of repeating a lie and encouraging gossip. Shame!

[@ninnyknots6246]

@@questioneverything1646 name calling doesn't bother me, it won't bother Andy, I'm sure of that, what does bother me is all the venom you like to spew. Jesus told us to love one another, to be gracious, merciful...it is to your shame you refuse to disagree amicably. That behaviour grieves, even quenches the Holy Spirit. Does that explain your spite, have you driven Him away, has the Father given you over to your unholy conversation? 1John1:9

[@ninnyknots6246]

@@questioneverything1646 just did a bit of fact finding. Knowing that Andy attended Dallas Theological Seminary from 2003 to 2009 from where he achieved his hard earned PhD which he got in 2009. I checked to see if Jacob Prasch was correct that it wasn't accredited. DTS most definitely IS accredited. From 1969 with the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. Then in 1994 by the Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada. So JP is WRONG. Andy achieved his PHD after six years of hard work supported by his wife and their little girl from the ACCREDITED Dallas Theological Seminary of whom, I have heard Jacob speak with favour. In his last year Andy became employed by the newly formed Chafer Theological Seminary who are yet to become accredited, it takes time for accreditation but meanwhile The New Mexico Department of Higher Education authorises Chafer to grant degrees under their religious exemption. Chafer has a "transfer agreement" between accredited Grace School of Theology and Talbot School of Theology (California). It appears that Jacob linked Andy with Chafer and jumped to the wrong conclusion as is his wont. Let this be a warning to check the facts before dispensing judgmental gossip.

[@ninnyknots6246]

@@questioneverything1646 I believe I remember Jacob stating that he is self taught. Knowing people who are trained in the languages he has asked their opinion and advice to see if he is correct in his analysis. FYI dear old Jacob is something of a teller of tall tales, maybe he gets a bit muddled? - KZbin Catalyst Counselling Graham Baldwin "Jacob Prasch and Moriel Under Investigation" .

[@monicapoole2115]

I listened to this for a second time. Such a good teaching explaining the views on the rapture. The pre wrath, post trib, mid trib, all of these have one point in common, they focus on a work based salvation, the Christian being good or keeping faithful. This drags Christianity to the same level as other Faiths. So that alone debunks each of these false interpretations.

[@lynnlink4629]

Listen to you daily. HOLY BIBLE TRUTH. Praise GOD.

[@paulmcwhorter]

Many got Christ's first coming wrong, and hence we should not be surprised if many people get his second coming wrong as well. The concern I have with this video is the implication that I need a seminary professor to explain when Christ was speaking to me (the church) verses speaking to Israel. I do not see where Christ ever distinguished between the church and Israel, so I guess we are left to guess or seek professional help to know whether or not His words apply to us. Should we throw out the Sermon on the Mount as well? In the olivet discourse He was speaking to His disciples. If we hence say that he was speaking to Israel, then what other of His words do we discard? Not a path I want to go down. There is one vine. Some are natural branches, some are grafted branches, and some branches will be trimmed. Yet there is one vine, and thankfully I am grafted into that vine. From many who would preach the pre-tribulation rapture comes the message that those in Christ will not suffer tribulation or persecution. It is believed in much of the western church that we will never face persecution. The heart breaking thing is our brothers and sisters in Christ are being butchered right now in places like Nigeria, and many other places on earth. Where was their rapture? I am not here to argue the finer points of end times eschatology, but to say that as Christians we should be prepared for tribulation. We should be prepared to face death, and not deny His name. We should be prepared to sacrifice all for Him. God bless.

[@ninnyknots6246]

Paul, have you studied Romans chapters 9 to 11. These may help you to recognise the distinction between the Church and Israel imo. Maranatha!

[@paulmcwhorter]

Yes, indeed I have read those, but also the entire bible, cover to cover, probably 30 or 40 times over my life. And certainly lots of interesting mysteries to ponder there. My issue is when you tell people that Christians will not face persecution because God will spare them before things get bad on earth, which is what the pre-tribulation rapture tells people. I spend a great deal of time ministering in very remote parts of Africa, and the issue is dispensationalists come over and tell people that if they believe, that they will not face tribulation or persecution. The things they are facing is already as bad as what is described will happen in the tribulation. Where is there rapture? Does God only spare rich westerners? Again, not wanting to quibble over a secondary point, but really wish people would stop coming to Africa on short term mission trips and tell people they will be spared from tribulation. It is not a big deal that people might get end times eschatology wrong, but it is a big deal if people are deceived that believers will not face tribution and great tribulation while on the earth. God bless.

[@ninnyknots6246]

@@paulmcwhorter if it is as you say, then that is a ridiculous and irresponsible thing to say. The Bible, nor Pre-trib teach this because Jesus plainly said that "in this world you WILL have tribulation,, but fear not for I have overcome the world" John? However, it is a fact that the Church is not destined for God's wrath - His judgment upon the world to try it. This is for earth dwellers i.e. unbelievers alone. The Church is said to have her citizenship in heaven. Unlike Israel, God hasn't given the Church a land of their own on earth. So before the Time of Jacobs Trouble lasting a limited 7 years in two parts, the Church is removed to her heavenly residence. She will be in heaven, all of us, good, bad and indifferent before THE (definite article) Tribulation of Daniels 70th Week begins. I can personally vouch for the fact that Jesus spoke truly when He warned us, in John (I think) that on this earth His people will face tribulations. But the Church will not face, or go through, the specifically timed event known as THE Tribulation of Daniels 70th Week. Daniel 9. I don't know of any legitimate Pre-trib teacher who says believers won't go through tribulations, or troubles in our lives. To teach differently is to call Jesus a liar. Perhaps I should add that there is to be many thousands of people martyred for faith in Christ during The Tribulation. Entering The Tribulation they will be unbelievers having missed the Rapture of Christ's Body, His Bride, the Church. At the Rapture the Church is complete, no more can join that company. Hearing the Gospel being preached by either Elijah, the Two Witnesses, the 14400 and the Gospel Angel etc. some will put their faith in Christ to become born again. This will be a distinct group who will "come out of Great Tribulation" so are known as The Tribulation Saints, but not members of the Church, she is in heaven facing the Bema Seat judgment of WORKS, then being married to Christ before The Father just as Jesus promised in John 1 i. e "Let not your hearts be troubled... I will prepare a house for you... I will come again and receive you to Myself so that where I am, you will be also" Sorry to go on so long, I'm trying to cover all bases where confusion may have come from in Africa? Andy has video teaching on Daniel and Revelation to explain properly. Have you tried contacting Andy, or Jim. I'm certain they would want to clarify this important issue. Maranatha!

[@paulmcwhorter]

Yes, you have very nicely summarized dispensationalism, which I am very familiar with. To make it work, one is required to make certain gymnastic maneuvers with scripture, like going through and saying when Jesus is talking to his disciples, and when he is talking to "Israel". By that same argument, we would need to not just throw out the olivet discourse (as far as the church goes), but to throw out all of Matthew, since he was almost always speaking to jews. You end up with an incredibly complex system where one must carefully decipher when we as the church should listen to Jesus, and when we should decide he was not talking to us (Even though clearly he was giving advice to His disciples, who were in fact believers, and hence were in fact the church). Some things to think about . . . what if he was speaking to the church? Matthew 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Wow, the elect are gathered AFTER the tribulation. I sure do consider myself part of the elect. So again, with dispensationalism, interpretation becomes extremely tedious, as we have to figure out when the "elect" is Israel and when "elect" is Christians. Then lets take a simple, straightforward look at the rapture verse: 1 Cor 15:50 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Does this verse mention timing? Yes! The rapture happens at the Last Trumpet. How many trumpets will there be after the last one? Answer, NONE, it was the last trumpet. So, lets go look at seven trumpets in Revelation: The seventh trumpet in revelation, the last trumpet, is at the end of the tribulation. Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” So, Christ returns to rule at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trumpet, which matches 1 Cor. 15.51 Dispensationalism requires us to conclude that the "Last Trumpet" is not the last trumpet since there will be at least 7 more trumpet blasts AFTER the Last Trumpet. Then lets look at 2 Thes 2: Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Christ does not return until AFTER the antichrist is revealed, and sits as God in the temple of God. Then lets look at revelation 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. This is describing the "First Resurrection" and this is clearly after the tribulation as it describes the tribulation martyrs being resurrected at the "First Resurrection" which must therefore be AFTER the tribulation. Hence, dispensationalism requires there to be a mass resurrection BEFORE the "First Resurrection" At least 7 trumpet blasts AFTER the Last Trumpet The Gathering of the Saints BEFORE the Antichrist is revealed by sitting in the temple as God. We must consult seminary experts to determine when Jesus was talking to the believers, and when he was not, even when he was speaking to his disciples. I just can not do that much damage to scripture. Would really invite people, just for fun, just once . . . take off your dispensational glasses, read the Bible cover to cover, starting with a blank sheet of paper. Would you conclude that the church is spared the tribulation, if you had not been taught (dare I say programmed) to think that way? (Also note, yes we are spared from God's Wrath, but dispensationalism assumes Wrath and Tribulation are the same thing) Brother, we can fellowship and be friends and worship together and have different views on end times eschatology. I am not sure anyone really has it figured out yet, as Daniel said, some of these things would be "sealed" until then end. God bless.

[@ninnyknots6246]

@@paulmcwhorter have you considered when Paul wrote Corinthians? He cannot have known, or written about the trumpets of Revelation because Christ didn't reveal the revelation to John until AFTER Paul's letters. It is obvious to me that being Jews they fully understood what "last trumpet" Paul referred to. I forget the Jewish name now, it was something like "teruah" but two words. I'll have to leave it at that as my memory is hazy so I don't want to cause confusion. Have you considered what gifts of the Holy Spirit He has blessed the Church with? Addressing your concern about being unable to know everything written in God's Word, He has given us Pastor-Teachers. Obviously God knows we need help to understand the more difficult Scriptures. Peter said as much when speaking of Paul's God given teaching ministry, that "at times his teaching can be difficult to understand". God has blessed us with things a child can grasp easily. For example I understood the Gospel of Jesus Christ before I started school at 5yrs. A young aunt of around 14 yrs shared her knowledge with me - she taught me what I didn't know. She in turn was taught by her Sunday School teacher. I won't labour the point, but to stress we all need the directives of teachers provided by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who supposes they do not require teachers is foolish and prideful thinking they know better than God. We start our Christian life on milk, steadily we are weaned onto sloppy solids advancing (or stagnating) until we can feast on the solid meat of God's Word. In the old Testament the Prophet spoke of a river being at first shallow to paddle in, then to the knees, the hips until waters to swim in. That's our progression in understanding Scripture helped by God's gift of Pastor-Teachers. Its strange to me that you find dispensationalism puzzling. I was a dispensationalist long before I knew its name. It was two Postribbers in discussion who told me that's what I was. Afterward I began to study the subject under the teaching ministry of Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, truly a blessed gift of God. Time for tea! God bless and Maranatha!

[@sylviaschneider5335]

Thank you for your insight on end time events. Back in the 80's I faithfully listened to Jack Van impe. I learned quite a lot from him and Rexella. Out dated now, only because we see things more clearly now, since the day is approaching.

[@billrundell2097]

YES YES. Mathew 24 is not for the Church. It is not about the Rapture. It is about the second coming to the Earth. The rapture was still a mystery until Paul explains it.

[@lawrencemckenziepieterse39]

Totally agree with you Bill, PEOPLE ARE NOT RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH. 2TIM 2:15 stay blessed From Cape Town, South Africa.

[@billrundell2097]

@@questioneverything1646 The church was non existent at the recording of Mathew 24. Also the Rapture was still a Mystery had not been revealed by Paul. In Mathew 24 is written about the Second coming to the Earth and not the Rapture up into the Clouds. The sign of Jesus coming is not the rapture. The Rapture is not spoken as a 1st coming or 2nd coming. Second coming he returns with the Saints, The Rapture is when he takes away the Saints.

[@ninnyknots6246]

@@questioneverything1646 "Dispensation" is an English translation of the koine Greek oikonomia. Other word used is "economy" ... it literally means "God's housekeeping" how He manages each age in the same way that a husband and wife does when first married. Their first child means a difference in how they run their household. When children start school their dispensation alters to fit another time table and so on. God's oikonomia fits how things had to alter after the fall. Again after the flood and so on. Three d ispensations are mentioned in the New Testament, but it is obvious there are probably 7 or 8. The millennium will be the final of God's order. Dispensationalists acknowledge God's various stages of economy. Israel and the Church are separate entities, God deals with them differently. It's plainly revealed in Scripture so is part of the WHOLE council of God, disregarding it results in a false doctrine.

[@janalexander8160]

I’d like to add that Dr. Rob Congdon does an excellent job of talking about the 3 groups that God calls His “elect”, or ‘“chosen”. He does this in his series on disputing the doctrine called “TULIP”. That the Calvinists believe. It’s the best explanation I’ve heard. He says that God calls three groups His elect in the scripture.......angels, Israel, and The church. It’s a collective term. The nature of these three groups is that they were “chosen” to serve Him. You can hear Dr. Congdon;s messages here on UTUBE. it really cleared up the whole “election” misunderstanding that the Calvinists have.

[@vdoniel]

God bless this accur9 teaching.

[@jlo1372]

Love your videos! Where i live there are no disp. Churches, sadly. My high school son approached me recently and would like to do a daily devotional this summer, do you have any suggestions @Andy Woods ?

[@workaholic5318]

In addition to the fact that the Bible is the "owners manual" for believers, it is a historical and prophetic narrative, His Story if you will. Read in a narrative fashion, the story defeats the pre-wrath, post-trib, mid-trib and the rest of the generic trib views. So far as I can tell imminence is the key word here. The majority of the Bible is a history of the Jewish nation, in particular the pre-history laid out in Daniel leading up to the coming of the Messiah. The only divergence from this is the "grafting in" of the Church. The admonition that Paul gives about not being haughty towards the Jewish people is quite poignant here. We can be taken out as easily as we are grafted in. These "alternate" views regarding the catching up of the Church smacks of replacement theology as the Church impinging on the time that the Lord deals with his unilaterally covenanted people seems presumptuous. How sad that people must create controversy in this manner.

[@jorma226]

Yes, there is no pre trib rapture in Mtt 24. Only problem now is to find a clear scripture where it IS mentioned.

[@BIGLOVE4TRUTH]

“..not quoting Jack Van Impe.” 😂

[@SharonofChrist]

Thanks so much once again Pastor Andy and Pastor Jim. I've been blessed by your teachings of the pre-tribulation rapture, in which side I definitely am, if we are to take sides as such. I also had a thought that came to me recently which I feel is from the Holy Spirit. Which is that what is the purpose of any Rapture at all, if not to take the believers away from the times of trouble. Why would a rapture be necessary at the end, when the tares will be separated from the wheat at that point anyway, so what would be the need for the Church to be raptured at all? Answer, no need whatsoever. Yet the Bible clearly teaches about the Rapture. The pre-wrathers believe that the Church would be here up until the middle of the 7 years, but the Bible clearly says that the believers would be removed before the Antichrist is revealed, so I don't agree with that. Pre-trib rapture is the only one that makes sense according to the Bible's words, exactly as you say.

[@davidwhite8500]

You need to read Matthew 24 verses 34-35 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.36 “But concerning THAT day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[b] but the Father only.What day is Jesus talking about? You have to go to the previous verse. He is talking about when Heaven and Earth pass away. We can not know this since we do not know how long Satan will be let loose after the 1,000 years are completed. Only God will know that day. This is not talking about the Rapture because He is addressing the Jews.

[@questioneverything1646]

Oh please Andy Woods!! I implore you to debate Jacob Prasch!! Please debate him! Oh please!! Please debate a REAL Bible expositor!!